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Big Birdwatcher

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  • paull01
    About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn t
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 8, 2013
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      About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.

      I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.

      The stats look like:
      Length 38ft
      LOA close to 40ft
      Beam 9ft
      Draft cb up 16in
      Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
      Not sure about weight or Displacement

      I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.

      Paul
      Seattle
    • c.ruzer
      Ida s Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose. Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 28, 2013
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         Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.

         

        Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!

         

        Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.

         

        By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?



        ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:

        About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.

        I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.

        The stats look like:
        Length 38ft
        LOA close to 40ft
        Beam 9ft
        Draft cb up 16in
        Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
        Not sure about weight or Displacement

        I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.

        Paul
        Seattle
      • Leigh
        Now there s an idea! A really really bad one but an idea none the less. Bearing in mind that scaling is a fixed percentage change in length , is squared in
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 28, 2013
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          Now there's an idea! A really really bad one but an idea none the less. Bearing in mind that scaling is a fixed percentage change in length , is squared in area and cubed in volume. 

          So increasing a boat by 15% in length will result in a 44% increase in material weight 65% change in interior volume. Want to guess what that's done to the ballast ratio,stability curves,hull stiffness etc? 

          Pay a designer to change the plans or draw up a new boat. It's a lot cheaper than an upside down boat or a broken boat.  There's many good reasons why forty foot boats don't look like scaled up 20ft boats. 

          Leigh Ross 

          484 464 1575 C
          610  624 1730 H


          On Oct 28, 2013, at 6:17, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:

           

           Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.

           

          Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!

           

          Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.

           

          By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?



          ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:

          About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.

          I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.

          The stats look like:
          Length 38ft
          LOA close to 40ft
          Beam 9ft
          Draft cb up 16in
          Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
          Not sure about weight or Displacement

          I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.

          Paul
          Seattle

        • sirdarnell
          Wouldn t a big birdwatcher be a Whalewatcher - design #561? ... Ida s Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose. Interesting big Birdwatcher
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 28, 2013
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            Wouldn't a big birdwatcher be a Whalewatcher - design #561?



            ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.

             

            Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!

             

            Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.

             

            By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?



            ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:

            About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.

            I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.

            The stats look like:
            Length 38ft
            LOA close to 40ft
            Beam 9ft
            Draft cb up 16in
            Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
            Not sure about weight or Displacement

            I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.

            Paul
            Seattle
          • c.ruzer
            No, not a whalewatcher type. See in Photos for the original poster Paul s (Seattle) illustrations. ... Wouldn t a big birdwatcher be a Whalewatcher - design
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 29, 2013
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               No, not a whalewatcher type. See in Photos for  the original poster Paul's (Seattle) illustrations.



              ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <sirdarnell@...> wrote:

              Wouldn't a big birdwatcher be a Whalewatcher - design #561?



              ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.

               

              Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!

               

              Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.

               

              By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?



              ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:

              About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.

              I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.

              The stats look like:
              Length 38ft
              LOA close to 40ft
              Beam 9ft
              Draft cb up 16in
              Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
              Not sure about weight or Displacement

              I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.

              Paul
              Seattle
            • c.ruzer
              You re not up to speed with the plan Leigh, either the ESC or BW series, sorry. ... Now there s an idea! A really really bad one but an idea none the less.
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 29, 2013
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                 You're not up to speed with the plan Leigh, either the ESC or BW series, sorry.



                ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <Leighpilot@...> wrote:

                Now there's an idea! A really really bad one but an idea none the less. Bearing in mind that scaling is a fixed percentage change in length , is squared in area and cubed in volume. 

                So increasing a boat by 15% in length will result in a 44% increase in material weight 65% change in interior volume. Want to guess what that's done to the ballast ratio,stability curves,hull stiffness etc? 

                Pay a designer to change the plans or draw up a new boat. It's a lot cheaper than an upside down boat or a broken boat.  There's many good reasons why forty foot boats don't look like scaled up 20ft boats. 

                Leigh Ross 

                484 464 1575 C
                610  624 1730 H


                On Oct 28, 2013, at 6:17, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:

                 

                 Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.

                 

                Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!

                 

                Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.

                 

                By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?



                ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:

                About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.

                I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.

                The stats look like:
                Length 38ft
                LOA close to 40ft
                Beam 9ft
                Draft cb up 16in
                Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
                Not sure about weight or Displacement

                I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.

                Paul
                Seattle
              • Chief Redelk
                I am first to admit I am am amature home boat designer..Years worth but STILL NOT GOOD enough to design a boat going out to sea.. SO far I have been lucky
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 29, 2013
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                  I am first to admit I am am "amature" home boat designer..Years worth
                  but STILL NOT GOOD enough to design a boat going out to sea..

                  SO far I have been lucky and I have cheated quite a bit. In fact I
                  look at boats pick out what I like about one and another and sort of
                  put parts together..My first design was a "Cheat".. Back in 1985 there
                  was a cute little book ( SADLY NOW GONE ) in our library that was
                  about boat building and had some plans. The book was very old and IF I
                  had been Dishonest I would have "lost it" and paid for it. BUT being
                  honest it's Really LOST now...What I did was pick out a small boat
                  plan and draw it on graph paper..

                  It was 8 feet long and 24 inches at the bow with 12 degree flair on
                  the sides..I SCALED parts of it up..

                  I moved the bow out to 30 inches at the bottom..moved the aft end out
                  to 40 inches at the bottom. With the flair I managed to get 44 inches
                  at the rail on the stern and 36 at the bow..

                  She turned out to be a cute little Jon Boat type boat with that flat
                  bottom.. All in all I did a good job on my FIRST boat and attempt to
                  change a design...BUT...

                  I felt I made a mistake on the side boards..I cut them Exactly like
                  the plans..12 inches tall...Having the eye of an artist I stood back
                  and looked at my newly designed boat and noticed ONE BIG PROBLEM...The
                  sides SHOULD have been 14 inches NOT 12.. That 2 inches makes a BIG
                  difference on a Small boat..Adding to the sides is easy but instead I
                  sold the boat for 125 dollars to a man who wanted it like it was.. A
                  few months later he and his wife ( it would carry quite a bit of
                  weight) were in it and she leaned over, dropped a rail and swamped the
                  boat..Luckily they were in shallow water, both picked the boat up,
                  dumped the water got inside and paddled home.. They fed the boat to
                  the termites..

                  One day I was looking at an 8 foot scow intended for protected waters
                  with some boat wakes and waves once in a while.... I did the math to
                  double her....

                  IF I had simply doubled the size here is what the new boat would look like..

                  It would be 16 feet long...64 inches wide..(48 - 50 would have been
                  more practical) with sides 32 inches high..(18 -20 would have been
                  more practical)...This is on a small boat.. What if we double that
                  boat again..

                  We now have a 32 feet long boat...width is now expanded to over 10.5
                  feet. ,,the sides jump to a massive just over 5 feet high.. Double
                  that again and it goes crazy..A 64 footer with over 10 foot high
                  sides..This is a good example of what happens on a simple DOUBLE the
                  the boat..

                  BUT the good thing is.. IF you do the math you can simply get an IDEA
                  about what you are doing..

                  You can draw up the boat double size and then look at it ( well if you
                  have the talent for it ) and see what you need to change to make the
                  boat better..

                  I also make models of boats and float the models...LOTS of work (play
                  for me) but it helps a lot..

                  I make poster board models using double sided tape and let my eye and
                  my brain work on the idea. I guess many years many boats were built
                  like that by men with an artistic mind..

                  BUT I am gifted and do not think everyone should be able to do what I do..

                  A good example of my eye and brain working in great detail is once I
                  looked at a device and told the man he had to bottom braces at least
                  an inch to short and the rig would collapse.. He ask me HOW I could
                  sit in my pick up truck, look at his rig over 50 feet away and tell
                  him that. I said Please measure them before someone is killed..He
                  grabbed a tape made the measurement, looked at the plans and said, "Oh
                  my gosh".. He had measured the plans from BOLT hole to BOLT hole and
                  cut the braces to short...He was amazed. It may have ( Probably did)
                  save a life or at least kept someone from being hurt.. This may be why
                  I have been lucky at boat designs..ALSO I know my limits.. I will
                  never build a boat over 16 feet long. MY MIstakes will always be small
                  enough to fix.. Smile..BUT that does not mean someone else can't do
                  it.. Good day, Chief




                  On 10/29/13, c.ruzer@... <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
                  > You're not up to speed with the plan Leigh, either the ESC or BW series,
                  > sorry.
                  >
                  >
                  > ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <Leighpilot@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Now there's an idea! A really really bad one but an idea none the less.
                  > Bearing in mind that scaling is a fixed percentage change in length , is
                  > squared in area and cubed in volume.
                  >
                  >
                  > So increasing a boat by 15% in length will result in a 44% increase in
                  > material weight 65% change in interior volume. Want to guess what that's
                  > done to the ballast ratio,stability curves,hull stiffness etc?
                  >
                  >
                  > Pay a designer to change the plans or draw up a new boat. It's a lot
                  > cheaper than an upside down boat or a broken boat. There's many good
                  > reasons why forty foot boats don't look like scaled up 20ft boats.
                  >
                  > Leigh Ross
                  >
                  > 484 464 1575 C
                  > 610 624 1730 H
                  >
                  >
                  > www.unicornkayaks.com http://www.unicornkayaks.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Oct 28, 2013, at 6:17, <c.ruzer@... mailto:c.ruzer@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.
                  >
                  > Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall
                  > possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were
                  > USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this
                  > larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any
                  > case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC
                  > and you're away!!!
                  >
                  > Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead
                  > flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're
                  > calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and
                  > ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy
                  > stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I
                  > suppose.
                  >
                  > By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big
                  > Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?),
                  > and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the
                  > overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park
                  > figures of ... what?
                  >
                  >
                  > ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...>
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as
                  > an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I
                  > didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But
                  > I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.
                  >
                  > I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a
                  > study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an
                  > interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher
                  > to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good
                  > shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by
                  > Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.
                  >
                  > The stats look like:
                  > Length 38ft
                  > LOA close to 40ft
                  > Beam 9ft
                  > Draft cb up 16in
                  > Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
                  > Not sure about weight or Displacement
                  >
                  > I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside
                  > the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up
                  > minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as
                  > structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I
                  > imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit
                  > smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she
                  > proposed it to me.
                  >
                  > Paul
                  > Seattle
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • paull01
                  Hi c.ruzer. Sorry I m slow on the posts...still figuring out the new format. The drawings were only my fantasy after a quick phone conversation with Suzanne.
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 23, 2013
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                    Hi c.ruzer. Sorry I'm slow on the posts...still figuring out the new format. The drawings were only my fantasy after a quick phone conversation with Suzanne. No talk about scantlings or cost of materials. As I recall, Phil recommended the AS29 for my purposes over the ESC - I believe he didn't like the crudeness of the ESC stern for seagoing purposes. I guess it's never been tried at the larger size so who can say.


                    Paul



                    ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:

                     Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.

                     

                    Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!

                     

                    Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.

                     

                    By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?



                    ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:

                    About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.

                    I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.

                    The stats look like:
                    Length 38ft
                    LOA close to 40ft
                    Beam 9ft
                    Draft cb up 16in
                    Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
                    Not sure about weight or Displacement

                    I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.

                    Paul
                    Seattle
                  • paull01
                    On the rig...I d call it a straight scale up of Phil s gunter rig from the 23.5 foot birdwatcher. If you look at this website:
                    Message 9 of 16 , Nov 23, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On the rig...I'd call it a straight scale up of Phil's gunter rig from the 23.5 foot birdwatcher. If you look at this website:
                      http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/hogfish-maximus-44ish-sailing-sharpie-34759.html
                      you can get an idea of a scant draft sharpie with a bermudan rig. It can be done.
                      Paul

                       



                      ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:

                       Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.

                       

                      Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!

                       

                      Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.

                       

                      By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?



                      ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:

                      About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.

                      I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.

                      The stats look like:
                      Length 38ft
                      LOA close to 40ft
                      Beam 9ft
                      Draft cb up 16in
                      Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
                      Not sure about weight or Displacement

                      I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.

                      Paul
                      Seattle
                    • Connor, Patrick
                      Yes at a displacement of 44,000 lbs as I recall. Sent from my iPhone
                      Message 10 of 16 , Nov 24, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Yes at a displacement of 44,000 lbs as I recall.

                        Sent from my iPhone

                        On Nov 23, 2013, at 8:14 PM, "paull01@..." <paull01@...> wrote:

                         

                        On the rig...I'd call it a straight scale up of Phil's gunter rig from the 23.5 foot birdwatcher. If you look at this website:
                        http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/hogfish-maximus-44ish-sailing-sharpie-34759.html
                        you can get an idea of a scant draft sharpie with a bermudan rig. It can be done.
                        Paul

                         



                        ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:

                         Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.

                         

                        Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!

                         

                        Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.

                         

                        By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?



                        ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:

                        About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.

                        I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.

                        The stats look like:
                        Length 38ft
                        LOA close to 40ft
                        Beam 9ft
                        Draft cb up 16in
                        Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
                        Not sure about weight or Displacement

                        I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.

                        Paul
                        Seattle

                      • mason smith
                        Would it be worth throwing in here that the larger sail rig for the Birdwatcher was not a gunter, but a Solent lug? In practice that’s quite a different
                        Message 11 of 16 , Nov 24, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment

                          Would it be worth throwing in here that the larger sail rig for the Birdwatcher was not a gunter, but a Solent lug? In practice that’s quite a different thing, and no one should think that they are interchangeable. I had Birdwatchers with both rigs and once went to the trouble to figure out why Phil had used the Solent rig. I concluded that it was the right and only choice but will not bother the group with all the reasons (unless somebody asks for them).

                           

                          From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Connor, Patrick
                          Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 5:48 AM
                          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [bolger] RE: Big Birdwatcher

                           

                           

                          Yes at a displacement of 44,000 lbs as I recall.

                          Sent from my iPhone


                          On Nov 23, 2013, at 8:14 PM, "paull01@..." <paull01@...> wrote:

                           

                          On the rig...I'd call it a straight scale up of Phil's gunter rig from the 23.5 foot birdwatcher. If you look at this website:
                          http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/hogfish-maximus-44ish-sailing-sharpie-34759.html
                          you can get an idea of a scant draft sharpie with a bermudan rig. It can be done.
                          Paul

                           



                          ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:

                           Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.

                           

                          Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in  ;LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!

                           

                          Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.

                           

                          By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?

                           

                          ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:

                          About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.

                          I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.

                          The stats look like:
                          Length 38ft
                          LOA close to 40ft
                          Beam 9ft
                          Draft cb up 16in
                          Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
                          Not sure about weight or Di splacement

                          I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.

                          Paul
                          Seattle

                        • Leigh
                          Hi Folks I did the silly thing of removing the leeboards from my MJ without noting how the lines ran that attached it. Has anyone got photos or a clear diagram
                          Message 12 of 16 , Nov 24, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment

                            Hi Folks

                            I did the silly thing of removing the leeboards from my MJ without noting how the lines ran that attached it. Has anyone got photos or a clear diagram of how that's done? The plans are not very clear. 

                            Here she is

                            image.jpeg

                            Thanks 
                            Leigh Ross 

                            484 464 1575 C
                            610  624 1730 H


                            On Nov 24, 2013, at 6:44, <paull01@...> wrote:

                             

                            On the rig...I'd call it a straight scale up of Phil's gunter rig from the 23.5 foot birdwatcher. If you look at this website:
                            http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/hogfish-maximus-44ish-sailing-sharpie-34759.html
                            you can get an idea of a scant draft sharpie with a bermudan rig. It can be done.
                            Paul

                             



                            ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:

                             Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.

                             

                            Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!

                             

                            Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.

                             

                            By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?



                            ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:

                            About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.

                            I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.

                            The stats look like:
                            Length 38ft
                            LOA close to 40ft
                            Beam 9ft
                            Draft cb up 16in
                            Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
                            Not sure about weight or Displacement

                            I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.

                            Paul
                            Seattle

                          • Connor, Patrick
                            Looks nice! Sent from my iPhone
                            Message 13 of 16 , Nov 24, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Looks nice!

                              Sent from my iPhone

                              On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:41 PM, "Leigh" <Leighpilot@...> wrote:


                              Hi Folks

                              I did the silly thing of removing the leeboards from my MJ without noting how the lines ran that attached it. Has anyone got photos or a clear diagram of how that's done? The plans are not very clear. 

                              Here she is

                              <image.jpeg>

                              Thanks 
                              Leigh Ross 

                              484 464 1575 C
                              610  624 1730 H


                              On Nov 24, 2013, at 6:44, <paull01@...> wrote:

                               

                              On the rig...I'd call it a straight scale up of Phil's gunter rig from the 23.5 foot birdwatcher. If you look at this website:
                              http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/hogfish-maximus-44ish-sailing-sharpie-34759.html
                              you can get an idea of a scant draft sharpie with a bermudan rig. It can be done.
                              Paul

                               



                              ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:

                               Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.

                               

                              Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!

                               

                              Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.

                               

                              By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?



                              ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:

                              About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.

                              I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.

                              The stats look like:
                              Length 38ft
                              LOA close to 40ft
                              Beam 9ft
                              Draft cb up 16in
                              Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
                              Not sure about weight or Displacement

                              I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.

                              Paul
                              Seattle

                            • peterdmumford
                              Mason, since you offered, I am indeed asking. What is the difference between the solent lug and the gunter lug? and why is the solent better on the
                              Message 14 of 16 , Nov 25, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment

                                Mason, since you offered, I am indeed asking.

                                What is the difference between the solent lug and the gunter lug? and why is the solent better on the Birdwatcher?


                                Thanks, Peter 



                                ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <masonsmith@...> wrote:

                                Would it be worth throwing in here that the larger sail rig for the Birdwatcher was not a gunter, but a Solent lug? In practice that’s quite a different thing, and no one should think that they are interchangeable. I had Birdwatchers with both rigs and once went to the trouble to figure out why Phil had used the Solent rig. I concluded that it was the right and only choice but will not bother the group with all the reasons (unless somebody asks for them).

                                 

                                From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Connor, Patrick
                                Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 5:48 AM
                                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [bolger] RE: Big Birdwatcher

                                 

                                 

                                Yes at a displacement of 44,000 lbs as I recall.

                                Sent from my iPhone


                                On Nov 23, 2013, at 8:14 PM, "paull01@..." <paull01@...> wrote:

                                 

                                On the rig...I'd call it a straight scale up of Phil's gunter rig from the 23.5 foot birdwatcher. If you look at this website:
                                http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/hogfish-maximus-44ish-sailing-sharpie-34759.html
                                you can get an idea of a scant draft sharpie with a bermudan rig. It can be done.
                                Paul

                                 



                                ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:

                                 Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.

                                 

                                Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in  ;LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!

                                 

                                Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.

                                 

                                By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?

                                 

                                ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:

                                About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.

                                I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.

                                The stats look like:
                                Length 38ft
                                LOA close to 40ft
                                Beam 9ft
                                Draft cb up 16in
                                Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
                                Not sure about weight or Di splacement

                                I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.

                                Paul
                                Seattle

                              • Mason Smith
                                First, I do not set up as an expert, though I take an interest in these things and think what I say here would conform to what Phil says on the subject in 100
                                Message 15 of 16 , Nov 25, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  First, I do not set up as an expert, though I take an interest in these things and think what I say here would conform to what Phil says on the subject in 100 Rigs..

                                  A lug sail by definition has no attachment to the mast. It’s always a four-sided sail with its head carried on a yard, and the yard hauled aloft by a halyard. A tack or boom attachment or downhaul provides the tension on the luff whereby the peak is raised by the same halyard. This luff tension is crucial to the set of the sail.

                                   

                                  All lug sails come down when you want them down, fast. Possibly all a-cock, possibly overboard, and possibly knocking you out with their yards, but down. Let go halyard, and look out.

                                   

                                  In the case with the Solent lug, the luff lies close behind the mast, and a tack downhaul holds the tack down while the halyard brings the yard close behind and nearly in line with the mast, so that once set the sail is very similar to a gunter.

                                   

                                  (In a gunter, the yard has a jaw at its foot, usually with a parrel keeping it to the mast, and the luff has hoops or lacing to the mast.) In a gunter, you likely have just the one halyard just as with the Solent lug, and tension on the luff stop the rise of the foot of the yard so that further hauling brings the yard against the mast.)

                                   

                                  Now let me think about the reasons why the Solent lug was the best choice when Phil wanted to increase the horsepower on Birdwatcher.

                                   

                                  It let him get a taller rig without a longer mast. Gunter would have done that too. Well, one reason is that a sprit boom, which for various reasons he wanted, would conflict with the yard’s jaws going up and down. Busy, I will leave it at that for now, adding only that the simplicity of the original Birdwatcher rig, possibly complicated only by a little jib added, as I did on my first BW, is a sweet thing. The Solent lug required a fiercely strong and hard-set tack downhaul to work well, and it and its yard made a lot of sail and spar to handle in the standing room. The boat did sail fast with it, and it was pretty!.

                                   

                                  --Mason

                                   

                                  From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sunraydust@...
                                  Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 10:23 AM
                                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: RE: [bolger] RE: Big Birdwatcher

                                   

                                   

                                  Mason, since you offered, I am indeed asking.

                                  What is the difference between the solent lug and the gunter lug? and why is the solent better on the Birdwatcher?

                                   

                                  Thanks, Peter 



                                  ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <masonsmith@...> wrote:

                                  Would it be worth throwing in here that the larger sail rig for the Birdwatcher was not a gunter, but a Solent lug? In practice that’s quite a different thing, and no one should think that they are interchangeable. I had Birdwatchers with both rigs and once went to the trouble to figure out why Phil had used the Solent rig. I concluded that it was the right and only choice but will not bother the group with all the reasons (unless somebody asks for them).

                                   

                                  From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Connor, Patrick
                                  Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 5:48 AM
                                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [bolger] RE: Big Birdwatcher

                                   

                                   

                                  Yes at a displacement of 44,000 lbs as I recall.

                                  Sent from my iPhone


                                  On Nov 23, 2013, at 8:14 PM, "paull01@..." <paull01@...> wrote:

                                   

                                  On the rig...I'd call it a straight scale up of Phil's gunter rig from the 23.5 foot birdwatcher. If you look at this website:
                                  http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/hogfish-maximus-44ish-sailing-sharpie-34759.html
                                  you can get an idea of a scant draft sharpie with a bermudan rig. It can be done.
                                  Paul

                                   



                                  ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:

                                   Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.

                                   

                                  Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in  ;LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!

                                   

                                  Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.

                                   

                                  By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?

                                   

                                  ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:

                                  About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.

                                  I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.

                                  The stats look like:
                                  Length 38ft
                                  LOA close to 40ft
                                  Beam 9ft
                                  Draft cb up 16in
                                  Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
                                  Not sure about weight or Di splacement

                                  I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.

                                  Paul
                                  Seattle

                                • pvanderwaart
                                  Bolger made a comment somewhere that the Solent lug had racing success on the the eponymous body of water.That may have influenced him, though he was most
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Nov 25, 2013
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                                    Bolger made a comment somewhere that the Solent lug had racing success on the the eponymous body of water.That may have influenced him, though he was most definitely not the sort of designer to try to make a race boat out of every and anything. 
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