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Re: [Bioethics] Tookie versus Terri: Death Penalty illegal and outrageous, unless you are a person with a disability.

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  • Kathy
    Andrea, Do you have a statistic from a poll done professionally to support this 99% figure? It would be interesting to read about, if there is a journal
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 28, 2005
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      Andrea,
      Do you have a statistic from a poll done professionally to support this 99% figure?  It would be interesting to read about, if there is a journal article or scholarly information on this.
      Thanks
      Kathy MN
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 5:50 AM
      Subject: Re: [Bioethics] Tookie versus Terri: Death Penalty illegal and outrageous, unless you are a person with a disability.

      As I said, 99% of Austrians are against it - there is
      always one or the other nut case! And the media of
      course take this up. Sad.

      Andrea


      --- Kathy <kitkat24@...> wrote:

      > Schiavo Stokes Europe Euthanasia Debate
      > Schiavo Case Stokes Euthanasia Debate in Germany and
      > Austria, Where Hitler's Horrors Cloud Issue
      > By DANICA KIRKA
      > The Associated Press
      > VIENNA, Austria - Johann Gross survived three years
      > of Nazi laboratory experiments under an
      > extermination program that called for snuffing out
      > "worthless lives." That trauma shapes the Austrian's
      > view of Terri Schiavo's death.
      >
      > "No people in the world have the right to kill
      > another. It's murder," said Gross, 75, while
      > visiting an exhibit on wartime experiments at a
      > Vienna psychiatric hospital. "It's the same as the
      > Nazis did."
      >
      > Gross' reaction may seem extreme, but there are many
      > in Austria and Germany whose attitudes toward
      > euthanasia are clouded by Hitler's horrors. Until
      > recently, even talking about it was difficult
      > because it forced people to look into their dark
      > history.
      >
      > But since Schiavo's death March 31, after courts
      > ordered her feeding tube removed, the ethics of
      > euthanasia have become a hot topic in Austria and
      > Germany. Videotape showing Schiavo in her hospital
      > bed, in what was described as a vegetative state,
      > led TV newscasts for days.
      >
      > In Europe, the Netherlands permits euthanizing
      > terminally ill patients with no hope of recovery,
      > suffer unbearable pain and ask to die; Belgium has
      > also legalized euthanasia under strict conditions.
      > But it was the legal battle over Schiavo that forced
      > many Germans and Austrians to consider the issue as
      > never before.
      >
      > "When you have a face, a picture the life of one man
      > or a woman in this case ... it's easier for people
      > to have a debate on a special case versus an
      > abstract problem," said Josef Pumberger, the deputy
      > editor of Austria's Roman Catholic news agency,
      > Kathpress. "It makes it more real."
      >
      > Debate on these issues had begun in Austria and
      > Germany before the Schiavo case, but the publicity
      > surrounding it energized the discussions.
      >
      > Neither Austria nor Germany is considering
      > euthanasia laws, but both are wrestling with the
      > concept of living wills, which direct doctors on how
      > to treat patients who can no longer speak for
      > themselves.
      >
      > In Germany, the ruling Social Democrats, led by
      > Justice Minister Brigitte Zypries, want to
      > strengthen the rights of patients with living wills,
      > while a parliamentary commission wants to limit them
      > and allow in some cases for families and doctors to
      > overrule them.
      >
      > In predominantly Roman Catholic Austria, euthanasia
      > is punishable as a crime. But how much treatment a
      > suffering person receives is often left to the
      > doctors and is rarely discussed openly, said Peter
      > Kampits, dean of the philosophy and education
      > department at the University of Vienna.
      >
      > "There is a very dark side of this issue," said
      > Kampits, who chairs a city public health committee
      > on medical ethics.
      >
      > Panel member Dr. Martin Salzer argues that 60 years
      > after World War II, it is time to debate a
      > doctor-assisted suicide law similar to Oregon's. But
      > he finds Schiavo's treatment unacceptable because
      > she left no written instructions.
      >
      > "It is dangerous all over the world," Salzer said.
      > "If you could do it once, there is a danger it could
      > be done 10,000 times."
      >
      > Some of the survivors of the Nazi campaigns have
      > told Dr. Klaus Mihacek, an expert on post-traumatic
      > stress syndrome, that the Schiavo case has raised
      > uncomfortable memories.
      >
      > About 75,000 people across Europe, including 5,000
      > children, were subjected to experiments and killed
      > because they had physical or mental handicaps, were
      > social misfits or otherwise failed to meet the
      > Nazis' master-race criteria.
      >
      > The survivors "feel no one should play the role of
      > God," said Mihacek. "They know they were lucky to
      > survive."
      >
      > With the approaching 60th anniversary of the end of
      > the war, the experiments on children are being
      > remembered in two exhibits in Vienna. Gross will
      > take part in a ceremony later this month honoring
      > 400 children slain by the Nazis at a city clinic.
      >
      > Gross was sent to the Spiegelgrund clinic as a child
      > because he was judged asocial and because his father
      > was missing a hand. He said he was given injections
      > into his feet that made it impossible for him to
      > move for weeks unless he crawled.
      >
      > The ceremony will mark the day three years ago that
      > Vienna's government finally buried the brains of
      > children killed by injection, medical
      > experimentation or starvation at Spiegelgrund. The
      > organs had been preserved during the war for medical
      > research.
      >
      > "People should remember the time and not forget it,"
      > Gross said. "We should fight that these kind of
      > people never come again."
      >
      >
      > Associated Press Writer Matt Surman in Berlin
      > contributed to this report.
      >
      >
      > Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights
      > reserved. This material may not be published,
      > broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
      >
      > Copyright © 2005 ABC News Internet Ventures
      >
      >
      >
      >   ----- Original Message -----
      >   From: Andrea Stoeckl
      >   To: Bioethics@yahoogroups.com
      >   Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 6:40 AM
      >   Subject: Re: [Bioethics] Tookie versus Terri:
      > Death Penalty illegal and outrageous, unless you are
      > a person with a disability.
      >
      >
      >   Dear participants of the mailing list,
      >
      >   I am a reader of the list from Europe, and even
      > though
      >   I have only been 'lurking' on the list, I have
      > always
      >   read the emails with great interest.
      >
      >   I just would like to speak out against this crude
      >   comparisons that Kathy is doing, even though I
      > support
      >   her main argument. Europe is very diverse and the
      >   comparison that Kathy is doing is not they way
      > things
      >   are debated in Europe, or better, Austria.
      > Austrians
      >   newspapers and the majority of Austrian citizens
      > (I
      >   would say 99%) are against death penalty. And they
      > are
      >   also against Euthanasia!! That is the point. The
      >   mainstream Austrian and German newspapers and
      > public
      >   opinion was very much shocked and outraged about
      > Terri
      >   Schiavo's death as much as they are appalled at
      > Arnold
      >   Schwarzenegger's decision to give permission to
      > kill
      >   another human being. 
      >
      >   Some of the citizens of the town of Graz, which is
      >   where Arnold Schwarzenegger comes from, have been
      > very
      >   outraged at his decision and argued that he no
      > longer
      >   deserves to keep Austrian citizenship (he is a
      >   naturalized American anyway!)because death penalty
      > is
      >   forbidden in Austria and in all member states of
      > the
      >   EU. Arnold, in turn, instead of discussing these
      >   issues publicly, has now forbidden the city of
      > Graz to
      >   use his name in any contexts (a football stadium
      > was
      >   bearing his name).
      >
      >   Please don't get me wrong, I do not want to start
      > a
      >   debate about death penalty here. I just wanted to
      > draw
      >   attention to the fact that mainstream Austrian
      >   citizens and newspapers condemn both Euthanasia
      > and
      >   the death penalty.
      >
      >
      === message truncated ===



                 
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    • Kathy
      I re-read the article, and though I am not a big fan of the Associate Press. Matt Surman and company never call what Hitler did Euthanasia. It is describing
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 28, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        I re-read the article, and though I am not a big fan of the Associate Press.  Matt Surman and company never call what Hitler did Euthanasia.  It is describing why, Andrea's claim to the "99%" might be true in regards to Austria etc's view of euthanasia and the taking of human life by medical professionals.
         
        I maintain this simple truth.  People can kill themselves without doctors or nurses or the community of medical professionals.  They do it all the time.  Why take a helping profession and cloud, it. 
         
        I think comparisons can most definately be made between Tookie and Terri.  Tookie killed four people, murdered them, and shot one in the back who was fleeing.  He initiated the LA Crips, who have gone on to murder and mayhem for years to come.  MANY (Notice the qualification) people who advocate for Tookie's clemancy, are the SAME people who advocated for Terri's death, and for Michael Schiavo to be able to stop her tube feedings after 15 years. 
         
        I believe these two positions to be in opposition to each other.  If you advocated for death all around, you are at least consistent.  If you advocated for life, all around, at least you are consistent.  If you advocate that a ruthless murder deserves penalty of death, yet advocate that the life of a non-convicted non-murderer, person with disabilities deserves to be allowed to live then that seems better than:

        Tookie should be allowed to live, and Terri was rightfully put to death.  These in my opinion, lack consistency.
         
        That's my opinion, and I'm stickin' with it.

        Kathy MN
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:54 AM
        Subject: [Bioethics] Re: Tookie versus Terri: Death Penalty illegal and outrageous, unless you are

        This article mixes everything together and prolongs and promotes the
        many faults in the debate.
        To untangle them it request a longer article. One point to be
        emphsized is this:
        "In Europe, the Netherlands permits euthanizing terminally ill
        patients with no hope of recovery, suffer unbearable pain and ask to
        die; Belgium has also legalized euthanasia under strict conditions."
        The decision of being allowed to be killed is a doctor decision and
        the killing itself is a "MEDICAL !!!!!! ! procedure.
        Also in Oregon it is a position prescribed by a DOCTOR.
        This was never the case in the murder program in nazi germany called
        "euthanasia", because none of the murdered persons wanted to be murdered.
        So to call the german's doctors murder program: "euthanasia" is a
        crime of using wrong words. That this is done even in "bioethics"
        circles demonstrate, that some People here will also allow the
        continuing protection of the crimes of the doctors by a using a Nazi
        term, just as they will use the Nazi (-also medical!)term "final
        solution" for the Shoah.
        Szasz made it explicitly clear in his book "Fatal freedom". People
        should read instead of "abusing" words and language:
        http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0275966461/qid=1135244817/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-5619708-1128754?n=507846&s=books&v=glance
        hagai
        ----------------
        --- In Bioethics@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy" <kitkat24@c...> wrote:
        >
        > Schiavo Stokes Europe Euthanasia Debate
        > Schiavo Case Stokes Euthanasia Debate in Germany and Austria, Where
        Hitler's Horrors Cloud Issue
        > By DANICA KIRKA
        > The Associated Press
        > VIENNA, Austria - Johann Gross survived three years of Nazi
        laboratory experiments under an extermination program that called for
        snuffing out "worthless lives." That trauma shapes the Austrian's view
        of Terri Schiavo's death.
        >
        > "No people in the world have the right to kill another. It's
        murder," said Gross, 75, while visiting an exhibit on wartime
        experiments at a Vienna psychiatric hospital. "It's the same as the
        Nazis did."
        >
        > Gross' reaction may seem extreme, but there are many in Austria and
        Germany whose attitudes toward euthanasia are clouded by Hitler's
        horrors. Until recently, even talking about it was difficult because
        it forced people to look into their dark history.
        >
        > But since Schiavo's death March 31, after courts ordered her feeding
        tube removed, the ethics of euthanasia have become a hot topic in
        Austria and Germany. Videotape showing Schiavo in her hospital bed, in
        what was described as a vegetative state, led TV newscasts for days.
        >
        > In Europe, the Netherlands permits euthanizing terminally ill
        patients with no hope of recovery, suffer unbearable pain and ask to
        die; Belgium has also legalized euthanasia under strict conditions.
        But it was the legal battle over Schiavo that forced many Germans and
        Austrians to consider the issue as never before.
        >
        > "When you have a face, a picture the life of one man or a woman in
        this case ... it's easier for people to have a debate on a special
        case versus an abstract problem," said Josef Pumberger, the deputy
        editor of Austria's Roman Catholic news agency, Kathpress. "It makes
        it more real."
        >
        > Debate on these issues had begun in Austria and Germany before the
        Schiavo case, but the publicity surrounding it energized the discussions.
        >
        > Neither Austria nor Germany is considering euthanasia laws, but both
        are wrestling with the concept of living wills, which direct doctors
        on how to treat patients who can no longer speak for themselves.
        >
        > In Germany, the ruling Social Democrats, led by Justice Minister
        Brigitte Zypries, want to strengthen the rights of patients with
        living wills, while a parliamentary commission wants to limit them and
        allow in some cases for families and doctors to overrule them.
        >
        > In predominantly Roman Catholic Austria, euthanasia is punishable as
        a crime. But how much treatment a suffering person receives is often
        left to the doctors and is rarely discussed openly, said Peter
        Kampits, dean of the philosophy and education department at the
        University of Vienna.
        >
        > "There is a very dark side of this issue," said Kampits, who chairs
        a city public health committee on medical ethics.
        >
        > Panel member Dr. Martin Salzer argues that 60 years after World War
        II, it is time to debate a doctor-assisted suicide law similar to
        Oregon's. But he finds Schiavo's treatment unacceptable because she
        left no written instructions.
        >
        > "It is dangerous all over the world," Salzer said. "If you could do
        it once, there is a danger it could be done 10,000 times."
        >
        > Some of the survivors of the Nazi campaigns have told Dr. Klaus
        Mihacek, an expert on post-traumatic stress syndrome, that the Schiavo
        case has raised uncomfortable memories.
        >
        > About 75,000 people across Europe, including 5,000 children, were
        subjected to experiments and killed because they had physical or
        mental handicaps, were social misfits or otherwise failed to meet the
        Nazis' master-race criteria.
        >
        > The survivors "feel no one should play the role of God," said
        Mihacek. "They know they were lucky to survive."
        >
        > With the approaching 60th anniversary of the end of the war, the
        experiments on children are being remembered in two exhibits in
        Vienna. Gross will take part in a ceremony later this month honoring
        400 children slain by the Nazis at a city clinic.
        >
        > Gross was sent to the Spiegelgrund clinic as a child because he was
        judged asocial and because his father was missing a hand. He said he
        was given injections into his feet that made it impossible for him to
        move for weeks unless he crawled.
        >
        > The ceremony will mark the day three years ago that Vienna's
        government finally buried the brains of children killed by injection,
        medical experimentation or starvation at Spiegelgrund. The organs had
        been preserved during the war for medical research.
        >
        > "People should remember the time and not forget it," Gross said. "We
        should fight that these kind of people never come again."
        >
        >
        > Associated Press Writer Matt Surman in Berlin contributed to this
        report.
        >
        >
        > Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
        material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
        >
        > Copyright © 2005 ABC News Internet Ventures
        >
        >
        >
        >   ----- Original Message -----
        >   From: Andrea Stoeckl
        >   To: Bioethics@yahoogroups.com
        >   Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 6:40 AM
        >   Subject: Re: [Bioethics] Tookie versus Terri: Death Penalty
        illegal and outrageous, unless you are a person with a disability.
        >
        >
        >   Dear participants of the mailing list,
        >
        >   I am a reader of the list from Europe, and even though
        >   I have only been 'lurking' on the list, I have always
        >   read the emails with great interest.
        >
        >   I just would like to speak out against this crude
        >   comparisons that Kathy is doing, even though I support
        >   her main argument. Europe is very diverse and the
        >   comparison that Kathy is doing is not they way things
        >   are debated in Europe, or better, Austria. Austrians
        >   newspapers and the majority of Austrian citizens (I
        >   would say 99%) are against death penalty. And they are
        >   also against Euthanasia!! That is the point. The
        >   mainstream Austrian and German newspapers and public
        >   opinion was very much shocked and outraged about Terri
        >   Schiavo's death as much as they are appalled at Arnold
        >   Schwarzenegger's decision to give permission to kill
        >   another human being. 
        >
        >   Some of the citizens of the town of Graz, which is
        >   where Arnold Schwarzenegger comes from, have been very
        >   outraged at his decision and argued that he no longer
        >   deserves to keep Austrian citizenship (he is a
        >   naturalized American anyway!)because death penalty is
        >   forbidden in Austria and in all member states of the
        >   EU. Arnold, in turn, instead of discussing these
        >   issues publicly, has now forbidden the city of Graz to
        >   use his name in any contexts (a football stadium was
        >   bearing his name).
        >
        >   Please don't get me wrong, I do not want to start a
        >   debate about death penalty here. I just wanted to draw
        >   attention to the fact that mainstream Austrian
        >   citizens and newspapers condemn both Euthanasia and
        >   the death penalty.
        >
        >   What happens in UK is a different matter (see mercy
        >   killing of Wragg's son).
        >
        >   best wishes,
        >
        >   Andrea
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >   --- Kathy <kitkat24@c...> wrote:
        >
        >   > Euthanasia for the sick and disabled good, death
        >   > penalty for convicted murderers bad. 
        >   >

        ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
        >   > Judge Greer, Ronald Cranford, and Michael Schiavo
        >   > are merciful and courageous, while Arnold
        >   > Schwarzenegger is a wimp and
        >   >

        unmerciful??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
        >   >
        >   > Williams' Execution Angers Many in Europe
        >   >
        >   > Tuesday, December 13, 2005
        >   >
        >   > 
        >   >
        >   > VIENNA, Austria  - California's execution of Stanley
        >   > Tookie Williams on Tuesday outraged many in Europe
        >   > who regard the practice as barbaric, and politicians
        >   > in Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's native Austria
        >   > called for his name to be removed from a sports
        >   > stadium in his hometown.
        >   >
        >   > At the Vatican, Pope Benedict XVI's top official for
        >   > justice matters denounced the death penalty for
        >   > going against redemption and human dignity.
        >   >
        >   > "We know the death penalty doesn't resolve
        >   > anything," Cardinal Renato Martino told the press.
        >   > "Even a criminal is worthy of respect because he is
        >   > a human being. The death penalty is a negation of
        >   > human dignity."
        >   >
        >   > Capital punishment is illegal throughout the
        >   > European Union, and many Europeans consider
        >   > state-sponsored executions to be barbaric. Those
        >   > feelings were amplified in the case of Williams, due
        >   > to the apparent remorse they believe the Crips gang
        >   > co-founder showed by writing children's books about
        >   > the dangers of gangs and violence.
        >   >
        >   > Leaders of Austria's pacifist Green Party went as
        >   > far as to call for Schwarzenegger to be stripped of
        >   > his Austrian citizenship - a demand that was quickly
        >   > rejected by Chancellor Wolfgang Schuessel despite
        >   > his government's opposition to the death penalty.
        >   >
        >   > "Whoever, out of political calculation, allows the
        >   > death of a person rehabilitated in such an exemplary
        >   > manner has rejected the basic values of Austrian
        >   > society," said Peter Pilz, a Greens leader.
        >   >
        >   > In Schwarzenegger's hometown of Graz, local Greens
        >   > said they would file a petition to remove his name
        >   > from the southern city's sports stadium. A Christian
        >   > political group went even further, suggesting it be
        >   > renamed the "Stanley Tookie Williams Stadium."
        >   >
        >   > "Mr. Williams had converted, and unlike Mr.
        >   > Schwarzenegger, opposed every form of violence,"
        >   > said Richard Schadauer, the chairman of the
        >   > Association of Christianity and Social Democracy.
        >   >
        >   > Williams was executed early Tuesday at California's
        >   > San Quentin State Prison after Schwarzenegger denied
        >   > Williams' request for clemency. Schwarzenegger
        >   > suggested that Williams' supposed change of heart
        >   > was not genuine because he had not shown any real
        >   > remorse for the killings committed by the Crips.
        >   >
        >   > Criticism came quickly from many quarters, including
        >   > the Socialist Party in France, where the death
        >   > penalty was abolished in 1981.
        >   >
        >   > "I am proud to be a Frenchman," party spokesman
        >   > Julien Dray told RTL radio. "I am proud to live in
        >   > France, in a country where we don't execute somebody
        >   > 21 years later."
        >   >
        >   > "Schwarzenegger has a lot of muscles, but apparently
        >   > not much heart," Dray said.
        >   >
        >   > In Italy, the country's chapter of Amnesty
        >   > International called the execution "a cold-blooded
        >   > murder."
        >   >
        >   > "His execution is a slap in the face to the
        >   > principle of rehabilitation of inmates, an inhumane
        >   > and inclement act toward a person who, with his
        >   > exemplary behavior and his activity in favor of
        >   > street kids, had become an important figure and a
        >   > symbol of hope for many youths," the group said.
        >   >
        >   > In Germany, Volker Beck, a leading member of the
        >   > opposition Greens party, expressed disappointment.
        >   > "Schwarzenegger's decision is a cowardly decision,"
        >   > Beck told the Netzeitung online newspaper.
        >   >
        >   > From London, Clive Stafford-Smith, a human rights
        >   > attorney specializing in death penalty cases, called
        >   > the execution "very sad."
        >   >
        >   > "He was twice as old as when they sentenced him to
        >   > die, and he certainly wasn't the same person that he
        >   > was when he was sentenced," Stafford-Smith said.
        >   >
        >   > Rome Mayor Walter Veltroni said the city would keep
        >   > Williams in its memory the next time it celebrates a
        >   > victory against the death penalty somewhere in the
        >   > world.
        >   >
        >   > Rome's Colosseum, once the arena for deadly
        >   > gladiator combat and executions, has become a symbol
        >   > of Italy's anti-death penalty stance. Since 1999,
        >   > the monument has been bathed in golden light every
        >   > time a death sentence is commuted somewhere in the
        >   > world or a country abolishes capital punishment.
        >   >
        >   > "I hope there will be such an occasion soon,"
        >   > Veltroni said in a statement. "When it happens, we
        >   > will do it with a special thought for Tookie."
        >   >
        >   >
        >   >
        >   > Wragg Walks Free, Cleared Of Murdering His Son
        >   > By Dave Reynolds, Inclusion Daily Express
        >   > www.InclusionDaily.com
        >   > December 13, 2005
        >   >
        >   > EAST SUSSEX, ENGLAND--Andrew Wragg walked out of
        >   > Lewes Crown Court
        >   > Monday a free man after a jury determined that he
        >   > did not murder his
        >   > 10-year-old son.
        >   >
        >   > Mrs. Justice Anne Rafferty, calling the case
        >   > "exceptional", gave
        >   > Wragg a two-year prison sentence for manslaughter,
        >   > then suspended
        >   > his sentence for two years.
        >   >
        >   > Rafferty said there was "nothing to be gained" from
        >   > sending Wragg to
        >   > prison for the crime.
        >   >
        >   > Wragg, 38, admitted that he suffocated Jacob to
        >   > death with a pillow
        >   > on July 24, 2004 because of the boy's disabilities
        >   > related to Hunter
        >   > syndrome. Children with Hunter syndrome experience a
        >   > number of
        >   > disabilities and rarely live into their twenties.
        >   > Wragg said he
        >   > believed his son communicated to him, through a look
        >   > in his eyes,
        >   > that he wanted to die.
        >   >
        >   > A military security specialist, Wragg also claimed
        >   > that he was under
        >   > stress after returning from the war in Iraq. He
        >   > pleaded guilty to
        >   > manslaughter by reason of diminished capacity.
        >   >
        >   > Prosecutors stressed that Jacob was not "on death's
        >   > door", was aware
        >   > of what was happening, and was fully able to make
        >   > his own decisions.
        >   > Family members pointed out that, even though he used
        >   > a wheelchair,
        >   > could not talk and was deaf, Jacob was happy and
        >   > "giggly",
        >   > particularly on the day his father decided to kill
        >   > him.
        >   >
        >   > Still, the jury agreed with Wragg that the act was a
        >   > "mercy killing"
        >   > to end the boy's "suffering".
        >   >
        >   > Rafferty said her decision to give a lighter
        >   > sentence was influenced
        >   > by what she believed was approval by Jacob's mother,
        >   > Mary Wragg.
        >   >
        >   > Mrs. Wragg, who has since divorced Jacob's father,
        >   > testified that
        >   > Mr. Wragg told her to take their 6-year-old son,
        >   > George, to her
        >   > mother's flat. She said that she thought Mr. Wragg
        >   > wanted to have
        >   > some private time with her. She told the court she
        >   > was shocked when
        >   > her husband called to report that he had killed
        >   > Jacob.
        >   >
        >   > Rafferty told the court that Mrs. Wragg had driven
        >   > some distance
        >   > after leaving their home, but stopped and waited for
        >   > her husband's
        >   > phone call before continuing on to her mother's flat
        >   > with George.
        >   >
        >   > "One would have to be quite remarkably naive to
        >   > accept that this
        >   >
        >   === message truncated ===
        >
        >
        >
        >              
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