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Re: [BikeWashingtonDC] Re: Hit by a car today at Chain Bridge

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  • A R
    I have to agree that while I initially loved bike lanes when I started riding, I quickly began to see their limitations. I frequently use bike lane routes in
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 1, 2007
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      I have to agree that while I initially loved bike lanes when I started riding, I quickly began to see their limitations. I frequently use bike lane routes in and around DC. The bike lane along 5th Street NW (near the McMillan Resevoir) is great because there's no parking around there, nor are there any buses that use this route. However, I've been seeing more and more debris in this bike lane. Just this morning I swerved to avoid some debris and almost ran into a car. The bike lane on 14th Street NW is constantly blocked by illegally parked cars and bus drivers don't even look before moving in and out of the bike lane on this road.

      I do think bike lanes have some positive attributes. First, they get people on the road. I know several people who started bike commuting in my neighborhood only after the bike lane was added to 5th Street NW. In addition, they seem to make motorists more aware of cyclists. The bike lanes sort of affirm that cyclists belong on the road too. But that's where their positive attributes seem to end.

      So what solution should we be advocating for?

      AR


      Geof Gee <geoffreygee@...> wrote:

      You forgot to mention the debris that collects in bike lanes as well
      as the occasional lane that puts you an awful position -- like to the
      right of a right turn lane or fork (such at Military Road).

      Although some are well designed and I gather improve our general
      situation.

      -G

      --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, Live The_Dream
      <livethedream68@...> wrote:
      >
      > Cycle lanes, bike paths, cycle routes - call them what you like -
      many cyclists, myself included, hate using them!
      >
      > Surprised?
      >
      > Here is a list of why...
      >
      > ...and you can add to it BikeWashingtonDC, please do so:
      >
      > - need to constantly swerve in and out avoiding the potholes and curbs
      > - full of wandering pedestrians
      > - bus drivers pull in anywhere they want and let people off buses
      who wander straight into the lane
      > - cars are always parked on it, or pull in and have to wait to
      open the gates to their house
      >
      > LIVE the DREAM
      >
      >
      > icoleman1 <ibcoleman@...> wrote:
      > --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, A R
      <statisticschick@> wrote:
      > >
      > > While there are certainly some bad, aggressive drivers out there,
      > > the vast majority probably have no intention of hurting a
      > > cyclist.[...]Even three years ago, I rarely encountered a motorist
      > > who made any effort not to run me off the road.
      >
      > These two statements seem contradictory. :)
      >
      > I don't see most drivers as being malevolent--although they are
      > definitely out there. Most just don't pay much attention.
      >
      > That's why taking the lane (when necessary) is so important. I'd
      > rather have someone slightly peeved at not being able to pass
      > immediately than run me off the road through carelessness.
      >
      > --ic
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >






      ---------------------------------
      Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Peter Saint James
      ... Adequate law enforcement so that every auto parked in a bike lane gets towed. Drivers license testing that requires applicant to answer correctly at least
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 1, 2007
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        On 1 Aug 2007, at 9:00 AM, A R wrote:

        > So what solution should we be advocating for?


        Adequate law enforcement so that every auto parked in a bike lane
        gets towed.

        Drivers license testing that requires applicant to answer correctly
        at least 200 question on the written exam, 80 percent of which are
        about right of way and half of those about pedestrians and
        cyclists. And the requirement that license holders take the test
        over again whenever they renew their license. That way motorists
        will have to know the law to drive.

        Buses in their own lanes, free of both cyclist and other motor
        vehicles.



        Peter
      • John PIckett
        I am no fan of bike lanes either for the same reasons that you state. (Bike lanes in door zones are another.) I like the concept of sharrows much better.
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 1, 2007
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          I am no fan of bike lanes either for the same reasons that you
          state. (Bike lanes in door zones are another.)

          I like the concept of sharrows much better. There are few (albeit
          some misplaced) on Union Street in Old Town, but I'd like to them
          instead of bike lanes. They send a clear message to cars that bikes
          belong in the lane (not in some separate place on the road. (I know
          that bikes belong in almost any right hand lane but many drivers
          don't recognize that.) Sharrows also allow skittish cyclists to have
          a little more confidence about being on the road.

          -- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, A R <statisticschick@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I have to agree that while I initially loved bike lanes when I
          started riding, I quickly began to see their limitations. I
          frequently use bike lane routes in and around DC. The bike lane
          along 5th Street NW (near the McMillan Resevoir) is great because
          there's no parking around there, nor are there any buses that use
          this route. However, I've been seeing more and more debris in this
          bike lane. Just this morning I swerved to avoid some debris and
          almost ran into a car. The bike lane on 14th Street NW is constantly
          blocked by illegally parked cars and bus drivers don't even look
          before moving in and out of the bike lane on this road.
          >
          > I do think bike lanes have some positive attributes. First, they
          get people on the road. I know several people who started bike
          commuting in my neighborhood only after the bike lane was added to
          5th Street NW. In addition, they seem to make motorists more aware
          of cyclists. The bike lanes sort of affirm that cyclists belong on
          the road too. But that's where their positive attributes seem to
          end.
          >
          > So what solution should we be advocating for?
          >
          > AR
          >
          >
          > Geof Gee <geoffreygee@...> wrote:
          >
          > You forgot to mention the debris that collects in bike lanes as well
          > as the occasional lane that puts you an awful position -- like to
          the
          > right of a right turn lane or fork (such at Military Road).
          >
          > Although some are well designed and I gather improve our general
          > situation.
          >
          > -G
          >
          > --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, Live The_Dream
          > <livethedream68@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Cycle lanes, bike paths, cycle routes - call them what you like -
          > many cyclists, myself included, hate using them!
          > >
          > > Surprised?
          > >
          > > Here is a list of why...
          > >
          > > ...and you can add to it BikeWashingtonDC, please do so:
          > >
          > > - need to constantly swerve in and out avoiding the potholes and
          curbs
          > > - full of wandering pedestrians
          > > - bus drivers pull in anywhere they want and let people off buses
          > who wander straight into the lane
          > > - cars are always parked on it, or pull in and have to wait to
          > open the gates to their house
          > >
          > > LIVE the DREAM
          > >
          > >
          > > icoleman1 <ibcoleman@> wrote:
          > > --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, A R
          > <statisticschick@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > While there are certainly some bad, aggressive drivers out
          there,
          > > > the vast majority probably have no intention of hurting a
          > > > cyclist.[...]Even three years ago, I rarely encountered a
          motorist
          > > > who made any effort not to run me off the road.
          > >
          > > These two statements seem contradictory. :)
          > >
          > > I don't see most drivers as being malevolent--although they are
          > > definitely out there. Most just don't pay much attention.
          > >
          > > That's why taking the lane (when necessary) is so important. I'd
          > > rather have someone slightly peeved at not being able to pass
          > > immediately than run me off the road through carelessness.
          > >
          > > --ic
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------
          > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see
          what's on, when.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Geof Gee
          Oh boy ... I can t remember the last time someone gave me carte blanche to opine! ;-) Not that AR or anyone else here suggested that there is a single
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 1, 2007
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            Oh boy ... I can't remember the last time someone gave me carte
            blanche to opine! ;-)

            Not that AR or anyone else here suggested that there is a single
            solution; but I believe that different environments and cost
            constraints result in different optimal solutions. A real issue,
            however, is that data supporting one type of facility over another, in
            my opinion, is lacking.

            Believe it or not, below is an attempt to keep things clear yet brief.

            One, I believe that traffic calming measures improve the cycling
            environment considerably without affecting motorist travel times
            significantly. In other words, many motorists speed when there really
            is no point and it increases the danger to everyone. With the caveat
            that I am not that familiar with their accounting costs, I also like
            red light/speeding cameras for this activity (I thought that they paid
            for themselves from the municipality's standpoint; but that might be a
            rumor). I support a lot of what Peter wrote as well given that the
            enforcement was not draconian. I will add that stopping impaired
            driving (lack of sleep, intoxication, and so on) should be a major
            objective. In other words, there are some practicalities of city
            traffic that we all need to deal with but if we can "smooth the edges"
            and take care of the worst offenders, in my opinion, we would see a
            dramatic improvement.

            Two, I agree with AR that people generally like bike lanes for these
            semi-arterials (13th/14th ST) with somewhat aggressive city traffic.
            Again writing as a layperson, I imagine that the cost of rebuilding
            these streets to be more accommodating for cyclists would be
            prohibitive in many instances. If there are funds to make the street
            wider to incorporate a wide outside lane with big SHARROWS, then I
            think that is my first preference. My preference isn't very strong
            however, over a well-maintained bike lane and if more evidence is
            found, I can be convinced otherwise. Note that my preference for a
            SHARROW over a bike lane is conditioned on a lot of environmental
            factors. For instance, if a road is relatively dense and has good
            visibility at intersections, I would pick the bike lane since I think
            that is would provide a better flow for both the cyclist and motorist
            and provide better legal protections for motorist carelessness. If
            there are little funds to widen a road and writing loosely, I would
            suggest having bike lanes between intersections with well placed
            SHARROWS as one gets closer to the intersection. I would like some
            signage that reminds motorists/cyclists to take the lane in tricky
            situations such as forks in the road. If the road is really narrow,
            then a SHARROW would be the only facilities answer (maybe a sign
            reading "cyclists take the lane"?).

            Three, for major arterials, I generally lean towards bike lanes and/or
            wide shoulders. Erika and I were a little surprised when the Santa Fe
            Century took us onto I-25. However, traveling on the interstate was
            rather pleasant due to the massive shoulder that was relatively debris
            free. I would use bike lanes to coordinate high-speed traffic with
            cyclists at intersections/merges (avoiding right-turn-lanes/exit ramps
            by moving the cyclist left) and continue to use SHARROWS at places
            when the environment demands a slower speed.

            Four, I think that there need to be some reminders that cyclists
            should move left when making a left turn or avoiding bike lane debris.
            More generally, who has right of way in some of the more tricky road
            environments.

            Last comment: I am convinced that as more cyclists take to the road,
            the safer it becomes for cyclists. Mainly due to motorist habituation
            and greater general acceptability of road cyclists. So encouraging
            more cyclists could probably have a significant effect on safe cycling
            as well.

            Where is Barry? From forum conversations, he is more familiar with
            the practical issues than me.

            -G

            P.S. I have not come to many conclusions about cycling in inclement
            weather and its interaction with cycling facilities. That is, the
            discussion above doesn't really consider its effects; i.e., what
            happens when the bike lane is covered in snow?



            --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, A R <statisticschick@...> wrote:
            >
            > I have to agree that while I initially loved bike lanes when I
            started riding, I quickly began to see their limitations. I
            frequently use bike lane routes in and around DC. The bike lane along
            5th Street NW (near the McMillan Resevoir) is great because there's no
            parking around there, nor are there any buses that use this route.
            However, I've been seeing more and more debris in this bike lane.
            Just this morning I swerved to avoid some debris and almost ran into a
            car. The bike lane on 14th Street NW is constantly blocked by
            illegally parked cars and bus drivers don't even look before moving in
            and out of the bike lane on this road.
            >
            > I do think bike lanes have some positive attributes. First, they
            get people on the road. I know several people who started bike
            commuting in my neighborhood only after the bike lane was added to 5th
            Street NW. In addition, they seem to make motorists more aware of
            cyclists. The bike lanes sort of affirm that cyclists belong on the
            road too. But that's where their positive attributes seem to end.
            >
            > So what solution should we be advocating for?
            >
            > AR
            >
            >
            > Geof Gee <geoffreygee@...> wrote:
            >
            > You forgot to mention the debris that collects in bike lanes as well
            > as the occasional lane that puts you an awful position -- like to the
            > right of a right turn lane or fork (such at Military Road).
            >
            > Although some are well designed and I gather improve our general
            > situation.
            >
            > -G
            >
            > --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, Live The_Dream
            > <livethedream68@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Cycle lanes, bike paths, cycle routes - call them what you like -
            > many cyclists, myself included, hate using them!
            > >
            > > Surprised?
            > >
            > > Here is a list of why...
            > >
            > > ...and you can add to it BikeWashingtonDC, please do so:
            > >
            > > - need to constantly swerve in and out avoiding the potholes and curbs
            > > - full of wandering pedestrians
            > > - bus drivers pull in anywhere they want and let people off buses
            > who wander straight into the lane
            > > - cars are always parked on it, or pull in and have to wait to
            > open the gates to their house
            > >
            > > LIVE the DREAM
            > >
            > >
            > > icoleman1 <ibcoleman@> wrote:
            > > --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, A R
            > <statisticschick@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > While there are certainly some bad, aggressive drivers out there,
            > > > the vast majority probably have no intention of hurting a
            > > > cyclist.[...]Even three years ago, I rarely encountered a motorist
            > > > who made any effort not to run me off the road.
            > >
            > > These two statements seem contradictory. :)
            > >
            > > I don't see most drivers as being malevolent--although they are
            > > definitely out there. Most just don't pay much attention.
            > >
            > > That's why taking the lane (when necessary) is so important. I'd
            > > rather have someone slightly peeved at not being able to pass
            > > immediately than run me off the road through carelessness.
            > >
            > > --ic
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see
            what's on, when.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • John PIckett
            I would point out that for all its shortcomings the DC area is actual a pretty good place to ride. Any city with an old road network is going to have issues
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 1, 2007
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              I would point out that for all its shortcomings the DC area is actual
              a pretty good place to ride. Any city with an old road network is
              going to have issues accomodating bikes in an auto dominant culture.
              People here in DC generally have an accepting attutude toward
              bicyclists. In other places (Missouri and western Pennsylvania come
              to mind) bicyclists serve as beer can targets and dog prey.

              But if you want to feel really envious go to Davis California. It is
              simply amazing.



              -- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, "Geof Gee" <geoffreygee@...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > Oh boy ... I can't remember the last time someone gave me carte
              > blanche to opine! ;-)
              >
              > Not that AR or anyone else here suggested that there is a single
              > solution; but I believe that different environments and cost
              > constraints result in different optimal solutions. A real issue,
              > however, is that data supporting one type of facility over another,
              in
              > my opinion, is lacking.
              >
              > Believe it or not, below is an attempt to keep things clear yet
              brief.
              >
              > One, I believe that traffic calming measures improve the cycling
              > environment considerably without affecting motorist travel times
              > significantly. In other words, many motorists speed when there
              really
              > is no point and it increases the danger to everyone. With the
              caveat
              > that I am not that familiar with their accounting costs, I also like
              > red light/speeding cameras for this activity (I thought that they
              paid
              > for themselves from the municipality's standpoint; but that might
              be a
              > rumor). I support a lot of what Peter wrote as well given that the
              > enforcement was not draconian. I will add that stopping impaired
              > driving (lack of sleep, intoxication, and so on) should be a major
              > objective. In other words, there are some practicalities of city
              > traffic that we all need to deal with but if we can "smooth the
              edges"
              > and take care of the worst offenders, in my opinion, we would see a
              > dramatic improvement.
              >
              > Two, I agree with AR that people generally like bike lanes for these
              > semi-arterials (13th/14th ST) with somewhat aggressive city
              traffic.
              > Again writing as a layperson, I imagine that the cost of rebuilding
              > these streets to be more accommodating for cyclists would be
              > prohibitive in many instances. If there are funds to make the
              street
              > wider to incorporate a wide outside lane with big SHARROWS, then I
              > think that is my first preference. My preference isn't very strong
              > however, over a well-maintained bike lane and if more evidence is
              > found, I can be convinced otherwise. Note that my preference for a
              > SHARROW over a bike lane is conditioned on a lot of environmental
              > factors. For instance, if a road is relatively dense and has good
              > visibility at intersections, I would pick the bike lane since I
              think
              > that is would provide a better flow for both the cyclist and
              motorist
              > and provide better legal protections for motorist carelessness. If
              > there are little funds to widen a road and writing loosely, I would
              > suggest having bike lanes between intersections with well placed
              > SHARROWS as one gets closer to the intersection. I would like some
              > signage that reminds motorists/cyclists to take the lane in tricky
              > situations such as forks in the road. If the road is really narrow,
              > then a SHARROW would be the only facilities answer (maybe a sign
              > reading "cyclists take the lane"?).
              >
              > Three, for major arterials, I generally lean towards bike lanes
              and/or
              > wide shoulders. Erika and I were a little surprised when the Santa
              Fe
              > Century took us onto I-25. However, traveling on the interstate was
              > rather pleasant due to the massive shoulder that was relatively
              debris
              > free. I would use bike lanes to coordinate high-speed traffic with
              > cyclists at intersections/merges (avoiding right-turn-lanes/exit
              ramps
              > by moving the cyclist left) and continue to use SHARROWS at places
              > when the environment demands a slower speed.
              >
              > Four, I think that there need to be some reminders that cyclists
              > should move left when making a left turn or avoiding bike lane
              debris.
              > More generally, who has right of way in some of the more tricky
              road
              > environments.
              >
              > Last comment: I am convinced that as more cyclists take to the road,
              > the safer it becomes for cyclists. Mainly due to motorist
              habituation
              > and greater general acceptability of road cyclists. So encouraging
              > more cyclists could probably have a significant effect on safe
              cycling
              > as well.
              >
              > Where is Barry? From forum conversations, he is more familiar with
              > the practical issues than me.
              >
              > -G
              >
              > P.S. I have not come to many conclusions about cycling in inclement
              > weather and its interaction with cycling facilities. That is, the
              > discussion above doesn't really consider its effects; i.e., what
              > happens when the bike lane is covered in snow?
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, A R <statisticschick@>
              wrote:
              > >
              > > I have to agree that while I initially loved bike lanes when I
              > started riding, I quickly began to see their limitations. I
              > frequently use bike lane routes in and around DC. The bike lane
              along
              > 5th Street NW (near the McMillan Resevoir) is great because there's
              no
              > parking around there, nor are there any buses that use this route.
              > However, I've been seeing more and more debris in this bike lane.
              > Just this morning I swerved to avoid some debris and almost ran
              into a
              > car. The bike lane on 14th Street NW is constantly blocked by
              > illegally parked cars and bus drivers don't even look before moving
              in
              > and out of the bike lane on this road.
              > >
              > > I do think bike lanes have some positive attributes. First,
              they
              > get people on the road. I know several people who started bike
              > commuting in my neighborhood only after the bike lane was added to
              5th
              > Street NW. In addition, they seem to make motorists more aware of
              > cyclists. The bike lanes sort of affirm that cyclists belong on the
              > road too. But that's where their positive attributes seem to end.
              > >
              > > So what solution should we be advocating for?
              > >
              > > AR
              > >
              > >
              > > Geof Gee <geoffreygee@> wrote:
              > >
              > > You forgot to mention the debris that collects in bike lanes as
              well
              > > as the occasional lane that puts you an awful position -- like to
              the
              > > right of a right turn lane or fork (such at Military Road).
              > >
              > > Although some are well designed and I gather improve our general
              > > situation.
              > >
              > > -G
              > >
              > > --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, Live The_Dream
              > > <livethedream68@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Cycle lanes, bike paths, cycle routes - call them what you
              like -
              > > many cyclists, myself included, hate using them!
              > > >
              > > > Surprised?
              > > >
              > > > Here is a list of why...
              > > >
              > > > ...and you can add to it BikeWashingtonDC, please do so:
              > > >
              > > > - need to constantly swerve in and out avoiding the potholes
              and curbs
              > > > - full of wandering pedestrians
              > > > - bus drivers pull in anywhere they want and let people off
              buses
              > > who wander straight into the lane
              > > > - cars are always parked on it, or pull in and have to wait to
              > > open the gates to their house
              > > >
              > > > LIVE the DREAM
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > icoleman1 <ibcoleman@> wrote:
              > > > --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, A R
              > > <statisticschick@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > While there are certainly some bad, aggressive drivers out
              there,
              > > > > the vast majority probably have no intention of hurting a
              > > > > cyclist.[...]Even three years ago, I rarely encountered a
              motorist
              > > > > who made any effort not to run me off the road.
              > > >
              > > > These two statements seem contradictory. :)
              > > >
              > > > I don't see most drivers as being malevolent--although they are
              > > > definitely out there. Most just don't pay much attention.
              > > >
              > > > That's why taking the lane (when necessary) is so important. I'd
              > > > rather have someone slightly peeved at not being able to pass
              > > > immediately than run me off the road through carelessness.
              > > >
              > > > --ic
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ---------------------------------
              > > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see
              > what's on, when.
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
            • Dave Salovesh
              ... IF that was the law... In DC we don t have such luxuries... ... I don t think ignorance is the usual of infractions. I do think lack of enforcement and low
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 1, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Peter Saint James wrote:
                > Adequate law enforcement so that every auto parked in a bike lane
                > gets towed.
                >
                >
                IF that was the law... In DC we don't have such luxuries...
                > Drivers license testing that requires applicant to answer correctly
                > at least 200 question on the written exam, 80 percent of which are
                > about right of way and half of those about pedestrians and
                > cyclists. And the requirement that license holders take the test
                > over again whenever they renew their license. That way motorists
                > will have to know the law to drive.
                >
                >
                I don't think ignorance is the usual of infractions. I do think lack of
                enforcement and low consequences work together to make the laws weak.
                Drivers opt to ignore the laws, knowing the chance of getting caught is
                small and the fines are trivial. Who could reasonably object to high
                fines and loss of driving privileges for blatant and repeat offenses?
                Yes, Virginians, I'm looking at you...
              • Geof Gee
                Hah! Very good. Although I think that there was a lot of misinformation about the laws that provoked the initial backlash. Once people have their minds set,
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 1, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hah! Very good. Although I think that there was a lot of
                  misinformation about the laws that provoked the initial backlash.
                  Once people have their minds set, it can be difficult to change their
                  minds.

                  -G

                  > Who could reasonably object to high fines and loss of driving
                  privileges for blatant and repeat offenses?
                  > Yes, Virginians, I'm looking at you...
                  >
                • frickercycle
                  ... While I agree that lax enforcement (or no enforcement) and trivial fines are a big part of the problem, I do think ignorance is a HUGE part of the problem.
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 2, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    It has thus far been said:

                    > > Drivers license testing that requires applicant to answer correctly
                    > > at least 200 question on the written exam, 80 percent of which are
                    > > about right of way and half of those about pedestrians and
                    > > cyclists. And the requirement that license holders take the test
                    > > over again whenever they renew their license. That way motorists
                    > > will have to know the law to drive.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > I don't think ignorance is the usual of infractions. I do think lack of
                    > enforcement and low consequences work together to make the laws weak.
                    > Drivers opt to ignore the laws, knowing the chance of getting caught is
                    > small and the fines are trivial.

                    While I agree that lax enforcement (or no enforcement) and trivial
                    fines are a big part of the problem, I do think ignorance is a HUGE
                    part of the problem. How many times has someone shouted at you "get
                    on the sidewalk"? Very few motorists have any clue about the Uniform
                    Vehicle Code and its implications, or any laws regarding bicycles on
                    roads. I think the idea of requiring recurring written tests as the
                    earlier poster suggested is a great idea. Now, just try selling it to
                    all those folks who have to go to the DMV ever few years to renew
                    their licenses. Like many measures we cyclists would like to see, I
                    fear it would die pretty quickly in the legislative process.

                    >Who could reasonably object to high
                    > fines and loss of driving privileges for blatant and repeat offenses?
                    > Yes, Virginians, I'm looking at you...

                    Don't look at me, I'm one of the Virginians who thinks those new fines
                    are a great idea. But the recent hue and cry over them just
                    reinforces my point above... the moment anyone proposes required
                    recurring testing on law, I guarantee you motorists and some
                    legislators will scream.

                    Tim
                  • bowmandj@aol.com
                    Additional testing would cost money which the states do not have/would not want to take away from other programs. The trend is keeping people out of the DMV.
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 2, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Additional testing would cost money which the states do not have/would not want to take away from other programs. The trend is keeping people out of the DMV. I've only had to set foot in one?once since I moved to Virginia -- even when I moved after that, I updated my address online at the DMV's website and they mailed me a new address card to carry with my license.

                      Not to mention, when I first moved to this area I lived in DC, so I got my license there, and for that I did have to take a written test. Most of it was on parking regulations. Which of course is a joke, considering the ridiculous amount of illegal parking in the city.

                      You can beat the rules into people's heads, that doesn't mean they will follow them.


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: frickercycle <tymncycle@...>
                      To: BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 8:28 am
                      Subject: [BikeWashingtonDC] Re: Hit by a car today at Chain Bridge






                      It has thus far been said:

                      > > Drivers license testing that requires applicant to answer correctly
                      > > at least 200 question on the written exam, 80 percent of which are
                      > > about right of way and half of those about pedestrians and
                      > > cyclists. And the requirement that license holders take the test
                      > > over again whenever they renew their license. That way motorists
                      > > will have to know the law to drive.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > I don't think ignorance is the usual of infractions. I do think lack of
                      > enforcement and low consequences work together to make the laws weak.
                      > Drivers opt to ignore the laws, knowing the chance of getting caught is
                      > small and the fines are trivial.

                      While I agree that lax enforcement (or no enforcement) and trivial
                      fines are a big part of the problem, I do think ignorance is a HUGE
                      part of the problem. How many times has someone shouted at you "get
                      on the sidewalk"? Very few motorists have any clue about the Uniform
                      Vehicle Code and its implications, or any laws regarding bicycles on
                      roads. I think the idea of requiring recurring written tests as the
                      earlier poster suggested is a great idea. Now, just try selling it to
                      all those folks who have to go to the DMV ever few years to renew
                      their licenses. Like many measures we cyclists would like to see, I
                      fear it would die pretty quickly in the legislative process.

                      >Who could reasonably object to high
                      > fines and loss of driving privileges for blatant and repeat offenses?
                      > Yes, Virginians, I'm looking at you...

                      Don't look at me, I'm one of the Virginians who thinks those new fines
                      are a great idea. But the recent hue and cry over them just
                      reinforces my point above... the moment anyone proposes required
                      recurring testing on law, I guarantee you motorists and some
                      legislators will scream.

                      Tim





                      ________________________________________________________________________
                      AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • A R
                      In addition to Davis, some other cities that recently made me envious include Austin, TX; Madison, WI; Seattle; and (of all places) Phoenix!! The areas
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 2, 2007
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                        In addition to Davis, some other cities that recently made me envious include Austin, TX; Madison, WI; Seattle; and (of all places) Phoenix!! The areas outside of Phoenix (Casa Grande in particular) have huge luxurious bike lanes (distanced from traffic and pedestrian areas) on many major roads. Despite the intense heat, I saw many people cycling on these flat, nicely paved roads. West Des Moines Iowa also had a nice bike path system set up using tunnels for cyclists and pedestrians to avoid busy intersections. While not perfect, these paths were very wide and had signs reminding pedestrians to stay to the right (which I found people to strictly obey).

                        I don't think DC is horrible, but it's not great either. Things could be vastly improved if law enforcement made it a priority to pursue crimes against cyclists.

                        AR


                        John PIckett <rootchopper@...> wrote:
                        I would point out that for all its shortcomings the DC area is actual
                        a pretty good place to ride. Any city with an old road network is
                        going to have issues accomodating bikes in an auto dominant culture.
                        People here in DC generally have an accepting attutude toward
                        bicyclists. In other places (Missouri and western Pennsylvania come
                        to mind) bicyclists serve as beer can targets and dog prey.

                        But if you want to feel really envious go to Davis California. It is
                        simply amazing.

                        -- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, "Geof Gee" <geoffreygee@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Oh boy ... I can't remember the last time someone gave me carte
                        > blanche to opine! ;-)
                        >
                        > Not that AR or anyone else here suggested that there is a single
                        > solution; but I believe that different environments and cost
                        > constraints result in different optimal solutions. A real issue,
                        > however, is that data supporting one type of facility over another,
                        in
                        > my opinion, is lacking.
                        >
                        > Believe it or not, below is an attempt to keep things clear yet
                        brief.
                        >
                        > One, I believe that traffic calming measures improve the cycling
                        > environment considerably without affecting motorist travel times
                        > significantly. In other words, many motorists speed when there
                        really
                        > is no point and it increases the danger to everyone. With the
                        caveat
                        > that I am not that familiar with their accounting costs, I also like
                        > red light/speeding cameras for this activity (I thought that they
                        paid
                        > for themselves from the municipality's standpoint; but that might
                        be a
                        > rumor). I support a lot of what Peter wrote as well given that the
                        > enforcement was not draconian. I will add that stopping impaired
                        > driving (lack of sleep, intoxication, and so on) should be a major
                        > objective. In other words, there are some practicalities of city
                        > traffic that we all need to deal with but if we can "smooth the
                        edges"
                        > and take care of the worst offenders, in my opinion, we would see a
                        > dramatic improvement.
                        >
                        > Two, I agree with AR that people generally like bike lanes for these
                        > semi-arterials (13th/14th ST) with somewhat aggressive city
                        traffic.
                        > Again writing as a layperson, I imagine that the cost of rebuilding
                        > these streets to be more accommodating for cyclists would be
                        > prohibitive in many instances. If there are funds to make the
                        street
                        > wider to incorporate a wide outside lane with big SHARROWS, then I
                        > think that is my first preference. My preference isn't very strong
                        > however, over a well-maintained bike lane and if more evidence is
                        > found, I can be convinced otherwise. Note that my preference for a
                        > SHARROW over a bike lane is conditioned on a lot of environmental
                        > factors. For instance, if a road is relatively dense and has good
                        > visibility at intersections, I would pick the bike lane since I
                        think
                        > that is would provide a better flow for both the cyclist and
                        motorist
                        > and provide better legal protections for motorist carelessness. If
                        > there are little funds to widen a road and writing loosely, I would
                        > suggest having bike lanes between intersections with well placed
                        > SHARROWS as one gets closer to the intersection. I would like some
                        > signage that reminds motorists/cyclists to take the lane in tricky
                        > situations such as forks in the road. If the road is really narrow,
                        > then a SHARROW would be the only facilities answer (maybe a sign
                        > reading "cyclists take the lane"?).
                        >
                        > Three, for major arterials, I generally lean towards bike lanes
                        and/or
                        > wide shoulders. Erika and I were a little surprised when the Santa
                        Fe
                        > Century took us onto I-25. However, traveling on the interstate was
                        > rather pleasant due to the massive shoulder that was relatively
                        debris
                        > free. I would use bike lanes to coordinate high-speed traffic with
                        > cyclists at intersections/merges (avoiding right-turn-lanes/exit
                        ramps
                        > by moving the cyclist left) and continue to use SHARROWS at places
                        > when the environment demands a slower speed.
                        >
                        > Four, I think that there need to be some reminders that cyclists
                        > should move left when making a left turn or avoiding bike lane
                        debris.
                        > More generally, who has right of way in some of the more tricky
                        road
                        > environments.
                        >
                        > Last comment: I am convinced that as more cyclists take to the road,
                        > the safer it becomes for cyclists. Mainly due to motorist
                        habituation
                        > and greater general acceptability of road cyclists. So encouraging
                        > more cyclists could probably have a significant effect on safe
                        cycling
                        > as well.
                        >
                        > Where is Barry? From forum conversations, he is more familiar with
                        > the practical issues than me.
                        >
                        > -G
                        >
                        > P.S. I have not come to many conclusions about cycling in inclement
                        > weather and its interaction with cycling facilities. That is, the
                        > discussion above doesn't really consider its effects; i.e., what
                        > happens when the bike lane is covered in snow?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, A R <statisticschick@>
                        wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I have to agree that while I initially loved bike lanes when I
                        > started riding, I quickly began to see their limitations. I
                        > frequently use bike lane routes in and around DC. The bike lane
                        along
                        > 5th Street NW (near the McMillan Resevoir) is great because there's
                        no
                        > parking around there, nor are there any buses that use this route.
                        > However, I've been seeing more and more debris in this bike lane.
                        > Just this morning I swerved to avoid some debris and almost ran
                        into a
                        > car. The bike lane on 14th Street NW is constantly blocked by
                        > illegally parked cars and bus drivers don't even look before moving
                        in
                        > and out of the bike lane on this road.
                        > >
                        > > I do think bike lanes have some positive attributes. First,
                        they
                        > get people on the road. I know several people who started bike
                        > commuting in my neighborhood only after the bike lane was added to
                        5th
                        > Street NW. In addition, they seem to make motorists more aware of
                        > cyclists. The bike lanes sort of affirm that cyclists belong on the
                        > road too. But that's where their positive attributes seem to end.
                        > >
                        > > So what solution should we be advocating for?
                        > >
                        > > AR
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Geof Gee <geoffreygee@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > You forgot to mention the debris that collects in bike lanes as
                        well
                        > > as the occasional lane that puts you an awful position -- like to
                        the
                        > > right of a right turn lane or fork (such at Military Road).
                        > >
                        > > Although some are well designed and I gather improve our general
                        > > situation.
                        > >
                        > > -G
                        > >
                        > > --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, Live The_Dream
                        > > <livethedream68@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Cycle lanes, bike paths, cycle routes - call them what you
                        like -
                        > > many cyclists, myself included, hate using them!
                        > > >
                        > > > Surprised?
                        > > >
                        > > > Here is a list of why...
                        > > >
                        > > > ...and you can add to it BikeWashingtonDC, please do so:
                        > > >
                        > > > - need to constantly swerve in and out avoiding the potholes
                        and curbs
                        > > > - full of wandering pedestrians
                        > > > - bus drivers pull in anywhere they want and let people off
                        buses
                        > > who wander straight into the lane
                        > > > - cars are always parked on it, or pull in and have to wait to
                        > > open the gates to their house
                        > > >
                        > > > LIVE the DREAM
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > icoleman1 <ibcoleman@> wrote:
                        > > > --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, A R
                        > > <statisticschick@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > While there are certainly some bad, aggressive drivers out
                        there,
                        > > > > the vast majority probably have no intention of hurting a
                        > > > > cyclist.[...]Even three years ago, I rarely encountered a
                        motorist
                        > > > > who made any effort not to run me off the road.
                        > > >
                        > > > These two statements seem contradictory. :)
                        > > >
                        > > > I don't see most drivers as being malevolent--although they are
                        > > > definitely out there. Most just don't pay much attention.
                        > > >
                        > > > That's why taking the lane (when necessary) is so important. I'd
                        > > > rather have someone slightly peeved at not being able to pass
                        > > > immediately than run me off the road through carelessness.
                        > > >
                        > > > --ic
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ---------------------------------
                        > > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ---------------------------------
                        > > Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see
                        > what's on, when.
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >






                        ---------------------------------
                        Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                        Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • A R
                        But didn t the City Council pass a law that does in fact make it illegal to park in bike lanes? Granted, it s almost impossible to get the cops to enforce it,
                        Message 11 of 27 , Aug 2, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          But didn't the City Council pass a law that does in fact make it illegal to park in bike lanes? Granted, it's almost impossible to get the cops to enforce it, but....

                          AR

                          Dave Salovesh <darsal@...> wrote:
                          Peter Saint James wrote:
                          > Adequate law enforcement so that every auto parked in a bike lane
                          > gets towed.
                          >
                          >
                          IF that was the law... In DC we don't have such luxuries...
                          > Drivers license testing that requires applicant to answer correctly
                          > at least 200 question on the written exam, 80 percent of which are
                          > about right of way and half of those about pedestrians and
                          > cyclists. And the requirement that license holders take the test
                          > over again whenever they renew their license. That way motorists
                          > will have to know the law to drive.
                          >
                          >
                          I don't think ignorance is the usual of infractions. I do think lack of
                          enforcement and low consequences work together to make the laws weak.
                          Drivers opt to ignore the laws, knowing the chance of getting caught is
                          small and the fines are trivial. Who could reasonably object to high
                          fines and loss of driving privileges for blatant and repeat offenses?
                          Yes, Virginians, I'm looking at you...





                          ---------------------------------
                          Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Michael Plakus
                          Additional testing is easy to pay for, just charge the applicant. A drivers license is too easy to procure in the US in the first place. Germany and Japan
                          Message 12 of 27 , Aug 2, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Additional testing is easy to pay for, just charge the applicant. A drivers
                            license is too easy to procure in the US in the first place. Germany and
                            Japan definitely have their act together on that score--last I heard the
                            cost of acquiring a license in those countries was around $2000 or more.
                            I'll see if I can find a citation for that.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bowmandj@...
                            Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 10:58 AM
                            To: BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [BikeWashingtonDC] Re: Hit by a car today at Chain Bridge


                            Additional testing would cost money which the states do not have/would not
                            want to take away from other programs. The trend is keeping people out of
                            the DMV. I've only had to set foot in one?once since I moved to Virginia --
                            even when I moved after that, I updated my address online at the DMV's
                            website and they mailed me a new address card to carry with my license.

                            Not to mention, when I first moved to this area I lived in DC, so I got my
                            license there, and for that I did have to take a written test. Most of it
                            was on parking regulations. Which of course is a joke, considering the
                            ridiculous amount of illegal parking in the city.

                            You can beat the rules into people's heads, that doesn't mean they will
                            follow them.


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: frickercycle <tymncycle@...>
                            To: BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 8:28 am
                            Subject: [BikeWashingtonDC] Re: Hit by a car today at Chain Bridge






                            It has thus far been said:

                            > > Drivers license testing that requires applicant to answer correctly
                            > > at least 200 question on the written exam, 80 percent of which are
                            > > about right of way and half of those about pedestrians and
                            > > cyclists. And the requirement that license holders take the test
                            > > over again whenever they renew their license. That way motorists
                            > > will have to know the law to drive.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > I don't think ignorance is the usual of infractions. I do think lack of
                            > enforcement and low consequences work together to make the laws weak.
                            > Drivers opt to ignore the laws, knowing the chance of getting caught is
                            > small and the fines are trivial.

                            While I agree that lax enforcement (or no enforcement) and trivial
                            fines are a big part of the problem, I do think ignorance is a HUGE
                            part of the problem. How many times has someone shouted at you "get
                            on the sidewalk"? Very few motorists have any clue about the Uniform
                            Vehicle Code and its implications, or any laws regarding bicycles on
                            roads. I think the idea of requiring recurring written tests as the
                            earlier poster suggested is a great idea. Now, just try selling it to
                            all those folks who have to go to the DMV ever few years to renew
                            their licenses. Like many measures we cyclists would like to see, I
                            fear it would die pretty quickly in the legislative process.

                            >Who could reasonably object to high
                            > fines and loss of driving privileges for blatant and repeat offenses?
                            > Yes, Virginians, I'm looking at you...

                            Don't look at me, I'm one of the Virginians who thinks those new fines
                            are a great idea. But the recent hue and cry over them just
                            reinforces my point above... the moment anyone proposes required
                            recurring testing on law, I guarantee you motorists and some
                            legislators will scream.

                            Tim





                            ________________________________________________________________________
                            AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from
                            AOL at AOL.com.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            BikeWashingtonDC-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • Barry Childress
                            I just saw this, basically I am not familiar with the roads in question so I have not commented. But going back to the beginning of the thread it sounds to me
                            Message 13 of 27 , Aug 2, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I just saw this, basically I am not familiar with the roads in question so I have not commented. But going back to the beginning of the thread it sounds to me like it is totally irresponsible of VDOT to allow right hand turns on red across a bikeway. If sight lines are poor then that is another point for not allowing a right on red as it forces the drivers’ attention far away from people using the bikeway.

                              There has been some discussion on what is really the larger issue, not to disagree with those comments but even larger issues come down to making a big stink about a specific problems (e.g. three pit bulls attacked people in the last month so government gets involved with the general issue.) For me the reason why we can get the larger issues addressed because we are not dealing with the individual cases and problems. Yes dealing with one case at a time seems like trying to put out a fire with a thimble full of water at a time but in all things government the squeaky wheel gets the grease. It really comes down to repeatedly putting government to task.

                              No one here should doubt the effectiveness of on-line advocacy. Twenty emails hitting the same office on the same subject gets attention! It does not take much on our part to be effective. The more we as collective individuals can take charge of the individual local problems the easer it would be for organizations like WABA to address the larger and more general issues.

                              The general steps for on-line advocacy:
                              An incident that highlights that things are not right, fair or just
                              Identify the problem(s)
                              Identify a solution(s)
                              Identify who can implement the solution
                              Write a letter (email) cc’ing your elected reps
                              Request that others do the same.

                              We all have the power to change the world and we are all part of something larger then ourselves. If you don’t do something then nobody does any thing, it is as simple as that.

                              -=Barry=-
                            • Geof Gee
                              Just to add another tidbit, while the cost of acquiring a license is much higher, I recall that their insurance costs are much lower. But this is something in
                              Message 14 of 27 , Aug 2, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Just to add another tidbit, while the cost of acquiring a license is
                                much higher, I recall that their insurance costs are much lower. But
                                this is something in the deep recesses of the mind regarding a
                                conversation during driver's ed. Given my age, the state of reality
                                could be quite different today.

                                -G

                                --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Plakus"
                                <michael.plakus@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Additional testing is easy to pay for, just charge the applicant. A
                                drivers
                                > license is too easy to procure in the US in the first place.
                                Germany and
                                > Japan definitely have their act together on that score--last I heard the
                                > cost of acquiring a license in those countries was around $2000 or more.
                                > I'll see if I can find a citation for that.
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com
                                > [mailto:BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bowmandj@...
                                > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 10:58 AM
                                > To: BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [BikeWashingtonDC] Re: Hit by a car today at Chain Bridge
                                >
                                >
                                > Additional testing would cost money which the states do not
                                have/would not
                                > want to take away from other programs. The trend is keeping people
                                out of
                                > the DMV. I've only had to set foot in one?once since I moved to
                                Virginia --
                                > even when I moved after that, I updated my address online at the DMV's
                                > website and they mailed me a new address card to carry with my license.
                                >
                                > Not to mention, when I first moved to this area I lived in DC, so I
                                got my
                                > license there, and for that I did have to take a written test. Most
                                of it
                                > was on parking regulations. Which of course is a joke, considering the
                                > ridiculous amount of illegal parking in the city.
                                >
                                > You can beat the rules into people's heads, that doesn't mean they will
                                > follow them.
                                >
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: frickercycle <tymncycle@...>
                                > To: BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 8:28 am
                                > Subject: [BikeWashingtonDC] Re: Hit by a car today at Chain Bridge
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > It has thus far been said:
                                >
                                > > > Drivers license testing that requires applicant to answer correctly
                                > > > at least 200 question on the written exam, 80 percent of which are
                                > > > about right of way and half of those about pedestrians and
                                > > > cyclists. And the requirement that license holders take the test
                                > > > over again whenever they renew their license. That way motorists
                                > > > will have to know the law to drive.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > I don't think ignorance is the usual of infractions. I do think
                                lack of
                                > > enforcement and low consequences work together to make the laws weak.
                                > > Drivers opt to ignore the laws, knowing the chance of getting
                                caught is
                                > > small and the fines are trivial.
                                >
                                > While I agree that lax enforcement (or no enforcement) and trivial
                                > fines are a big part of the problem, I do think ignorance is a HUGE
                                > part of the problem. How many times has someone shouted at you "get
                                > on the sidewalk"? Very few motorists have any clue about the Uniform
                                > Vehicle Code and its implications, or any laws regarding bicycles on
                                > roads. I think the idea of requiring recurring written tests as the
                                > earlier poster suggested is a great idea. Now, just try selling it to
                                > all those folks who have to go to the DMV ever few years to renew
                                > their licenses. Like many measures we cyclists would like to see, I
                                > fear it would die pretty quickly in the legislative process.
                                >
                                > >Who could reasonably object to high
                                > > fines and loss of driving privileges for blatant and repeat offenses?
                                > > Yes, Virginians, I'm looking at you...
                                >
                                > Don't look at me, I'm one of the Virginians who thinks those new fines
                                > are a great idea. But the recent hue and cry over them just
                                > reinforces my point above... the moment anyone proposes required
                                > recurring testing on law, I guarantee you motorists and some
                                > legislators will scream.
                                >
                                > Tim
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________________________________________________
                                > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
                                free from
                                > AOL at AOL.com.
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > BikeWashingtonDC-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                              • bowmandj@aol.com
                                If you tried to charge that much here, people would say it s discrimation against the poor. They tried to force seniors to periodically take a driving test in
                                Message 15 of 27 , Aug 2, 2007
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                                  If you tried to charge that much here, people would say it's discrimation against the poor.

                                  They tried to force seniors to periodically take a driving test in DC and it was struck down as discriminatory.?


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Michael Plakus <michael.plakus@...>
                                  To: BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 12:14 pm
                                  Subject: RE: [BikeWashingtonDC] Re: Hit by a car today at Chain Bridge






                                  Additional testing is easy to pay for, just charge the applicant. A drivers
                                  license is too easy to procure in the US in the first place. Germany and
                                  Japan definitely have their act together on that score--last I heard the
                                  cost of acquiring a license in those countries was around $2000 or more.
                                  I'll see if I can find a citation for that.

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bowmandj@...
                                  Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 10:58 AM
                                  To: BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [BikeWashingtonDC] Re: Hit by a car today at Chain Bridge

                                  Additional testing would cost money which the states do not have/would not
                                  want to take away from other programs. The trend is keeping people out of
                                  the DMV. I've only had to set foot in one?once since I moved to Virginia --
                                  even when I moved after that, I updated my address online at the DMV's
                                  website and they mailed me a new address card to carry with my license.

                                  Not to mention, when I first moved to this area I lived in DC, so I got my
                                  license there, and for that I did have to take a written test. Most of it
                                  was on parking regulations. Which of course is a joke, considering the
                                  ridiculous amount of illegal parking in the city.

                                  You can beat the rules into people's heads, that doesn't mean they will
                                  follow them.

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: frickercycle <tymncycle@...>
                                  To: BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 8:28 am
                                  Subject: [BikeWashingtonDC] Re: Hit by a car today at Chain Bridge

                                  It has thus far been said:

                                  > > Drivers license testing that requires applicant to answer correctly
                                  > > at least 200 question on the written exam, 80 percent of which are
                                  > > about right of way and half of those about pedestrians and
                                  > > cyclists. And the requirement that license holders take the test
                                  > > over again whenever they renew their license. That way motorists
                                  > > will have to know the law to drive.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > I don't think ignorance is the usual of infractions. I do think lack of
                                  > enforcement and low consequences work together to make the laws weak.
                                  > Drivers opt to ignore the laws, knowing the chance of getting caught is
                                  > small and the fines are trivial.

                                  While I agree that lax enforcement (or no enforcement) and trivial
                                  fines are a big part of the problem, I do think ignorance is a HUGE
                                  part of the problem. How many times has someone shouted at you "get
                                  on the sidewalk"? Very few motorists have any clue about the Uniform
                                  Vehicle Code and its implications, or any laws regarding bicycles on
                                  roads. I think the idea of requiring recurring written tests as the
                                  earlier poster suggested is a great idea. Now, just try selling it to
                                  all those folks who have to go to the DMV ever few years to renew
                                  their licenses. Like many measures we cyclists would like to see, I
                                  fear it would die pretty quickly in the legislative process.

                                  >Who could reasonably object to high
                                  > fines and loss of driving privileges for blatant and repeat offenses?
                                  > Yes, Virginians, I'm looking at you...

                                  Don't look at me, I'm one of the Virginians who thinks those new fines
                                  are a great idea. But the recent hue and cry over them just
                                  reinforces my point above... the moment anyone proposes required
                                  recurring testing on law, I guarantee you motorists and some
                                  legislators will scream.

                                  Tim

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                                • Geof Gee
                                  I thought that this was an interesting blip on wide outside lanes and automobile-bicycle-interaction in general.
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Aug 6, 2007
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                                    I thought that this was an interesting blip on wide outside lanes and
                                    automobile-bicycle-interaction in general.

                                    http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/passing/index.htm

                                    -G

                                    --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, "John PIckett"
                                    <rootchopper@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I am no fan of bike lanes either for the same reasons that you
                                    > state. (Bike lanes in door zones are another.)
                                    >
                                    > I like the concept of sharrows much better. There are few (albeit
                                    > some misplaced) on Union Street in Old Town, but I'd like to them
                                    > instead of bike lanes. They send a clear message to cars that bikes
                                    > belong in the lane (not in some separate place on the road. (I know
                                    > that bikes belong in almost any right hand lane but many drivers
                                    > don't recognize that.) Sharrows also allow skittish cyclists to have
                                    > a little more confidence about being on the road.
                                    >
                                    > -- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, A R <statisticschick@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I have to agree that while I initially loved bike lanes when I
                                    > started riding, I quickly began to see their limitations. I
                                    > frequently use bike lane routes in and around DC. The bike lane
                                    > along 5th Street NW (near the McMillan Resevoir) is great because
                                    > there's no parking around there, nor are there any buses that use
                                    > this route. However, I've been seeing more and more debris in this
                                    > bike lane. Just this morning I swerved to avoid some debris and
                                    > almost ran into a car. The bike lane on 14th Street NW is constantly
                                    > blocked by illegally parked cars and bus drivers don't even look
                                    > before moving in and out of the bike lane on this road.
                                    > >
                                    > > I do think bike lanes have some positive attributes. First, they
                                    > get people on the road. I know several people who started bike
                                    > commuting in my neighborhood only after the bike lane was added to
                                    > 5th Street NW. In addition, they seem to make motorists more aware
                                    > of cyclists. The bike lanes sort of affirm that cyclists belong on
                                    > the road too. But that's where their positive attributes seem to
                                    > end.
                                    > >
                                    > > So what solution should we be advocating for?
                                    > >
                                    > > AR
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Geof Gee <geoffreygee@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > You forgot to mention the debris that collects in bike lanes as well
                                    > > as the occasional lane that puts you an awful position -- like to
                                    > the
                                    > > right of a right turn lane or fork (such at Military Road).
                                    > >
                                    > > Although some are well designed and I gather improve our general
                                    > > situation.
                                    > >
                                    > > -G
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, Live The_Dream
                                    > > <livethedream68@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Cycle lanes, bike paths, cycle routes - call them what you like -
                                    > > many cyclists, myself included, hate using them!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Surprised?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Here is a list of why...
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ...and you can add to it BikeWashingtonDC, please do so:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > - need to constantly swerve in and out avoiding the potholes and
                                    > curbs
                                    > > > - full of wandering pedestrians
                                    > > > - bus drivers pull in anywhere they want and let people off buses
                                    > > who wander straight into the lane
                                    > > > - cars are always parked on it, or pull in and have to wait to
                                    > > open the gates to their house
                                    > > >
                                    > > > LIVE the DREAM
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > icoleman1 <ibcoleman@> wrote:
                                    > > > --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, A R
                                    > > <statisticschick@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > While there are certainly some bad, aggressive drivers out
                                    > there,
                                    > > > > the vast majority probably have no intention of hurting a
                                    > > > > cyclist.[...]Even three years ago, I rarely encountered a
                                    > motorist
                                    > > > > who made any effort not to run me off the road.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > These two statements seem contradictory. :)
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I don't see most drivers as being malevolent--although they are
                                    > > > definitely out there. Most just don't pay much attention.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > That's why taking the lane (when necessary) is so important. I'd
                                    > > > rather have someone slightly peeved at not being able to pass
                                    > > > immediately than run me off the road through carelessness.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --ic
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see
                                    > what's on, when.
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    >
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