Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Anyone out commuting today?

Expand Messages
  • mmurphy_va
    If so, hats off. Rain and +-32 degrees is far worse than snow, IMO.
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 1, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      If so, hats off. Rain and +-32 degrees is far worse than snow, IMO.
    • Michael Plakus
      There s no such thing as bad weather, only inadequate clothing. By the time I get home tonight I will have in 19.35 miles unless the motorists create a detour
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 1, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        There's no such thing as bad weather, only inadequate clothing. By
        the time I get home tonight I will have in 19.35 miles unless the
        motorists create a detour in which case it could be further. Showers
        Pass rain gear and Planet Bike Cascadia fenders--worth their weight in
        gold.

        --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, "mmurphy_va" <mmurphy_va@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > If so, hats off. Rain and +-32 degrees is far worse than snow, IMO.
        >
      • David Zuk
        I ll be riding home. This weather don t scare me. Michael Plakus wrote: There s no such thing as bad
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 1, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          I'll be riding home. This weather don't scare me.

          Michael Plakus <michael.plakus@...> wrote:
          There's no such thing as bad weather, only inadequate clothing. By
          the time I get home tonight I will have in 19.35 miles unless the
          motorists create a detour in which case it could be further. Showers
          Pass rain gear and Planet Bike Cascadia fenders--worth their weight in
          gold.

          --- In BikeWashingtonDC@ yahoogroups. com, "mmurphy_va" <mmurphy_va@ ...>
          wrote:
          >
          > If so, hats off. Rain and +-32 degrees is far worse than snow, IMO.
          >




          ____________________________________________

          "to live a life fulfilled, pick one subject and make it your passion."


          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

        • DancesWithCars
          on a late schedule, so no problem, clear by the time i left :-} crit mass was fun. asylum probably served me rat, instead of steak, but c est la vie. no gang
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 2, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            on a late schedule, so no problem, clear by the time i left :-}

            crit mass was fun. asylum probably served me rat, instead of steak,
            but c'est la vie.

            no gang problem coming back, must have had super bowl on their minds.
            but the wizards didn't do well according to the other Metro riders

            being seen is an issue with their little windshield wipers, and
            sometimes i wish i had had a face mask and snorkel 8-j


            On Feb 1, 2008 12:08 PM, David Zuk <climber8850@...> wrote:

            >
            > I'll be riding home. This weather don't scare me.
            >
            >
            > Michael Plakus <michael.plakus@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > There's no such thing as bad weather, only inadequate clothing. By
            > the time I get home tonight I will have in 19.35 miles unless the
            > motorists create a detour in which case it could be further. Showers
            > Pass rain gear and Planet Bike Cascadia fenders--worth their weight in
            > gold.
            >
            > --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, "mmurphy_va" <mmurphy_va@...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > If so, hats off. Rain and +-32 degrees is far worse than snow, IMO.
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ____________________________________________
            >
            > "to live a life fulfilled, pick one subject and make it your passion."
            >
            > ________________________________
            > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



            --
            DancesWithCars
            leave the wolves behind ;-)
          • Michael Plakus
            Turned out my ride home was longer than normal. The heavy rains had the Paint Branch running so high I couldn t use it to get under Rt 1 or the Green Line. I
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 2, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Turned out my ride home was longer than normal. The heavy rains had
              the Paint Branch running so high I couldn't use it to get under Rt 1
              or the Green Line. I had to resort to sidewalks for about 75 ft to
              get to a curb cut to get onto Rt 1 where I had to watch out for this
              idiot who was so intent on me he ignored the red light he ran.
              Fortunately for him it was at Lakeland Rd rather than Paint Branch
              Parkway where such inattentiveness is a guaranteed ambulance ride.
              With the Green Line/CSX underpass under water I routed north to the
              Berwyn Rd corkscrew bridge. Had this been summer I would have tried
              to ford this slack water underpass (Rt 1 is fast water) but I didn't
              relish the idea of completing seven more miles with boots that had
              been dipped in ice water.

              --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Plakus"
              <michael.plakus@...> wrote:
              >
              > There's no such thing as bad weather, only inadequate clothing. By
              > the time I get home tonight I will have in 19.35 miles unless the
              > motorists create a detour in which case it could be further.
              Showers
              > Pass rain gear and Planet Bike Cascadia fenders--worth their weight
              in
              > gold.
              >
              > --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, "mmurphy_va" <mmurphy_va@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > If so, hats off. Rain and +-32 degrees is far worse than snow,
              IMO.
              > >
              >
            • bowmandj@aol.com
              In contrast, when I went out to get lunch on Friday, I had to also pick up a sandwich for one of my co-workers because it was raining too much for her to go
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 2, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                In contrast, when I went out to get lunch on Friday, I had to also pick up a sandwich for one of my co-workers because it was raining too much for her to go out.



                -----Original Message-----
                From: Michael Plakus <michael.plakus@...>
                To: BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 8:06 pm
                Subject: [BikeWashingtonDC] Re: Anyone out commuting today?

                Turned out my ride home was longer than normal. The heavy rains had
                the Paint Branch running so high I couldn't use it to get under Rt 1
                or the Green Line. I had to resort to sidewalks for about 75 ft to
                get to a curb cut to get onto Rt 1 where I had to watch out for this
                idiot who was so intent on me he ignored the red light he ran.
                Fortunately for him it was at Lakeland Rd rather than Paint Branch
                Parkway where such inattentiveness is a guaranteed ambulance ride.
                With the Green Line/CSX underpass under water I routed north to the
                Berwyn Rd corkscrew bridge. Had this been summer I would have tried
                to ford this slack water underpass (Rt 1 is fast water) but I didn't
                relish the idea of completing seven more miles with boots that had
                been dipped in ice water.

                --- In BikeWashingtonDC@ yahoogroups. com, "Michael Plakus"
                <michael.plakus@ ...> wrote:
                >
                > There's no such thing as bad weather, only inadequate clothing. By
                > the time I get home tonight I will have in 19.35 miles unless the
                > motorists create a detour in which case it could be further.
                Showers
                > Pass rain gear and Planet Bike Cascadia fenders--worth their weight
                in
                > gold.
                >
                > --- In BikeWashingtonDC@ yahoogroups. com, "mmurphy_va" <mmurphy_va@ >
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > If so, hats off. Rain and +-32 degrees is far worse than snow,
                IMO.
                > >
                >


                More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!
              • Ruppolt, Charmaine
                Regarding biking in the rain on Friday - I was out there biking to work. ... Charmaine CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments contain
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 4, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Regarding biking in the rain on Friday - I was out there biking to work.
                  :) Rain in the morning but it was fine in the evening.

                  Charmaine

                  CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:
                  This e-mail and any attachments contain information from
                  the law firm of McKenna Long & Aldridge LLP, and are
                  intended solely for the use of the named recipient or
                  recipients. This e-mail may contain privileged
                  attorney/client communications or work product. Any
                  dissemination of this e-mail by anyone other than an
                  intended recipient is strictly prohibited. If you are not a
                  named recipient, you are prohibited from any further
                  viewing of the e-mail or any attachments or from making any
                  use of the e-mail or attachments. If you believe you have
                  received this e-mail in error, notify the sender
                  immediately and permanently delete the e-mail, any
                  attachments, and all copies thereof from any drives or
                  storage media and destroy any printouts of the e-mail or
                  attachments.
                • Eric Gorr
                  There seem to be many (rather) expensive products out there which will clean and lubricate your chain, but before I go out and spend the money, I would like to
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 27, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    There seem to be many (rather) expensive products out there which will
                    clean and lubricate your chain, but before I go out and spend the
                    money, I would like to know whether these speciality products, like
                    White Lightning Clean Ride Lube, are really necessary.

                    I found http://nordicgroup.us/chain/ which says that one does not need
                    to spend a lot of money in this area for good results and suggests
                    Dupont's Multi-Use Lubricant With Teflon Fluoropolymer as a good, far
                    cheaper, option for chain lubrication among many others.

                    I was just wondering what people thought about the information on this
                    site and what you really use to clean and lube your chain.



                    White Lightning Clean Ride Lube sells for $12.50 for 8oz at REI.com
                    Dupont's Multi-Use Lubricant With Teflon Fluoropolymer sells for $6.50
                    for 11oz at amazon.com
                  • Drew Park
                    Recently I spent $20 on bike cleaning and lube supplies after a muddy C&O Canal ride. A few days later I was in Advance Auto Parts and saw essentially the
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 27, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Recently I spent $20 on bike cleaning and lube supplies after a muddy C&O Canal ride.  A few days later I was in Advance Auto Parts and saw essentially the same supplies for less that $10.


                      To: BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com
                      From: mailist@...
                      Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:40:35 -0500
                      Subject: [BikeWashingtonDC] Bike Maintenance - chain cleaning & lubrication

                      There seem to be many (rather) expensive products out there which will
                      clean and lubricate your chain, but before I go out and spend the
                      money, I would like to know whether these speciality products, like
                      White Lightning Clean Ride Lube, are really necessary.

                      I found http://nordicgroup. us/chain/ which says that one does not need
                      to spend a lot of money in this area for good results and suggests
                      Dupont's Multi-Use Lubricant With Teflon Fluoropolymer as a good, far
                      cheaper, option for chain lubrication among many others.

                      I was just wondering what people thought about the information on this
                      site and what you really use to clean and lube your chain.

                      White Lightning Clean Ride Lube sells for $12.50 for 8oz at REI.com
                      Dupont's Multi-Use Lubricant With Teflon Fluoropolymer sells for $6.50
                      for 11oz at amazon.com



                      Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. Play now!
                    • Eric Gorr
                      What supplies were those exactly?
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 27, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        What supplies were those exactly?

                        On Feb 27, 2008, at 12:53 PM, Drew Park wrote:

                        > Recently I spent $20 on bike cleaning and lube supplies after a
                        > muddy C&O Canal ride. A few days later I was in Advance Auto Parts
                        > and saw essentially the same supplies for less that $10.
                        >
                        > To: BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: mailist@...
                        > Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:40:35 -0500
                        > Subject: [BikeWashingtonDC] Bike Maintenance - chain cleaning &
                        > lubrication
                        >
                        > There seem to be many (rather) expensive products out there which will
                        > clean and lubricate your chain, but before I go out and spend the
                        > money, I would like to know whether these speciality products, like
                        > White Lightning Clean Ride Lube, are really necessary.
                        >
                        > I found http://nordicgroup.us/chain/ which says that one does not need
                        > to spend a lot of money in this area for good results and suggests
                        > Dupont's Multi-Use Lubricant With Teflon Fluoropolymer as a good, far
                        > cheaper, option for chain lubrication among many others.
                        >
                        > I was just wondering what people thought about the information on this
                        > site and what you really use to clean and lube your chain.
                        >
                        > White Lightning Clean Ride Lube sells for $12.50 for 8oz at REI.com
                        > Dupont's Multi-Use Lubricant With Teflon Fluoropolymer sells for $6.50
                        > for 11oz at amazon.com
                        >
                        >
                        > Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge
                        > with star power. Play now!
                      • Charlie
                        I like the citrus cleaners. They are biodegradable, or so they say. I can t believe anything that is biodegradable can remove grease. Many use to recommend
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 27, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I like the citrus cleaners. They are biodegradable, or so they say.
                          I can't believe anything that is biodegradable can remove grease.
                          Many use to recommend Simple Green(also biodegradable) but it has been
                          shown to pit and rust chains. I also recommend Boeshield as lubricant.
                          Used by airplane manufacturers. I figure if it's good enough for
                          planes then good enough for my bike. The citrus solvents can be found
                          at the dollar store and Home Depot for a few bucks. The lube is sold
                          at some bike shops and Sears. Charlie
                          http://www.boeshield.com/

                          --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, Eric Gorr <mailist@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > There seem to be many (rather) expensive products out there which will
                          > clean and lubricate your chain, but before I go out and spend the
                          > money, I would like to know whether these speciality products, like
                          > White Lightning Clean Ride Lube, are really necessary.
                          >
                          > I found http://nordicgroup.us/chain/ which says that one does not need
                          > to spend a lot of money in this area for good results and suggests
                          > Dupont's Multi-Use Lubricant With Teflon Fluoropolymer as a good, far
                          > cheaper, option for chain lubrication among many others.
                          >
                          > I was just wondering what people thought about the information on this
                          > site and what you really use to clean and lube your chain.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > White Lightning Clean Ride Lube sells for $12.50 for 8oz at REI.com
                          > Dupont's Multi-Use Lubricant With Teflon Fluoropolymer sells for $6.50
                          > for 11oz at amazon.com
                          >
                        • Drew Park
                          The lube was a teflon based one (not TriFlow) like the Dupont one you mentioned and the degreaser/cleaner was similar. I believe the brand name was Greased
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 27, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            The lube was a teflon based one (not TriFlow) like the Dupont one you mentioned and the degreaser/cleaner was similar.  I believe the brand name was Greased Lightning

                            > From: mailist@...
                            > To: bikewashingtondc@yahoogroups.com; drew_park_guy@...
                            > Subject: Re: [BikeWashingtonDC] Bike Maintenance - chain cleaning & lubrication
                            > Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 13:27:15 -0500
                            >
                            > What supplies were those exactly?
                            >
                            > On Feb 27, 2008, at 12:53 PM, Drew Park wrote:
                            >
                            > > Recently I spent $20 on bike cleaning and lube supplies after a
                            > > muddy C&O Canal ride. A few days later I was in Advance Auto Parts
                            > > and saw essentially the same supplies for less that $10.
                            > >
                            > > To: BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com
                            > > From: mailist@...
                            > > Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:40:35 -0500
                            > > Subject: [BikeWashingtonDC] Bike Maintenance - chain cleaning &
                            > > lubrication
                            > >
                            > > There seem to be many (rather) expensive products out there which will
                            > > clean and lubricate your chain, but before I go out and spend the
                            > > money, I would like to know whether these speciality products, like
                            > > White Lightning Clean Ride Lube, are really necessary.
                            > >
                            > > I found http://nordicgroup.us/chain/ which says that one does not need
                            > > to spend a lot of money in this area for good results and suggests
                            > > Dupont's Multi-Use Lubricant With Teflon Fluoropolymer as a good, far
                            > > cheaper, option for chain lubrication among many others.
                            > >
                            > > I was just wondering what people thought about the information on this
                            > > site and what you really use to clean and lube your chain.
                            > >
                            > > White Lightning Clean Ride Lube sells for $12.50 for 8oz at REI.com
                            > > Dupont's Multi-Use Lubricant With Teflon Fluoropolymer sells for $6.50
                            > > for 11oz at amazon.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge
                            > > with star power. Play now!
                            >


                            Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. Learn more.
                          • Monica Didier
                            Looking to get a new bike. I am short and have been known to have some issues with back spasms so looking to buy or have made a profile that allows for bent
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 27, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment

                              Looking to get a new bike.  I am short and have been known to have some issues with back spasms so looking to buy or have made a profile that allows for bent and upright riding. Haven’t purchased a bike in 10 years so wondering who/where to look.   Not a speed rider, but an endurance. Looking for something lightweight for portability and comfortable for 100 mile stretches. On and off-road trail, but not mountain terrain.

                               

                              Thanks in advance for the ideas.

                               

                              Monica

                            • Geof Gee
                              Have you thought about using a dry lube? It might be more expensive that the alternatives discussed here but it is cleaner and more convenient. -G ... will
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 28, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Have you thought about using a dry lube? It might be more expensive
                                that the alternatives discussed here but it is cleaner and more
                                convenient.

                                -G

                                --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, Eric Gorr <mailist@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > There seem to be many (rather) expensive products out there which
                                will
                                > clean and lubricate your chain, but before I go out and spend the
                                > money, I would like to know whether these speciality products,
                                like
                                > White Lightning Clean Ride Lube, are really necessary.
                                >
                                > I found http://nordicgroup.us/chain/ which says that one does not
                                need
                                > to spend a lot of money in this area for good results and suggests
                                > Dupont's Multi-Use Lubricant With Teflon Fluoropolymer as a good,
                                far
                                > cheaper, option for chain lubrication among many others.
                                >
                                > I was just wondering what people thought about the information on
                                this
                                > site and what you really use to clean and lube your chain.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > White Lightning Clean Ride Lube sells for $12.50 for 8oz at REI.com
                                > Dupont's Multi-Use Lubricant With Teflon Fluoropolymer sells for
                                $6.50
                                > for 11oz at amazon.com
                                >
                              • icoleman1
                                ... More than you will ever want to know: http://yarchive.net/bike/chain_clean.html Even more than that: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chainclean.html Ah, I miss
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 28, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, Eric Gorr <mailist@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > There seem to be many (rather) expensive products out there which will
                                  > clean and lubricate your chain, but before I go out and spend the
                                  > money, I would like to know whether these speciality products--are
                                  > really necessary.

                                  More than you will ever want to know:
                                  http://yarchive.net/bike/chain_clean.html

                                  Even more than that:
                                  http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chainclean.html

                                  Ah, I miss Sheldon...

                                  --ian
                                • icoleman1
                                  ... Sorry, one more link, too good to pass up: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/chain-care.html --ian
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Feb 28, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, Eric Gorr <mailist@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > There seem to be many (rather) expensive products out there which will

                                    Sorry, one more link, too good to pass up:

                                    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/chain-care.html

                                    --ian
                                  • Julio
                                    Monica, I have just attended a conference with Cervelo that dealt with aerodynamics and geometry and fit. Regarding your questions and what I ve learned
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Feb 28, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Monica,

                                      I have just attended a conference with Cervelo that dealt with
                                      aerodynamics and geometry and fit. Regarding your questions and what
                                      I've learned recently, I can share the following:

                                      Beware of women specific design marketing!! Even though women do
                                      indeed have shorter torsos, the difference in torso length with men OF
                                      THE SAME HEIGHT is minimal. The issues with fitting women to bikes
                                      are not really women-specific, they are short-people-specific. Why do
                                      most small frames don't fit? Because they DO NOT bring the headtube
                                      any closer to the rider. The real solution is to have shorter people
                                      specific geometry: a) smaller sizes (of frames) need to be smaller -
                                      not just have shorter toptubes, BUT SHORTER REACH, which helps women
                                      AND men at the lower end of the size range.

                                      'For shorter people to fit properly on smaller frames, the headtube
                                      needs to come closer to the rider when we go from a 52cm to a 50cm to
                                      a 48cm frame, just as it does as we progress from a 61cm to a 58cm to
                                      a 56cm.' - Cervelo Geometry & Fit

                                      To allow for more of an upright position to provide you with a more
                                      comfortable fit, you can add spacers or look for a bike with a
                                      higher/longer headtube. Cervelo recently created the RS with a higher
                                      headtube after hearing complaints from some pros are not very flexible
                                      and who were uncomfortable with the R3, the latter which demands a
                                      lower position.

                                      If you would like more information on geometry and fit, please contact
                                      me directly and I can share with you what I have learned.

                                      Julio

                                      --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, "Monica Didier"
                                      <MDIDIER95@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Looking to get a new bike. I am short and have been known to have some
                                      > issues with back spasms so looking to buy or have made a profile
                                      that allows
                                      > for bent and upright riding. Haven't purchased a bike in 10 years so
                                      > wondering who/where to look. Not a speed rider, but an endurance.
                                      Looking
                                      > for something lightweight for portability and comfortable for 100 mile
                                      > stretches. On and off-road trail, but not mountain terrain.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Thanks in advance for the ideas.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Monica
                                      >
                                    • Geof Gee
                                      Hmmmm, I think that you are going to have to better than this Julio; i.e., some citations. For instance, I can tell you from comparing different size bikes
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Feb 28, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hmmmm, I think that you are going to have to better than this Julio;
                                        i.e., some citations.

                                        For instance, I can tell you from comparing different size bikes that
                                        the top tubes are different lengths. The situation you describe --
                                        where the top tube is the same size across bikes with different seat
                                        tube lengths -- was true decades ago. So if you chat with the vintage
                                        bike guys, they often describe such bikes. Sheldon Brown discussed it
                                        as well on his website (weird referring to him in the past tense).

                                        If you like, you can check the geometries of the same model in
                                        different sizes. You will notice that the top tube changes in some
                                        rough proportion as the seat tube.

                                        Regarding the physical proportion differences across gender ...
                                        interestingly, I cannot find a scientific study published on the web
                                        that makes a conclusion either way. However the army did such a
                                        study; but the results are not conveniently available.

                                        http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA074807

                                        Anyone else?

                                        -G

                                        --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, "Julio" <lachesis-five@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Monica,
                                        >
                                        > I have just attended a conference with Cervelo that dealt with
                                        > aerodynamics and geometry and fit. Regarding your questions and what
                                        > I've learned recently, I can share the following:
                                        >
                                        > Beware of women specific design marketing!! Even though women do
                                        > indeed have shorter torsos, the difference in torso length with men OF
                                        > THE SAME HEIGHT is minimal. The issues with fitting women to bikes
                                        > are not really women-specific, they are short-people-specific. Why do
                                        > most small frames don't fit? Because they DO NOT bring the headtube
                                        > any closer to the rider. The real solution is to have shorter people
                                        > specific geometry: a) smaller sizes (of frames) need to be smaller -
                                        > not just have shorter toptubes, BUT SHORTER REACH, which helps women
                                        > AND men at the lower end of the size range.
                                        >
                                        > 'For shorter people to fit properly on smaller frames, the headtube
                                        > needs to come closer to the rider when we go from a 52cm to a 50cm to
                                        > a 48cm frame, just as it does as we progress from a 61cm to a 58cm to
                                        > a 56cm.' - Cervelo Geometry & Fit
                                        >
                                        > To allow for more of an upright position to provide you with a more
                                        > comfortable fit, you can add spacers or look for a bike with a
                                        > higher/longer headtube. Cervelo recently created the RS with a higher
                                        > headtube after hearing complaints from some pros are not very flexible
                                        > and who were uncomfortable with the R3, the latter which demands a
                                        > lower position.
                                        >
                                        > If you would like more information on geometry and fit, please contact
                                        > me directly and I can share with you what I have learned.
                                        >
                                        > Julio
                                        >
                                      • Geof Gee
                                        Oh ... doesn t a bike with a shorter top tube by definition have a shorter reach if the stem is the same length? That is stem + top tube ~ reach? -G
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Feb 28, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Oh ... doesn't a bike with a shorter top tube by definition have a
                                          shorter reach if the stem is the same length? That is stem + top tube
                                          ~ reach?

                                          -G

                                          --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, "Julio" <lachesis-five@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Monica,
                                          >
                                          > I have just attended a conference with Cervelo that dealt with
                                          > aerodynamics and geometry and fit. Regarding your questions and what
                                          > I've learned recently, I can share the following:
                                          >
                                          > Beware of women specific design marketing!! Even though women do
                                          > indeed have shorter torsos, the difference in torso length with men OF
                                          > THE SAME HEIGHT is minimal. The issues with fitting women to bikes
                                          > are not really women-specific, they are short-people-specific. Why do
                                          > most small frames don't fit? Because they DO NOT bring the headtube
                                          > any closer to the rider. The real solution is to have shorter people
                                          > specific geometry: a) smaller sizes (of frames) need to be smaller -
                                          > not just have shorter toptubes, BUT SHORTER REACH, which helps women
                                          > AND men at the lower end of the size range.
                                          >
                                          > 'For shorter people to fit properly on smaller frames, the headtube
                                          > needs to come closer to the rider when we go from a 52cm to a 50cm to
                                          > a 48cm frame, just as it does as we progress from a 61cm to a 58cm to
                                          > a 56cm.' - Cervelo Geometry & Fit
                                          >
                                          > To allow for more of an upright position to provide you with a more
                                          > comfortable fit, you can add spacers or look for a bike with a
                                          > higher/longer headtube. Cervelo recently created the RS with a higher
                                          > headtube after hearing complaints from some pros are not very flexible
                                          > and who were uncomfortable with the R3, the latter which demands a
                                          > lower position.
                                          >
                                          > If you would like more information on geometry and fit, please contact
                                          > me directly and I can share with you what I have learned.
                                          >
                                          > Julio
                                          >
                                        • Julio
                                          no, no...different seat tube angles, not lengths... I m at the airport right now, but let s see if I can make some sense of this from my notes as to how to
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Feb 28, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            no, no...different seat tube angles, not lengths...

                                            I'm at the airport right now, but let's see if I can make some sense
                                            of this from my notes as to how to find a frame that will fit Monica,
                                            not the other way around.

                                            Cervelo's approach to geometry and fit is to focus on data (historical
                                            and scientific); determine a rider's optimal position, then fit the
                                            frame to it (not the other way around); and define frame dimensions
                                            that actually describe fit (stack & reach), not those that describe
                                            how to construct the frame (seattube and toptube lengths)

                                            Hip and Knee angle -

                                            1. Too open reduces power
                                            2. Too closed and power down as breathing affected, limb interference,
                                            flexibility issues
                                            3. Monica, like everyone else, has her own IDEAL hip and knee angle,
                                            although most riders are in the same narrow range
                                            4. independent of seattube angle

                                            Power output and seat tube angle -

                                            - The optimal position is "body internal" i.e. how this body is
                                            rotated (prone, upright, or reclined matters little)
                                            - No discernable difference in maximum, steady state power (determined
                                            in various studies: Antonson (1987), Drela (1988), Too (1990),
                                            Bussolari and Nadel (1989)

                                            The above-mentioned data allowed for the definition of two angles that
                                            define the OPTIMAL AVERAGE rider position:

                                            1) HIP ANGLE
                                            2) KNEE EXTENSION

                                            These two angles in turn connect three points in space into a triangle:

                                            - feet
                                            - hips
                                            - shoulders

                                            * Determined that these angles and points in space ARE INDEPENDENT OF
                                            FRAME GEOMETRY
                                            * These points in space can be rotated WITHOUT changing the hip angle
                                            and knee extension
                                            * The arm position DOES NOT affect the hip angle or knee extension,
                                            and will be determined later (later in the fitting, that is)

                                            So which rotational angle is best? The range of allowable angles is
                                            limited within cycling rules, so no recumbent or prone position.
                                            Rotating the body DOES NOT affect biomechanical performance, but it
                                            does affect the following:

                                            - aerodynamics
                                            - bike handling
                                            - visibility forward
                                            - saddle comfort

                                            So which rotational angle is best? Road reqs are different than those
                                            to TT/tri, hence the optional rotational position will be different.

                                            TT/TRI

                                            - aerodynamics are more important
                                            - aerobars make it easier for arms to support body weight and unload
                                            saddle
                                            - lower reqs for handling
                                            - lower reqs for forward visibility

                                            e.g. - picture DZ on his aero position

                                            All of these allow/demand a more forward position in TT/Tri; best
                                            compromise for road riding is around 73 degrees, for TT/Tri around 78
                                            degrees.

                                            Once the rider's ideal position is determined (based on performance
                                            and comfort criteria), this position is fixed. Do not change it to
                                            make a bike "fit", rather, change the bikes until one fits!

                                            So Monica's position is defined by the three point where she connects
                                            to the bike:

                                            - saddle

                                            Saddle position: marked by two dimensions. First, the saddle height,
                                            which can be defined in various ways. Cervelo uses the distance from
                                            the center of the saddle deck to the center of the BB. The second
                                            dimension is the horizontal distance between the center of the BB and
                                            the nose of the saddle. Once it is determined what saddle SET-BACK
                                            Monica needs, it won't change...which has the following consequences:

                                            1. If her ideal saddle position is fixed a certain distance behind the
                                            vertical BB line, then the exact frame lay-out behind the line does
                                            not matter, AS LONG AS IT ALLOWS THE SADDLE TO REACH THIS IDEAL, FIXED
                                            POSITION.

                                            2. Her frame fit is then determined by the frame geometry in front of
                                            this line. The length of the frame in fron of this line...is the
                                            REACH, the height of the frame is the STACK.

                                            Her ideal saddle position can be achieved with a range of seattube
                                            angles...as long as the desired frame has a seattube angle that falls
                                            within that range, she is OK and she can then concentrate on the
                                            geometry of the front half of the frame.

                                            So the next stage of her fitting is to match the geometry of the front
                                            half of the frame with her desired stem/handlebar position.

                                            - cranks
                                            - handlebars/stem

                                            Now she needs to find the frame and seatpost that will connect these
                                            parts correctly.

                                            (...my plane's about to leave, but here's a short list of some of the
                                            studies backing the research...more later on Monica's cockpit fitting)

                                            Research done on body dimensions: lots of data found in DOD & UK MOD
                                            Defence Standards; dimensions taken from UK (1987) and US (1988)
                                            surveys of Military personnel

                                            Data on cycling performance: extensive work done by Chet Kyle,
                                            California State University, Long Beach; research done by Danny Too,
                                            University of Nevada; Daedalus project, MIT

                                            j

                                            --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, "Geof Gee" <geoffreygee@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Hmmmm, I think that you are going to have to better than this Julio;
                                            > i.e., some citations.
                                            >
                                            > For instance, I can tell you from comparing different size bikes that
                                            > the top tubes are different lengths. The situation you describe --
                                            > where the top tube is the same size across bikes with different seat
                                            > tube lengths -- was true decades ago. So if you chat with the vintage
                                            > bike guys, they often describe such bikes. Sheldon Brown discussed it
                                            > as well on his website (weird referring to him in the past tense).
                                            >
                                            > If you like, you can check the geometries of the same model in
                                            > different sizes. You will notice that the top tube changes in some
                                            > rough proportion as the seat tube.
                                            >
                                            > Regarding the physical proportion differences across gender ...
                                            > interestingly, I cannot find a scientific study published on the web
                                            > that makes a conclusion either way. However the army did such a
                                            > study; but the results are not conveniently available.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA074807
                                            >
                                            > Anyone else?
                                            >
                                            > -G
                                            >
                                            > --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, "Julio" <lachesis-five@>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Monica,
                                            > >
                                            > > I have just attended a conference with Cervelo that dealt with
                                            > > aerodynamics and geometry and fit. Regarding your questions and what
                                            > > I've learned recently, I can share the following:
                                            > >
                                            > > Beware of women specific design marketing!! Even though women do
                                            > > indeed have shorter torsos, the difference in torso length with men OF
                                            > > THE SAME HEIGHT is minimal. The issues with fitting women to bikes
                                            > > are not really women-specific, they are short-people-specific. Why do
                                            > > most small frames don't fit? Because they DO NOT bring the headtube
                                            > > any closer to the rider. The real solution is to have shorter people
                                            > > specific geometry: a) smaller sizes (of frames) need to be smaller -
                                            > > not just have shorter toptubes, BUT SHORTER REACH, which helps women
                                            > > AND men at the lower end of the size range.
                                            > >
                                            > > 'For shorter people to fit properly on smaller frames, the headtube
                                            > > needs to come closer to the rider when we go from a 52cm to a 50cm to
                                            > > a 48cm frame, just as it does as we progress from a 61cm to a 58cm to
                                            > > a 56cm.' - Cervelo Geometry & Fit
                                            > >
                                            > > To allow for more of an upright position to provide you with a more
                                            > > comfortable fit, you can add spacers or look for a bike with a
                                            > > higher/longer headtube. Cervelo recently created the RS with a higher
                                            > > headtube after hearing complaints from some pros are not very flexible
                                            > > and who were uncomfortable with the R3, the latter which demands a
                                            > > lower position.
                                            > >
                                            > > If you would like more information on geometry and fit, please contact
                                            > > me directly and I can share with you what I have learned.
                                            > >
                                            > > Julio
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • Geof Gee
                                            OK Julio. I may be nuts, but this really doesn t sound that different from what other bike fit people do nor what custom bike manufacturers do. Tube angles
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Feb 29, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              OK Julio. I may be nuts, but this really doesn't sound that
                                              different from what other bike fit people do nor what custom bike
                                              manufacturers do. Tube angles and tube lengths combine to form a set
                                              of contact points. There might be engineering factors that determine
                                              the way shocks are transmitted to the body; but that really doesn't
                                              have anything to do with fit. Other angles -- or wheel size -- which
                                              determine toe overlap, trail, and so on are all important. But
                                              again, if you look up the specs of a lot of standard frames, the tube
                                              lengths and angles all change with size. Whether they do so
                                              optimally or are just accomodating the same size wheel or both is
                                              uncertain.

                                              With regards to body proportions, I found a few other sites that say
                                              otherwise; although they fail to provide scientific citations too.
                                              For instance, Luna Cycles claims that not only is the male's torso
                                              longer for a woman of identical height, but his arms are on average
                                              longer by 4 cm. Is that a lot? You got me. But even if the average
                                              woman can be modeled as a scaled down man, it fails to account for
                                              the variability (and correlation) of those proportions.

                                              On a whim, I just looked at the WSD Trek Madone 6.5 versus the "male"
                                              model. It is the case that they are different but that the
                                              differences are small. For instance, looking at the 50 cm model, the
                                              effective top tube length differs by less than 1 cm. They don't list
                                              the stem length; but that might differ as well.

                                              Anyway, if the advice is ignore that label and find the bike that
                                              fits -- assuming she is not getting a custom job -- then I
                                              wholeheartedly agree.

                                              Hah! Maybe she will ignore all of this glop and get a recumbent!

                                              -G

                                              --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, "Julio" <lachesis-five@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > no, no...different seat tube angles, not lengths...
                                              >
                                              > I'm at the airport right now, but let's see if I can make some sense
                                              > of this from my notes as to how to find a frame that will fit
                                              Monica,
                                              > not the other way around.
                                              >
                                              > Cervelo's approach to geometry and fit is to focus on data
                                              (historical
                                              > and scientific); determine a rider's optimal position, then fit the
                                              > frame to it (not the other way around); and define frame dimensions
                                              > that actually describe fit (stack & reach), not those that describe
                                              > how to construct the frame (seattube and toptube lengths)
                                              >
                                              > Hip and Knee angle -
                                              >
                                              > 1. Too open reduces power
                                              > 2. Too closed and power down as breathing affected, limb
                                              interference,
                                              > flexibility issues
                                              > 3. Monica, like everyone else, has her own IDEAL hip and knee angle,
                                              > although most riders are in the same narrow range
                                              > 4. independent of seattube angle
                                              >
                                              > Power output and seat tube angle -
                                              >
                                              > - The optimal position is "body internal" i.e. how this body is
                                              > rotated (prone, upright, or reclined matters little)
                                              > - No discernable difference in maximum, steady state power
                                              (determined
                                              > in various studies: Antonson (1987), Drela (1988), Too (1990),
                                              > Bussolari and Nadel (1989)
                                              >
                                              > The above-mentioned data allowed for the definition of two angles
                                              that
                                              > define the OPTIMAL AVERAGE rider position:
                                              >
                                              > 1) HIP ANGLE
                                              > 2) KNEE EXTENSION
                                              >
                                              > These two angles in turn connect three points in space into a
                                              triangle:
                                              >
                                              > - feet
                                              > - hips
                                              > - shoulders
                                              >
                                              > * Determined that these angles and points in space ARE INDEPENDENT
                                              OF
                                              > FRAME GEOMETRY
                                              > * These points in space can be rotated WITHOUT changing the hip
                                              angle
                                              > and knee extension
                                              > * The arm position DOES NOT affect the hip angle or knee extension,
                                              > and will be determined later (later in the fitting, that is)
                                              >
                                              > So which rotational angle is best? The range of allowable angles is
                                              > limited within cycling rules, so no recumbent or prone position.
                                              > Rotating the body DOES NOT affect biomechanical performance, but it
                                              > does affect the following:
                                              >
                                              > - aerodynamics
                                              > - bike handling
                                              > - visibility forward
                                              > - saddle comfort
                                              >
                                              > So which rotational angle is best? Road reqs are different than
                                              those
                                              > to TT/tri, hence the optional rotational position will be
                                              different.
                                              >
                                              > TT/TRI
                                              >
                                              > - aerodynamics are more important
                                              > - aerobars make it easier for arms to support body weight and unload
                                              > saddle
                                              > - lower reqs for handling
                                              > - lower reqs for forward visibility
                                              >
                                              > e.g. - picture DZ on his aero position
                                              >
                                              > All of these allow/demand a more forward position in TT/Tri; best
                                              > compromise for road riding is around 73 degrees, for TT/Tri around
                                              78
                                              > degrees.
                                              >
                                              > Once the rider's ideal position is determined (based on performance
                                              > and comfort criteria), this position is fixed. Do not change it to
                                              > make a bike "fit", rather, change the bikes until one fits!
                                              >
                                              > So Monica's position is defined by the three point where she
                                              connects
                                              > to the bike:
                                              >
                                              > - saddle
                                              >
                                              > Saddle position: marked by two dimensions. First, the saddle height,
                                              > which can be defined in various ways. Cervelo uses the distance
                                              from
                                              > the center of the saddle deck to the center of the BB. The second
                                              > dimension is the horizontal distance between the center of the BB
                                              and
                                              > the nose of the saddle. Once it is determined what saddle SET-BACK
                                              > Monica needs, it won't change...which has the following
                                              consequences:
                                              >
                                              > 1. If her ideal saddle position is fixed a certain distance behind
                                              the
                                              > vertical BB line, then the exact frame lay-out behind the line does
                                              > not matter, AS LONG AS IT ALLOWS THE SADDLE TO REACH THIS IDEAL,
                                              FIXED
                                              > POSITION.
                                              >
                                              > 2. Her frame fit is then determined by the frame geometry in front
                                              of
                                              > this line. The length of the frame in fron of this line...is the
                                              > REACH, the height of the frame is the STACK.
                                              >
                                              > Her ideal saddle position can be achieved with a range of seattube
                                              > angles...as long as the desired frame has a seattube angle that
                                              falls
                                              > within that range, she is OK and she can then concentrate on the
                                              > geometry of the front half of the frame.
                                              >
                                              > So the next stage of her fitting is to match the geometry of the
                                              front
                                              > half of the frame with her desired stem/handlebar position.
                                              >
                                              > - cranks
                                              > - handlebars/stem
                                              >
                                              > Now she needs to find the frame and seatpost that will connect these
                                              > parts correctly.
                                              >
                                              > (...my plane's about to leave, but here's a short list of some of
                                              the
                                              > studies backing the research...more later on Monica's cockpit
                                              fitting)
                                              >
                                              > Research done on body dimensions: lots of data found in DOD & UK MOD
                                              > Defence Standards; dimensions taken from UK (1987) and US (1988)
                                              > surveys of Military personnel
                                              >
                                              > Data on cycling performance: extensive work done by Chet Kyle,
                                              > California State University, Long Beach; research done by Danny Too,
                                              > University of Nevada; Daedalus project, MIT
                                              >
                                              > j
                                            • Ian Walsh
                                              I agree, this approach isn t even slightly different that what everyone else is doing. The difference is, and I ve got to assume it wasn t covered in Julio s
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Feb 29, 2008
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                I agree, this approach isn't even slightly different that what everyone
                                                else is doing. The difference is, and I've got to assume it wasn't
                                                covered in Julio's class or he didn't mention it is the constraints of
                                                steering geometry (which affects fit) and the relationship between the
                                                BB location and the rear axle.

                                                Saying, for instance that TT length doesn't matter, is foolish. if a
                                                rider needs a reach of 60 cm, they can get there with a 50cm TT and a
                                                10cm stem, or... a 59cm TT and a 1cm stem - assuming it was possible to
                                                make a 1cm stem, you practically couldn't ride such a bike if it had
                                                comparable trail to most road bikes. Ask any mountain biker if TT length
                                                in and of itself matters. (of course it does - it defines how long your
                                                stem is, which affects how the bike steers).
                                                Likewise, there is a minimum chainstay length (cervelo are pushing this
                                                as far as it will go with 700c wheels), and BB height is limited to a
                                                small range.

                                                you constrain the location of 1 of the 3 points of the fit triangle, you
                                                can rotate the other 2. In reality though 2 of the points are pretty
                                                much defined by limitations independent of fit, so the 3rd is
                                                effectively fixed as well.
                                                It sounds to me like cervelo are pitching a "new!" "innovative" fit
                                                approach that is little more than rewording what every other company has
                                                been doing for decades.
                                              • bowmandj@aol.com
                                                A woman is not a scaled-down man. 4 cm is the difference between comfort and massive neck pain. Over many miles, even 1 cm can cause pain, because you re
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Feb 29, 2008
                                                • 0 Attachment

                                                  A woman is not a scaled-down man.

                                                  4 cm is the difference between comfort and massive neck pain. Over many miles, even 1 cm can cause pain, because you're leaning forward more than you should. Hell, if my seat height is off by a couple of millimeters I will feel it.
                                                   
                                                  A woman is not a scaled-down man.  

                                                  If I were Monica, I would start by going to a good bike shop and telling them my story - what I plan to use the bike for, issues like back problems, and my budget. Then listen to their general recommendations. Do this at a few different shops, then choose the best one and have them do a fitting. When I bought my road bike, I chose a shop based on the fact that they actually listened to what I told them and they seemed genuinely interested in finding me a bike that would make me happy.  

                                                  And a woman is not a scaled-down man.

                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: Geof Gee <geoffreygee@...>
                                                  To: BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 10:54 am
                                                  Subject: [BikeWashingtonDC] Re: Bike Recommendation


                                                  OK Julio. I may be nuts, but this really doesn't sound that
                                                  different from what other bike fit people do nor what custom bike
                                                  manufacturers do. Tube angles and tube lengths combine to form a set
                                                  of contact points. There might be engineering factors that determine
                                                  the way shocks are transmitted to the body; but that really doesn't
                                                  have anything to do with fit. Other angles -- or wheel size -- which
                                                  determine toe overlap, trail, and so on are all important. But
                                                  again, if you look up the specs of a lot of standard frames, the tube
                                                  lengths and angles all change with size. Whether they do so
                                                  optimally or are just accomodating the same size wheel or both is
                                                  uncertain.

                                                  With regards to body proportions, I found a few other sites that say
                                                  otherwise; although they fail to provide scientific citations too.
                                                  For instance, Luna Cycles claims that not only is the male's torso
                                                  longer for a woman of identical height, but his arms are on average
                                                  longer by 4 cm. Is that a lot? You got me. But even if the average
                                                  woman can be modeled as a scaled down man, it fails to account for
                                                  the variability (and correlation) of those proportions.

                                                  On a whim, I just looked at the WSD Trek Madone 6.5 versus the "male"
                                                  model. It is the case that they are different but that the
                                                  differences are small. For instance, looking at the 50 cm model, the
                                                  effective top tube length differs by less than 1 cm. They don't list
                                                  the stem length; but that might differ as well.

                                                  Anyway, if the advice is ignore that label and find the bike that
                                                  fits -- assuming she is not getting a custom job -- then I
                                                  wholeheartedly agree.

                                                  Hah! Maybe she will ignore all of this glop and get a recumbent!

                                                  -G

                                                  --- In BikeWashingtonDC@ yahoogroups. com, "Julio" <lachesis-five@ ...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > no, no...different seat tube angles, not lengths...
                                                  >
                                                  > I'm at the airport right now, but let's see if I can make some sense
                                                  > of this from my notes as to how to find a frame that will fit
                                                  Monica,
                                                  > not the other way around.
                                                  >
                                                  > Cervelo's approach to geometry and fit is to focus on data
                                                  (historical
                                                  > and scientific); determine a rider's optimal position, then fit the
                                                  > frame to it (not the other way around); and define frame dimensions
                                                  > that actually describe fit (stack & reach), not those that describe
                                                  > how to construct the frame (seattube and toptube lengths)
                                                  >
                                                  > Hip and Knee angle -
                                                  >
                                                  > 1. Too open reduces power
                                                  > 2. Too closed and power down as breathing affected, limb
                                                  interference,
                                                  > flexibility issues
                                                  > 3. Monica, like everyone else, has her own IDEAL hip and knee angle,
                                                  > although most riders are in the same narrow range
                                                  > 4. independent of seattube angle
                                                  >
                                                  > Power output and seat tube angle -
                                                  >
                                                  > - The optimal position is "body internal" i.e. how this body is
                                                  > rotated (prone, upright, or reclined matters little)
                                                  > - No discernable difference in maximum, steady state power
                                                  (determined
                                                  > in various studies: Antonson (1987), Drela (1988), Too (1990),
                                                  > Bussolari and Nadel (1989)
                                                  >
                                                  > The above-mentioned data allowed for the definition of two angles
                                                  that
                                                  > define the OPTIMAL AVERAGE rider position:
                                                  >
                                                  > 1) HIP ANGLE
                                                  > 2) KNEE EXTENSION
                                                  >
                                                  > These two angles in turn connect three points in space into a
                                                  triangle:
                                                  >
                                                  > - feet
                                                  > - hips
                                                  > - shoulders
                                                  >
                                                  > * Determined that these angles and points in space ARE INDEPENDENT
                                                  OF
                                                  > FRAME GEOMETRY
                                                  > * These points in space can be rotated WITHOUT changing the hip
                                                  angle
                                                  > and knee extension
                                                  > * The arm position DOES NOT affect the hip angle or knee extension,
                                                  > and will be determined later (later in the fitting, that is)
                                                  >
                                                  > So which rotational angle is best? The range of allowable angles is
                                                  > limited within cycling rules, so no recumbent or prone position.
                                                  > Rotating the body DOES NOT affect biomechanical performance, but it
                                                  > does affect the following:
                                                  >
                                                  > - aerodynamics
                                                  > - bike handling
                                                  > - visibility forward
                                                  > - saddle comfort
                                                  >
                                                  > So which rotational angle is best? Road reqs are different than
                                                  those
                                                  > to TT/tri, hence the optional rotational position will be
                                                  different.
                                                  >
                                                  > TT/TRI
                                                  >
                                                  > - aerodynamics are more important
                                                  > - aerobars make it easier for arms to support body weight and unload
                                                  > saddle
                                                  > - lower reqs for handling
                                                  > - lower reqs for forward visibility
                                                  >
                                                  > e.g. - picture DZ on his aero position
                                                  >
                                                  > All of these allow/demand a more forward position in TT/Tri; best
                                                  > compromise for road riding is around 73 degrees, for TT/Tri around
                                                  78
                                                  > degrees.
                                                  >
                                                  > Once the rider's ideal position is determined (based on performance
                                                  > and comfort criteria), this position is fixed. Do not change it to
                                                  > make a bike "fit", rather, change the bikes until one fits!
                                                  >
                                                  > So Monica's position is defined by the three point where she
                                                  connects
                                                  > to the bike:
                                                  >
                                                  > - saddle
                                                  >
                                                  > Saddle position: marked by two dimensions. First, the saddle height,
                                                  > which can be defined in various ways. Cervelo uses the distance
                                                  from
                                                  > the center of the saddle deck to the center of the BB. The second
                                                  > dimension is the horizontal distance between the center of the BB
                                                  and
                                                  > the nose of the saddle. Once it is determined what saddle SET-BACK
                                                  > Monica needs, it won't change...which has the following
                                                  consequences:
                                                  >
                                                  > 1. If her ideal saddle position is fixed a certain distance behind
                                                  the
                                                  > vertical BB line, then the exact frame lay-out behind the line does
                                                  > not matter, AS LONG AS IT ALLOWS THE SADDLE TO REACH THIS IDEAL,
                                                  FIXED
                                                  > POSITION.
                                                  >
                                                  > 2. Her frame fit is then determined by the frame geometry in front
                                                  of
                                                  > this line. The length of the frame in fron of this line...is the
                                                  > REACH, the height of the frame is the STACK.
                                                  >
                                                  > Her ideal saddle position can be achieved with a range of seattube
                                                  > angles...as long as the desired frame has a seattube angle that
                                                  falls
                                                  > within that range, she is OK and she can then concentrate on the
                                                  > geometry of the front half of the frame.
                                                  >
                                                  > So the next stage of her fitting is to match the geometry of the
                                                  front
                                                  > half of the frame with her desired stem/handlebar position.
                                                  >
                                                  > - cranks
                                                  > - handlebars/stem
                                                  >
                                                  > Now she needs to find the frame and seatpost that will connect these
                                                  > parts correctly.
                                                  >
                                                  > (...my plane's about to leave, but here's a short list of some of
                                                  the
                                                  > studies backing the research...more later on Monica's cockpit
                                                  fitting)
                                                  >
                                                  > Research done on body dimensions: lots of data found in DOD & UK MOD
                                                  > Defence Standards; dimensions taken from UK (1987) and US (1988)
                                                  > surveys of Military personnel
                                                  >
                                                  > Data on cycling performance: extensive work done by Chet Kyle,
                                                  > California State University, Long Beach; research done by Danny Too,
                                                  > University of Nevada; Daedalus project, MIT
                                                  >
                                                  > j

                                                • Geof Gee
                                                  ... many miles, even 1 cm can cause pain, because you re leaning forward more than you should. Hell, if my seat height is off by a couple of millimeters I will
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Feb 29, 2008
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    --- In BikeWashingtonDC@yahoogroups.com, bowmandj@... wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > A woman is not a scaled-down man.
                                                    >
                                                    > 4 cm is the difference between comfort and massive neck pain. Over
                                                    many miles, even 1 cm can cause pain, because you're leaning forward
                                                    more than you should. Hell, if my seat height is off by a couple of
                                                    millimeters I will feel it.
                                                    >
                                                    >

                                                    Just to be clear, Luna Cycles site wrote that arm length differs by 4
                                                    cm; not the "optimal" or suggested reach which would be quite different
                                                    percentage-wise.

                                                    -G
                                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.