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A reply to Aubrey

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  • Bruce
    A reply to Aubrey Aubrey no one is denying that God spoke to Moses through His angel as Stephan plainly states the law was given though the agency of angels,
    Message 1 of 3 , Aug 27, 2012
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      A reply to Aubrey

      Aubrey no one is denying that God spoke to Moses through His angel as Stephan plainly states the law was given though the agency of angels, so God did not speak directly to Moses but through His angel[s]. The angel that led them through the wilderness, etc. But in these last days God - YHVH has spoken to us through His son who is so much higher in position than Moses could ever have imagined.

      Heb:1-9: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets [including Moses], has in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, because of whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; being made so much better than the angels [through whom YHVH gave the law to Moses], as he has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said He at any time, You are My Son, this day have I begotten you? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to Me a Son? And again, when he brings in the first begotten into the world, He said, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels He says, Who makes His angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son He says, Your throne, O Elohim - God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

      So here we have the Son given all that he spoke by his God and his Father to give unto us and excuse me for thinking that what he has to say is so much more important that what was given to Moses through the agency of angels, which was given as a temporary measure until the "seed" of Abraham would appear which "seed" is the Messiah Yeshua.

      Gal:2:14-21: But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel [the testimony that Yeshua preached], I said unto Peter before them all, If you, being a Jew, live after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compel you the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? [here we see that Peter was no longer keeping the tenants of Judaism] We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Know that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified - declared righteous though the Messiah, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore the Messiah the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with the Messiah: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but the Messiah lives in me [by his spirit]: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then the Messiah is dead in vain.

      Wow, did you get that "if righteousness comes by the law, then the Messiah is dead in vain". So there is no reason to be keep the law of Moses given through the agency of angels at Sinai.

      Gal:3:2-3: This only would I learn of you, did you receive the the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh? [keeping the law of Moses]

      Gal:3:5-9: He therefore that ministers to you the Spirit, and works miracles among you, doe he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know you therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In youe shall all nations be blessed. [through his seed, Yeshua] So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

      And they are blessed without keeping the law give at Sinai some 430 after Abraham.

      Gal 3:10-14: For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just - right doers shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doesh them shall live in them [all of them]. The Messiah has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hang on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Yeshua the Messiah; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

      Gal 3:16-20: Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He said not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to your seed, which is the Messiah. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in the Messiah, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serves the law? [Why was it given?] It was added because of transgressions, till the seed - Yeshua should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator [Moses]. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

      Gal 3:21-29: Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For you are all the children of God by faith in the Messiah Yeshua. For as many of you as have been baptized into the Messiah have put on the Messiah. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus [a new race, new creations in the Messiah who is the beginning of God's new creation]. And if you be the Messiah's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

      Wow, all without having to keep the law of Moses which was given to be a schoolmaster until the "seed" should come, even Yeshua the Messiah!!!

      Gal: 4:3-7: Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
      But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore you are no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through the Messiah.

      Gal 4:8-11 Howbeit then, when you [Gentiles] knew not God, you did service unto them which by nature are no gods [worshipped idols]. But now, after that you have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, where unto you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days, and months, and times, and years [the Holy Days given to Israel, including the Sabbath]. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.

      Paul was condemning them for giving into the influence of the Judaizers that had come into their midst and wanted them to observe the law of Moses.

      Gal: 4:21-31, Gal 5:1-10: Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
      For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a free-woman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the free-woman was by promise.

      Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants [the old and the new]; the one from the mount Sinai, which genders to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, you barren that bear not; break forth and cry, you that travail not: for the desolate has many more children than she which has a husband.

      Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what says the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free-woman.

      So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith the Messiah has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage [the law of Moses given at Sinai].

      Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if you [Gentiles] be circumcised, the Messiah shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. The Messiah is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you seek to be justified by the law; you are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Yeshua the Messiah neither circumcision avails any thing, nor un-circumcision; but faith which works by love. You [Gentiles] did run well; who did hinder you that you should not obey the truth? This persuasion [to keep the law of Moses] comes not of him that called you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

      Gal 5:13-14: For, brethren, you have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; You shalt love thy neighbor as yourself.

      Gal 5: 16-25: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would. But if you be led of the Spirit [of the Messiah], you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, sedition, heresies, Envying, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit [of Yeshua] is love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are the Messiah's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

      Gal 6:7-8: Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap. for he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life age upon age lasting.

      Gal 6:12-16: As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the stake of the Messiah. For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the stake of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in the Messiah Yeshua neither circumcision avails any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy upon the Israel of God [the congregation of God, the called-out assembly of God].

      For all who desire to continue to keep the law given to Moses at Sinai these words show that in doing so they desire to be in bondage and reject the clear testimony of the lord Messiah Yeshua. To do that is to lose out on inheriting all that has been promised to Abraham, no lose out on participation in the coming Theocratic Government of God, to lose out on salvation itself. What a tragedy.
    • Nelson R
      Aside from the passage in Hebrews (unknown authorship) you used one letter from one person to set aside the entire Jewish Cannon. No offense, but how does that
      Message 2 of 3 , Aug 27, 2012
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        Aside from the passage in Hebrews (unknown authorship) you used one letter from one person to set aside the entire Jewish Cannon.

        No offense, but how does that make sense? The letters of Paul are Paul's opinions and as a collective whole make up such a small perecentage of scripture as a whole. How can you say Paul is more authorative then anyone else when he writes of a man he never met?

        --- In Biblical_Unitarian@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce" <brucelyon1942@...> wrote:
        >
        > A reply to Aubrey
        >
        > Aubrey no one is denying that God spoke to Moses through His angel as Stephan plainly states the law was given though the agency of angels, so God did not speak directly to Moses but through His angel[s]. The angel that led them through the wilderness, etc. But in these last days God - YHVH has spoken to us through His son who is so much higher in position than Moses could ever have imagined.
        >
        > Heb:1-9: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets [including Moses], has in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, because of whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; being made so much better than the angels [through whom YHVH gave the law to Moses], as he has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said He at any time, You are My Son, this day have I begotten you? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to Me a Son? And again, when he brings in the first begotten into the world, He said, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels He says, Who makes His angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son He says, Your throne, O Elohim - God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.
        >
        > So here we have the Son given all that he spoke by his God and his Father to give unto us and excuse me for thinking that what he has to say is so much more important that what was given to Moses through the agency of angels, which was given as a temporary measure until the "seed" of Abraham would appear which "seed" is the Messiah Yeshua.
        >
        > Gal:2:14-21: But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel [the testimony that Yeshua preached], I said unto Peter before them all, If you, being a Jew, live after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compel you the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? [here we see that Peter was no longer keeping the tenants of Judaism] We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Know that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified - declared righteous though the Messiah, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore the Messiah the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with the Messiah: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but the Messiah lives in me [by his spirit]: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then the Messiah is dead in vain.
        >
        > Wow, did you get that "if righteousness comes by the law, then the Messiah is dead in vain". So there is no reason to be keep the law of Moses given through the agency of angels at Sinai.
        >
        > Gal:3:2-3: This only would I learn of you, did you receive the the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh? [keeping the law of Moses]
        >
        > Gal:3:5-9: He therefore that ministers to you the Spirit, and works miracles among you, doe he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know you therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In youe shall all nations be blessed. [through his seed, Yeshua] So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
        >
        > And they are blessed without keeping the law give at Sinai some 430 after Abraham.
        >
        > Gal 3:10-14: For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just - right doers shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doesh them shall live in them [all of them]. The Messiah has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hang on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Yeshua the Messiah; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
        >
        > Gal 3:16-20: Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He said not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to your seed, which is the Messiah. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in the Messiah, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serves the law? [Why was it given?] It was added because of transgressions, till the seed - Yeshua should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator [Moses]. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
        >
        > Gal 3:21-29: Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For you are all the children of God by faith in the Messiah Yeshua. For as many of you as have been baptized into the Messiah have put on the Messiah. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus [a new race, new creations in the Messiah who is the beginning of God's new creation]. And if you be the Messiah's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
        >
        > Wow, all without having to keep the law of Moses which was given to be a schoolmaster until the "seed" should come, even Yeshua the Messiah!!!
        >
        > Gal: 4:3-7: Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
        > But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore you are no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through the Messiah.
        >
        > Gal 4:8-11 Howbeit then, when you [Gentiles] knew not God, you did service unto them which by nature are no gods [worshipped idols]. But now, after that you have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, where unto you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days, and months, and times, and years [the Holy Days given to Israel, including the Sabbath]. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.
        >
        > Paul was condemning them for giving into the influence of the Judaizers that had come into their midst and wanted them to observe the law of Moses.
        >
        > Gal: 4:21-31, Gal 5:1-10: Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
        > For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a free-woman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the free-woman was by promise.
        >
        > Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants [the old and the new]; the one from the mount Sinai, which genders to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, you barren that bear not; break forth and cry, you that travail not: for the desolate has many more children than she which has a husband.
        >
        > Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what says the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free-woman.
        >
        > So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith the Messiah has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage [the law of Moses given at Sinai].
        >
        > Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if you [Gentiles] be circumcised, the Messiah shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. The Messiah is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you seek to be justified by the law; you are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Yeshua the Messiah neither circumcision avails any thing, nor un-circumcision; but faith which works by love. You [Gentiles] did run well; who did hinder you that you should not obey the truth? This persuasion [to keep the law of Moses] comes not of him that called you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
        >
        > Gal 5:13-14: For, brethren, you have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; You shalt love thy neighbor as yourself.
        >
        > Gal 5: 16-25: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would. But if you be led of the Spirit [of the Messiah], you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, sedition, heresies, Envying, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit [of Yeshua] is love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are the Messiah's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
        >
        > Gal 6:7-8: Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap. for he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life age upon age lasting.
        >
        > Gal 6:12-16: As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the stake of the Messiah. For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the stake of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in the Messiah Yeshua neither circumcision avails any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy upon the Israel of God [the congregation of God, the called-out assembly of God].
        >
        > For all who desire to continue to keep the law given to Moses at Sinai these words show that in doing so they desire to be in bondage and reject the clear testimony of the lord Messiah Yeshua. To do that is to lose out on inheriting all that has been promised to Abraham, no lose out on participation in the coming Theocratic Government of God, to lose out on salvation itself. What a tragedy.
        >
      • Richard
        ... Since the creation of man the standard God gave was to believe Him, trust Him and His goodness, that what He said is true, and walking in the truth He gave
        Message 3 of 3 , Oct 12, 2012
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          --- In Biblical_Unitarian@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson R" <nelson_rose@...> wrote:
          >
          > Aside from the passage in Hebrews (unknown authorship) you used one letter from one person to set aside the entire Jewish Cannon.
          >
          > No offense, but how does that make sense? The letters of Paul are Paul's opinions and as a collective whole make up such a small perecentage of scripture as a whole. How can you say Paul is more authorative then anyone else when he writes of a man he never met?
          >

          Since the creation of man the standard God gave was to believe Him, trust Him and His goodness, that what He said is true, and walking in the truth He gave is what we should do. The heavens and earth, which were created by the truth and power of His word, still exhist show the nature of His word, and if we think He has set aside this truth, we'd better consider if we believe Jesus taught the truth, as Jesus affirmed the eternal truth of the word of God in His very first sermon!

          No where did Jesus set aside the word of God, and in fact He magnified Torah - just as the holy prophet said He would.

          The record attributed to Paul was perverted long ago in its translation and perversion in the Greek manuscripts. Anyone who has a love for the word of God needs to check out the Aramaic English New Testament. God has preserved His word - and those of God will come to the light to know that what they do is done of God.

          http://www.aent.org
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