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Re: [Biblical_Unitarian] Re: No Subject-Proverbs 8:22-31

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  • CELSO, JR. BARRERA
    I never presumed. I always quoted the verses from the Bible, plain as it is. Don t you think that maybe you are the one presuming because you are explaining
    Message 1 of 9 , May 4, 2012
      I never presumed. I always quoted the verses from the Bible, plain as it is. Don't you think that maybe you are the one presuming because you are explaining things the way you understood it and never quoted any supporting verses from the Bible to prove your beliefs?

      The way I understand your way of thinking is that you are focusing on Christ's birth in the flesh (and called him in the name Jesus) and not in the truth. Not in that verse (1 Cor. 1:24) stated that Christ "WAS MADE TO BE" the power of God and wisdom of God as you were saying. It says "Christ [is] the power of God, and the wisdom of God". And since Christ is the wisdom of God, Christ was the one speaking in Proverbs 8:22-31. And based in His words He was there prior to the beginning of the creation. That is also the reason why Jesus said in John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.". Christ said these words because he was glorified by God in person and He was with God to be glorified. (Please, take note of the words "with the glory which I had with thee".) And answer these questions: How can the wisdom of God be glorified by God himself if it doesn't have any person? And are you saying that God doesn't have any wisdom yet until Christ was made/created? How can He create if He doesn't have any wisdom?

      Please, answer/reply based in what is written in the scriptures.

      In Christ,
      Celso



      From: George <george_smith92530@...>
      To: "Biblical_Unitarian@yahoogroups.com" <Biblical_Unitarian@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2012, 21:24
      Subject: Re: [Biblical_Unitarian] Re: No Subject-Proverbs 8:22-31

       
      You are presuming again.  Christ is the power and wisdom of God because God made him to be that.  Before he was born he was not anything because he hadn't been created yet.


      From: "CELSO, JR. BARRERA" <crosstopbook@...>
      To: "Biblical_Unitarian@yahoogroups.com" <Biblical_Unitarian@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 6:00 AM
      Subject: Re: [Biblical_Unitarian] Re: No Subject-Proverbs 8:22-31

       
      Guys, it is true that Proverbs 8 is speaking of wisdom and not of a person. But it is also written in the Bible that the said WISDOM has a person, and it can be read in 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." Therefore, there really is a pre-existence of the Christ prior to the beginning of the creation. And as we all know, the Christ is no other than Jesus.

      In Christ,
      Celso



      From: Bruce <brucelyon1942@...>
      To: Biblical_Unitarian@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, 28 April 2012, 21:31
      Subject: [Biblical_Unitarian] Re: No Subject-Proverbs 8:22-31

       
      Greetings Kevin;

      You say: It is true that the Scriptures reveal that there is only ONE Yehweh and
      that He alone is the source or creator of all things that exist.

      Note: I agree!

      You also say: But it is also true that those same Scriptures reveal that God, the Father, delegated that creation (as well as His authority, power and name) to the son, who is His very Image and who was the beginning of His Creation. It was the son Who later humbled Himself and became Jesus the Christ.

      Note: I don't agree at all with this statement. It smacks of what the Jehovah Witnesses believe and they also say that Jesus was actually Michael the Arch-Angel before his birth??? Amazing falsehood, and not scriptural by any means.

      To answer your statement: You have contradicted YHVH - Yahovah when you say Yeshua - Jesus His son was delegated to create all things.

      The scripture makes it plain that YHVH - Yahovah created all things by His own power and when he did so Yeshua - Jesus did not exist as a being, person.

      Yeshua - Jesus came into being just as Gabriel God's Messenger revealed to Mary; by the power of YHVH - Yahovah that overshadowed her and caused a biological miracle to take place; and so Yeshua - Jesus was begotten, had his beginning.

      Yeshua - Jesus was a specially created man, just as Adam was a specially created man; and and such; just as Adam was called the son of God because he was specially created of God - Luke 3:38: ....the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. That is why Paul refers to Yeshua - Jesus as the second man - 1Cor:15:47: The first man [Adam] is of the earth [created from red earth], earthy: the second man [Yeshua] - Jesus is of heaven [created by the power of YHVH's - Yahovah's spirit power]. Also, Paul refers to Yeshua - Jesus as the Last Adam - 1Cor:15:45: So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul - flesh and blood. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit - upon his resurrection, as an immortal man now at the right hand of his G-d and his Father. He became the last Adam at his resurrection. Why? because he succeeded in fulfilling the plan of God and as such there would be no need for YHVH - Yahovah to specially create anther man to bring the reconciliation of mankind back to their Creator God; and also to bring about a restitution of all things - Acts 3:19, as prophesied will take place in the coming new age.

      When Yeshua - Jesus was begotten by and through the power of God's holy spirit; at that time he became the beginning of God's New Creation; and we in him become new creations as a part of God's New Creation. The coming new age will introduce even more of God's New Creation when Yeshua - Jesus heads up the Theocratic Government of God seated on David's throne at Jerusalem as King of Israel, and King of kings and Lord of lords over the nations of the world as God's Vice-Regent.

      When the phrase a New Heavens and a New Earth is used in scripture it is a Jewish way of saying; or God's way of saying; that there will be a new order of things brought about that will replace the old order of things completely, on this earth and in the heavens.

      Hopefully this will give you a better understanding of who Yeshua - Jesus really was and is now, a glorified immortal man, a life giving spirit being, who had his beginning in the womb of Mariam, and not before, and as such was the beginning of God's New Creation of which all those in him have a part. Yeshua did not preexist his birth.

      bruceaustinlyon@...

      --- In Biblical_Unitarian@yahoogroups.com, "retrofit1965" <retrofit1965@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hi Bruce,
      >
      > There are a few things about what you said in your post that I view
      > differently. The following comments are not intended to defend the
      > Trinity as I consider that theology to be a false doctrine invented by
      > man.
      >
      > It is true that the Scriptures reveal that there is only ONE Yehweh and
      > that He alone is the source or creator of all things that exist. But it
      > is also true that those same Scriptures reveal that God, the Father,
      > delegated that creation (as well as His authority, power and name) to
      > the Son, Who is His very Image and Who was the beginning of His
      > Creation. It was the Son Who later humbled Himself and became Jesus the
      > Christ.







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