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Re: Christmas?

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  • retrofit1965
    Hi Norman, I am really not trying to be mean about this issue Norman, but you continue to misrepresent what I have been trying to say and convey to you. You
    Message 1 of 50 , Nov 1, 2010

      Hi Norman,

      I am really not trying to be mean about this issue Norman, but you continue to misrepresent what I have been trying to say and convey to you. You keep attributing things to my remarks and comments that which I have not said.

      Now you claim that I am trying to tell you "…..of the EVILS of the ORIGIN of X-MAS". Where did you get that from? I DO recall having used the terms HEATHEN, PAGAN, TRADITIONS, CUSTOMS, ROOTS, ORIGIN but I sure DO NOT recall saying "….EVILS of……."

      You say that you believe that "WE" are discussing two different subjects but I am only discussing one. It is you who has been attempting to steer the discussion into other areas.

      Let me see if I can refresh your memory, once again, as to what the actual topic of discussion is all about. It started essentially with this question:

      - IS X-MAS TRUTH OR TRADITION? –

      As far as I recall, everyone that has commented on this X-MAS topic, has commented in basically the same manner that I have. So there is no misunderstanding as to what is to be discussed, except for you.

      And this is essentially what I have been saying in my replies all along. Please pay close attention to the BOLDED portions:

      X-MAS is nothing more than the "CHRISTIANIZATION" of the PAGAN celebration of sun worship whose ORIGIN is ROOTED in HEATHEN TRADITIONS and CUSTOMS and most Christians today embrace those HEATHEN and PAGAN TRADITIONS in a "modernized" form.

      Now, all you would have needed to do was to reply that you either AGREED or DISAGREED with what I have said above - that X-MAS HAS or HAS NOT had its ORIGINS and ROOTS based in HEATHEN and PAGAN TRADITIONS and CUSTOMS. It would have been that simple.

      If you DISAGREED with my comments, you then could have developed your answer as to why you felt the CUSTOMS of X-MAS did NOT originate from HEATHEN and PAGAN TRADITIONS and THEN the discussion could have continued from there along various other lines.

      However, in order for you to have been able to reply to the above in an intelligent and educated manner, you would need to have been familiar with BOTH sides of the issue. But instead, in your very first post, you piled in with the following untrue and unrelated remarks:

      - Implied that I SAID that ANYONE who observes X-MAS cannot be a Christian.

      - Accused me of JUDGING others.

      - Quoted two verses of Scripture totally unrelated to the topic under discussion.

      - Made an unintelligible comment about my reference to a verse in Revelation.

       

      In your second post to me you just kept on with the untrue and unrelated remarks:

      - Claimed I DID NOT answer your question when I did.

      - Accused me of having SAID that you worship pagan gods.

      - Implied that I SAID that you acted like a pagan.

      - Implied that I SAID you bow down to a tree.

      - Attributed to Jeremiah things that he did not say.

      - Implied that I WAS TEACHING for doctrine the commandments of men.

      - Claimed that SOMEONE told me things that were not true.

      - Accused me of grossly MISUSING the Scriptures.

      - Again accused me of JUDGING others.

      - Accused me of making FALSE assumptions.

      - Demanded that I REPENT for making FALSE accusations.

      - Accused me of MISREPRESENTING those who observe X-MAS.

      - Claimed that I SAID that X-MAS observers put their faith in a tree and made it their God.

      And on and on you went in your subsequent posts with these types of insinuations and accusations, including this last one. Do you really expect me to take you seriously when you make those kinds of comments?

      And oh yes, Norman , I absolutely DO want to know if you AWARE of the ROOTS and ORIGINS of X-MAS FIRST.

      So then:

      Are YOU or are YOU NOT AWARE of the HEATHEN and PAGAN ROOTS and ORIGINS of X-MAS? A simple YES or NO type answer would be sufficient.

      Why won't you say?

      Grace and Peace in Him,

      Kevin


       

      ===========================================================

      --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, "apostolic40" <nareyoudd@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Kevin wrote: Can I now safely assume that you have finally finished
      > replying to my last post or are there still more on the way??
      >
      > Hi Kevin,
      >
      > I apologize for boring you with my long post. I believe we are trying to
      > discuss two completely different subjects. I am trying to explain to you
      > how I observe Christmas and you are trying to tell me of the evils of
      > the origin of Christmas.
      >
      > You know, I have been trying to follow the thought process that you have
      > attempted to employ in your last few posts to me and I have come to the
      > conclusion that you are not only confused and uninformed but seem to be
      > hung up in some sort of "pre-programmed loop" concerning the X-MAS
      > traditions. . . . . . . When you have honestly researched the roots and
      > origins of X-MAS, you will be able to better relate to others' arguments
      > against its observance and make more relevant and intelligible replies.
      >
      > Norman: I also believe you are hung up in some sort of "pre-programmed
      > loop." I tried to relate to the scriptures you gave me to prove how God
      > viewed the pagans at the time of Jeremiah. You appear not to have any
      > interest in the traditions of the pagans and how God viewed them and why
      > He condemned them.
      >
      > Your only concern in this discussion is the origin of Christmas. It
      > seems that you are not interested in discussing anything other than the
      > origin of Christmas.
      >
      > It appears that scripture has no part in this discussion (I do not know
      > why you even mentioned it). However, I can understand why you do not
      > want to answer tough questions about the scriptures you gave me, if the
      > only thing you are interested in, is the origin of Christmas.
      >
      > Whether or not I know anything about the origin of Christmas is in no
      > way important UNLESS you are saying that how something STARTED is how
      > that thing MUST end.
      >
      > When something starts out bad, it is impossible to modify it and change
      > it into something good. I suppose we will need to agree to disagree on
      > that.
      >
      > That also says the scripture is not sufficient to guide one into the
      > fellowship, I must study and understand history, before I can be in
      > fellowship with God.
      >
      > Again, I apologize for boring you by leaving the only important subject
      > to you, the origin of Christmas.
      >
      > Thank you, again for responding and with that, I will close.
      >
      > Norman
      >

    • apostolic40
      Hi Kevin, In Message #58216 you wrote: Isn t it amazing that a people claiming to be followers of Christ (Christians) embrace such heathen philosophies as if
      Message 50 of 50 , Nov 2, 2010

        Hi Kevin,

        In Message #58216 you wrote: Isn't it amazing that a people claiming to be followers of Christ (Christians) embrace such heathen philosophies as if endorsed by God Himself.

        No wonder He tells them to: "Come out of her, my people....."

        Hi Kevin,

        The first, of your post, I responded to; concerned the judgment of those Christians who observed Christmas.

        You have judged that God told someone observing something to come out of something. That is when I asked you: Kevin wrote: Hello there Norman,

        YOU SAID: ***Are (you?) saying not anyone who observes Christmas can be a Christian?***

        You replied: No, that is not what I said in my response to George. I said that: "Christmas is nothing more than the `Christianization' of the pagan celebration of sun worship". If you pay close attention, you will notice that it was CHRIST–ians who adopted the pagan tradition of sun worship and called it CHRIST–mas.

        End of discussion, right? No, you continue your judgment.

        Kevin quoted: "Ye hypocrites! well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth
        nigh unto Me with their mouth, and honoureth Me with their lips; but their heart
        is far from Me. But in vain do they worship Me, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES the
        commandments of men" (Matt. 15:7-9).

        And look at what Paul said too:

        "Wherefore, my dearly beloved, FLEE from idolatry" (1Cor.
        10:14).

        As also the Apostle John:

        "Dear children, KEEP yourselves from idols" (1John
        5:21).

        And then what God Himself told His chosen people,
        Israel, through the prophet
        Jeremiah……

        "…………LEARN NOT the way of the heathen………." (Jer. 10:2)

        and immediately followed that up with this:

        "……….and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at
        them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the
        forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with
        silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move
        not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne,
        because they cannot go…………" Jer. 10:2-5).

        Norman: You related all these condemnations to those who observe Christmas.

        Kevin wrote: The observance of the heathen derived CUSTOMS, such as CHRIST-mas(s), is not the only "whoredom" that church has and is involved in.

        Norman: However, you claim you do not judge anyone for God.

        I spent hours responding to the scriptures above and others and you did not take time to comment on any of my statements or answer any of my questions as to how you believe these scriptures relate to me and how I observe Christmas.

        And oh yes, Norman , I absolutely DO want to know if you AWARE of the ROOTS and ORIGINS of X-MAS FIRST.

        No, I am not aware of the roots and origin of Christmas and I will say again, whether or not I know anything about the origin of Christmas is in no way important UNLESS you are saying that how something STARTED is how that thing MUST end.

        When something is starts out bad, it is impossible to modify it and change it into something good. I suppose we need to agree to disagree on that.

        That also says the scripture is not sufficient to guide one into the fellowship of God, I must study and understand history, before I can be in fellowship with God. Unless you are saying that the "whoredom" of those observing Christmas is not out of fellowship with God.  

        I have spent more time on this post than I had planned to when I started. I will not spent hours trying to reason with you on your judgment of others while you are only obsessed with what happened in the past.

        Thanks,

        Norman

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