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Re: Childrene of God?

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  • peters
    ... Pedro: I agree with you that Jesus is the Son of God literally, while I am a son of God figuratively, yet I am literally a son of my father and mother who
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 2, 2010
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      --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, "Tim H" <THardesty@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Pedro, my comments below.
      >
      >
      > > Tim H:
      > > All of mankind are children of God figuratively speaking
      > > since God is the Creator of mankind. However, Jesus Christ
      > > is the only son of God literally speaking. Try not to get
      > > the literal and figurative confused. It's either/or. It
      > > cannot be both figurative and literal. It's one or the
      > > other. If it's figurative, then it's not literal. If
      > > it's literal, then it's not figurative.
      > >
      > >
      > > Pedro:
      > > I agree we are children of God figuratively speaking
      > since God is the Creator of mankind. and continue to say
      > that Jesus Christ is the only son of God literally speaking.
      > >
      > > I would assume you mean, He is literally God the Son?
      > But I know that is not your belief. May be you could
      > elaborate on this point.
      >
      >
      > TIM H:
      > Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God according
      > to Scripture. He is NOT God the Son. That is according
      > to the false teaching of men that is not Scriptural.
      >
      Pedro:
      I agree with you that Jesus is the Son of God literally, while I am a son of God figuratively, yet I am literally a son of my father and mother who where both Christians.
      >
      > > Pedro:
      > > I am not getting the literal with the figurative confused,
      > but we are talking about the spirit? There is nothing literal
      > about God except His Children?
      > >
      > > In the Christ
      > >
      > > Pedro
      >
      >
      > TIM H:
      > Obviously, when you say something is both literal and
      > figurative at the same time - which you did - you are
      > confused about what those terms mean.
      >
      > In Christ,
      > Tim H
      >

      Jesus is figuratively and literally a Son of God, He is The two yet One.

      In the Christ

      Pedro
    • Tim H
      Tim H wrote: Hi Pedro, my comments below. ... while I am a son of God figuratively, yet I am literally a son of my father and mother who where both Christians.
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 2, 2010
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        Tim H wrote:
        Hi Pedro, my comments below.


        > > > Tim H:
        > > > All of mankind are children of God figuratively speaking
        > > > since God is the Creator of mankind. However, Jesus Christ
        > > > is the only son of God literally speaking. Try not to get
        > > > the literal and figurative confused. It's either/or. It
        > > > cannot be both figurative and literal. It's one or the
        > > > other. If it's figurative, then it's not literal. If
        > > > it's literal, then it's not figurative.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Pedro:
        > > > I agree we are children of God figuratively speaking
        > > since God is the Creator of mankind. and continue to say
        > > that Jesus Christ is the only son of God literally speaking.
        > > >
        > > > I would assume you mean, He is literally God the Son?
        > > But I know that is not your belief. May be you could
        > > elaborate on this point.
        > >
        > >
        > > Tim H:
        > > Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God according
        > > to Scripture. He is NOT God the Son. That is according
        > > to the false teaching of men that is not Scriptural.
        >
        >
        > Pedro:
        > I agree with you that Jesus is the Son of God literally,
        while I am a son of God figuratively, yet I am literally a
        son of my father and mother who where both Christians.


        TIM H:
        Exactly! This shows a correct understanding.


        > > > Pedro:
        > > > I am not getting the literal with the figurative confused,
        > > but we are talking about the spirit? There is nothing literal
        > > about God except His Children?
        > > >
        > > > In the Christ
        > > >
        > > > Pedro
        > >
        > >
        > > Tim H:
        > > Obviously, when you say something is both literal and
        > > figurative at the same time - which you did - you are
        > > confused about what those terms mean.
        > >
        > > In Christ,
        > > Tim H
        > >
        >
        > Jesus is figuratively and literally a Son of God, He is
        > The two yet One.
        >
        > In the Christ
        >
        > Pedro
        >
      • Tim H
        Hi Pedro, this is the second response to the same post. I accidentally posted my first reply before I was done. See my additional comments below. ... while I
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 2, 2010
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          Hi Pedro, this is the second response to the same post.
          I accidentally posted my first reply before I was done.
          See my additional comments below.


          > > Hi Pedro, my comments below.
          > >
          > >
          > > > Tim H:
          > > > All of mankind are children of God figuratively speaking
          > > > since God is the Creator of mankind. However, Jesus Christ
          > > > is the only son of God literally speaking. Try not to get
          > > > the literal and figurative confused. It's either/or. It
          > > > cannot be both figurative and literal. It's one or the
          > > > other. If it's figurative, then it's not literal. If
          > > > it's literal, then it's not figurative.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Pedro:
          > > > I agree we are children of God figuratively speaking
          > > since God is the Creator of mankind. and continue to say
          > > that Jesus Christ is the only son of God literally speaking.
          > > >
          > > > I would assume you mean, He is literally God the Son?
          > > But I know that is not your belief. May be you could
          > > elaborate on this point.
          > >
          > >
          > > Tim H:
          > > Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God according
          > > to Scripture. He is NOT God the Son. That is according
          > > to the false teaching of men that is not Scriptural.
          >
          >
          > Pedro:
          > I agree with you that Jesus is the Son of God literally,
          while I am a son of God figuratively, yet I am literally a
          son of my father and mother who where both Christians.
          >
          >
          > > > Pedro:
          > > > I am not getting the literal with the figurative confused,
          > > but we are talking about the spirit? There is nothing literal
          > > about God except His Children?
          > > >
          > > > In the Christ
          > > >
          > > > Pedro
          > >
          > >
          > > Tim H:
          > > Obviously, when you say something is both literal and
          > > figurative at the same time - which you did - you are
          > > confused about what those terms mean.
          > >
          > > In Christ,
          > > Tim H


          > Pedro wrote:
          > Jesus is figuratively and literally a Son of God, He is The
          > two yet One.
          >
          > In the Christ
          >
          > Pedro


          TIM H:
          Again, you are showing confusion in your usage of the two
          terms. Jesus is NOT figuratively the son of God, because
          he IS literally the son of God. To say that he is both is
          a contradiction and makes no sense.

          In Christ,
          Tim H
        • peters
          ... Pedro: Jesus was a Son of God thru the seed of Abraham literally and figuratively. The Son is the marriage of both the Body and the Spirit, the Created
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 3, 2010
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            >
            > Hi Pedro, this is the second response to the same post.
            > I accidentally posted my first reply before I was done.
            > See my additional comments below.
            >
            >
            > > > Hi Pedro, my comments below.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > > Tim H:
            > > > > All of mankind are children of God figuratively speaking
            > > > > since God is the Creator of mankind. However, Jesus Christ
            > > > > is the only son of God literally speaking. Try not to get
            > > > > the literal and figurative confused. It's either/or. It
            > > > > cannot be both figurative and literal. It's one or the
            > > > > other. If it's figurative, then it's not literal. If
            > > > > it's literal, then it's not figurative.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Pedro:
            > > > > I agree we are children of God figuratively speaking
            > > > since God is the Creator of mankind. and continue to say
            > > > that Jesus Christ is the only son of God literally speaking.
            > > > >
            > > > > I would assume you mean, He is literally God the Son?
            > > > But I know that is not your belief. May be you could
            > > > elaborate on this point.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Tim H:
            > > > Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God according
            > > > to Scripture. He is NOT God the Son. That is according
            > > > to the false teaching of men that is not Scriptural.
            > >
            > >
            > > Pedro:
            > > I agree with you that Jesus is the Son of God literally,
            > while I am a son of God figuratively, yet I am literally a
            > son of my father and mother who where both Christians.
            > >
            > >
            > > > > Pedro:
            > > > > I am not getting the literal with the figurative confused,
            > > > but we are talking about the spirit? There is nothing literal
            > > > about God except His Children?
            > > > >
            > > > > In the Christ
            > > > >
            > > > > Pedro
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Tim H:
            > > > Obviously, when you say something is both literal and
            > > > figurative at the same time - which you did - you are
            > > > confused about what those terms mean.
            > > >
            > > > In Christ,
            > > > Tim H
            >
            >
            > > Pedro wrote:
            > > Jesus is figuratively and literally a Son of God, He is The
            > > two yet One.
            > >
            > > In the Christ
            > >
            > > Pedro
            >
            >
            > TIM H:
            > Again, you are showing confusion in your usage of the two
            > terms. Jesus is NOT figuratively the son of God, because
            > he IS literally the son of God. To say that he is both is
            > a contradiction and makes no sense.
            >
            > In Christ,
            > Tim H
            >
            Pedro:

            Jesus was a Son of God thru the seed of Abraham literally and figuratively.

            The Son is the marriage of both the Body and the Spirit, the Created and the Creator, therefore The Son of the Creator, Our Father.
          • stevku
            ... Hi Pedro. I agree with this. This makes Jesus the only kin-related Son of God (Luke 1:35), having God rather than a man as His Father and Mary as His
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 3, 2010
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              > The Son is the marriage of both the Body and the Spirit, the Created and the Creator, therefore The Son of the Creator, Our Father.
              >

              Hi Pedro. I agree with this. This makes Jesus the only kin-related Son of God (Luke 1:35), having God rather than a man as His Father and Mary as His mother, all others sons of God being adopted or called sons for some other reason.

              In Christ,
              Steve

              --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, "peters" <pashanab@...> wrote:
              > [58004]
            • peters
              Ameen Steve. In Christ Petro
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 3, 2010
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                Ameen Steve.

                In Christ
                Petro

                --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, "stevku" <stevku@...> wrote:
                >
                > > The Son is the marriage of both the Body and the Spirit, the Created and the Creator, therefore The Son of the Creator, Our Father.
                > >
                >
                > Hi Pedro. I agree with this. This makes Jesus the only kin-related Son of God (Luke 1:35), having God rather than a man as His Father and Mary as His mother, all others sons of God being adopted or called sons for some other reason.
                >
                > In Christ,
                > Steve
                >
                > --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, "peters" <pashanab@> wrote:
                > > [58004]
                >
              • Tim H
                Hi Pedro, my comments below. ... TIM H: I honestly don t know if you are just not comprehending what I am saying, or if perhaps you just think I don t know
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 3, 2010
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                  Hi Pedro, my comments below.


                  > > > Pedro wrote:
                  > > > Jesus is figuratively and literally a Son of God,
                  > > > He is The two yet One.
                  > > >
                  > > > In the Christ
                  > > >
                  > > > Pedro
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Tim H:
                  > > Again, you are showing confusion in your usage of the two
                  > > terms. Jesus is NOT figuratively the son of God, because
                  > > he IS literally the son of God. To say that he is both is
                  > > a contradiction and makes no sense.
                  > >
                  > > In Christ,
                  > > Tim H
                  >
                  >
                  > Pedro:
                  > Jesus was a Son of God thru the seed of Abraham literally
                  > and figuratively.
                  >
                  > The Son is the marriage of both the Body and the Spirit,
                  > the Created and the Creator, therefore The Son of the
                  > Creator, Our Father.


                  TIM H:
                  I honestly don't know if you are just not comprehending what
                  I am saying, or if perhaps you just think I don't know what
                  I'm talking about, or if you are just being stubborn - or
                  maybe it's a little of all three, but I'm feeling like what
                  Sea posted earlier. It's like talking to a chair...

                  You are absolutely wrong that Jesus was a son of God through
                  the seed of Abraham. In order for Jesus to literally be of
                  the seed of Abraham he would have to have a human father that
                  was descended from Abraham - which he didn't - because God
                  is his literal Father. Jesus is also not of the seed of
                  of Abraham figuratively, either, like Christians are
                  figuratively of the seed of Abraham through faith in
                  the Gospel of Christ. Jesus made it clear that he was
                  greater than Abraham.

                  And, one last time, something cannot be BOTH figurative AND
                  literal. It's EITHER one OR the other. If it's figurative
                  then it's not literal. If it's literal then it's not
                  figurative. It CANNOT BE BOTH. That is contradictory.

                  In Christ,
                  Tim H
                • peters
                  ... Pedro: I could say it is all three, but mainly I do not comprehend your logic. ... Pedro: Now, I do not know what i am talking about? I am wrong? That
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 4, 2010
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                    --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, "Tim H" <THardesty@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Pedro, my comments below.
                    >
                    >
                    > > > > Pedro wrote:
                    > > > > Jesus is figuratively and literally a Son of God,
                    > > > > He is The two yet One.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > In the Christ
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Pedro
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Tim H:
                    > > > Again, you are showing confusion in your usage of the two
                    > > > terms. Jesus is NOT figuratively the son of God, because
                    > > > he IS literally the son of God. To say that he is both is
                    > > > a contradiction and makes no sense.
                    > > >
                    > > > In Christ,
                    > > > Tim H
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Pedro:
                    > > Jesus was a Son of God thru the seed of Abraham literally
                    > > and figuratively.
                    > >
                    > > The Son is the marriage of both the Body and the Spirit,
                    > > the Created and the Creator, therefore The Son of the
                    > > Creator, Our Father.
                    >
                    >
                    > TIM H:
                    > I honestly don't know if you are just not comprehending what
                    > I am saying, or if perhaps you just think I don't know what
                    > I'm talking about, or if you are just being stubborn - or
                    > maybe it's a little of all three, but I'm feeling like what
                    > Sea posted earlier. It's like talking to a chair...

                    Pedro:
                    I could say it is all three, but mainly
                    I do not comprehend your logic.

                    Tim:
                    > You are absolutely wrong that Jesus was a son of God through
                    > the seed of Abraham. In order for Jesus to literally be of
                    > the seed of Abraham he would have to have a human father that
                    > was descended from Abraham - which he didn't - because God
                    > is his literal Father. Jesus is also not of the seed of
                    > of Abraham figuratively, either, like Christians are
                    > figuratively of the seed of Abraham through faith in
                    > the Gospel of Christ. Jesus made it clear that he was
                    > greater than Abraham.

                    Pedro:
                    Now, I do not know what i am talking about? I am wrong?
                    That Jesus is the Son of God Thru the seed of Abraham??
                    Isn't He the Son of David Literally??

                    Isn't He figuratively the Christ??

                    Abraham would be pleased,as He is I am sure to know that His Son is greater than Him?

                    John 8:56
                    56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

                    Tim:
                    > And, one last time, something cannot be BOTH figurative AND
                    > literal. It's EITHER one OR the other. If it's figurative
                    > then it's not literal. If it's literal then it's not
                    > figurative. It CANNOT BE BOTH. That is contradictory.
                    >
                    > In Christ,
                    > Tim H
                    >
                    Pedro:
                    Your logic does not allow you to go outside the box?
                    Jesus is not only my brother figuratively, Jesus is my brother literally, Jesus is the Trinity, therefore The Son.

                    In the Christ

                    Pedro
                  • Tim H
                    Tim H wrote: Hi Pedro, my comments below. ... TIM H: LOL, well, of the three possibilities that is the one that I preferred to believe. Anyway, it seems there
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 5, 2010
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                      Tim H wrote:
                      Hi Pedro, my comments below.


                      > > > > > Pedro wrote:
                      > > > > > Jesus is figuratively and literally a Son of God,
                      > > > > > He is The two yet One.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > In the Christ
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Pedro
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Tim H:
                      > > > > Again, you are showing confusion in your usage of the two
                      > > > > terms. Jesus is NOT figuratively the son of God, because
                      > > > > he IS literally the son of God. To say that he is both is
                      > > > > a contradiction and makes no sense.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > In Christ,
                      > > > > Tim H
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Pedro:
                      > > > Jesus was a Son of God thru the seed of Abraham literally
                      > > > and figuratively.
                      > > >
                      > > > The Son is the marriage of both the Body and the Spirit,
                      > > > the Created and the Creator, therefore The Son of the
                      > > > Creator, Our Father.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Tim H:
                      > > I honestly don't know if you are just not comprehending what
                      > > I am saying, or if perhaps you just think I don't know what
                      > > I'm talking about, or if you are just being stubborn - or
                      > > maybe it's a little of all three, but I'm feeling like what
                      > > Sea posted earlier. It's like talking to a chair...
                      >
                      >
                      > Pedro:
                      > I could say it is all three, but mainly
                      > I do not comprehend your logic.


                      TIM H:
                      LOL, well, of the three possibilities that is the one
                      that I preferred to believe. Anyway, it seems there is
                      not much point in discussing literal vs figurative with
                      you since we have no real communication on this subject.


                      > > Tim H:
                      > > You are absolutely wrong that Jesus was a son of God through
                      > > the seed of Abraham. In order for Jesus to literally be of
                      > > the seed of Abraham he would have to have a human father that
                      > > was descended from Abraham - which he didn't - because God
                      > > is his literal Father. Jesus is also not of the seed of
                      > > of Abraham figuratively, either, like Christians are
                      > > figuratively of the seed of Abraham through faith in
                      > > the Gospel of Christ. Jesus made it clear that he was
                      > > greater than Abraham.
                      >
                      >
                      > Pedro:
                      > Now, I do not know what i am talking about?


                      TIM H:
                      In regards to what is figurative and what is literal, no,
                      I don't believe you know what you are talking about because
                      I don't believe you correctly understand those terms.


                      > Pedro:
                      > I am wrong?
                      > That Jesus is the Son of God Thru the seed of Abraham??
                      > Isn't He the Son of David Literally??


                      TIM H:
                      No, Jesus is the son of David figuratively speaking - not
                      literally. For Jesus to be the son of David literally,
                      David would have to be the one that impregnated Mary,
                      which of course, is entirely impossible since they lived
                      hundreds of years apart.

                      As far as Jesus being the son of God through the seed of
                      Abraham literally, you would have to believe that Joseph
                      was actually the father of Jesus and not God. You would
                      have to believe that Joseph impregnated Mary and not God.
                      If you believe as I do, that God impregnated Mary and
                      therefore Jesus is the only begotten son of God, then
                      you would also have to realize that being the son of
                      David is figurative and not literal. Of course, I know
                      you are not going to understand this, but I have to try...


                      > Pedro:
                      > Isn't He figuratively the Christ??


                      TIM H:
                      No, he is literally the Christ - not figuratively.


                      > Pedro:
                      > Abraham would be pleased, as He is I am sure to know that
                      > His Son is greater than Him?


                      TIM H:
                      This makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever...

                      I said that Jesus, the son of God, is greater than
                      Abraham, so he is not figuratively of the seed of
                      Abraham like Christians are figuratively of the seed
                      of Abraham through faith in the Gospel of Christ.
                      I will agree, however, that he is figuratively of
                      the seed of Abraham in regards to his lineage.


                      > Pedro:
                      > John 8:56
                      > 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing
                      > my day; he saw it and was glad."


                      TIM H:
                      Jesus never called Abraham his father. He only called God
                      his Father. The above verse is Jesus speaking to the
                      Pharisees where Jesus says, "your" father Abraham -
                      NOT "my" father Abraham.


                      > > Tim H:
                      > > And, one last time, something cannot be BOTH figurative AND
                      > > literal. It's EITHER one OR the other. If it's figurative
                      > > then it's not literal. If it's literal then it's not
                      > > figurative. It CANNOT BE BOTH. That is contradictory.
                      > >
                      > > In Christ,
                      > > Tim H
                      >
                      >
                      > Pedro:
                      > Your logic does not allow you to go outside the box?
                      > Jesus is not only my brother figuratively, Jesus is my
                      > brother literally, Jesus is the Trinity, therefore The Son.
                      >
                      > In the Christ
                      >
                      > Pedro


                      TIM H:
                      I have no problem with thinking outside of the box, but I
                      do have a problem with using words incorrectly which is what
                      you are consistently doing with the terms literally and
                      figuratively. You obviously do not correctly comprehend
                      their meaning. I also have a problem with making up stuff
                      that is not supported by Scripture and trying to pass it
                      off as the truth - which you also do on a consistent basis.
                      As I have already plainly told you, I use the Holy Bible
                      as my authority and my standard for the truth of God.
                      I do not accept anything that men conjure up in their
                      own imaginations when it's not supported by Scripture.

                      In Christ,
                      Tim H
                    • peters
                      Hi Tim, comments in between ... Pedro: I guess we are talking two different languages. For my understanding of figurative is that of a spiritual nature, while
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 7, 2010
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                        Hi Tim, comments in between
                        >
                        >
                        > > > > > > Pedro wrote:
                        > > > > > > Jesus is figuratively and literally a Son of God,
                        > > > > > > He is The two yet One.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > In the Christ
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Pedro
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Tim H:
                        > > > > > Again, you are showing confusion in your usage of the two
                        > > > > > terms. Jesus is NOT figuratively the son of God, because
                        > > > > > he IS literally the son of God. To say that he is both is
                        > > > > > a contradiction and makes no sense.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > In Christ,
                        > > > > > Tim H
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Pedro:
                        > > > > Jesus was a Son of God thru the seed of Abraham literally
                        > > > > and figuratively.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The Son is the marriage of both the Body and the Spirit,
                        > > > > the Created and the Creator, therefore The Son of the
                        > > > > Creator, Our Father.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Tim H:
                        > > > I honestly don't know if you are just not comprehending what
                        > > > I am saying, or if perhaps you just think I don't know what
                        > > > I'm talking about, or if you are just being stubborn - or
                        > > > maybe it's a little of all three, but I'm feeling like what
                        > > > Sea posted earlier. It's like talking to a chair...
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Pedro:
                        > > I could say it is all three, but mainly
                        > > I do not comprehend your logic.
                        >
                        >
                        > TIM H:
                        > LOL, well, of the three possibilities that is the one
                        > that I preferred to believe. Anyway, it seems there is
                        > not much point in discussing literal vs figurative with
                        > you since we have no real communication on this subject.
                        >
                        >

                        Pedro:
                        I guess we are talking two different languages. For my understanding of figurative is that of a spiritual nature, while literal is of a physical nature.


                        > > > Tim H:
                        > > > You are absolutely wrong that Jesus was a son of God through
                        > > > the seed of Abraham. In order for Jesus to literally be of
                        > > > the seed of Abraham he would have to have a human father that
                        > > > was descended from Abraham - which he didn't - because God
                        > > > is his literal Father. Jesus is also not of the seed of
                        > > > of Abraham figuratively, either, like Christians are
                        > > > figuratively of the seed of Abraham through faith in
                        > > > the Gospel of Christ. Jesus made it clear that he was
                        > > > greater than Abraham.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Pedro:
                        > > Now, I do not know what i am talking about?
                        >
                        >
                        > TIM H:
                        > In regards to what is figurative and what is literal, no,
                        > I don't believe you know what you are talking about because
                        > I don't believe you correctly understand those terms.

                        Pedro:
                        the seed of Abraham in its physical nature, is that of His physical descendants, while the seed of Abraham in its spiritual nature is that of Faith.

                        Jesus fit both these terms, He was physically a descendant of Abraham as well as spiritually.
                        >
                        >
                        > > Pedro:
                        > > I am wrong?
                        > > That Jesus is the Son of God Thru the seed of Abraham??
                        > > Isn't He the Son of David Literally??
                        >
                        >
                        > TIM H:
                        > No, Jesus is the son of David figuratively speaking - not
                        > literally. For Jesus to be the son of David literally,
                        > David would have to be the one that impregnated Mary,
                        > which of course, is entirely impossible since they lived
                        > hundreds of years apart.

                        Pedro:
                        Scriptures give an account of Jesus genealogy thru David, Abraham till Adam

                        Tim:
                        > As far as Jesus being the son of God through the seed of
                        > Abraham literally, you would have to believe that Joseph
                        > was actually the father of Jesus and not God. You would
                        > have to believe that Joseph impregnated Mary and not God.
                        > If you believe as I do, that God impregnated Mary and
                        > therefore Jesus is the only begotten son of God, then
                        > you would also have to realize that being the son of
                        > David is figurative and not literal. Of course, I know
                        > you are not going to understand this, but I have to try...

                        Pedro:
                        No I do not have to believe that Joseph imregnated Mary, I have to believe that Mary was of the Seed of Abraham, a grandaughter of Abraham, skipping some generations.
                        >
                        >
                        > > Pedro:
                        > > Isn't He figuratively the Christ??
                        >
                        >
                        > TIM H:
                        > No, he is literally the Christ - not figuratively.

                        Pedro:
                        You lost me, I believe that Jesus is Spirit of the Christ,
                        Who is physically the man Jesus.
                        >
                        >
                        > > Pedro:
                        > > Abraham would be pleased, as He is I am sure to know that
                        > > His Son is greater than Him?
                        >
                        >
                        > TIM H:
                        > This makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever...
                        >
                        > I said that Jesus, the son of God, is greater than
                        > Abraham, so he is not figuratively of the seed of
                        > Abraham like Christians are figuratively of the seed
                        > of Abraham through faith in the Gospel of Christ.
                        > I will agree, however, that he is figuratively of
                        > the seed of Abraham in regards to his lineage.
                        >
                        Pedro:
                        Well this is what I am saying too, but it seems that I was not able to compose my thoughts.
                        Jesus is spiritually of the seed of Abraham in regards to his lineage.
                        >
                        > > Pedro:
                        > > John 8:56
                        > > 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing
                        > > my day; he saw it and was glad."
                        >
                        >
                        > TIM H:
                        > Jesus never called Abraham his father. He only called God
                        > his Father. The above verse is Jesus speaking to the
                        > Pharisees where Jesus says, "your" father Abraham -
                        > NOT "my" father Abraham.
                        >
                        Pedro:
                        God is His Father, No doubt about that. I am as well sure that Abraham saw Jesus, as Jesus saw Abraham In Heaven as well.
                        Yes Jesus is talking to the Pharisees who believed their Father, genetically, is Abraham. Jesus believed Abraham was his FAther in the spiritual sense, therefore when He saw the day of the Lord Jesus He, Abraham was glad.


                        >
                        > > > Tim H:
                        > > > And, one last time, something cannot be BOTH figurative AND
                        > > > literal. It's EITHER one OR the other. If it's figurative
                        > > > then it's not literal. If it's literal then it's not
                        > > > figurative. It CANNOT BE BOTH. That is contradictory.
                        > > >
                        > > > In Christ,
                        > > > Tim H
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Pedro:
                        > > Your logic does not allow you to go outside the box?
                        > > Jesus is not only my brother figuratively, Jesus is my
                        > > brother literally, Jesus is the Trinity, therefore The Son.
                        > >
                        > > In the Christ
                        > >
                        > > Pedro
                        >
                        >
                        > TIM H:
                        > I have no problem with thinking outside of the box, but I
                        > do have a problem with using words incorrectly which is what
                        > you are consistently doing with the terms literally and
                        > figuratively. You obviously do not correctly comprehend
                        > their meaning. I also have a problem with making up stuff
                        > that is not supported by Scripture and trying to pass it
                        > off as the truth - which you also do on a consistent basis.
                        > As I have already plainly told you, I use the Holy Bible
                        > as my authority and my standard for the truth of God.
                        > I do not accept anything that men conjure up in their
                        > own imaginations when it's not supported by Scripture.
                        >
                        > In Christ,
                        > Tim H
                        >

                        Pedro:

                        I appreciate the dialogue, and your perseverance.

                        I know you do not believe that Jesus is God, however now I understand that you believe He is the Son of God literally, which I undrstand to mean that Jesus is the figure of God.

                        I believe in a literal Father who is God, in a literal Son who is Jesus and in a literal Spirit who are his Holy people.

                        In the Christ

                        Pedro
                      • Tim H
                        Hi Pedro, my comments below. ... understanding of figurative is that of a spiritual nature, while literal is of a physical nature. TIM H: Figurative language
                        Message 11 of 27 , Feb 7, 2010
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                          Hi Pedro, my comments below.


                          > > Tim H:
                          > > LOL, well, of the three possibilities that is the one
                          > > that I preferred to believe. Anyway, it seems there is
                          > > not much point in discussing literal vs figurative with
                          > > you since we have no real communication on this subject.
                          >
                          >
                          > Pedro:
                          > I guess we are talking two different languages. For my
                          understanding of figurative is that of a spiritual nature,
                          while literal is of a physical nature.


                          TIM H:
                          Figurative language is referring to the figures of speech
                          used in language such as similes and metaphors, for example.
                          Figurative language is not spiritual language. They are not
                          the same thing at all. Your understanding of the difference
                          between literal and figurative language is totally incorrect.


                          > > Tim H:
                          > > No, Jesus is the son of David figuratively speaking - not
                          > > literally. For Jesus to be the son of David literally,
                          > > David would have to be the one that impregnated Mary,
                          > > which of course, is entirely impossible since they lived
                          > > hundreds of years apart.
                          >
                          >
                          > Pedro:
                          > Scriptures give an account of Jesus genealogy thru David,
                          > Abraham till Adam.


                          TIM H:
                          That's true, but that does not mean Jesus is literally the
                          son of David which I explained already. Jesus being the
                          son of David is, indeed, pointing to his genealogy, and
                          that is figuratively speaking.


                          > > Tim H:
                          > > As far as Jesus being the son of God through the seed of
                          > > Abraham literally, you would have to believe that Joseph
                          > > was actually the father of Jesus and not God. You would
                          > > have to believe that Joseph impregnated Mary and not God.
                          > > If you believe as I do, that God impregnated Mary and
                          > > therefore Jesus is the only begotten son of God, then
                          > > you would also have to realize that being the son of
                          > > David is figurative and not literal. Of course, I know
                          > > you are not going to understand this, but I have to try...
                          >
                          >
                          > Pedro:
                          > No I do not have to believe that Joseph imregnated Mary,
                          I have to believe that Mary was of the Seed of Abraham, a grandaughter of Abraham, skipping some generations.


                          TIM H:
                          I don't disagree with that, but of course, many do disagree
                          and it is still debated today. However, that is not the
                          point. The point is that God - not Joseph and not David -
                          is literally the Father of Jesus and that's why Jesus'
                          being the son of David is figurative and not literal.


                          > > > Pedro:
                          > > > Isn't He figuratively the Christ??
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Tim H:
                          > > No, he is literally the Christ - not figuratively.
                          >
                          > Pedro:
                          > You lost me, I believe that Jesus is Spirit of the Christ,
                          > Who is physically the man Jesus.


                          TIM H:
                          Nowhere does Scripture say Jesus is Spirit of the Christ.
                          It plainly says, Jesus, the man, is the Christ.


                          > > > Pedro:
                          > > > Abraham would be pleased, as He is I am sure to know that
                          > > > His Son is greater than Him?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Tim H:
                          > > This makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever...
                          > >
                          > > I said that Jesus, the son of God, is greater than
                          > > Abraham, so he is not figuratively of the seed of
                          > > Abraham like Christians are figuratively of the seed
                          > > of Abraham through faith in the Gospel of Christ.
                          > > I will agree, however, that he is figuratively of
                          > > the seed of Abraham in regards to his lineage.
                          >
                          >
                          > Pedro:
                          > Well this is what I am saying too, but it seems that I was
                          not able to compose my thoughts. Jesus is spiritually of the
                          seed of Abraham in regards to his lineage.


                          TIM H:
                          Nowhere does Scripture say that Jesus is spiritually of the
                          seed of Abraham. You have added the word "spiritually" to
                          what Scripture tells us. The lineage of Jesus given to us
                          in Scripture shows that he was a descendent of Abraham, but
                          we know that God was his true Father - not Joseph - so we can
                          realize that Jesus' being of the seed of Abraham is figurative
                          and not literal - although not the same as Christians who are
                          figuratively of the seed of Abraham through faith - for Jesus'
                          faith in God was greater than that of Abraham.


                          > > > Pedro:
                          > > > John 8:56
                          > > > 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing
                          > > > my day; he saw it and was glad."
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Tim H:
                          > > Jesus never called Abraham his father. He only called God
                          > > his Father. The above verse is Jesus speaking to the
                          > > Pharisees where Jesus says, "your" father Abraham -
                          > > NOT "my" father Abraham.
                          >
                          >
                          > Pedro:
                          > God is His Father, No doubt about that. I am as well sure
                          that Abraham saw Jesus, as Jesus saw Abraham In Heaven as well.


                          TIM H:
                          Again, you are making up stuff that is not in Scripture.


                          > Pedro:
                          > Yes Jesus is talking to the Pharisees who believed their
                          Father, genetically, is Abraham. Jesus believed Abraham was
                          his FAther in the spiritual sense, therefore when He saw the
                          day of the Lord Jesus He, Abraham was glad.


                          TIM H:
                          You are still making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                          There is nothing in Scripture that tells us Jesus believed
                          Abraham was his father in the spiritual sense. That is only
                          from your own imagination.


                          > > Tim H:
                          > > I have no problem with thinking outside of the box, but I
                          > > do have a problem with using words incorrectly which is what
                          > > you are consistently doing with the terms literally and
                          > > figuratively. You obviously do not correctly comprehend
                          > > their meaning. I also have a problem with making up stuff
                          > > that is not supported by Scripture and trying to pass it
                          > > off as the truth - which you also do on a consistent basis.
                          > > As I have already plainly told you, I use the Holy Bible
                          > > as my authority and my standard for the truth of God.
                          > > I do not accept anything that men conjure up in their
                          > > own imaginations when it's not supported by Scripture.
                          >
                          >
                          > Pedro:
                          > I appreciate the dialogue, and your perseverance.


                          TIM H:
                          I appreciate you having an interest in carrying on a
                          dialogue with me, although I admit it does get a bit
                          frustrating at times, too.


                          > Pedro:
                          > I know you do not believe that Jesus is God, however now
                          I understand that you believe He is the Son of God literally,
                          which I undrstand to mean that Jesus is the figure of God.


                          TIM H:
                          Yes, I believe Jesus is the son of God literally, and I
                          believe that Jesus was the image of God since he perfectly
                          represented God's Heart, Mind, and Will to mankind, and as
                          God's appointed representative to mankind He spoke for God.


                          > Pedro:
                          > I believe in a literal Father who is God, in a literal
                          Son who is Jesus and in a literal Spirit who are his Holy
                          people.
                          >
                          > In the Christ
                          >
                          > Pedro


                          TIM H:
                          I agree there is a literal Father who is God and a literal
                          son who is Jesus. I also believe that the literal Spirit
                          of God lives in all true believers in God and His son, the
                          true children of God who are His holy people.

                          In Christ,
                          Tim H
                        • peters
                          Hi Tim, ... Pedro: My understanding of figurative language is that of a picture in three D. THerefore Figure. The reality. While Literal is of the Spirit of
                          Message 12 of 27 , Feb 8, 2010
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                            Hi Tim,


                            >
                            > > > Tim H:
                            > > > LOL, well, of the three possibilities that is the one
                            > > > that I preferred to believe. Anyway, it seems there is
                            > > > not much point in discussing literal vs figurative with
                            > > > you since we have no real communication on this subject.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Pedro:
                            > > I guess we are talking two different languages. For my
                            > understanding of figurative is that of a spiritual nature,
                            > while literal is of a physical nature.
                            >
                            >
                            > TIM H:
                            > Figurative language is referring to the figures of speech
                            > used in language such as similes and metaphors, for example.
                            > Figurative language is not spiritual language. They are not
                            > the same thing at all. Your understanding of the difference
                            > between literal and figurative language is totally incorrect.

                            Pedro:
                            My understanding of figurative language is that of a picture in three D. THerefore Figure. The reality.
                            While Literal is of the Spirit of the leters in a word. The Truth.

                            But I it seems it is totally an incorrect understanding?

                            >
                            >
                            > > > Tim H:
                            > > > No, Jesus is the son of David figuratively speaking - not
                            > > > literally. For Jesus to be the son of David literally,
                            > > > David would have to be the one that impregnated Mary,
                            > > > which of course, is entirely impossible since they lived
                            > > > hundreds of years apart.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Pedro:
                            > > Scriptures give an account of Jesus genealogy thru David,
                            > > Abraham till Adam.
                            >
                            >
                            > TIM H:
                            > That's true, but that does not mean Jesus is literally the
                            > son of David which I explained already. Jesus being the
                            > son of David is, indeed, pointing to his genealogy, and
                            > that is figuratively speaking.

                            Pedro:
                            Romans11: 1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.


                            So Israelite is defined as a descendant of Abraham in a figurative sense,while God's people in a literal sense.

                            Romans11 13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

                            Abraham children are the root in a literal sense.

                            >
                            >
                            > > > Tim H:
                            > > > As far as Jesus being the son of God through the seed of
                            > > > Abraham literally, you would have to believe that Joseph
                            > > > was actually the father of Jesus and not God. You would
                            > > > have to believe that Joseph impregnated Mary and not God.
                            > > > If you believe as I do, that God impregnated Mary and
                            > > > therefore Jesus is the only begotten son of God, then
                            > > > you would also have to realize that being the son of
                            > > > David is figurative and not literal. Of course, I know
                            > > > you are not going to understand this, but I have to try...
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Pedro:
                            > > No I do not have to believe that Joseph imregnated Mary,
                            > I have to believe that Mary was of the Seed of Abraham, a grandaughter of Abraham, skipping some generations.
                            >
                            >
                            > TIM H:
                            > I don't disagree with that, but of course, many do disagree
                            > and it is still debated today. However, that is not the
                            > point. The point is that God - not Joseph and not David -
                            > is literally the Father of Jesus and that's why Jesus'
                            > being the son of David is figurative and not literal.

                            Pedro:
                            I can accept that. Jesus is the Son of Man figuratively and at the same time the Son of God literally.


                            >
                            >
                            > > > > Pedro:
                            > > > > Isn't He figuratively the Christ??
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Tim H:
                            > > > No, he is literally the Christ - not figuratively.
                            > >
                            > > Pedro:
                            > > You lost me, I believe that Jesus is Spirit of the Christ,
                            > > Who is physically the man Jesus.
                            >
                            >
                            > TIM H:
                            > Nowhere does Scripture say Jesus is Spirit of the Christ.
                            > It plainly says, Jesus, the man, is the Christ.

                            Pedro:
                            I do not want to go back to my understanding of the Greek word Chrsitos of which the word Christ is derived of.

                            Jesus is literally the Christ, figuratively He is THe Holy Spirit.


                            >
                            >
                            > > > > Pedro:
                            > > > > Abraham would be pleased, as He is I am sure to know that
                            > > > > His Son is greater than Him?
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Tim H:
                            > > > This makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever...
                            > > >
                            > > > I said that Jesus, the son of God, is greater than
                            > > > Abraham, so he is not figuratively of the seed of
                            > > > Abraham like Christians are figuratively of the seed
                            > > > of Abraham through faith in the Gospel of Christ.
                            > > > I will agree, however, that he is figuratively of
                            > > > the seed of Abraham in regards to his lineage.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Pedro:
                            > > Well this is what I am saying too, but it seems that I was
                            > not able to compose my thoughts. Jesus is spiritually of the
                            > seed of Abraham in regards to his lineage.
                            >
                            >
                            > TIM H:
                            > Nowhere does Scripture say that Jesus is spiritually of the
                            > seed of Abraham. You have added the word "spiritually" to
                            > what Scripture tells us. The lineage of Jesus given to us
                            > in Scripture shows that he was a descendent of Abraham, but
                            > we know that God was his true Father - not Joseph - so we can
                            > realize that Jesus' being of the seed of Abraham is figurative
                            > and not literal - although not the same as Christians who are
                            > figuratively of the seed of Abraham through faith - for Jesus'
                            > faith in God was greater than that of Abraham.

                            Pedro:
                            Again, I do accept that Jesus' being of the seed of Abraham is figurative and not literal -
                            and that Christians are figuratively of the seed of Abraham through faith and also thru birth literally.

                            >
                            >
                            > > > > Pedro:
                            > > > > John 8:56
                            > > > > 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing
                            > > > > my day; he saw it and was glad."
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Tim H:
                            > > > Jesus never called Abraham his father. He only called God
                            > > > his Father. The above verse is Jesus speaking to the
                            > > > Pharisees where Jesus says, "your" father Abraham -
                            > > > NOT "my" father Abraham.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Pedro:
                            > > God is His Father, No doubt about that. I am as well sure
                            > that Abraham saw Jesus, as Jesus saw Abraham In Heaven as well.
                            >
                            >
                            > TIM H:
                            > Again, you are making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                            >
                            Pedro:
                            It is my belief that Jesus is with Abraham in Heaven, But again Scripture does not say that, Even though I know it is the literal Truth of the Scripture.

                            >
                            > > Pedro:
                            > > Yes Jesus is talking to the Pharisees who believed their
                            > Father, genetically, is Abraham. Jesus believed Abraham was
                            > his FAther in the spiritual sense, therefore when He saw the
                            > day of the Lord Jesus He, Abraham was glad.
                            >
                            >
                            > TIM H:
                            > You are still making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                            > There is nothing in Scripture that tells us Jesus believed
                            > Abraham was his father in the spiritual sense. That is only
                            > from your own imagination.

                            Pedro:
                            The Pharisees believed they were the Israelites.

                            John 1 47When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false." 48"How do you know me?" Nathanael asked. Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you." 49Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel."

                            Ishra el literally means the People of EL.

                            >
                            >
                            > > > Tim H:
                            > > > I have no problem with thinking outside of the box, but I
                            > > > do have a problem with using words incorrectly which is what
                            > > > you are consistently doing with the terms literally and
                            > > > figuratively. You obviously do not correctly comprehend
                            > > > their meaning. I also have a problem with making up stuff
                            > > > that is not supported by Scripture and trying to pass it
                            > > > off as the truth - which you also do on a consistent basis.
                            > > > As I have already plainly told you, I use the Holy Bible
                            > > > as my authority and my standard for the truth of God.
                            > > > I do not accept anything that men conjure up in their
                            > > > own imaginations when it's not supported by Scripture.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Pedro:
                            > > I appreciate the dialogue, and your perseverance.
                            >
                            >
                            > TIM H:
                            > I appreciate you having an interest in carrying on a
                            > dialogue with me, although I admit it does get a bit
                            > frustrating at times, too.
                            >
                            >
                            > > Pedro:
                            > > I know you do not believe that Jesus is God, however now
                            > I understand that you believe He is the Son of God literally,
                            > which I undrstand to mean that Jesus is the figure of God.
                            >
                            >
                            > TIM H:
                            > Yes, I believe Jesus is the son of God literally, and I
                            > believe that Jesus was the image of God since he perfectly
                            > represented God's Heart, Mind, and Will to mankind, and as
                            > God's appointed representative to mankind He spoke for God.
                            >
                            >
                            > > Pedro:
                            > > I believe in a literal Father who is God, in a literal
                            > Son who is Jesus and in a literal Spirit who are his Holy
                            > people.
                            > >
                            > > In the Christ
                            > >
                            > > Pedro
                            >
                            >
                            > TIM H:
                            > I agree there is a literal Father who is God and a literal
                            > son who is Jesus. I also believe that the literal Spirit
                            > of God lives in all true believers in God and His son, the
                            > true children of God who are His holy people.
                            >
                            > In Christ,
                            > Tim H
                            >

                            Amen, Literally they are Three, Figuratively they are One.

                            In the Christ

                            Pedro
                          • Tim H
                            Hi Pedro, my comments below. ... in three D. THerefore Figure. The reality. While Literal is of the Spirit of the leters in a word. The Truth. ... TIM H: I
                            Message 13 of 27 , Feb 9, 2010
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                              Hi Pedro, my comments below.


                              > Pedro wrote:
                              > Hi Tim,
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > Tim H:
                              > > > > LOL, well, of the three possibilities that is the one
                              > > > > that I preferred to believe. Anyway, it seems there is
                              > > > > not much point in discussing literal vs figurative with
                              > > > > you since we have no real communication on this subject.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Pedro:
                              > > > I guess we are talking two different languages. For my
                              > > understanding of figurative is that of a spiritual nature,
                              > > while literal is of a physical nature.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Tim H:
                              > > Figurative language is referring to the figures of speech
                              > > used in language such as similes and metaphors, for example.
                              > > Figurative language is not spiritual language. They are not
                              > > the same thing at all. Your understanding of the difference
                              > > between literal and figurative language is totally incorrect.
                              >
                              >
                              > Pedro:
                              > My understanding of figurative language is that of a picture
                              in three D. THerefore Figure. The reality. While Literal is of
                              the Spirit of the leters in a word. The Truth.
                              >
                              > But I it seems it is totally an incorrect understanding?


                              TIM H:
                              I really can't say that your understanding is totally
                              incorrect since I am not inside your head and I can't
                              see and understand everything like God can. However,
                              what I can say is that what you describe to me as your
                              understanding does not agree with the definitions of
                              these words or how they are commonly used and understood
                              according to the rules of language for communication.

                              For example, you say "literal" is the Truth and that's not so.
                              The words "literal" and "figurative" do not define the truth.
                              Something that is literal can be true or false and something
                              that is figurative can be true or false.

                              If I say that my friend is a bear when he gets up in the
                              morning, that statement is literally false because he is
                              a man, but it's figuratively true because when he gets
                              up in the morning his behavior reminds one of how bears
                              behave. If I say that on the Thanksgiving holiday I'm
                              a pig, that statement is literally false because I am
                              a man and never actually turn into a pig. At the same
                              time it's figuratively true since I eat like a pig on
                              that day. Most everyone would know what I mean by saying
                              that I'm a pig on Thanksgiving, and they would know to
                              not take the statement literally.

                              This is as basic of an explanation as I can give. What I
                              am describing is a metaphor which is just one of the many
                              figures of speech used in common, everyday language that
                              are also used in Scripture, as well. It is very important
                              to correctly understand the figures of speech used in
                              Scripture in order to correctly discern the Truth.
                              Taking things literally that were written figuratively
                              and taking things figuratively that were written literally
                              is a very common mistake that leads to misinterpretation
                              of the Bible writers' intended meaning, and thus leads
                              one into error.


                              > > > > Tim H:
                              > > > > No, Jesus is the son of David figuratively speaking - not
                              > > > > literally. For Jesus to be the son of David literally,
                              > > > > David would have to be the one that impregnated Mary,
                              > > > > which of course, is entirely impossible since they lived
                              > > > > hundreds of years apart.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Pedro:
                              > > > Scriptures give an account of Jesus genealogy thru David,
                              > > > Abraham till Adam.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Tim H:
                              > > That's true, but that does not mean Jesus is literally the
                              > > son of David which I explained already. Jesus being the
                              > > son of David is, indeed, pointing to his genealogy, and
                              > > that is figuratively speaking.
                              >
                              >
                              > Pedro:
                              > Romans11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!
                              I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the
                              tribe of Benjamin.
                              >
                              > So Israelite is defined as a descendant of Abraham in a
                              figurative sense,while God's people in a literal sense.


                              TIM H:
                              This does not define an Israelite as a descendent of Abraham.
                              Yes, Israelites are descendents of Abraham, but non-Israelites
                              are also descendents of Abraham. What makes Paul an Israelite
                              is not because he was descended from Abraham, but because he
                              was of the tribe of Benjamin.


                              > Pedro:
                              > Romans11 13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am
                              the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in
                              the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and
                              save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation
                              of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the
                              dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy,
                              then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the
                              branches.
                              >
                              > Abraham children are the root in a literal sense.


                              TIM H:
                              First of all, if your above statement was true, it would be
                              figuratively true, not literally true. Nevertheless, it is
                              Jesus Christ who is the root, and Christians are the branches.

                              Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of
                              Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in
                              him shall the Gentiles trust.

                              Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love...

                              Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord,
                              so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished
                              in the faith...



                              > > > > Tim H:
                              > > > > As far as Jesus being the son of God through the seed of
                              > > > > Abraham literally, you would have to believe that Joseph
                              > > > > was actually the father of Jesus and not God. You would
                              > > > > have to believe that Joseph impregnated Mary and not God.
                              > > > > If you believe as I do, that God impregnated Mary and
                              > > > > therefore Jesus is the only begotten son of God, then
                              > > > > you would also have to realize that being the son of
                              > > > > David is figurative and not literal. Of course, I know
                              > > > > you are not going to understand this, but I have to try...
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Pedro:
                              > > > No I do not have to believe that Joseph imregnated Mary,
                              > > I have to believe that Mary was of the Seed of Abraham, a grandaughter of Abraham, skipping some generations.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Tim H:
                              > > I don't disagree with that, but of course, many do disagree
                              > > and it is still debated today. However, that is not the
                              > > point. The point is that God - not Joseph and not David -
                              > > is literally the Father of Jesus and that's why Jesus'
                              > > being the son of David is figurative and not literal.
                              >
                              > Pedro:
                              > I can accept that. Jesus is the Son of Man figuratively and
                              > at the same time the Son of God literally.


                              TIM H:
                              No, Jesus was literally the son of man and is literally the son
                              of God. They are both literally true. That's because the phrase
                              "son of man" simply means "a man." Is the risen Christ still
                              a man? I believe so since Paul refers to him as a man long
                              after his death and resurrection, but of course he is much more
                              than just a natural human being now, so even though I believe
                              he is still a man, he is also a supernatural being - obviously
                              we will have to wait until he returns to find out the details.


                              > > > > > Pedro:
                              > > > > > Isn't He figuratively the Christ??
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Tim H:
                              > > > > No, he is literally the Christ - not figuratively.
                              > > >
                              > > > Pedro:
                              > > > You lost me, I believe that Jesus is Spirit of the Christ,
                              > > > Who is physically the man Jesus.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Tim H:
                              > > Nowhere does Scripture say Jesus is Spirit of the Christ.
                              > > It plainly says, Jesus, the man, is the Christ.
                              >
                              >
                              > Pedro:
                              > I do not want to go back to my understanding of the Greek
                              word Christos of which the word Christ is derived of.
                              >
                              > Jesus is literally the Christ, figuratively He is THe Holy
                              Spirit.


                              TIM H:
                              Again, you are making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                              Yes, Jesus is literally the Christ because Scripture plainly
                              tells us that, but nowhere does Scripture say that he is the
                              Holy Spirit - neither literally nor figuratively.


                              > > > > > Pedro:
                              > > > > > Abraham would be pleased, as He is I am sure to know
                              > > > > > that His Son is greater than Him?
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Tim H:
                              > > > > This makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever...
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I said that Jesus, the son of God, is greater than
                              > > > > Abraham, so he is not figuratively of the seed of
                              > > > > Abraham like Christians are figuratively of the seed
                              > > > > of Abraham through faith in the Gospel of Christ.
                              > > > > I will agree, however, that he is figuratively of
                              > > > > the seed of Abraham in regards to his lineage.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Pedro:
                              > > > Well this is what I am saying too, but it seems that I was
                              > > not able to compose my thoughts. Jesus is spiritually of the
                              > > seed of Abraham in regards to his lineage.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Tim H:
                              > > Nowhere does Scripture say that Jesus is spiritually of the
                              > > seed of Abraham. You have added the word "spiritually" to
                              > > what Scripture tells us. The lineage of Jesus given to us
                              > > in Scripture shows that he was a descendent of Abraham, but
                              > > we know that God was his true Father - not Joseph - so we can
                              > > realize that Jesus' being of the seed of Abraham is figurative
                              > > and not literal - although not the same as Christians who are
                              > > figuratively of the seed of Abraham through faith - for Jesus'
                              > > faith in God was greater than that of Abraham.
                              >
                              >
                              > Pedro:
                              > Again, I do accept that Jesus' being of the seed of Abraham
                              is figurative and not literal - and that Christians are
                              figuratively of the seed of Abraham through faith and also
                              thru birth literally.


                              TIM H:
                              You certainly have the right to believe anything you want
                              to believe just as we all do, and you have the freedom to
                              make up anything you want to believe even when it's not in
                              Scripture - but I highly advise against it.


                              > > > > > Pedro:
                              > > > > > John 8:56
                              > > > > > 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of
                              > > > > > seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Tim H:
                              > > > > Jesus never called Abraham his father. He only called
                              > > > > God his Father. The above verse is Jesus speaking to
                              > > > > the Pharisees where Jesus says, "your" father Abraham -
                              > > > > NOT "my" father Abraham.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Pedro:
                              > > > God is His Father, No doubt about that. I am as well sure
                              > > that Abraham saw Jesus, as Jesus saw Abraham In Heaven as well.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Tim H:
                              > > Again, you are making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                              >
                              >
                              > Pedro:
                              > It is my belief that Jesus is with Abraham in Heaven, But
                              again Scripture does not say that, Even though I know it is
                              the literal Truth of the Scripture.


                              TIM H:
                              If Scripture does not say it, then you cannot know that
                              it is the literal truth of Scripture. If Scripture does
                              not say it, then you are simply imagining it with your
                              own imagination - "making up stuff" just like I've said.

                              According to Scripture Jesus is in heaven at the right hand
                              of God, but Abraham is not in heaven, just as King David is
                              not in heaven. They are dead and waiting for the resurrection
                              just like everyone else. Just read the following passage:

                              Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of
                              the patriarch David [and Abraham, and everyone else] that he
                              is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto
                              this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God
                              had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins,
                              according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on His
                              throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of
                              Christ, that his soul was not left in hell [the grave], neither
                              his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up,
                              whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right
                              hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the
                              promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which
                              ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the
                              heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord [God] said unto my
                              Lord [Jesus Christ], Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I
                              make thy foes thy footstool.

                              Abraham is not in heaven, just as King David is not in
                              heaven. Jesus Christ was raised from the dead by God
                              as the FIRSTFRUITS. Jesus was the FIRST to be raised
                              from the dead by God and given everlasting life. Everyone
                              else is DEAD and awaiting the resurrection of the DEAD.
                              Just read 1 Corinthians chapter 15.


                              > > > Pedro:
                              > > > Yes Jesus is talking to the Pharisees who believed their
                              > > Father, genetically, is Abraham. Jesus believed Abraham was
                              > > his FAther in the spiritual sense, therefore when He saw the
                              > > day of the Lord Jesus He, Abraham was glad.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Tim H:
                              > > You are still making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                              > > There is nothing in Scripture that tells us Jesus believed
                              > > Abraham was his father in the spiritual sense. That is
                              > > only from your own imagination.
                              >
                              >
                              > Pedro:
                              > The Pharisees believed they were the Israelites.
                              >
                              > John 1 47When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false." 48"How do you know me?" Nathanael asked. Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you." 49Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel."
                              >
                              > Ishra el literally means the People of EL.
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > Tim H:
                              > > > > I have no problem with thinking outside of the box, but I
                              > > > > do have a problem with using words incorrectly which is what
                              > > > > you are consistently doing with the terms literally and
                              > > > > figuratively. You obviously do not correctly comprehend
                              > > > > their meaning. I also have a problem with making up stuff
                              > > > > that is not supported by Scripture and trying to pass it
                              > > > > off as the truth - which you also do on a consistent basis.
                              > > > > As I have already plainly told you, I use the Holy Bible
                              > > > > as my authority and my standard for the truth of God.
                              > > > > I do not accept anything that men conjure up in their
                              > > > > own imaginations when it's not supported by Scripture.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Pedro:
                              > > > I appreciate the dialogue, and your perseverance.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Tim H:
                              > > I appreciate you having an interest in carrying on a
                              > > dialogue with me, although I admit it does get a bit
                              > > frustrating at times, too.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > > Pedro:
                              > > > I know you do not believe that Jesus is God, however now
                              > > I understand that you believe He is the Son of God literally,
                              > > which I undrstand to mean that Jesus is the figure of God.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Tim H:
                              > > Yes, I believe Jesus is the son of God literally, and I
                              > > believe that Jesus was the image of God since he perfectly
                              > > represented God's Heart, Mind, and Will to mankind, and as
                              > > God's appointed representative to mankind He spoke for God.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > > Pedro:
                              > > > I believe in a literal Father who is God, in a literal
                              > > Son who is Jesus and in a literal Spirit who are his Holy
                              > > people.
                              > > >
                              > > > In the Christ
                              > > >
                              > > > Pedro
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Tim H:
                              > > I agree there is a literal Father who is God and a literal
                              > > son who is Jesus. I also believe that the literal Spirit
                              > > of God lives in all true believers in God and His son, the
                              > > true children of God who are His holy people.
                              > >
                              > > In Christ,
                              > > Tim H
                              > >
                              >
                              > Amen, Literally they are Three, Figuratively they are One.
                              >
                              > In the Christ
                              >
                              > Pedro


                              TIM H:
                              There you go again, making up stuff that is not in Scripture.

                              In Christ,
                              Tim H
                            • peters
                              Tim H: All of mankind are children of God figuratively speaking since God is the Creator of mankind. However, Jesus Christ is the only son of God literally
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 10, 2010
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                                Tim H:
                                All of mankind are children of God figuratively speaking since God is the Creator of mankind. However, Jesus Christ is the only son of God literally speaking. Try not to get the literal and figurative confused. It's either/or. It cannot be both figurative and literal. It's one or the other. If it's figurative, then it's not literal. If it's literal, then it's not figurative.

                                Butros:
                                I agree we are children of God figuratively speaking since God is the Creator of mankind. and that Jesus Christ is the only son of God literally speaking.
                                I would assume you mean, He is literally God the Son?
                                But I know that is not your belief. May be you could elaborate on this point.

                                Tim H:
                                Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God according to Scripture. He is NOT God the Son. That is according to the false teaching of men that is not Scriptural.

                                Butros:
                                I agree with you that Jesus is the Son of God literally, while I am a son of God figuratively, yet I am literally a son of my father and mother who where both Christians.


                                TIM H:
                                Exactly! This shows a correct understanding.

                                Butros:
                                I am not getting the literal with the figurative confused, but we are talking about the spirit of Christ? There is nothing literal about God except His Children?

                                Tim H:
                                Obviously, when you say something is both literal and figurative at the same time - which you did - you are confused about what those terms mean.

                                Butros wrote:
                                Jesus is figuratively and literally a Son of God, He is The two yet One.

                                Tim H:
                                Again, you are showing confusion in your usage of the two terms. Jesus is NOT figuratively the son of God, because he IS literally the son of God. To say that he is both is a contradiction and makes no sense.

                                Butros:
                                Jesus was a Son of God thru the seed of Abraham literally and figuratively.
                                The Son is the `marriage' of both, the Body and the Spirit, the Created and the Creator, therefore The Son of the Creator, Our Father.

                                Steve:
                                I agree with this. This makes Jesus the only kin-related Son of God
                                (Luke 1:35), having God rather than a man as His Father and Mary as His mother,
                                all others sons of God being adopted or called sons for some other reason.

                                TIM H:
                                Hi Butros. I honestly don't know if you are just not comprehending what I am saying, or if perhaps you just think I don't know what I'm talking about, or if you are just being stubborn – or maybe it's a little of all three, but I'm feeling like what Sea posted earlier. It's like talking to a chair...

                                You are absolutely wrong that Jesus was a son of God through the seed of Abraham. In order for Jesus to literally be of the seed of Abraham he would have to have a human father that was descended from Abraham - which he didn't - because God is his literal Father. Jesus is also not of the seed of of Abraham figuratively, either, like Christians are figuratively of the seed of Abraham through faith in the Gospel of Christ. Jesus made it clear that he was greater than Abraham.

                                And, one last time, something cannot be BOTH figurative AND literal. It's EITHER one OR the other. If it's figurative then it's not literal. If it's literal then it's not figurative. It CANNOT BE BOTH. That is contradictory.

                                Butros:
                                I could say it is all three, but mainly I do not comprehend your logic.

                                Tim H:
                                LOL, well, of the three possibilities that is the one that I preferred to believe. Anyway, it seems there is not much point in discussing literal vs figurative with you since we have no real communication on this subject.

                                Butros:
                                I guess we are talking two different languages. For my understanding of figurative is that of a spiritual nature, while literal is of a physical nature.

                                TIM H:
                                Figurative language is referring to the figures of speech used in language such as similes and metaphors, for example. Figurative language is not spiritual language. They are not the same thing at all. Your understanding of the difference between literal and figurative language is totally incorrect.

                                Butros:
                                My understanding of figurative language is that of a picture in three D.
                                THerefore Figure. The reality.

                                While Literal is of the Spirit of the leters in a word. The Truth.

                                But I seem to be totally incorrect in my understanding?

                                TIM H:
                                I really can't say that your understanding is totally incorrect since I am not inside your head and I can't see and understand everything like God can. However, what I can say is that what you describe to me as your understanding does not agree with the definitions of these words or how they are commonly used and understood according to the rules of language for communication.
                                For example, you say "literal" is the Truth and that's not so. The words "literal" and "figurative" do not define the truth. Something that is literal can be true or false and something that is figurative can be true or false.
                                If I say that my friend is a bear when he gets up in the morning, that statement is literally false because he is a man, but it's figuratively true because when he gets up in the morning his behavior reminds one of how bears behave. If I say that on the Thanksgiving holiday I'm a pig, that statement is literally false because I am a man and never actually turn into a pig. At the same time it's figuratively true since I eat like a pig on that day. Most everyone would know what I mean by saying that I'm a pig on Thanksgiving, and they would know to not take the statement literally.
                                This is as basic of an explanation as I can give. What I am describing is a metaphor which is just one of the many figures of speech used in common, everyday language that are also used in Scripture, as well. It is very important to correctly understand the figures of speech used in Scripture in order to correctly discern the Truth.
                                Taking things literally that were written figuratively and taking things figuratively that were written literally is a very common mistake that leads to misinterpretation of the Bible writers' intended meaning, and thus leads one into error.

                                Butros:
                                Now if I say that Jesus is the Son of God literally within it is implied that He is God the Son figuratively. While we are children of God figuratively yet the Holy People literally whose Patriarch is Abraham and Jesus son of David being The Holy Christ, `Our King'.

                                Tim H:
                                No, Jesus is the son of David figuratively speaking – not literally. For Jesus to be the son of David literally, David would have to be the one that impregnated Mary, which of course, is entirely impossible since they lived hundreds of years apart.

                                Butros:
                                Scriptures give an account of Jesus genealogy thru David, Abraham till Adam.

                                TIM H:
                                That's true, but that does not mean Jesus is literally the son of David which I explained already. Jesus being the son of David is, indeed, pointing to his genealogy, and that is figuratively speaking.

                                Butros:
                                Romans11: 1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an
                                Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.


                                So Israelite is defined as a descendant of Abraham in a figurative sense, while
                                God's people in a literal sense.

                                TIM H:
                                This does not define an Israelite as a descendent of Abraham. Yes, Israelites are descendents of Abraham, but non-Israelites are also descendents of Abraham. What makes Paul an Israelite is not because he was descended from Abraham, but because he was of the tribe of Benjamin.

                                Butros:
                                I am using the word Israelite in the way Jesus used it when talking to Nathaneel.
                                John 1 47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
                                Abraham fits this definition. Especially when scriptures call him the companion of God?


                                Butros:
                                Romans11 13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the
                                Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my
                                own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the wholebatch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

                                Abraham children are the root in a literal sense.

                                TIM H:
                                First of all, if your above statement was true, it would be figuratively true, not literally true. Nevertheless, it is Jesus Christ who is the root, and Christians are the branches.

                                Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

                                Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted
                                and grounded in love...

                                Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith...

                                Butros:
                                If one wants to be technical we are part of the Tree, hopefully the fruits? LOL


                                Tim H:
                                As far as Jesus being the son of God through the seed of Abraham literally, you would have to believe that Joseph was actually the father of Jesus and not God. You would have to believe that Joseph impregnated Mary and not God. If you believe as I do, that God impregnated Mary and therefore Jesus is the only begotten son of God, then you would also have to realize that being the son of David is figurative and not literal. Of course, I know you are not going to understand this, but I have to try...

                                Butros:
                                No I do not have to believe that Joseph impregnated Mary, I have to believe that Mary was of the Seed of Abraham, a granddaughter of Abraham, skipping some generations.

                                TIM H:
                                I don't disagree with that, but of course, many do disagree and it is still debated today. However, that is not the point. The point is that God - not Joseph and not David - is literally the Father of Jesus and that's why Jesus' being the son of David is figurative and not literal.

                                Butros:
                                I can accept that. Jesus is the Son of Man figuratively and at the same time the
                                Son of God literally.

                                TIM H:
                                No, Jesus was literally the son of man and is literally the son of God. They are both literally true. That's because the phrase "son of man" simply means "a man." Is the risen Christ still a man? I believe so since Paul refers to him as a man long after his death and resurrection, but of course he is much more than just a natural human being now, so even though I believe he is still a man, he is also a supernatural being – obviously we will have to wait until he returns to find out the details.

                                Butros:
                                A superanatrual eternal being is my understanding of God.

                                Butros:
                                Isn't He figuratively the Christ??

                                Tim H:
                                No, he is literally the Christ - not figuratively.

                                Butros:
                                You lost me, I believe that Jesus is Spirit of the Christ, Who is physically the man Jesus.

                                TIM H:
                                Nowhere does Scripture say Jesus is Spirit of the Christ.
                                It plainly says, Jesus, the man, is the Christ.

                                Butros:
                                I do not want to go back to my understanding of the Greek word Chrsitos of which
                                the word Christ is derived of.

                                Jesus is literally the Christ, figuratively He is THe Temple of The Holy Spirit as are we.


                                TIM H:
                                Again, you are making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                Yes, Jesus is literally the Christ because Scripture plainly tells us that, but nowhere does Scripture say that he is the Holy Spirit - neither literally nor figuratively.

                                Butros:
                                Abraham would be pleased, as He is I am sure, to know that His Son is greater than Him?

                                Tim H:
                                This makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever...
                                I said that Jesus, the son of God, is greater than Abraham, so he is not figuratively of the seed of Abraham like Christians are figuratively of the seed of Abraham through faith in the Gospel of Christ. I will agree, however, that he is figuratively of the seed of Abraham in regards to his lineage.

                                Butros:
                                Well this is what I am saying too, but it seems that I was not able to compose my thoughts. Jesus is spiritually of the seed of Abraham in regards to his lineage.

                                TIM H:
                                Nowhere does Scripture say that Jesus is spiritually of the seed of Abraham. You have added the word "spiritually" to what Scripture tells us. The lineage of Jesus given to us in Scripture shows that he was a descendent of Abraham, but we know that God was his true Father - not Joseph - so we can realize that Jesus' being of the seed of Abraham is figurative and not literal - although not the same as Christians who are figuratively of the seed of Abraham through faith - for Jesus' faith in God was greater than that of Abraham.

                                Butros:
                                Again, I do accept that Jesus' being of the seed of Abraham is figurative and
                                not literal -
                                and that Christians are figuratively of the seed of Abraham through faith and
                                also thru birth literally.

                                TIM H:
                                You certainly have the right to believe anything you want to believe just as we all do, and you have the freedom to make up anything you want to believe even when it's not in Scripture - but I highly advise against it.

                                Butros:
                                You are accusing me of making up stuff if I say thru literal birth?
                                John 3 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.

                                Butros:
                                John 8:56
                                56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

                                Tim H:
                                Jesus never called Abraham his father. He only called God his Father. The above verse is Jesus speaking to the Pharisees where Jesus says, "your" father Abraham - NOT "my" father Abraham.

                                Butros:
                                God is His Father, No doubt about that. I am as well sure that Abraham saw Jesus, as Jesus saw Abraham In Heaven as well.

                                TIM H:
                                Again, you are making up stuff that is not in Scripture.

                                Butros:
                                It is my belief that Jesus is with Abraham in Heaven, But again Scripture does
                                not say that, Even though I know it is the literal Truth of the Scripture.

                                TIM H:
                                If Scripture does not say it, then you cannot know that it is the literal truth of Scripture. If Scripture does not say it, then you are simply imagining it with your own imagination - "making up stuff" just like I've said.
                                According to Scripture Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of God, but Abraham is not in heaven, just as King David is not in heaven. They are dead and waiting for the resurrection just like everyone else. Just read the following passage:
                                Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David [and Abraham, and everyone else] that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on His throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell [the grave], neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, ,whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord [God] said unto my Lord [Jesus Christ], Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
                                Abraham is not in heaven, just as King David is not in, heaven. Jesus Christ was raised from the dead by God as the FIRSTFRUITS. Jesus was the FIRST to be raised from the dead by God and given everlasting life. Everyone else is DEAD and awaiting the resurrection of the DEAD. Just read 1 Corinthians chapter 15.

                                Butros:
                                Hebrews 2 14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants.

                                Butros:
                                Yes Jesus is talking to the Pharisees who believed their Father, genetically, is Abraham. Jesus believed Abraham was his FAther in the spiritual sense, therefore when He saw the day of the Lord Jesus He, Abraham was glad.

                                TIM H:
                                You are still making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                There is nothing in Scripture that tells us Jesus believed Abraham was his father in the spiritual sense. That is only from your own imagination.

                                Butros:
                                The Pharisees believed they were the Israelites.

                                John 1 47When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true
                                Israelite, in whom there is nothing false." 48"How do you know me?" Nathanael
                                asked. Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before
                                Philip called you." 49Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God;
                                you are the King of Israel."

                                Ishra el literally means the People of EL.

                                Tim H:
                                I have no problem with thinking outside of the box, but I do have a problem with using words incorrectly which is what you are consistently doing with the terms literally and figuratively. You obviously do not correctly comprehend their meaning. I also have a problem with making up stuff that is not supported by Scripture and trying to pass it off as the truth - which you also do on a consistent basis. As I have already plainly told you, I use the Holy Bible as my authority and my standard for the truth of God. I do not accept anything that men conjure up in their own imaginations when it's not supported by Scripture.

                                Butros:
                                Acts 13 22After removing Saul, he made David their king. He testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.' 23"From this man's descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised. 24Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel. 25As John was completing his work, he said: 'Who do you think I am? I am not that one. No, but he is coming after me, whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.' 26"Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

                                I appreciate the dialogue, and your perseverance.

                                TIM H:
                                I appreciate you having an interest in carrying on a dialogue with me, although I admit it does get a bit frustrating at times, too.

                                Butros:
                                I know you do not believe that Jesus is God, however now I understand that you believe He is the Son of God literally, which I understand to mean that Jesus is the figure of God.

                                TIM H:
                                Yes, I believe Jesus is the son of God literally, and I believe that Jesus was the image of God since he perfectly represented God's Heart, Mind, and Will to mankind, and as God's appointed representative to mankind He spoke for God.

                                Butros:
                                I believe in a literal Father who is God, in a literal Son who is Jesus and in a literal Spirit who are his Holy people.

                                TIM H:
                                I agree there is a literal Father who is God and a literal son who is Jesus. I also believe that the literal Spirit of God lives in all true believers in God and His son, the true children of God who are His holy people.

                                Butros:
                                Amen, Literally they are Three, Figuratively they are One.

                                TIM H:
                                There you go again, making up stuff that is not in Scripture.

                                Butros:
                                Just was agreeing with what you stated. LOL

                                In the Christ
                                Butros Abu Shanab
                                Chairman HOLYLANDERS
                              • Tim H
                                Hi Pedro, my comments below. ... taking things figuratively that were written literally is a very common mistake that leads to misinterpretation of the Bible
                                Message 15 of 27 , Feb 10, 2010
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                                  Hi Pedro, my comments below.


                                  > Tim H wrote:
                                  > Taking things literally that were written figuratively and
                                  taking things figuratively that were written literally is a
                                  very common mistake that leads to misinterpretation of the
                                  Bible writers' intended meaning, and thus leads one into error.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Pedro:
                                  > Now if I say that Jesus is the Son of God literally within
                                  it is implied that He is God the Son figuratively. While we
                                  are children of God figuratively yet the Holy People literally
                                  whose Patriarch is Abraham and Jesus son of David being The
                                  Holy Christ, `Our King'.


                                  TIM H:
                                  No, not at all. Saying Jesus is the son of God literally
                                  agrees with what Scripture tells us. Saying that he is
                                  God the Son figuratively is not what Scripture tells us.
                                  Scripture says no such thing. The phrase "God the Son"
                                  was invented by the same men who also invented the false
                                  doctrine of the trinity, and those who have chosen to
                                  believe in that doctrine even though it is not Biblical.
                                  There is nothing in Scripture that implies that Jesus
                                  was or is "God the Son."


                                  > Pedro:
                                  > Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no
                                  means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham,
                                  from the tribe of Benjamin.
                                  >
                                  > So Israelite is defined as a descendant of Abraham in a
                                  figurative sense, while God's people in a literal sense.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Tim H:
                                  > This does not define an Israelite as a descendent of Abraham.
                                  Yes, Israelites are descendents of Abraham, but non-Israelites
                                  are also descendents of Abraham. What makes Paul an Israelite
                                  is not because he was descended from Abraham, but because he
                                  was of the tribe of Benjamin.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Pedro:
                                  > I am using the word Israelite in the way Jesus used it when
                                  talking to Nathaneel.
                                  > John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of
                                  him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Abraham
                                  fits this definition. Especially when scriptures call him the
                                  companion of God?


                                  TIM H:
                                  I see no logic in your explanation. Again, Abraham was not
                                  an Israelite neither literally nor figuratively, so he does
                                  not fit this "definition," and just because Jesus called
                                  Nathanael an Israelite does not change this fact.


                                  > Pedro:
                                  > I can accept that. Jesus is the Son of Man figuratively and
                                  at the same time the Son of God literally.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Tim H:
                                  > No, Jesus was literally the son of man and is literally the
                                  son of God. They are both literally true. That's because the
                                  phrase "son of man" simply means "a man." Is the risen Christ
                                  still a man? I believe so since Paul refers to him as a man
                                  long after his death and resurrection, but of course he is
                                  much more than just a natural human being now, so even though
                                  I believe he is still a man, he is also a supernatural being –
                                  obviously we will have to wait until he returns to find out the
                                  details.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Pedro:
                                  > A supernatural eternal being is my understanding of God.


                                  TIM H:
                                  Certainly God is an Eternal supernatural Being, but God
                                  has always been God with no beginning and no end - and
                                  God cannot die. On the other hand, even though Jesus now
                                  lives forever because God raised him from the dead and gave
                                  him immortality, he did have a beginning. Also, Jesus could
                                  and did die before God raised him from the dead to immortality.


                                  > Tim H:
                                  > You certainly have the right to believe anything you want
                                  to believe just as we all do, and you have the freedom to
                                  make up anything you want to believe even when it's not in
                                  Scripture - but I highly advise against it.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Pedro:
                                  > You are accusing me of making up stuff if I say thru literal
                                  birth? John 3 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one
                                  can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and
                                  the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b]
                                  gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my
                                  saying, 'You[c] must be born again.


                                  TIM H:
                                  I'm sorry, I do not understand what you are trying to say here.


                                  > Tim H:
                                  > Jesus never called Abraham his father. He only called God his Father. The above verse is Jesus speaking to the Pharisees where Jesus says, "your" father Abraham - NOT "my" father Abraham.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Pedro:
                                  > God is His Father, No doubt about that. I am as well sure
                                  that Abraham saw Jesus, as Jesus saw Abraham In Heaven as well.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Tim H:
                                  > Again, you are making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Pedro:
                                  > It is my belief that Jesus is with Abraham in Heaven, But
                                  again Scripture does not say that, Even though I know it is
                                  the literal Truth of the Scripture.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Tim H:
                                  > If Scripture does not say it, then you cannot know that
                                  it is the literal truth of Scripture. If Scripture does not
                                  say it, then you are simply imagining it with your own
                                  imagination - "making up stuff" just like I've said.
                                  > According to Scripture Jesus is in heaven at the right
                                  hand of God, but Abraham is not in heaven, just as King
                                  David is not in heaven. They are dead and waiting for the
                                  resurrection just like everyone else. Just read the
                                  following passage:
                                  >
                                  > Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you
                                  of the patriarch David [and Abraham, and everyone else] that
                                  he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto
                                  this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God
                                  had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins,
                                  according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on His
                                  throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of
                                  Christ, that his soul was not left in hell [the grave], neither
                                  his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised
                                  up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the
                                  right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father
                                  the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which
                                  ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the
                                  heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord [God] said unto my
                                  Lord [Jesus Christ], Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I
                                  make thy foes thy footstool.
                                  >
                                  > Abraham is not in heaven, just as King David is not in heaven.
                                  Jesus Christ was raised from the dead by God as the FIRSTFRUITS.
                                  Jesus was the FIRST to be raised from the dead by God and given
                                  everlasting life. Everyone else is DEAD and awaiting the
                                  resurrection of the DEAD. Just read 1 Corinthians chapter 15.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Pedro:
                                  > Hebrews 2 14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too
                                  shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy
                                  him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free
                                  those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of
                                  death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's
                                  descendants.


                                  TIM H:
                                  So, what is your point for citing this Scripture?


                                  > Pedro:
                                  > Yes Jesus is talking to the Pharisees who believed their
                                  Father, genetically, is Abraham. Jesus believed Abraham was
                                  his FAther in the spiritual sense, therefore when He saw the
                                  day of the Lord Jesus He, Abraham was glad.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Tim H:
                                  > You are still making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                  There is nothing in Scripture that tells us Jesus believed
                                  Abraham was his father in the spiritual sense. That is only
                                  from your own imagination.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Butros:
                                  > The Pharisees believed they were the Israelites.


                                  TIM H:
                                  That's because the Pharisees were Israelites.


                                  > Pedro:
                                  > I know you do not believe that Jesus is God, however now I
                                  understand that you believe He is the Son of God literally,
                                  which I understand to mean that Jesus is the figure of God.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Tim H:
                                  > Yes, I believe Jesus is the son of God literally, and I
                                  believe that Jesus was the image of God since he perfectly
                                  represented God's Heart, Mind, and Will to mankind, and as
                                  God's appointed representative to mankind He spoke for God.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Butros:
                                  > I believe in a literal Father who is God, in a literal Son
                                  who is Jesus and in a literal Spirit who are his Holy people.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Tim H:
                                  > I agree there is a literal Father who is God and a literal
                                  son who is Jesus. I also believe that the literal Spirit of
                                  God lives in all true believers in God and His son, the true
                                  children of God who are His holy people.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Pedro:
                                  > Amen, Literally they are Three, Figuratively they are One.
                                  >
                                  > Tim H:
                                  > There you go again, making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                  >
                                  > Pedro:
                                  > Just was agreeing with what you stated. LOL
                                  >
                                  > In the Christ
                                  > Butros Abu Shanab
                                  > Chairman HOLYLANDERS


                                  TIM H:
                                  Oh, maybe I misunderstood you. If you mean that (1) God,
                                  (2) Jesus, and (3) the children of God are three, yet they
                                  are all one spiritually, then yes, I agree with that!

                                  In Christ,
                                  Tim H
                                • peters
                                  ... Petro: Scripture teaches that Jesus is literally Son of God, therefore god, and He is Literally Son of Adam, therefore adam. Yet he is neither for He is
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Feb 11, 2010
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                                    --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, "Tim H" <THardesty@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi Pedro, my comments below.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > Tim H wrote:
                                    > > Taking things literally that were written figuratively and
                                    > taking things figuratively that were written literally is a
                                    > very common mistake that leads to misinterpretation of the
                                    > Bible writers' intended meaning, and thus leads one into error.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Pedro:
                                    > > Now if I say that Jesus is the Son of God literally within
                                    > it is implied that He is God the Son figuratively. We
                                    > are children of God figuratively yet the Holy People literally
                                    > whose Patriarch is Abraham and Jesus, son of David, being The
                                    > Holy Christ, `Our King'.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > TIM H:
                                    > No, not at all. Saying Jesus is the son of God literally
                                    > agrees with what Scripture tells us. Saying that he is
                                    > God the Son figuratively is not what Scripture tells us.
                                    > Scripture says no such thing. The phrase "God the Son"
                                    > was invented by the same men who also invented the false
                                    > doctrine of the trinity, and those who have chosen to
                                    > believe in that doctrine even though it is not Biblical.
                                    > There is nothing in Scripture that implies that Jesus
                                    > was or is "God the Son."
                                    >

                                    Petro:
                                    Scripture teaches that Jesus is literally Son of God, therefore god, and He is Literally Son of Adam, therefore adam. Yet he is neither for He is The Three.

                                    >
                                    > > Pedro:
                                    > > Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no
                                    > means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham,
                                    > from the tribe of Benjamin.
                                    > >
                                    > > So Israelite is defined as a descendant of Abraham in a
                                    > figurative sense, while God's people in a literal sense.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Tim H:
                                    > > This does not define an Israelite as a descendent of Abraham.
                                    > Yes, Israelites are descendents of Abraham, but non-Israelites
                                    > are also descendents of Abraham. What makes Paul an Israelite
                                    > is not because he was descended from Abraham, but because he
                                    > was of the tribe of Benjamin.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Pedro:
                                    > > I am using the word Israelite in the way Jesus used it when
                                    > talking to Nathaneel.
                                    > > John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of
                                    > him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Abraham
                                    > fits this definition. Especially when scriptures call him the
                                    > companion of God?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > TIM H:
                                    > I see no logic in your explanation. Again, Abraham was not
                                    > an Israelite neither literally nor figuratively, so he does
                                    > not fit this "definition," and just because Jesus called
                                    > Nathanael an Israelite does not change this fact.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    Petro:
                                    I see your problem, you mean literally an Israelite, as a descendant of Jacob genetically?? Not one memeber of the tribe of El
                                    'in whom no guile', including those who are literally of Israel.

                                    Scripture teaches that Jesus is of the seed of Abraham. and as there is no English word, Abrahamite, Israelite is used instead I would assume?

                                    Romans 9 6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

                                    > > Pedro:
                                    > > I can accept that. Jesus is the Son of Man figuratively and
                                    > at the same time the Son of God literally.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Tim H:
                                    > > No, Jesus was literally the son of man and is literally the
                                    > son of God. They are both literally true. That's because the
                                    > phrase "son of man" simply means "a man." Is the risen Christ
                                    > still a man? I believe so since Paul refers to him as a man
                                    > long after his death and resurrection, but of course he is
                                    > much more than just a natural human being now, so even though
                                    > I believe he is still a man, he is also a supernatural being –
                                    > obviously we will have to wait until he returns to find out the
                                    > details.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Pedro:
                                    > > A supernatural eternal being is my understanding of God.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > TIM H:
                                    > Certainly God is an Eternal supernatural Being, but God
                                    > has always been God with no beginning and no end - and
                                    > God cannot die. On the other hand, even though Jesus now
                                    > lives forever because God raised him from the dead and gave
                                    > him immortality, he did have a beginning. Also, Jesus could
                                    > and did die before God raised him from the dead to immortality.
                                    >
                                    Petro:
                                    Jesus had a bigining, an end and rebirth, therefore eternal.
                                    Immortality is promised to all his children who are judged worthy by Jesus, the Christ.

                                    >
                                    > > Tim H:
                                    > > You certainly have the right to believe anything you want
                                    > to believe just as we all do, and you have the freedom to
                                    > make up anything you want to believe even when it's not in
                                    > Scripture - but I highly advise against it.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Pedro:
                                    > > You are accusing me of making up stuff if I say 'thru literal
                                    > birth'? John 3 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one
                                    > can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and
                                    > the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit
                                    > gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my
                                    > saying, 'You must be born again.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > TIM H:
                                    > I'm sorry, I do not understand what you are trying to say here.
                                    >
                                    Pedro:
                                    I was refering to two births. the physical and the spiritual

                                    >
                                    > > Tim H:
                                    > > Jesus never called Abraham his father. He only called God his Father. The above verse is Jesus speaking to the Pharisees where Jesus says, "your" father Abraham - NOT "my" father Abraham.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Pedro:
                                    > > God is His Father, No doubt about that. I am as well sure
                                    > that Abraham saw Jesus, as Jesus saw Abraham In Heaven as well.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Tim H:
                                    > > Again, you are making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Pedro:
                                    > > It is my belief that Jesus is with Abraham in Heaven, But
                                    > again Scripture does not say that, Even though I know it is
                                    > the literal Truth of the Scripture.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Tim H:
                                    > > If Scripture does not say it, then you cannot know that
                                    > it is the literal truth of Scripture. If Scripture does not
                                    > say it, then you are simply imagining it with your own
                                    > imagination - "making up stuff" just like I've said.
                                    > > According to Scripture Jesus is in heaven at the right
                                    > hand of God, but Abraham is not in heaven, just as King
                                    > David is not in heaven. They are dead and waiting for the
                                    > resurrection just like everyone else. Just read the
                                    > following passage:
                                    > >
                                    > > Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you
                                    > of the patriarch David [and Abraham, and everyone else] that
                                    > he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto
                                    > this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God
                                    > had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins,
                                    > according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on His
                                    > throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of
                                    > Christ, that his soul was not left in hell [the grave], neither
                                    > his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised
                                    > up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the
                                    > right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father
                                    > the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which
                                    > ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the
                                    > heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord [God] said unto my
                                    > Lord [Jesus Christ], Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I
                                    > make thy foes thy footstool.
                                    > >
                                    > > Abraham is not in heaven, just as King David is not in heaven.
                                    > Jesus Christ was raised from the dead by God as the FIRSTFRUITS.
                                    > Jesus was the FIRST to be raised from the dead by God and given
                                    > everlasting life. Everyone else is DEAD and awaiting the
                                    > resurrection of the DEAD. Just read 1 Corinthians chapter 15.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Pedro:
                                    > > Hebrews 2 14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too
                                    > shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy
                                    > him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free
                                    > those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of
                                    > death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's
                                    > descendants.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > TIM H:
                                    > So, what is your point for citing this Scripture?
                                    >
                                    Petro:
                                    Heaven is where Abraham descendants are?

                                    >
                                    > > Pedro:
                                    > > Yes Jesus is talking to the Pharisees who believed their
                                    > Father, genetically, is Abraham. Jesus believed Abraham was
                                    > his FAther in the spiritual sense, therefore when He saw the
                                    > day of the Lord Jesus He, Abraham was glad.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Tim H:
                                    > > You are still making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                    > There is nothing in Scripture that tells us Jesus believed
                                    > Abraham was his father in the spiritual sense. That is only
                                    > from your own imagination.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Butros:
                                    > > The Pharisees believed they were the Israelites.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > TIM H:
                                    > That's because the Pharisees were Israelites.

                                    Petro:
                                    Romans 9 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > Pedro:
                                    > > I know you do not believe that Jesus is God, however now I
                                    > understand that you believe He is the Son of God literally,
                                    > which I understand to mean that Jesus is the figure of God.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Tim H:
                                    > > Yes, I believe Jesus is the son of God literally, and I
                                    > believe that Jesus was the image of God since he perfectly
                                    > represented God's Heart, Mind, and Will to mankind, and as
                                    > God's appointed representative to mankind He spoke for God.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Butros:
                                    > > I believe in a literal Father who is God, in a literal Son
                                    > who is Jesus and in a literal Spirit who are his Holy people.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Tim H:
                                    > > I agree there is a literal Father who is God and a literal
                                    > son who is Jesus. I also believe that the literal Spirit of
                                    > God lives in all true believers in God and His son, the true
                                    > children of God who are His holy people.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Pedro:
                                    > > Amen, Literally they are Three, Figuratively they are One.
                                    > >
                                    > > Tim H:
                                    > > There you go again, making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                    > >
                                    > > Pedro:
                                    > > Just was agreeing with what you stated. LOL
                                    > >
                                    > > In the Christ
                                    > > Butros Abu Shanab
                                    > > Chairman HOLYLANDERS
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > TIM H:
                                    > Oh, maybe I misunderstood you. If you mean that (1) God,
                                    > (2) Jesus, and (3) the children of God are three, yet they
                                    > are all one spiritually, then yes, I agree with that!
                                    >
                                    > In Christ,
                                    > Tim H
                                    >

                                    Petro:
                                    AAmeen.
                                    Therefore my Christian belief in The Trinity of Persons, yet the Onenss of The Spirit.
                                  • Tim H
                                    Hi Pedro, my comments below. ... therefore god, and He is Literally Son of Adam, therefore adam. Yet he is neither for He is The Three. TIM H: This is the kind
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 12, 2010
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                                      Hi Pedro, my comments below.


                                      > > > Tim H wrote:
                                      > > > Taking things literally that were written figuratively and
                                      > > taking things figuratively that were written literally is a
                                      > > very common mistake that leads to misinterpretation of the
                                      > > Bible writers' intended meaning, and thus leads one into error.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Pedro:
                                      > > > Now if I say that Jesus is the Son of God literally within
                                      > > it is implied that He is God the Son figuratively. We
                                      > > are children of God figuratively yet the Holy People literally
                                      > > whose Patriarch is Abraham and Jesus, son of David, being The
                                      > > Holy Christ, `Our King'.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Tim H:
                                      > > No, not at all. Saying Jesus is the son of God literally
                                      > > agrees with what Scripture tells us. Saying that he is
                                      > > God the Son figuratively is not what Scripture tells us.
                                      > > Scripture says no such thing. The phrase "God the Son"
                                      > > was invented by the same men who also invented the false
                                      > > doctrine of the trinity, and those who have chosen to
                                      > > believe in that doctrine even though it is not Biblical.
                                      > > There is nothing in Scripture that implies that Jesus
                                      > > was or is "God the Son."
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Petro:
                                      > Scripture teaches that Jesus is literally Son of God,
                                      therefore god, and He is Literally Son of Adam, therefore
                                      adam. Yet he is neither for He is The Three.


                                      TIM H:
                                      This is the kind of stuff that is so frustrating about having
                                      a discussion with you. It seems you are content with just
                                      saying whatever you imagine to be the truth regardless of
                                      whether or not it agrees with Scripture - which this does not.


                                      > > > Pedro:
                                      > > > Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no
                                      > > means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham,
                                      > > from the tribe of Benjamin.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > So Israelite is defined as a descendant of Abraham in a
                                      > > figurative sense, while God's people in a literal sense.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Tim H:
                                      > > > This does not define an Israelite as a descendent of Abraham.
                                      > > Yes, Israelites are descendents of Abraham, but non-Israelites
                                      > > are also descendents of Abraham. What makes Paul an Israelite
                                      > > is not because he was descended from Abraham, but because he
                                      > > was of the tribe of Benjamin.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Pedro:
                                      > > > I am using the word Israelite in the way Jesus used it when
                                      > > talking to Nathaneel.
                                      > > > John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of
                                      > > him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Abraham
                                      > > fits this definition. Especially when scriptures call him the
                                      > > companion of God?
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Tim H:
                                      > > I see no logic in your explanation. Again, Abraham was not
                                      > > an Israelite neither literally nor figuratively, so he does
                                      > > not fit this "definition," and just because Jesus called
                                      > > Nathanael an Israelite does not change this fact.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Pedro:
                                      > I see your problem, you mean literally an Israelite, as a
                                      descendant of Jacob genetically?? Not one member of the
                                      tribe of El 'in whom no guile', including those who are
                                      literally of Israel.


                                      TIM H:
                                      Of course, Pedro, that's what it means to literally be an
                                      Israelite. It means genetically an Israelite. If we are
                                      not talking about actual blood descendents of Jacob then
                                      we are not talking about literal Israelites.


                                      > Pedro:
                                      > Scripture teaches that Jesus is of the seed of Abraham.
                                      and as there is no English word, Abrahamite, Israelite is
                                      used instead I would assume?


                                      TIM H:
                                      I don't understand what you are trying to say here.


                                      > Pedro:
                                      > Romans 9 6Not as though the word of God hath taken none
                                      effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
                                      7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they
                                      all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.


                                      TIM H:
                                      Posting Scripture without any explanation does not
                                      accomplish anything. I know what these verses mean to
                                      me, but you posted them, so what do they mean to you?


                                      > > > Pedro:
                                      > > > I can accept that. Jesus is the Son of Man figuratively
                                      > > > and at the same time the Son of God literally.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Tim H:
                                      > > > No, Jesus was literally the son of man and is literally the
                                      > > son of God. They are both literally true. That's because the
                                      > > phrase "son of man" simply means "a man." Is the risen Christ
                                      > > still a man? I believe so since Paul refers to him as a man
                                      > > long after his death and resurrection, but of course he is
                                      > > much more than just a natural human being now, so even though
                                      > > I believe he is still a man, he is also a supernatural being –
                                      > > obviously we will have to wait until he returns to find out the
                                      > > details.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Pedro:
                                      > > > A supernatural eternal being is my understanding of God.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Tim H:
                                      > > Certainly God is an Eternal supernatural Being, but God
                                      > > has always been God with no beginning and no end - and
                                      > > God cannot die. On the other hand, even though Jesus now
                                      > > lives forever because God raised him from the dead and gave
                                      > > him immortality, he did have a beginning. Also, Jesus could
                                      > > and did die before God raised him from the dead to immortality.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Petro:
                                      > Jesus had a bigining, an end and rebirth, therefore eternal.
                                      > Immortality is promised to all his children who are judged
                                      > worthy by Jesus, the Christ.


                                      TIM H:
                                      But Jesus was never eternal like God is Eternal, since God
                                      had no beginning, but Jesus did. Jesus is now eternal since
                                      God raised him from the dead to live forever.


                                      > > > Tim H:
                                      > > > You certainly have the right to believe anything you want
                                      > > to believe just as we all do, and you have the freedom to
                                      > > make up anything you want to believe even when it's not in
                                      > > Scripture - but I highly advise against it.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Pedro:
                                      > > > You are accusing me of making up stuff if I say 'thru
                                      > > literal birth'? John 3 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the
                                      > > truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is
                                      > > born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh,
                                      > > but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be
                                      > > surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Tim H:
                                      > > I'm sorry, I do not understand what you are trying to say here.
                                      >
                                      > Pedro:
                                      > I was refering to two births. the physical and the spiritual


                                      TIM H:
                                      Okay, but what point were you trying to make?


                                      > > > Tim H:
                                      > > > Jesus never called Abraham his father. He only called God
                                      his Father. The above verse is Jesus speaking to the Pharisees
                                      where Jesus says, "your" father Abraham - NOT "my" father Abraham.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Pedro:
                                      > > > God is His Father, No doubt about that. I am as well sure
                                      > > that Abraham saw Jesus, as Jesus saw Abraham In Heaven as well.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Tim H:
                                      > > > Again, you are making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Pedro:
                                      > > > It is my belief that Jesus is with Abraham in Heaven, But
                                      > > again Scripture does not say that, Even though I know it is
                                      > > the literal Truth of the Scripture.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Tim H:
                                      > > > If Scripture does not say it, then you cannot know that
                                      > > it is the literal truth of Scripture. If Scripture does not
                                      > > say it, then you are simply imagining it with your own
                                      > > imagination - "making up stuff" just like I've said.
                                      > > > According to Scripture Jesus is in heaven at the right
                                      > > hand of God, but Abraham is not in heaven, just as King
                                      > > David is not in heaven. They are dead and waiting for the
                                      > > resurrection just like everyone else. Just read the
                                      > > following passage:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you
                                      > > of the patriarch David [and Abraham, and everyone else] that
                                      > > he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto
                                      > > this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God
                                      > > had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins,
                                      > > according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on His
                                      > > throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of
                                      > > Christ, that his soul was not left in hell [the grave], neither
                                      > > his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised
                                      > > up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the
                                      > > right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father
                                      > > the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which
                                      > > ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the
                                      > > heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord [God] said unto my
                                      > > Lord [Jesus Christ], Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I
                                      > > make thy foes thy footstool.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Abraham is not in heaven, just as King David is not in heaven.
                                      > > Jesus Christ was raised from the dead by God as the FIRSTFRUITS.
                                      > > Jesus was the FIRST to be raised from the dead by God and given
                                      > > everlasting life. Everyone else is DEAD and awaiting the
                                      > > resurrection of the DEAD. Just read 1 Corinthians chapter 15.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Pedro:
                                      > > > Hebrews 2 14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too
                                      > > shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy
                                      > > him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free
                                      > > those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of
                                      > > death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's
                                      > > descendants.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > TIM H:
                                      > > So, what is your point for citing this Scripture?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Pedro:
                                      > Heaven is where Abraham descendants are?


                                      TIM H:
                                      If that was your point then you did not make it, because
                                      it is simply not the truth according to Scripture. The
                                      verses I cited above (Acts 2:29-35) and 1 Cor chapter 15
                                      make it abundantly clear that no one is in heaven except
                                      for God, Jesus Christ, and the heavenly host of angels.
                                      No man has ascended to heaven except for Jesus Christ.
                                      Everyone who has died is dead and awaiting resurrection.


                                      > > > Pedro:
                                      > > > Yes Jesus is talking to the Pharisees who believed their
                                      > > Father, genetically, is Abraham. Jesus believed Abraham was
                                      > > his FAther in the spiritual sense, therefore when He saw the
                                      > > day of the Lord Jesus He, Abraham was glad.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Tim H:
                                      > > > You are still making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                      > > There is nothing in Scripture that tells us Jesus believed
                                      > > Abraham was his father in the spiritual sense. That is only
                                      > > from your own imagination.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Butros:
                                      > > > The Pharisees believed they were the Israelites.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Tim H:
                                      > > That's because the Pharisees were Israelites.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Pedro:
                                      > Romans 9 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from
                                      Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
                                      4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and
                                      the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law,
                                      and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the
                                      fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
                                      who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


                                      TIM H:
                                      Again, Pedro, what is your point in citing this Scripture?
                                      It does no good to cite Scripture without any explanation.


                                      > > > Pedro:
                                      > > > I know you do not believe that Jesus is God, however now I
                                      > > understand that you believe He is the Son of God literally,
                                      > > which I understand to mean that Jesus is the figure of God.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Tim H:
                                      > > > Yes, I believe Jesus is the son of God literally, and I
                                      > > believe that Jesus was the image of God since he perfectly
                                      > > represented God's Heart, Mind, and Will to mankind, and as
                                      > > God's appointed representative to mankind He spoke for God.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Pedro:
                                      > > > I believe in a literal Father who is God, in a literal Son
                                      > > who is Jesus and in a literal Spirit who are his Holy people.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Tim H:
                                      > > > I agree there is a literal Father who is God and a literal
                                      > > son who is Jesus. I also believe that the literal Spirit of
                                      > > God lives in all true believers in God and His son, the true
                                      > > children of God who are His holy people.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Pedro:
                                      > > > Amen, Literally they are Three, Figuratively they are One.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Tim H:
                                      > > > There you go again, making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Pedro:
                                      > > > Just was agreeing with what you stated. LOL
                                      > > >
                                      > > > In the Christ
                                      > > > Butros Abu Shanab
                                      > > > Chairman HOLYLANDERS
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Tim H:
                                      > > Oh, maybe I misunderstood you. If you mean that (1) God,
                                      > > (2) Jesus, and (3) the children of God are three, yet they
                                      > > are all one spiritually, then yes, I agree with that!
                                      > >
                                      > > In Christ,
                                      > > Tim H
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > Petro:
                                      > AAmeen.
                                      > Therefore my Christian belief in The Trinity of Persons,
                                      > yet the Onenss of The Spirit.


                                      TIM H:
                                      One can say God is a "person" and Jesus is a "person" but the
                                      children of God are many persons - not just one person. So,
                                      this is really not a "trinity of persons" anyway. Also, it
                                      does nothing but cause confusion to refer to a "trinity" that
                                      has been fabricated by your own imagination which is different
                                      than the common doctrine of the trinity. Do you actually know
                                      anyone that believes this besides yourself?

                                      In Christ,
                                      Tim H
                                    • peters
                                      Tim, ... Petro; I believe it does. But it is not a salavation issue I would assume? ... Petro: The genes of Israel came of the genes of Abraham His
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Feb 13, 2010
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                                        Tim,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > > > Tim H wrote:
                                        > > > > Taking things literally that were written figuratively and
                                        > > > taking things figuratively that were written literally is a
                                        > > > very common mistake that leads to misinterpretation of the
                                        > > > Bible writers' intended meaning, and thus leads one into error.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Pedro:
                                        > > > > Now if I say that Jesus is the Son of God literally within
                                        > > > it is implied that He is God the Son figuratively. We
                                        > > > are children of God figuratively yet the Holy People literally
                                        > > > whose Patriarch is Abraham and Jesus, son of David, being The
                                        > > > Holy Christ, `Our King'.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Tim H:
                                        > > > No, not at all. Saying Jesus is the son of God literally
                                        > > > agrees with what Scripture tells us. Saying that he is
                                        > > > God the Son figuratively is not what Scripture tells us.
                                        > > > Scripture says no such thing. The phrase "God the Son"
                                        > > > was invented by the same men who also invented the false
                                        > > > doctrine of the trinity, and those who have chosen to
                                        > > > believe in that doctrine even though it is not Biblical.
                                        > > > There is nothing in Scripture that implies that Jesus
                                        > > > was or is "God the Son."
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Petro:
                                        > > Scripture teaches that Jesus is literally Son of God,
                                        > therefore god, and He is Literally Son of Adam, therefore
                                        > adam. Yet he is neither for He is The Three.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > TIM H:
                                        > This is the kind of stuff that is so frustrating about having
                                        > a discussion with you. It seems you are content with just
                                        > saying whatever you imagine to be the truth regardless of
                                        > whether or not it agrees with Scripture - which this does not.
                                        >
                                        >

                                        Petro;
                                        I believe it does. But it is not a salavation issue I would assume?

                                        > > > > Pedro:
                                        > > > > Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no
                                        > > > means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham,
                                        > > > from the tribe of Benjamin.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > So Israelite is defined as a descendant of Abraham in a
                                        > > > figurative sense, while God's people in a literal sense.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Tim H:
                                        > > > > This does not define an Israelite as a descendent of Abraham.
                                        > > > Yes, Israelites are descendents of Abraham, but non-Israelites
                                        > > > are also descendents of Abraham. What makes Paul an Israelite
                                        > > > is not because he was descended from Abraham, but because he
                                        > > > was of the tribe of Benjamin.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Pedro:
                                        > > > > I am using the word Israelite in the way Jesus used it when
                                        > > > talking to Nathaneel.
                                        > > > > John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of
                                        > > > him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Abraham
                                        > > > fits this definition. Especially when scriptures call him the
                                        > > > companion of God?
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Tim H:
                                        > > > I see no logic in your explanation. Again, Abraham was not
                                        > > > an Israelite neither literally nor figuratively, so he does
                                        > > > not fit this "definition," and just because Jesus called
                                        > > > Nathanael an Israelite does not change this fact.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Pedro:
                                        > > I see your problem, you mean literally an Israelite, as a
                                        > descendant of Jacob genetically?? Not one member of the
                                        > tribe of El 'in whom no guile', including those who are
                                        > literally of Israel.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > TIM H:
                                        > Of course, Pedro, that's what it means to literally be an
                                        > Israelite. It means genetically an Israelite. If we are
                                        > not talking about actual blood descendents of Jacob then
                                        > we are not talking about literal Israelites.

                                        Petro:
                                        The genes of Israel came of the genes of Abraham His Grandfather? whose Father genetically was God. Therefore God's people. Genes are information which is written in the Living stone. Man


                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > Pedro:
                                        > > Scripture teaches that Jesus is of the seed of Abraham.
                                        > and as there is no English word, Abrahamite, Israelite is
                                        > used instead I would assume?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > TIM H:
                                        > I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
                                        >

                                        Petro:
                                        A literal Israelite is a person who believes He is the literal child of God of the seed of Abraham, the Father of the idea of the One God, creator of Heavens icluding earth, the garden in the Heavens.

                                        >
                                        > > Pedro:
                                        > > Romans 9 6Not as though the word of God hath taken none
                                        > effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
                                        > 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they
                                        > all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > TIM H:
                                        > Posting Scripture without any explanation does not
                                        > accomplish anything. I know what these verses mean to
                                        > me, but you posted them, so what do they mean to you?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        Petro:
                                        I uderstand from these verses 'They are not all Israel,(figuratively) which are of Israel'(literally).
                                        And Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham,(literally) are they all children:(figurativly)'
                                        But in Isaac shall thy seed be called (figuratively)

                                        > > > > Pedro:
                                        > > > > I can accept that. Jesus is the Son of Man figuratively
                                        > > > > and at the same time the Son of God literally.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Tim H:
                                        > > > > No, Jesus was literally the son of man and is literally the
                                        > > > son of God. They are both literally true. That's because the
                                        > > > phrase "son of man" simply means "a man." Is the risen Christ
                                        > > > still a man? I believe so since Paul refers to him as a man
                                        > > > long after his death and resurrection, but of course he is
                                        > > > much more than just a natural human being now, so even though
                                        > > > I believe he is still a man, he is also a supernatural being –
                                        > > > obviously we will have to wait until he returns to find out the
                                        > > > details.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Pedro:
                                        > > > > A supernatural eternal being is my understanding of God.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Tim H:
                                        > > > Certainly God is an Eternal supernatural Being, but God
                                        > > > has always been God with no beginning and no end - and
                                        > > > God cannot die. On the other hand, even though Jesus now
                                        > > > lives forever because God raised him from the dead and gave
                                        > > > him immortality, he did have a beginning. Also, Jesus could
                                        > > > and did die before God raised him from the dead to immortality.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Petro:
                                        > > Jesus had a beginning, an end and rebirth, therefore eternal.
                                        > > Immortality is promised to all his children who are judged
                                        > > worthy by Jesus, the Christ.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > TIM H:
                                        > But Jesus was never eternal like God is Eternal, since God
                                        > had no beginning, but Jesus did. Jesus is now eternal since
                                        > God raised him from the dead to live forever.

                                        Petro:
                                        But this is what we believe that in Jesus we live eternal life.
                                        I am but a spirit of my Forefathers. The Spirit of the believers in God. Therefore eternal.

                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > > > Tim H:
                                        > > > > You certainly have the right to believe anything you want
                                        > > > to believe just as we all do, and you have the freedom to
                                        > > > make up anything you want to believe even when it's not in
                                        > > > Scripture - but I highly advise against it.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Pedro:
                                        > > > > You are accusing me of making up stuff if I say 'thru
                                        > > > literal birth'? John 3 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the
                                        > > > truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is
                                        > > > born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh,
                                        > > > but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be
                                        > > > surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Tim H:
                                        > > > I'm sorry, I do not understand what you are trying to say here.
                                        > >
                                        > > Pedro:
                                        > > I was refering to two births. the physical and the spiritual
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > TIM H:
                                        > Okay, but what point were you trying to make?
                                        >
                                        Petro:
                                        You claimed it is not mentioned in Scriptures. I just pointed it out.
                                      • Eric Alan Marx
                                        It was stated, But Jesus was never eternal like God is Eternal, since God had no beginning, but Jesus did. Jesus is now eternal since God raised him from the
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Feb 13, 2010
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                                          It was stated, "But Jesus was never eternal like God is Eternal, since God had no beginning, but Jesus did. Jesus is now eternal since
                                          God raised him from the dead to live forever."

                                          I sure hope someone does not believe what they just stated because it looks like someone is stating Jesus was created but the Bible states He is the Creator. Please read the beginning of John and other places in Scripture where it tells us that Jesus is the Creator and therefore was never created, because He is God.

                                          Isaiah 29:23
                                          Isaiah 40:28
                                          Isaiah 43:1
                                          Isaiah 43:15
                                          Isaiah 45:18
                                          Isaiah 54:5
                                          Mark 1:24
                                          John 1:1-3
                                          John 1:14
                                          John 5:36-47
                                          John 14:1-7
                                          Romans 1:25
                                          1 Corinthians 8:6
                                          1 Peter 4:19

                                          "For when he sees his children, the work of My hands, in his midst, they shall set apart My Name, and set apart the Set-apart One of [Yaaqob], and fear the Elohim of [Yisrael]. (Isaiah 29:23 The Scriptures 1998+)

                                          Did you not know? Have you not heard? The everlasting Elohim, [YHWH], the Creator of the ends of the earth, neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable. (Isaiah 40:28 The Scriptures 1998+)

                                          But now, thus said [YHWH], your Creator, O [Yaaqob], and He who formed you, O [Yisrael], "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you. I have called you by your name, you are Mine. (Isaiah 43:1 The Scriptures 1998+)

                                          "I am [YHWH], your Set-apart One, Creator of [Yisrael], your Sovereign." (Isaiah 43:15 The Scriptures 1998+)

                                          For thus said [YHWH], Creator of the heavens, He is Elohim, Former of earth and its Maker, He established it, He did not create it to be empty, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am [YHWH], and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:18 The Scriptures 1998+)

                                          "For your Maker is your husband, [YHWH] of hosts is His Name, and the Set-apart One of [Yisrael] is your Redeemer. He is called the Elohim of all the earth. (Isaiah 54:5 The Scriptures 1998+)

                                          saying, "Ha! What have we to do with You, [Yeshua] of Natsareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are: the Set-apart One of Elohim!" (Mark 1:24 The Scriptures 1998+)

                                          In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim. He was in the beginning with Elohim. All came to be through Him, and without Him not even one came to be that came to be. (John 1:1-3 The Scriptures 1998+)

                                          And the Word became flesh and pitched His tent among us, and we saw His esteem, esteem as of an only brought-forth of a father, complete in favour and truth. (John 1:14 The Scriptures 1998+)

                                          "But I have a greater witness than that of [Yohanan], for the works that the Father gave Me to accomplish, the works that I do, bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. "And the Father who sent Me, He bore witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. "And you do not have His Word staying in you, because you do not believe Him whom He sent. "You search the Scriptures, because you think you possess everlasting life in them. And these are the ones that bear witness of Me. "But you do not desire to come to Me in order to possess life. "I do not receive esteem from men, but I know you, that you do not have the love of Elohim in you. "I have come in My Father's Name and you do not receive Me, if another comes in his own name, him you would receive. "How are you able to believe, when you are receiving esteem from one another, and the esteem that is from the only Elohim you do not seek? "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Mosheh, in whom you have set your expectation. "For if you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, since he wrote about Me. "But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My words?" (John 5:36-47 The Scriptures 1998+)

                                          "Let not your heart be troubled. Believe in Elohim, believe also in Me. "In My Father's house are many staying places. And if not, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I shall come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, you might be too. "And where I go you know, and the way you know." T'oma said to Him, "Master, we do not know where You are going, and how are we able to know the way?" [Yeshua] said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father too. From now on you know Him, and have seen." (John 14:1-7 The Scriptures 1998+)

                                          who changed the truth of Elohim into the falsehood, and worshipped and served what was created rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. [Amen]. (Romans 1:25 The Scriptures 1998+)

                                          for us there is one Elohim, the Father, from whom all came and for whom we live, and one Master [Yeshua] Messiah, through whom all came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:6 The Scriptures 1998+)

                                          So then, those who suffer according to the desire of Elohim should commit their lives to a trustworthy Creator, in doing good. (1 Peter 4:19 The Scriptures 1998+)

                                          --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, "Tim H" <THardesty@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hi Pedro, my comments below.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > > > Tim H wrote:
                                          > > > > Taking things literally that were written figuratively and
                                          > > > taking things figuratively that were written literally is a
                                          > > > very common mistake that leads to misinterpretation of the
                                          > > > Bible writers' intended meaning, and thus leads one into error.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Pedro:
                                          > > > > Now if I say that Jesus is the Son of God literally within
                                          > > > it is implied that He is God the Son figuratively. We
                                          > > > are children of God figuratively yet the Holy People literally
                                          > > > whose Patriarch is Abraham and Jesus, son of David, being The
                                          > > > Holy Christ, `Our King'.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Tim H:
                                          > > > No, not at all. Saying Jesus is the son of God literally
                                          > > > agrees with what Scripture tells us. Saying that he is
                                          > > > God the Son figuratively is not what Scripture tells us.
                                          > > > Scripture says no such thing. The phrase "God the Son"
                                          > > > was invented by the same men who also invented the false
                                          > > > doctrine of the trinity, and those who have chosen to
                                          > > > believe in that doctrine even though it is not Biblical.
                                          > > > There is nothing in Scripture that implies that Jesus
                                          > > > was or is "God the Son."
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Petro:
                                          > > Scripture teaches that Jesus is literally Son of God,
                                          > therefore god, and He is Literally Son of Adam, therefore
                                          > adam. Yet he is neither for He is The Three.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > TIM H:
                                          > This is the kind of stuff that is so frustrating about having
                                          > a discussion with you. It seems you are content with just
                                          > saying whatever you imagine to be the truth regardless of
                                          > whether or not it agrees with Scripture - which this does not.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > > > Pedro:
                                          > > > > Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no
                                          > > > means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham,
                                          > > > from the tribe of Benjamin.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > So Israelite is defined as a descendant of Abraham in a
                                          > > > figurative sense, while God's people in a literal sense.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Tim H:
                                          > > > > This does not define an Israelite as a descendent of Abraham.
                                          > > > Yes, Israelites are descendents of Abraham, but non-Israelites
                                          > > > are also descendents of Abraham. What makes Paul an Israelite
                                          > > > is not because he was descended from Abraham, but because he
                                          > > > was of the tribe of Benjamin.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Pedro:
                                          > > > > I am using the word Israelite in the way Jesus used it when
                                          > > > talking to Nathaneel.
                                          > > > > John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of
                                          > > > him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Abraham
                                          > > > fits this definition. Especially when scriptures call him the
                                          > > > companion of God?
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Tim H:
                                          > > > I see no logic in your explanation. Again, Abraham was not
                                          > > > an Israelite neither literally nor figuratively, so he does
                                          > > > not fit this "definition," and just because Jesus called
                                          > > > Nathanael an Israelite does not change this fact.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Pedro:
                                          > > I see your problem, you mean literally an Israelite, as a
                                          > descendant of Jacob genetically?? Not one member of the
                                          > tribe of El 'in whom no guile', including those who are
                                          > literally of Israel.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > TIM H:
                                          > Of course, Pedro, that's what it means to literally be an
                                          > Israelite. It means genetically an Israelite. If we are
                                          > not talking about actual blood descendents of Jacob then
                                          > we are not talking about literal Israelites.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > Pedro:
                                          > > Scripture teaches that Jesus is of the seed of Abraham.
                                          > and as there is no English word, Abrahamite, Israelite is
                                          > used instead I would assume?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > TIM H:
                                          > I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > Pedro:
                                          > > Romans 9 6Not as though the word of God hath taken none
                                          > effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
                                          > 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they
                                          > all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > TIM H:
                                          > Posting Scripture without any explanation does not
                                          > accomplish anything. I know what these verses mean to
                                          > me, but you posted them, so what do they mean to you?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > > > Pedro:
                                          > > > > I can accept that. Jesus is the Son of Man figuratively
                                          > > > > and at the same time the Son of God literally.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Tim H:
                                          > > > > No, Jesus was literally the son of man and is literally the
                                          > > > son of God. They are both literally true. That's because the
                                          > > > phrase "son of man" simply means "a man." Is the risen Christ
                                          > > > still a man? I believe so since Paul refers to him as a man
                                          > > > long after his death and resurrection, but of course he is
                                          > > > much more than just a natural human being now, so even though
                                          > > > I believe he is still a man, he is also a supernatural being –
                                          > > > obviously we will have to wait until he returns to find out the
                                          > > > details.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Pedro:
                                          > > > > A supernatural eternal being is my understanding of God.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Tim H:
                                          > > > Certainly God is an Eternal supernatural Being, but God
                                          > > > has always been God with no beginning and no end - and
                                          > > > God cannot die. On the other hand, even though Jesus now
                                          > > > lives forever because God raised him from the dead and gave
                                          > > > him immortality, he did have a beginning. Also, Jesus could
                                          > > > and did die before God raised him from the dead to immortality.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Petro:
                                          > > Jesus had a bigining, an end and rebirth, therefore eternal.
                                          > > Immortality is promised to all his children who are judged
                                          > > worthy by Jesus, the Christ.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > TIM H:
                                          > But Jesus was never eternal like God is Eternal, since God
                                          > had no beginning, but Jesus did. Jesus is now eternal since
                                          > God raised him from the dead to live forever.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > > > Tim H:
                                          > > > > You certainly have the right to believe anything you want
                                          > > > to believe just as we all do, and you have the freedom to
                                          > > > make up anything you want to believe even when it's not in
                                          > > > Scripture - but I highly advise against it.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Pedro:
                                          > > > > You are accusing me of making up stuff if I say 'thru
                                          > > > literal birth'? John 3 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the
                                          > > > truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is
                                          > > > born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh,
                                          > > > but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be
                                          > > > surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Tim H:
                                          > > > I'm sorry, I do not understand what you are trying to say here.
                                          > >
                                          > > Pedro:
                                          > > I was refering to two births. the physical and the spiritual
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > TIM H:
                                          > Okay, but what point were you trying to make?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > > > Tim H:
                                          > > > > Jesus never called Abraham his father. He only called God
                                          > his Father. The above verse is Jesus speaking to the Pharisees
                                          > where Jesus says, "your" father Abraham - NOT "my" father Abraham.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Pedro:
                                          > > > > God is His Father, No doubt about that. I am as well sure
                                          > > > that Abraham saw Jesus, as Jesus saw Abraham In Heaven as well.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Tim H:
                                          > > > > Again, you are making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Pedro:
                                          > > > > It is my belief that Jesus is with Abraham in Heaven, But
                                          > > > again Scripture does not say that, Even though I know it is
                                          > > > the literal Truth of the Scripture.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Tim H:
                                          > > > > If Scripture does not say it, then you cannot know that
                                          > > > it is the literal truth of Scripture. If Scripture does not
                                          > > > say it, then you are simply imagining it with your own
                                          > > > imagination - "making up stuff" just like I've said.
                                          > > > > According to Scripture Jesus is in heaven at the right
                                          > > > hand of God, but Abraham is not in heaven, just as King
                                          > > > David is not in heaven. They are dead and waiting for the
                                          > > > resurrection just like everyone else. Just read the
                                          > > > following passage:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you
                                          > > > of the patriarch David [and Abraham, and everyone else] that
                                          > > > he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto
                                          > > > this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God
                                          > > > had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins,
                                          > > > according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on His
                                          > > > throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of
                                          > > > Christ, that his soul was not left in hell [the grave], neither
                                          > > > his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised
                                          > > > up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the
                                          > > > right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father
                                          > > > the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which
                                          > > > ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the
                                          > > > heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord [God] said unto my
                                          > > > Lord [Jesus Christ], Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I
                                          > > > make thy foes thy footstool.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Abraham is not in heaven, just as King David is not in heaven.
                                          > > > Jesus Christ was raised from the dead by God as the FIRSTFRUITS.
                                          > > > Jesus was the FIRST to be raised from the dead by God and given
                                          > > > everlasting life. Everyone else is DEAD and awaiting the
                                          > > > resurrection of the DEAD. Just read 1 Corinthians chapter 15.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Pedro:
                                          > > > > Hebrews 2 14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too
                                          > > > shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy
                                          > > > him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free
                                          > > > those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of
                                          > > > death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's
                                          > > > descendants.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > TIM H:
                                          > > > So, what is your point for citing this Scripture?
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Pedro:
                                          > > Heaven is where Abraham descendants are?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > TIM H:
                                          > If that was your point then you did not make it, because
                                          > it is simply not the truth according to Scripture. The
                                          > verses I cited above (Acts 2:29-35) and 1 Cor chapter 15
                                          > make it abundantly clear that no one is in heaven except
                                          > for God, Jesus Christ, and the heavenly host of angels.
                                          > No man has ascended to heaven except for Jesus Christ.
                                          > Everyone who has died is dead and awaiting resurrection.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > > > Pedro:
                                          > > > > Yes Jesus is talking to the Pharisees who believed their
                                          > > > Father, genetically, is Abraham. Jesus believed Abraham was
                                          > > > his FAther in the spiritual sense, therefore when He saw the
                                          > > > day of the Lord Jesus He, Abraham was glad.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Tim H:
                                          > > > > You are still making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                          > > > There is nothing in Scripture that tells us Jesus believed
                                          > > > Abraham was his father in the spiritual sense. That is only
                                          > > > from your own imagination.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Butros:
                                          > > > > The Pharisees believed they were the Israelites.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Tim H:
                                          > > > That's because the Pharisees were Israelites.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Pedro:
                                          > > Romans 9 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from
                                          > Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
                                          > 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and
                                          > the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law,
                                          > and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the
                                          > fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
                                          > who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > TIM H:
                                          > Again, Pedro, what is your point in citing this Scripture?
                                          > It does no good to cite Scripture without any explanation.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > > > Pedro:
                                          > > > > I know you do not believe that Jesus is God, however now I
                                          > > > understand that you believe He is the Son of God literally,
                                          > > > which I understand to mean that Jesus is the figure of God.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Tim H:
                                          > > > > Yes, I believe Jesus is the son of God literally, and I
                                          > > > believe that Jesus was the image of God since he perfectly
                                          > > > represented God's Heart, Mind, and Will to mankind, and as
                                          > > > God's appointed representative to mankind He spoke for God.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Pedro:
                                          > > > > I believe in a literal Father who is God, in a literal Son
                                          > > > who is Jesus and in a literal Spirit who are his Holy people.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Tim H:
                                          > > > > I agree there is a literal Father who is God and a literal
                                          > > > son who is Jesus. I also believe that the literal Spirit of
                                          > > > God lives in all true believers in God and His son, the true
                                          > > > children of God who are His holy people.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Pedro:
                                          > > > > Amen, Literally they are Three, Figuratively they are One.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Tim H:
                                          > > > > There you go again, making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Pedro:
                                          > > > > Just was agreeing with what you stated. LOL
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > In the Christ
                                          > > > > Butros Abu Shanab
                                          > > > > Chairman HOLYLANDERS
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Tim H:
                                          > > > Oh, maybe I misunderstood you. If you mean that (1) God,
                                          > > > (2) Jesus, and (3) the children of God are three, yet they
                                          > > > are all one spiritually, then yes, I agree with that!
                                          > > >
                                          > > > In Christ,
                                          > > > Tim H
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Petro:
                                          > > AAmeen.
                                          > > Therefore my Christian belief in The Trinity of Persons,
                                          > > yet the Onenss of The Spirit.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > TIM H:
                                          > One can say God is a "person" and Jesus is a "person" but the
                                          > children of God are many persons - not just one person. So,
                                          > this is really not a "trinity of persons" anyway. Also, it
                                          > does nothing but cause confusion to refer to a "trinity" that
                                          > has been fabricated by your own imagination which is different
                                          > than the common doctrine of the trinity. Do you actually know
                                          > anyone that believes this besides yourself?
                                          >
                                          > In Christ,
                                          > Tim H
                                          >
                                        • Tim H
                                          Hi Pedro, my comments below. ... TIM H: That is supposed to be one of the benefits of discussion groups such as this one. It s a place where we can discuss
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Feb 13, 2010
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hi Pedro, my comments below.


                                            > > > > > Tim H wrote:
                                            > > > > > Taking things literally that were written figuratively and
                                            > > > > taking things figuratively that were written literally is a
                                            > > > > very common mistake that leads to misinterpretation of the
                                            > > > > Bible writers' intended meaning, and thus leads one into
                                            > > > > error.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Pedro:
                                            > > > > > Now if I say that Jesus is the Son of God literally within
                                            > > > > it is implied that He is God the Son figuratively. We
                                            > > > > are children of God figuratively yet the Holy People literally
                                            > > > > whose Patriarch is Abraham and Jesus, son of David, being The
                                            > > > > Holy Christ, `Our King'.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Tim H:
                                            > > > > No, not at all. Saying Jesus is the son of God literally
                                            > > > > agrees with what Scripture tells us. Saying that he is
                                            > > > > God the Son figuratively is not what Scripture tells us.
                                            > > > > Scripture says no such thing. The phrase "God the Son"
                                            > > > > was invented by the same men who also invented the false
                                            > > > > doctrine of the trinity, and those who have chosen to
                                            > > > > believe in that doctrine even though it is not Biblical.
                                            > > > > There is nothing in Scripture that implies that Jesus
                                            > > > > was or is "God the Son."
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Pedro:
                                            > > > Scripture teaches that Jesus is literally Son of God,
                                            > > therefore god, and He is Literally Son of Adam, therefore
                                            > > adam. Yet he is neither for He is The Three.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Tim H:
                                            > > This is the kind of stuff that is so frustrating about having
                                            > > a discussion with you. It seems you are content with just
                                            > > saying whatever you imagine to be the truth regardless of
                                            > > whether or not it agrees with Scripture - which this does not.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Pedro:
                                            > I believe it does. But it is not a salvation issue
                                            > I would assume?


                                            TIM H:
                                            That is supposed to be one of the benefits of discussion
                                            groups such as this one. It's a place where we can discuss
                                            God's truth according to Scripture, and if we disagree we
                                            can cite Scripture to support our beliefs and discuss our
                                            differences. Then, hopefully, someone will be edified by
                                            reading the posts.

                                            Nowhere does Scripture tell us that Jesus "is The Three"
                                            as you claim. That comes only from your own imagination
                                            or from the false teaching of men, because it is not
                                            according to what Scripture says. If you believe that
                                            it is according to Scripture then you should cite the
                                            particular Scripture that you believe supports your
                                            belief and provide an explanation. Otherwise, it's
                                            pretty much a waste of time.

                                            Is this a salvation issue you ask? Well, I certainly do
                                            hope that it's not, since thousands of professing Christians
                                            who believe in the trinity would be lost. So, for their
                                            sake I sincerely hope it is not a salvation issue.

                                            On the other hand, when we read John 17:3 it does seem to
                                            indicate that it could very well be a salvation issue.

                                            John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee
                                            the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.

                                            Notice Jesus says, "This is life eternal." Salvation is
                                            exactly that: life eternal. So, what does he say "life
                                            eternal" is exactly? He says that it is knowing God,
                                            his Father as the only true God - the one who sent him
                                            to save mankind - and knowing him, Jesus Christ, the one
                                            who was sent by the only true God, his Father, to save
                                            mankind. There is nothing here that says "life eternal"
                                            is believing in a holy trinity. There is nothing here
                                            that says anything about believing Jesus was God - quite
                                            the contrary. So, no, I don't know for certain if it's a
                                            salvation issue or not, but I hope it's not for the
                                            sake of those who have fallen prey to the false teaching
                                            of men, although it looks as though it could be.


                                            > > > > > Pedro:
                                            > > > > > Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no
                                            > > > > means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham,
                                            > > > > from the tribe of Benjamin.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > So Israelite is defined as a descendant of Abraham in a
                                            > > > > figurative sense, while God's people in a literal sense.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Tim H:
                                            > > > > > This does not define an Israelite as a descendent of
                                            > > > > > Abraham. Yes, Israelites are descendents of Abraham,
                                            > > > > > but non-Israelites are also descendents of Abraham.
                                            > > > > > What makes Paul an Israelite is not because he was
                                            > > > > > descended from Abraham, but because he was of the
                                            > > > > > tribe of Benjamin.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Pedro:
                                            > > > > > I am using the word Israelite in the way Jesus used it when
                                            > > > > talking to Nathaneel.
                                            > > > > > John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of
                                            > > > > him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Abraham
                                            > > > > fits this definition. Especially when scriptures call him the
                                            > > > > companion of God?
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Tim H:
                                            > > > > I see no logic in your explanation. Again, Abraham was not
                                            > > > > an Israelite neither literally nor figuratively, so he does
                                            > > > > not fit this "definition," and just because Jesus called
                                            > > > > Nathanael an Israelite does not change this fact.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Pedro:
                                            > > > I see your problem, you mean literally an Israelite, as a
                                            > > descendant of Jacob genetically?? Not one member of the
                                            > > tribe of El 'in whom no guile', including those who are
                                            > > literally of Israel.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Tim H:
                                            > > Of course, Pedro, that's what it means to literally be an
                                            > > Israelite. It means genetically an Israelite. If we are
                                            > > not talking about actual blood descendents of Jacob then
                                            > > we are not talking about literal Israelites.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Pedro:
                                            > The genes of Israel came of the genes of Abraham His
                                            Grandfather? whose Father genetically was God. Therefore
                                            God's people. Genes are information which is written in
                                            the Living stone. Man


                                            TIM H:
                                            Again, if we are not talking about actual blood descendents
                                            of Jacob then we are not talking about LITERAL Israelites.
                                            As I have previously stated, God is the Creator of mankind,
                                            so figuratively speaking He is the Father of us all. Only
                                            in that way can we correctly think of God as being the
                                            Father of Abraham - in just the same way that God is the
                                            Father of us all - because He is the Creator - but God is
                                            NOT LITERALLY the Father of us all or of Abraham. God
                                            IS LITERALLY the Father of Jesus Christ, but no one else.


                                            > > > Pedro:
                                            > > > Scripture teaches that Jesus is of the seed of Abraham.
                                            > > and as there is no English word, Abrahamite, Israelite is
                                            > > used instead I would assume?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Tim H:
                                            > > I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Pedro:
                                            > A literal Israelite is a person who believes He is the literal
                                            child of God of the seed of Abraham, the Father of the idea of
                                            the One God, creator of Heavens including earth, the garden in
                                            the Heavens.


                                            TIM H:
                                            No, just believing something does not make it a literal
                                            truth. A literal Israelite is a blood descendent of Jacob.
                                            Otherwise, it's figurative and not literal.


                                            > > > Pedro:
                                            > > > Romans 9 6Not as though the word of God hath taken
                                            > > none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
                                            > > 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they
                                            > > all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Tim H:
                                            > > Posting Scripture without any explanation does not
                                            > > accomplish anything. I know what these verses mean to
                                            > > me, but you posted them, so what do they mean to you?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > Petro:
                                            > I understand from these verses 'They are not all Israel,(figuratively)
                                            which are of Israel'(literally). And Neither, because they are the seed
                                            of Abraham,(literally) are they all children:(figuratively)' But in Isaac
                                            shall thy seed be called (figuratively).


                                            TIM H:
                                            I agree! I still don't know what your point is, though.


                                            > > > > > Pedro:
                                            > > > > > I can accept that. Jesus is the Son of Man figuratively
                                            > > > > > and at the same time the Son of God literally.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Tim H:
                                            > > > > > No, Jesus was literally the son of man and is literally the
                                            > > > > son of God. They are both literally true. That's because the
                                            > > > > phrase "son of man" simply means "a man." Is the risen Christ
                                            > > > > still a man? I believe so since Paul refers to him as a man
                                            > > > > long after his death and resurrection, but of course he is
                                            > > > > much more than just a natural human being now, so even though
                                            > > > > I believe he is still a man, he is also a supernatural being –
                                            > > > > obviously we will have to wait until he returns to find out the
                                            > > > > details.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Pedro:
                                            > > > > > A supernatural eternal being is my understanding of God.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Tim H:
                                            > > > > Certainly God is an Eternal supernatural Being, but God
                                            > > > > has always been God with no beginning and no end - and
                                            > > > > God cannot die. On the other hand, even though Jesus now
                                            > > > > lives forever because God raised him from the dead and gave
                                            > > > > him immortality, he did have a beginning. Also, Jesus
                                            > > > > could and did die before God raised him from the dead
                                            > > > > to immortality.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Pedro:
                                            > > > Jesus had a beginning, an end and rebirth, therefore eternal.
                                            > > > Immortality is promised to all his children who are judged
                                            > > > worthy by Jesus, the Christ.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Tim H:
                                            > > But Jesus was never eternal like God is Eternal, since God
                                            > > had no beginning, but Jesus did. Jesus is now eternal since
                                            > > God raised him from the dead to live forever.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Pedro:
                                            > But this is what we believe that in Jesus we live eternal life.
                                            > I am but a spirit of my Forefathers. The Spirit of the believers
                                            > in God. Therefore eternal.


                                            TIM H:
                                            If you are speaking figuratively and not literally, then I agree.
                                            Literally, we do not have an eternal spirit. We are not immortal
                                            beings. We will become immortal beings when we are raised
                                            from the dead and given immortality. This is how we know that
                                            in Jesus we have eternal life – because we know that our Lord
                                            Jesus will return and we shall be saved and made immortal.
                                            Right now, however, we are mortal beings that die.


                                            > > > > > Tim H:
                                            > > > > > You certainly have the right to believe anything you want
                                            > > > > to believe just as we all do, and you have the freedom to
                                            > > > > make up anything you want to believe even when it's not in
                                            > > > > Scripture - but I highly advise against it.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Pedro:
                                            > > > > > You are accusing me of making up stuff if I say 'thru
                                            > > > > literal birth'? John 3 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the
                                            > > > > truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is
                                            > > > > born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh,
                                            > > > > but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be
                                            > > > > surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Tim H:
                                            > > > > I'm sorry, I do not understand what you are trying to
                                            > > > > say here.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Pedro:
                                            > > > I was referring to two births. the physical and the spiritual
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Tim H:
                                            > > Okay, but what point were you trying to make?
                                            > >
                                            > Petro:
                                            > You claimed it is not mentioned in Scriptures. I just pointed
                                            > it out.


                                            TIM H:
                                            I never claimed that it was not mentioned in Scripture.
                                            I was disagreeing with what you said about it. You said:

                                            "Again, I do accept that Jesus' being of the seed of Abraham
                                            is figurative and not literal - and that Christians are
                                            figuratively of the seed of Abraham through faith and also
                                            thru birth literally."

                                            First of all, you need to clearly explain what you mean by
                                            saying, "and also thru birth literally." Surely, you cannot
                                            be saying that anyone – including any Israelite or Jew – is a
                                            Christian because of literal, physical birth. I'm not going
                                            to get into a detailed discussion of the meaning of those
                                            verses you posted. There is a lot of disagreement among
                                            Bible scholars because of its ambiguity. Nevertheless, it
                                            was never a matter of my claiming it was not in Scripture.
                                            It was a matter of my disagreeing with your interpretation
                                            of what is in Scripture. Literal birth does not make anyone
                                            a Christian. Being a Christian is a matter of belief and faith
                                            in Christ which leads to a spiritual rebirth. It has nothing
                                            to do with a literal, physical birth.

                                            I think that the phrase "born of water" is probably referring
                                            to water baptism – not a reference to physical, human birth,
                                            so Jesus is affirming water baptism but is also pointing out
                                            the necessity of being born of the Spirit, i.e., receiving
                                            the gift of the Holy Spirit which seals us unto the day
                                            of Redemption.

                                            In Christ,
                                            Tim H
                                          • Tim H
                                            Hi Eric, By the same token, I hope no one believes the false teaching that Jesus is the Creator and is God, but sadly, I know there are many who believe it
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Feb 14, 2010
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                                              Hi Eric,

                                              By the same token, I hope no one believes the false
                                              teaching that Jesus is the Creator and is God, but
                                              sadly, I know there are many who believe it such as
                                              yourself and even teach it.

                                              In Christ,
                                              Tim H


                                              > Eric Alan Marx wrote:
                                              > It was stated, "But Jesus was never eternal like God is Eternal, since God had no beginning, but Jesus did. Jesus is now eternal since
                                              > God raised him from the dead to live forever."
                                              >
                                              > I sure hope someone does not believe what they just stated because it looks like someone is stating Jesus was created but the Bible states He is the Creator. Please read the beginning of John and other places in Scripture where it tells us that Jesus is the Creator and therefore was never created, because He is God.
                                              >
                                              > Isaiah 29:23
                                              > Isaiah 40:28
                                              > Isaiah 43:1
                                              > Isaiah 43:15
                                              > Isaiah 45:18
                                              > Isaiah 54:5
                                              > Mark 1:24
                                              > John 1:1-3
                                              > John 1:14
                                              > John 5:36-47
                                              > John 14:1-7
                                              > Romans 1:25
                                              > 1 Corinthians 8:6
                                              > 1 Peter 4:19
                                              >
                                              > "For when he sees his children, the work of My hands, in his midst, they shall set apart My Name, and set apart the Set-apart One of [Yaaqob], and fear the Elohim of [Yisrael]. (Isaiah 29:23 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                              >
                                              > Did you not know? Have you not heard? The everlasting Elohim, [YHWH], the Creator of the ends of the earth, neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable. (Isaiah 40:28 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                              >
                                              > But now, thus said [YHWH], your Creator, O [Yaaqob], and He who formed you, O [Yisrael], "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you. I have called you by your name, you are Mine. (Isaiah 43:1 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                              >
                                              > "I am [YHWH], your Set-apart One, Creator of [Yisrael], your Sovereign." (Isaiah 43:15 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                              >
                                              > For thus said [YHWH], Creator of the heavens, He is Elohim, Former of earth and its Maker, He established it, He did not create it to be empty, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am [YHWH], and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:18 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                              >
                                              > "For your Maker is your husband, [YHWH] of hosts is His Name, and the Set-apart One of [Yisrael] is your Redeemer. He is called the Elohim of all the earth. (Isaiah 54:5 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                              >
                                              > saying, "Ha! What have we to do with You, [Yeshua] of Natsareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are: the Set-apart One of Elohim!" (Mark 1:24 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                              >
                                              > In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim. He was in the beginning with Elohim. All came to be through Him, and without Him not even one came to be that came to be. (John 1:1-3 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                              >
                                              > And the Word became flesh and pitched His tent among us, and we saw His esteem, esteem as of an only brought-forth of a father, complete in favour and truth. (John 1:14 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                              >
                                              > "But I have a greater witness than that of [Yohanan], for the works that the Father gave Me to accomplish, the works that I do, bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. "And the Father who sent Me, He bore witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. "And you do not have His Word staying in you, because you do not believe Him whom He sent. "You search the Scriptures, because you think you possess everlasting life in them. And these are the ones that bear witness of Me. "But you do not desire to come to Me in order to possess life. "I do not receive esteem from men, but I know you, that you do not have the love of Elohim in you. "I have come in My Father's Name and you do not receive Me, if another comes in his own name, him you would receive. "How are you able to believe, when you are receiving esteem from one another, and the esteem that is from the only Elohim you do not seek? "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Mosheh, in whom you have set your expectation. "For if you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, since he wrote about Me. "But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My words?" (John 5:36-47 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                              >
                                              > "Let not your heart be troubled. Believe in Elohim, believe also in Me. "In My Father's house are many staying places. And if not, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I shall come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, you might be too. "And where I go you know, and the way you know." T'oma said to Him, "Master, we do not know where You are going, and how are we able to know the way?" [Yeshua] said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father too. From now on you know Him, and have seen." (John 14:1-7 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                              >
                                              > who changed the truth of Elohim into the falsehood, and worshipped and served what was created rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. [Amen]. (Romans 1:25 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                              >
                                              > for us there is one Elohim, the Father, from whom all came and for whom we live, and one Master [Yeshua] Messiah, through whom all came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:6 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                              >
                                              > So then, those who suffer according to the desire of Elohim should commit their lives to a trustworthy Creator, in doing good. (1 Peter 4:19 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                              >
                                              > --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, "Tim H" <THardesty@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Hi Pedro, my comments below.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > > > > Tim H wrote:
                                              > > > > > Taking things literally that were written figuratively and
                                              > > > > taking things figuratively that were written literally is a
                                              > > > > very common mistake that leads to misinterpretation of the
                                              > > > > Bible writers' intended meaning, and thus leads one into error.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > > > Now if I say that Jesus is the Son of God literally within
                                              > > > > it is implied that He is God the Son figuratively. We
                                              > > > > are children of God figuratively yet the Holy People literally
                                              > > > > whose Patriarch is Abraham and Jesus, son of David, being The
                                              > > > > Holy Christ, `Our King'.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Tim H:
                                              > > > > No, not at all. Saying Jesus is the son of God literally
                                              > > > > agrees with what Scripture tells us. Saying that he is
                                              > > > > God the Son figuratively is not what Scripture tells us.
                                              > > > > Scripture says no such thing. The phrase "God the Son"
                                              > > > > was invented by the same men who also invented the false
                                              > > > > doctrine of the trinity, and those who have chosen to
                                              > > > > believe in that doctrine even though it is not Biblical.
                                              > > > > There is nothing in Scripture that implies that Jesus
                                              > > > > was or is "God the Son."
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Petro:
                                              > > > Scripture teaches that Jesus is literally Son of God,
                                              > > therefore god, and He is Literally Son of Adam, therefore
                                              > > adam. Yet he is neither for He is The Three.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > TIM H:
                                              > > This is the kind of stuff that is so frustrating about having
                                              > > a discussion with you. It seems you are content with just
                                              > > saying whatever you imagine to be the truth regardless of
                                              > > whether or not it agrees with Scripture - which this does not.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > > > Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no
                                              > > > > means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham,
                                              > > > > from the tribe of Benjamin.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > So Israelite is defined as a descendant of Abraham in a
                                              > > > > figurative sense, while God's people in a literal sense.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Tim H:
                                              > > > > > This does not define an Israelite as a descendent of Abraham.
                                              > > > > Yes, Israelites are descendents of Abraham, but non-Israelites
                                              > > > > are also descendents of Abraham. What makes Paul an Israelite
                                              > > > > is not because he was descended from Abraham, but because he
                                              > > > > was of the tribe of Benjamin.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > > > I am using the word Israelite in the way Jesus used it when
                                              > > > > talking to Nathaneel.
                                              > > > > > John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of
                                              > > > > him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Abraham
                                              > > > > fits this definition. Especially when scriptures call him the
                                              > > > > companion of God?
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Tim H:
                                              > > > > I see no logic in your explanation. Again, Abraham was not
                                              > > > > an Israelite neither literally nor figuratively, so he does
                                              > > > > not fit this "definition," and just because Jesus called
                                              > > > > Nathanael an Israelite does not change this fact.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > I see your problem, you mean literally an Israelite, as a
                                              > > descendant of Jacob genetically?? Not one member of the
                                              > > tribe of El 'in whom no guile', including those who are
                                              > > literally of Israel.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > TIM H:
                                              > > Of course, Pedro, that's what it means to literally be an
                                              > > Israelite. It means genetically an Israelite. If we are
                                              > > not talking about actual blood descendents of Jacob then
                                              > > we are not talking about literal Israelites.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > Scripture teaches that Jesus is of the seed of Abraham.
                                              > > and as there is no English word, Abrahamite, Israelite is
                                              > > used instead I would assume?
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > TIM H:
                                              > > I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > Romans 9 6Not as though the word of God hath taken none
                                              > > effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
                                              > > 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they
                                              > > all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > TIM H:
                                              > > Posting Scripture without any explanation does not
                                              > > accomplish anything. I know what these verses mean to
                                              > > me, but you posted them, so what do they mean to you?
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > > > I can accept that. Jesus is the Son of Man figuratively
                                              > > > > > and at the same time the Son of God literally.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Tim H:
                                              > > > > > No, Jesus was literally the son of man and is literally the
                                              > > > > son of God. They are both literally true. That's because the
                                              > > > > phrase "son of man" simply means "a man." Is the risen Christ
                                              > > > > still a man? I believe so since Paul refers to him as a man
                                              > > > > long after his death and resurrection, but of course he is
                                              > > > > much more than just a natural human being now, so even though
                                              > > > > I believe he is still a man, he is also a supernatural being –
                                              > > > > obviously we will have to wait until he returns to find out the
                                              > > > > details.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > > > A supernatural eternal being is my understanding of God.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Tim H:
                                              > > > > Certainly God is an Eternal supernatural Being, but God
                                              > > > > has always been God with no beginning and no end - and
                                              > > > > God cannot die. On the other hand, even though Jesus now
                                              > > > > lives forever because God raised him from the dead and gave
                                              > > > > him immortality, he did have a beginning. Also, Jesus could
                                              > > > > and did die before God raised him from the dead to immortality.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Petro:
                                              > > > Jesus had a bigining, an end and rebirth, therefore eternal.
                                              > > > Immortality is promised to all his children who are judged
                                              > > > worthy by Jesus, the Christ.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > TIM H:
                                              > > But Jesus was never eternal like God is Eternal, since God
                                              > > had no beginning, but Jesus did. Jesus is now eternal since
                                              > > God raised him from the dead to live forever.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > > > > Tim H:
                                              > > > > > You certainly have the right to believe anything you want
                                              > > > > to believe just as we all do, and you have the freedom to
                                              > > > > make up anything you want to believe even when it's not in
                                              > > > > Scripture - but I highly advise against it.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > > > You are accusing me of making up stuff if I say 'thru
                                              > > > > literal birth'? John 3 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the
                                              > > > > truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is
                                              > > > > born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh,
                                              > > > > but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be
                                              > > > > surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Tim H:
                                              > > > > I'm sorry, I do not understand what you are trying to say here.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > I was refering to two births. the physical and the spiritual
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > TIM H:
                                              > > Okay, but what point were you trying to make?
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > > > > Tim H:
                                              > > > > > Jesus never called Abraham his father. He only called God
                                              > > his Father. The above verse is Jesus speaking to the Pharisees
                                              > > where Jesus says, "your" father Abraham - NOT "my" father Abraham.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > > > God is His Father, No doubt about that. I am as well sure
                                              > > > > that Abraham saw Jesus, as Jesus saw Abraham In Heaven as well.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Tim H:
                                              > > > > > Again, you are making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > > > It is my belief that Jesus is with Abraham in Heaven, But
                                              > > > > again Scripture does not say that, Even though I know it is
                                              > > > > the literal Truth of the Scripture.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Tim H:
                                              > > > > > If Scripture does not say it, then you cannot know that
                                              > > > > it is the literal truth of Scripture. If Scripture does not
                                              > > > > say it, then you are simply imagining it with your own
                                              > > > > imagination - "making up stuff" just like I've said.
                                              > > > > > According to Scripture Jesus is in heaven at the right
                                              > > > > hand of God, but Abraham is not in heaven, just as King
                                              > > > > David is not in heaven. They are dead and waiting for the
                                              > > > > resurrection just like everyone else. Just read the
                                              > > > > following passage:
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you
                                              > > > > of the patriarch David [and Abraham, and everyone else] that
                                              > > > > he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto
                                              > > > > this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God
                                              > > > > had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins,
                                              > > > > according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on His
                                              > > > > throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of
                                              > > > > Christ, that his soul was not left in hell [the grave], neither
                                              > > > > his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised
                                              > > > > up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the
                                              > > > > right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father
                                              > > > > the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which
                                              > > > > ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the
                                              > > > > heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord [God] said unto my
                                              > > > > Lord [Jesus Christ], Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I
                                              > > > > make thy foes thy footstool.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Abraham is not in heaven, just as King David is not in heaven.
                                              > > > > Jesus Christ was raised from the dead by God as the FIRSTFRUITS.
                                              > > > > Jesus was the FIRST to be raised from the dead by God and given
                                              > > > > everlasting life. Everyone else is DEAD and awaiting the
                                              > > > > resurrection of the DEAD. Just read 1 Corinthians chapter 15.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > > > Hebrews 2 14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too
                                              > > > > shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy
                                              > > > > him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free
                                              > > > > those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of
                                              > > > > death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's
                                              > > > > descendants.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > TIM H:
                                              > > > > So, what is your point for citing this Scripture?
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > Heaven is where Abraham descendants are?
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > TIM H:
                                              > > If that was your point then you did not make it, because
                                              > > it is simply not the truth according to Scripture. The
                                              > > verses I cited above (Acts 2:29-35) and 1 Cor chapter 15
                                              > > make it abundantly clear that no one is in heaven except
                                              > > for God, Jesus Christ, and the heavenly host of angels.
                                              > > No man has ascended to heaven except for Jesus Christ.
                                              > > Everyone who has died is dead and awaiting resurrection.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > > > Yes Jesus is talking to the Pharisees who believed their
                                              > > > > Father, genetically, is Abraham. Jesus believed Abraham was
                                              > > > > his FAther in the spiritual sense, therefore when He saw the
                                              > > > > day of the Lord Jesus He, Abraham was glad.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Tim H:
                                              > > > > > You are still making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                              > > > > There is nothing in Scripture that tells us Jesus believed
                                              > > > > Abraham was his father in the spiritual sense. That is only
                                              > > > > from your own imagination.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Butros:
                                              > > > > > The Pharisees believed they were the Israelites.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Tim H:
                                              > > > > That's because the Pharisees were Israelites.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > Romans 9 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from
                                              > > Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
                                              > > 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and
                                              > > the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law,
                                              > > and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the
                                              > > fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
                                              > > who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > TIM H:
                                              > > Again, Pedro, what is your point in citing this Scripture?
                                              > > It does no good to cite Scripture without any explanation.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > > > I know you do not believe that Jesus is God, however now I
                                              > > > > understand that you believe He is the Son of God literally,
                                              > > > > which I understand to mean that Jesus is the figure of God.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Tim H:
                                              > > > > > Yes, I believe Jesus is the son of God literally, and I
                                              > > > > believe that Jesus was the image of God since he perfectly
                                              > > > > represented God's Heart, Mind, and Will to mankind, and as
                                              > > > > God's appointed representative to mankind He spoke for God.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > > > I believe in a literal Father who is God, in a literal Son
                                              > > > > who is Jesus and in a literal Spirit who are his Holy people.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Tim H:
                                              > > > > > I agree there is a literal Father who is God and a literal
                                              > > > > son who is Jesus. I also believe that the literal Spirit of
                                              > > > > God lives in all true believers in God and His son, the true
                                              > > > > children of God who are His holy people.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > > > Amen, Literally they are Three, Figuratively they are One.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Tim H:
                                              > > > > > There you go again, making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Pedro:
                                              > > > > > Just was agreeing with what you stated. LOL
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > In the Christ
                                              > > > > > Butros Abu Shanab
                                              > > > > > Chairman HOLYLANDERS
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Tim H:
                                              > > > > Oh, maybe I misunderstood you. If you mean that (1) God,
                                              > > > > (2) Jesus, and (3) the children of God are three, yet they
                                              > > > > are all one spiritually, then yes, I agree with that!
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > In Christ,
                                              > > > > Tim H
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Petro:
                                              > > > AAmeen.
                                              > > > Therefore my Christian belief in The Trinity of Persons,
                                              > > > yet the Onenss of The Spirit.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Tim H:
                                              > > One can say God is a "person" and Jesus is a "person" but the
                                              > > children of God are many persons - not just one person. So,
                                              > > this is really not a "trinity of persons" anyway. Also, it
                                              > > does nothing but cause confusion to refer to a "trinity" that
                                              > > has been fabricated by your own imagination which is different
                                              > > than the common doctrine of the trinity. Do you actually know
                                              > > anyone that believes this besides yourself?
                                              > >
                                              > > In Christ,
                                              > > Tim H
                                            • Eric Alan Marx
                                              So I guess someone is stating that Scripture is wrong, because that is all that I was teaching. Eric Alan Marx red_1106@yahoo.com
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Feb 15, 2010
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                                                So I guess someone is stating that Scripture is wrong, because that is all that I was teaching.

                                                Eric Alan Marx
                                                red_1106@...

                                                --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, "Tim H" <THardesty@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hi Eric,
                                                >
                                                > By the same token, I hope no one believes the false
                                                > teaching that Jesus is the Creator and is God, but
                                                > sadly, I know there are many who believe it such as
                                                > yourself and even teach it.
                                                >
                                                > In Christ,
                                                > Tim H
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > Eric Alan Marx wrote:
                                                > > It was stated, "But Jesus was never eternal like God is Eternal, since God had no beginning, but Jesus did. Jesus is now eternal since
                                                > > God raised him from the dead to live forever."
                                                > >
                                                > > I sure hope someone does not believe what they just stated because it looks like someone is stating Jesus was created but the Bible states He is the Creator. Please read the beginning of John and other places in Scripture where it tells us that Jesus is the Creator and therefore was never created, because He is God.
                                                > >
                                                > > Isaiah 29:23
                                                > > Isaiah 40:28
                                                > > Isaiah 43:1
                                                > > Isaiah 43:15
                                                > > Isaiah 45:18
                                                > > Isaiah 54:5
                                                > > Mark 1:24
                                                > > John 1:1-3
                                                > > John 1:14
                                                > > John 5:36-47
                                                > > John 14:1-7
                                                > > Romans 1:25
                                                > > 1 Corinthians 8:6
                                                > > 1 Peter 4:19
                                                > >
                                                > > "For when he sees his children, the work of My hands, in his midst, they shall set apart My Name, and set apart the Set-apart One of [Yaaqob], and fear the Elohim of [Yisrael]. (Isaiah 29:23 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                > >
                                                > > Did you not know? Have you not heard? The everlasting Elohim, [YHWH], the Creator of the ends of the earth, neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable. (Isaiah 40:28 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                > >
                                                > > But now, thus said [YHWH], your Creator, O [Yaaqob], and He who formed you, O [Yisrael], "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you. I have called you by your name, you are Mine. (Isaiah 43:1 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                > >
                                                > > "I am [YHWH], your Set-apart One, Creator of [Yisrael], your Sovereign." (Isaiah 43:15 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                > >
                                                > > For thus said [YHWH], Creator of the heavens, He is Elohim, Former of earth and its Maker, He established it, He did not create it to be empty, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am [YHWH], and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:18 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                > >
                                                > > "For your Maker is your husband, [YHWH] of hosts is His Name, and the Set-apart One of [Yisrael] is your Redeemer. He is called the Elohim of all the earth. (Isaiah 54:5 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                > >
                                                > > saying, "Ha! What have we to do with You, [Yeshua] of Natsareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are: the Set-apart One of Elohim!" (Mark 1:24 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                > >
                                                > > In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim. He was in the beginning with Elohim. All came to be through Him, and without Him not even one came to be that came to be. (John 1:1-3 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                > >
                                                > > And the Word became flesh and pitched His tent among us, and we saw His esteem, esteem as of an only brought-forth of a father, complete in favour and truth. (John 1:14 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                > >
                                                > > "But I have a greater witness than that of [Yohanan], for the works that the Father gave Me to accomplish, the works that I do, bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. "And the Father who sent Me, He bore witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. "And you do not have His Word staying in you, because you do not believe Him whom He sent. "You search the Scriptures, because you think you possess everlasting life in them. And these are the ones that bear witness of Me. "But you do not desire to come to Me in order to possess life. "I do not receive esteem from men, but I know you, that you do not have the love of Elohim in you. "I have come in My Father's Name and you do not receive Me, if another comes in his own name, him you would receive. "How are you able to believe, when you are receiving esteem from one another, and the esteem that is from the only Elohim you do not seek? "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Mosheh, in whom you have set your expectation. "For if you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, since he wrote about Me. "But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My words?" (John 5:36-47 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                > >
                                                > > "Let not your heart be troubled. Believe in Elohim, believe also in Me. "In My Father's house are many staying places. And if not, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I shall come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, you might be too. "And where I go you know, and the way you know." T'oma said to Him, "Master, we do not know where You are going, and how are we able to know the way?" [Yeshua] said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father too. From now on you know Him, and have seen." (John 14:1-7 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                > >
                                                > > who changed the truth of Elohim into the falsehood, and worshipped and served what was created rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. [Amen]. (Romans 1:25 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                > >
                                                > > for us there is one Elohim, the Father, from whom all came and for whom we live, and one Master [Yeshua] Messiah, through whom all came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:6 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                > >
                                                > > So then, those who suffer according to the desire of Elohim should commit their lives to a trustworthy Creator, in doing good. (1 Peter 4:19 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, "Tim H" <THardesty@> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Hi Pedro, my comments below.
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > > > Tim H wrote:
                                                > > > > > > Taking things literally that were written figuratively and
                                                > > > > > taking things figuratively that were written literally is a
                                                > > > > > very common mistake that leads to misinterpretation of the
                                                > > > > > Bible writers' intended meaning, and thus leads one into error.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > > > Now if I say that Jesus is the Son of God literally within
                                                > > > > > it is implied that He is God the Son figuratively. We
                                                > > > > > are children of God figuratively yet the Holy People literally
                                                > > > > > whose Patriarch is Abraham and Jesus, son of David, being The
                                                > > > > > Holy Christ, `Our King'.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Tim H:
                                                > > > > > No, not at all. Saying Jesus is the son of God literally
                                                > > > > > agrees with what Scripture tells us. Saying that he is
                                                > > > > > God the Son figuratively is not what Scripture tells us.
                                                > > > > > Scripture says no such thing. The phrase "God the Son"
                                                > > > > > was invented by the same men who also invented the false
                                                > > > > > doctrine of the trinity, and those who have chosen to
                                                > > > > > believe in that doctrine even though it is not Biblical.
                                                > > > > > There is nothing in Scripture that implies that Jesus
                                                > > > > > was or is "God the Son."
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Petro:
                                                > > > > Scripture teaches that Jesus is literally Son of God,
                                                > > > therefore god, and He is Literally Son of Adam, therefore
                                                > > > adam. Yet he is neither for He is The Three.
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > TIM H:
                                                > > > This is the kind of stuff that is so frustrating about having
                                                > > > a discussion with you. It seems you are content with just
                                                > > > saying whatever you imagine to be the truth regardless of
                                                > > > whether or not it agrees with Scripture - which this does not.
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > > > Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no
                                                > > > > > means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham,
                                                > > > > > from the tribe of Benjamin.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > So Israelite is defined as a descendant of Abraham in a
                                                > > > > > figurative sense, while God's people in a literal sense.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                > > > > > > This does not define an Israelite as a descendent of Abraham.
                                                > > > > > Yes, Israelites are descendents of Abraham, but non-Israelites
                                                > > > > > are also descendents of Abraham. What makes Paul an Israelite
                                                > > > > > is not because he was descended from Abraham, but because he
                                                > > > > > was of the tribe of Benjamin.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > > > I am using the word Israelite in the way Jesus used it when
                                                > > > > > talking to Nathaneel.
                                                > > > > > > John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of
                                                > > > > > him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Abraham
                                                > > > > > fits this definition. Especially when scriptures call him the
                                                > > > > > companion of God?
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Tim H:
                                                > > > > > I see no logic in your explanation. Again, Abraham was not
                                                > > > > > an Israelite neither literally nor figuratively, so he does
                                                > > > > > not fit this "definition," and just because Jesus called
                                                > > > > > Nathanael an Israelite does not change this fact.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > I see your problem, you mean literally an Israelite, as a
                                                > > > descendant of Jacob genetically?? Not one member of the
                                                > > > tribe of El 'in whom no guile', including those who are
                                                > > > literally of Israel.
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > TIM H:
                                                > > > Of course, Pedro, that's what it means to literally be an
                                                > > > Israelite. It means genetically an Israelite. If we are
                                                > > > not talking about actual blood descendents of Jacob then
                                                > > > we are not talking about literal Israelites.
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > Scripture teaches that Jesus is of the seed of Abraham.
                                                > > > and as there is no English word, Abrahamite, Israelite is
                                                > > > used instead I would assume?
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > TIM H:
                                                > > > I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > Romans 9 6Not as though the word of God hath taken none
                                                > > > effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
                                                > > > 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they
                                                > > > all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > TIM H:
                                                > > > Posting Scripture without any explanation does not
                                                > > > accomplish anything. I know what these verses mean to
                                                > > > me, but you posted them, so what do they mean to you?
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > > > I can accept that. Jesus is the Son of Man figuratively
                                                > > > > > > and at the same time the Son of God literally.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                > > > > > > No, Jesus was literally the son of man and is literally the
                                                > > > > > son of God. They are both literally true. That's because the
                                                > > > > > phrase "son of man" simply means "a man." Is the risen Christ
                                                > > > > > still a man? I believe so since Paul refers to him as a man
                                                > > > > > long after his death and resurrection, but of course he is
                                                > > > > > much more than just a natural human being now, so even though
                                                > > > > > I believe he is still a man, he is also a supernatural being –
                                                > > > > > obviously we will have to wait until he returns to find out the
                                                > > > > > details.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > > > A supernatural eternal being is my understanding of God.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Tim H:
                                                > > > > > Certainly God is an Eternal supernatural Being, but God
                                                > > > > > has always been God with no beginning and no end - and
                                                > > > > > God cannot die. On the other hand, even though Jesus now
                                                > > > > > lives forever because God raised him from the dead and gave
                                                > > > > > him immortality, he did have a beginning. Also, Jesus could
                                                > > > > > and did die before God raised him from the dead to immortality.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Petro:
                                                > > > > Jesus had a bigining, an end and rebirth, therefore eternal.
                                                > > > > Immortality is promised to all his children who are judged
                                                > > > > worthy by Jesus, the Christ.
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > TIM H:
                                                > > > But Jesus was never eternal like God is Eternal, since God
                                                > > > had no beginning, but Jesus did. Jesus is now eternal since
                                                > > > God raised him from the dead to live forever.
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                > > > > > > You certainly have the right to believe anything you want
                                                > > > > > to believe just as we all do, and you have the freedom to
                                                > > > > > make up anything you want to believe even when it's not in
                                                > > > > > Scripture - but I highly advise against it.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > > > You are accusing me of making up stuff if I say 'thru
                                                > > > > > literal birth'? John 3 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the
                                                > > > > > truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is
                                                > > > > > born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh,
                                                > > > > > but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be
                                                > > > > > surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Tim H:
                                                > > > > > I'm sorry, I do not understand what you are trying to say here.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > I was refering to two births. the physical and the spiritual
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > TIM H:
                                                > > > Okay, but what point were you trying to make?
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                > > > > > > Jesus never called Abraham his father. He only called God
                                                > > > his Father. The above verse is Jesus speaking to the Pharisees
                                                > > > where Jesus says, "your" father Abraham - NOT "my" father Abraham.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > > > God is His Father, No doubt about that. I am as well sure
                                                > > > > > that Abraham saw Jesus, as Jesus saw Abraham In Heaven as well.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                > > > > > > Again, you are making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > > > It is my belief that Jesus is with Abraham in Heaven, But
                                                > > > > > again Scripture does not say that, Even though I know it is
                                                > > > > > the literal Truth of the Scripture.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                > > > > > > If Scripture does not say it, then you cannot know that
                                                > > > > > it is the literal truth of Scripture. If Scripture does not
                                                > > > > > say it, then you are simply imagining it with your own
                                                > > > > > imagination - "making up stuff" just like I've said.
                                                > > > > > > According to Scripture Jesus is in heaven at the right
                                                > > > > > hand of God, but Abraham is not in heaven, just as King
                                                > > > > > David is not in heaven. They are dead and waiting for the
                                                > > > > > resurrection just like everyone else. Just read the
                                                > > > > > following passage:
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you
                                                > > > > > of the patriarch David [and Abraham, and everyone else] that
                                                > > > > > he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto
                                                > > > > > this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God
                                                > > > > > had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins,
                                                > > > > > according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on His
                                                > > > > > throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of
                                                > > > > > Christ, that his soul was not left in hell [the grave], neither
                                                > > > > > his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised
                                                > > > > > up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the
                                                > > > > > right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father
                                                > > > > > the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which
                                                > > > > > ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the
                                                > > > > > heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord [God] said unto my
                                                > > > > > Lord [Jesus Christ], Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I
                                                > > > > > make thy foes thy footstool.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Abraham is not in heaven, just as King David is not in heaven.
                                                > > > > > Jesus Christ was raised from the dead by God as the FIRSTFRUITS.
                                                > > > > > Jesus was the FIRST to be raised from the dead by God and given
                                                > > > > > everlasting life. Everyone else is DEAD and awaiting the
                                                > > > > > resurrection of the DEAD. Just read 1 Corinthians chapter 15.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > > > Hebrews 2 14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too
                                                > > > > > shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy
                                                > > > > > him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free
                                                > > > > > those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of
                                                > > > > > death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's
                                                > > > > > descendants.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > TIM H:
                                                > > > > > So, what is your point for citing this Scripture?
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > Heaven is where Abraham descendants are?
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > TIM H:
                                                > > > If that was your point then you did not make it, because
                                                > > > it is simply not the truth according to Scripture. The
                                                > > > verses I cited above (Acts 2:29-35) and 1 Cor chapter 15
                                                > > > make it abundantly clear that no one is in heaven except
                                                > > > for God, Jesus Christ, and the heavenly host of angels.
                                                > > > No man has ascended to heaven except for Jesus Christ.
                                                > > > Everyone who has died is dead and awaiting resurrection.
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > > > Yes Jesus is talking to the Pharisees who believed their
                                                > > > > > Father, genetically, is Abraham. Jesus believed Abraham was
                                                > > > > > his FAther in the spiritual sense, therefore when He saw the
                                                > > > > > day of the Lord Jesus He, Abraham was glad.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                > > > > > > You are still making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                                > > > > > There is nothing in Scripture that tells us Jesus believed
                                                > > > > > Abraham was his father in the spiritual sense. That is only
                                                > > > > > from your own imagination.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Butros:
                                                > > > > > > The Pharisees believed they were the Israelites.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Tim H:
                                                > > > > > That's because the Pharisees were Israelites.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > Romans 9 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from
                                                > > > Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
                                                > > > 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and
                                                > > > the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law,
                                                > > > and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the
                                                > > > fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
                                                > > > who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > TIM H:
                                                > > > Again, Pedro, what is your point in citing this Scripture?
                                                > > > It does no good to cite Scripture without any explanation.
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > > > I know you do not believe that Jesus is God, however now I
                                                > > > > > understand that you believe He is the Son of God literally,
                                                > > > > > which I understand to mean that Jesus is the figure of God.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                > > > > > > Yes, I believe Jesus is the son of God literally, and I
                                                > > > > > believe that Jesus was the image of God since he perfectly
                                                > > > > > represented God's Heart, Mind, and Will to mankind, and as
                                                > > > > > God's appointed representative to mankind He spoke for God.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > > > I believe in a literal Father who is God, in a literal Son
                                                > > > > > who is Jesus and in a literal Spirit who are his Holy people.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                > > > > > > I agree there is a literal Father who is God and a literal
                                                > > > > > son who is Jesus. I also believe that the literal Spirit of
                                                > > > > > God lives in all true believers in God and His son, the true
                                                > > > > > children of God who are His holy people.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > > > Amen, Literally they are Three, Figuratively they are One.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                > > > > > > There you go again, making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                > > > > > > Just was agreeing with what you stated. LOL
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > In the Christ
                                                > > > > > > Butros Abu Shanab
                                                > > > > > > Chairman HOLYLANDERS
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Tim H:
                                                > > > > > Oh, maybe I misunderstood you. If you mean that (1) God,
                                                > > > > > (2) Jesus, and (3) the children of God are three, yet they
                                                > > > > > are all one spiritually, then yes, I agree with that!
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > In Christ,
                                                > > > > > Tim H
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Petro:
                                                > > > > AAmeen.
                                                > > > > Therefore my Christian belief in The Trinity of Persons,
                                                > > > > yet the Onenss of The Spirit.
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Tim H:
                                                > > > One can say God is a "person" and Jesus is a "person" but the
                                                > > > children of God are many persons - not just one person. So,
                                                > > > this is really not a "trinity of persons" anyway. Also, it
                                                > > > does nothing but cause confusion to refer to a "trinity" that
                                                > > > has been fabricated by your own imagination which is different
                                                > > > than the common doctrine of the trinity. Do you actually know
                                                > > > anyone that believes this besides yourself?
                                                > > >
                                                > > > In Christ,
                                                > > > Tim H
                                                >
                                              • Tim H
                                                Hi Eric, no, someone was not stating that Scripture is wrong, but was stating that your interpretation of Scripture is wrong, so your teaching is wrong... In
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Feb 15, 2010
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                                                  Hi Eric, no, someone was not stating that Scripture
                                                  is wrong, but was stating that your interpretation
                                                  of Scripture is wrong, so your teaching is wrong...

                                                  In Christ,
                                                  Tim H


                                                  > Eric Alan Marx wrote:
                                                  > So I guess someone is stating that Scripture is wrong,
                                                  > because that is all that I was teaching.
                                                  >
                                                  > Eric Alan Marx
                                                  > red_1106@...
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > > Tim H wrote:
                                                  > > Hi Eric,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > By the same token, I hope no one believes the false
                                                  > > teaching that Jesus is the Creator and is God, but
                                                  > > sadly, I know there are many who believe it such as
                                                  > > yourself and even teach it.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > In Christ,
                                                  > > Tim H
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Eric Alan Marx wrote:
                                                  > > > It was stated, "But Jesus was never eternal like God is Eternal, since God had no beginning, but Jesus did. Jesus is now eternal since
                                                  > > > God raised him from the dead to live forever."
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I sure hope someone does not believe what they just stated because it looks like someone is stating Jesus was created but the Bible states He is the Creator. Please read the beginning of John and other places in Scripture where it tells us that Jesus is the Creator and therefore was never created, because He is God.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Isaiah 29:23
                                                  > > > Isaiah 40:28
                                                  > > > Isaiah 43:1
                                                  > > > Isaiah 43:15
                                                  > > > Isaiah 45:18
                                                  > > > Isaiah 54:5
                                                  > > > Mark 1:24
                                                  > > > John 1:1-3
                                                  > > > John 1:14
                                                  > > > John 5:36-47
                                                  > > > John 14:1-7
                                                  > > > Romans 1:25
                                                  > > > 1 Corinthians 8:6
                                                  > > > 1 Peter 4:19
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > "For when he sees his children, the work of My hands, in his midst, they shall set apart My Name, and set apart the Set-apart One of [Yaaqob], and fear the Elohim of [Yisrael]. (Isaiah 29:23 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Did you not know? Have you not heard? The everlasting Elohim, [YHWH], the Creator of the ends of the earth, neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable. (Isaiah 40:28 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > But now, thus said [YHWH], your Creator, O [Yaaqob], and He who formed you, O [Yisrael], "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you. I have called you by your name, you are Mine. (Isaiah 43:1 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > "I am [YHWH], your Set-apart One, Creator of [Yisrael], your Sovereign." (Isaiah 43:15 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > For thus said [YHWH], Creator of the heavens, He is Elohim, Former of earth and its Maker, He established it, He did not create it to be empty, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am [YHWH], and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:18 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > "For your Maker is your husband, [YHWH] of hosts is His Name, and the Set-apart One of [Yisrael] is your Redeemer. He is called the Elohim of all the earth. (Isaiah 54:5 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > saying, "Ha! What have we to do with You, [Yeshua] of Natsareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are: the Set-apart One of Elohim!" (Mark 1:24 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim. He was in the beginning with Elohim. All came to be through Him, and without Him not even one came to be that came to be. (John 1:1-3 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > And the Word became flesh and pitched His tent among us, and we saw His esteem, esteem as of an only brought-forth of a father, complete in favour and truth. (John 1:14 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > "But I have a greater witness than that of [Yohanan], for the works that the Father gave Me to accomplish, the works that I do, bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. "And the Father who sent Me, He bore witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. "And you do not have His Word staying in you, because you do not believe Him whom He sent. "You search the Scriptures, because you think you possess everlasting life in them. And these are the ones that bear witness of Me. "But you do not desire to come to Me in order to possess life. "I do not receive esteem from men, but I know you, that you do not have the love of Elohim in you. "I have come in My Father's Name and you do not receive Me, if another comes in his own name, him you would receive. "How are you able to believe, when you are receiving esteem from one another, and the esteem that is from the only Elohim you do not seek? "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Mosheh, in whom you have set your expectation. "For if you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, since he wrote about Me. "But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My words?" (John 5:36-47 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > "Let not your heart be troubled. Believe in Elohim, believe also in Me. "In My Father's house are many staying places. And if not, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I shall come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, you might be too. "And where I go you know, and the way you know." T'oma said to Him, "Master, we do not know where You are going, and how are we able to know the way?" [Yeshua] said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father too. From now on you know Him, and have seen." (John 14:1-7 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > who changed the truth of Elohim into the falsehood, and worshipped and served what was created rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. [Amen]. (Romans 1:25 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > for us there is one Elohim, the Father, from whom all came and for whom we live, and one Master [Yeshua] Messiah, through whom all came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:6 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > So then, those who suffer according to the desire of Elohim should commit their lives to a trustworthy Creator, in doing good. (1 Peter 4:19 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, "Tim H" <THardesty@> wrote:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Hi Pedro, my comments below.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Tim H wrote:
                                                  > > > > > > > Taking things literally that were written figuratively and
                                                  > > > > > > taking things figuratively that were written literally is a
                                                  > > > > > > very common mistake that leads to misinterpretation of the
                                                  > > > > > > Bible writers' intended meaning, and thus leads one into error.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > > > Now if I say that Jesus is the Son of God literally within
                                                  > > > > > > it is implied that He is God the Son figuratively. We
                                                  > > > > > > are children of God figuratively yet the Holy People literally
                                                  > > > > > > whose Patriarch is Abraham and Jesus, son of David, being The
                                                  > > > > > > Holy Christ, `Our King'.
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                  > > > > > > No, not at all. Saying Jesus is the son of God literally
                                                  > > > > > > agrees with what Scripture tells us. Saying that he is
                                                  > > > > > > God the Son figuratively is not what Scripture tells us.
                                                  > > > > > > Scripture says no such thing. The phrase "God the Son"
                                                  > > > > > > was invented by the same men who also invented the false
                                                  > > > > > > doctrine of the trinity, and those who have chosen to
                                                  > > > > > > believe in that doctrine even though it is not Biblical.
                                                  > > > > > > There is nothing in Scripture that implies that Jesus
                                                  > > > > > > was or is "God the Son."
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Petro:
                                                  > > > > > Scripture teaches that Jesus is literally Son of God,
                                                  > > > > therefore god, and He is Literally Son of Adam, therefore
                                                  > > > > adam. Yet he is neither for He is The Three.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > TIM H:
                                                  > > > > This is the kind of stuff that is so frustrating about having
                                                  > > > > a discussion with you. It seems you are content with just
                                                  > > > > saying whatever you imagine to be the truth regardless of
                                                  > > > > whether or not it agrees with Scripture - which this does not.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > > > Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no
                                                  > > > > > > means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham,
                                                  > > > > > > from the tribe of Benjamin.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > So Israelite is defined as a descendant of Abraham in a
                                                  > > > > > > figurative sense, while God's people in a literal sense.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                  > > > > > > > This does not define an Israelite as a descendent of Abraham.
                                                  > > > > > > Yes, Israelites are descendents of Abraham, but non-Israelites
                                                  > > > > > > are also descendents of Abraham. What makes Paul an Israelite
                                                  > > > > > > is not because he was descended from Abraham, but because he
                                                  > > > > > > was of the tribe of Benjamin.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > > > I am using the word Israelite in the way Jesus used it when
                                                  > > > > > > talking to Nathaneel.
                                                  > > > > > > > John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of
                                                  > > > > > > him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Abraham
                                                  > > > > > > fits this definition. Especially when scriptures call him the
                                                  > > > > > > companion of God?
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                  > > > > > > I see no logic in your explanation. Again, Abraham was not
                                                  > > > > > > an Israelite neither literally nor figuratively, so he does
                                                  > > > > > > not fit this "definition," and just because Jesus called
                                                  > > > > > > Nathanael an Israelite does not change this fact.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > I see your problem, you mean literally an Israelite, as a
                                                  > > > > descendant of Jacob genetically?? Not one member of the
                                                  > > > > tribe of El 'in whom no guile', including those who are
                                                  > > > > literally of Israel.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > TIM H:
                                                  > > > > Of course, Pedro, that's what it means to literally be an
                                                  > > > > Israelite. It means genetically an Israelite. If we are
                                                  > > > > not talking about actual blood descendents of Jacob then
                                                  > > > > we are not talking about literal Israelites.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > Scripture teaches that Jesus is of the seed of Abraham.
                                                  > > > > and as there is no English word, Abrahamite, Israelite is
                                                  > > > > used instead I would assume?
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > TIM H:
                                                  > > > > I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > Romans 9 6Not as though the word of God hath taken none
                                                  > > > > effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
                                                  > > > > 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they
                                                  > > > > all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > TIM H:
                                                  > > > > Posting Scripture without any explanation does not
                                                  > > > > accomplish anything. I know what these verses mean to
                                                  > > > > me, but you posted them, so what do they mean to you?
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > > > I can accept that. Jesus is the Son of Man figuratively
                                                  > > > > > > > and at the same time the Son of God literally.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                  > > > > > > > No, Jesus was literally the son of man and is literally the
                                                  > > > > > > son of God. They are both literally true. That's because the
                                                  > > > > > > phrase "son of man" simply means "a man." Is the risen Christ
                                                  > > > > > > still a man? I believe so since Paul refers to him as a man
                                                  > > > > > > long after his death and resurrection, but of course he is
                                                  > > > > > > much more than just a natural human being now, so even though
                                                  > > > > > > I believe he is still a man, he is also a supernatural being –
                                                  > > > > > > obviously we will have to wait until he returns to find out the
                                                  > > > > > > details.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > > > A supernatural eternal being is my understanding of God.
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                  > > > > > > Certainly God is an Eternal supernatural Being, but God
                                                  > > > > > > has always been God with no beginning and no end - and
                                                  > > > > > > God cannot die. On the other hand, even though Jesus now
                                                  > > > > > > lives forever because God raised him from the dead and gave
                                                  > > > > > > him immortality, he did have a beginning. Also, Jesus could
                                                  > > > > > > and did die before God raised him from the dead to immortality.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Petro:
                                                  > > > > > Jesus had a bigining, an end and rebirth, therefore eternal.
                                                  > > > > > Immortality is promised to all his children who are judged
                                                  > > > > > worthy by Jesus, the Christ.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > TIM H:
                                                  > > > > But Jesus was never eternal like God is Eternal, since God
                                                  > > > > had no beginning, but Jesus did. Jesus is now eternal since
                                                  > > > > God raised him from the dead to live forever.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                  > > > > > > > You certainly have the right to believe anything you want
                                                  > > > > > > to believe just as we all do, and you have the freedom to
                                                  > > > > > > make up anything you want to believe even when it's not in
                                                  > > > > > > Scripture - but I highly advise against it.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > > > You are accusing me of making up stuff if I say 'thru
                                                  > > > > > > literal birth'? John 3 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the
                                                  > > > > > > truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is
                                                  > > > > > > born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh,
                                                  > > > > > > but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be
                                                  > > > > > > surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                  > > > > > > I'm sorry, I do not understand what you are trying to say here.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > I was refering to two births. the physical and the spiritual
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > TIM H:
                                                  > > > > Okay, but what point were you trying to make?
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                  > > > > > > > Jesus never called Abraham his father. He only called God
                                                  > > > > his Father. The above verse is Jesus speaking to the Pharisees
                                                  > > > > where Jesus says, "your" father Abraham - NOT "my" father Abraham.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > > > God is His Father, No doubt about that. I am as well sure
                                                  > > > > > > that Abraham saw Jesus, as Jesus saw Abraham In Heaven as well.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                  > > > > > > > Again, you are making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > > > It is my belief that Jesus is with Abraham in Heaven, But
                                                  > > > > > > again Scripture does not say that, Even though I know it is
                                                  > > > > > > the literal Truth of the Scripture.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                  > > > > > > > If Scripture does not say it, then you cannot know that
                                                  > > > > > > it is the literal truth of Scripture. If Scripture does not
                                                  > > > > > > say it, then you are simply imagining it with your own
                                                  > > > > > > imagination - "making up stuff" just like I've said.
                                                  > > > > > > > According to Scripture Jesus is in heaven at the right
                                                  > > > > > > hand of God, but Abraham is not in heaven, just as King
                                                  > > > > > > David is not in heaven. They are dead and waiting for the
                                                  > > > > > > resurrection just like everyone else. Just read the
                                                  > > > > > > following passage:
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you
                                                  > > > > > > of the patriarch David [and Abraham, and everyone else] that
                                                  > > > > > > he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto
                                                  > > > > > > this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God
                                                  > > > > > > had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins,
                                                  > > > > > > according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on His
                                                  > > > > > > throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of
                                                  > > > > > > Christ, that his soul was not left in hell [the grave], neither
                                                  > > > > > > his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised
                                                  > > > > > > up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the
                                                  > > > > > > right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father
                                                  > > > > > > the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which
                                                  > > > > > > ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the
                                                  > > > > > > heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord [God] said unto my
                                                  > > > > > > Lord [Jesus Christ], Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I
                                                  > > > > > > make thy foes thy footstool.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Abraham is not in heaven, just as King David is not in heaven.
                                                  > > > > > > Jesus Christ was raised from the dead by God as the FIRSTFRUITS.
                                                  > > > > > > Jesus was the FIRST to be raised from the dead by God and given
                                                  > > > > > > everlasting life. Everyone else is DEAD and awaiting the
                                                  > > > > > > resurrection of the DEAD. Just read 1 Corinthians chapter 15.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > > > Hebrews 2 14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too
                                                  > > > > > > shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy
                                                  > > > > > > him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free
                                                  > > > > > > those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of
                                                  > > > > > > death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's
                                                  > > > > > > descendants.
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > TIM H:
                                                  > > > > > > So, what is your point for citing this Scripture?
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > Heaven is where Abraham descendants are?
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > TIM H:
                                                  > > > > If that was your point then you did not make it, because
                                                  > > > > it is simply not the truth according to Scripture. The
                                                  > > > > verses I cited above (Acts 2:29-35) and 1 Cor chapter 15
                                                  > > > > make it abundantly clear that no one is in heaven except
                                                  > > > > for God, Jesus Christ, and the heavenly host of angels.
                                                  > > > > No man has ascended to heaven except for Jesus Christ.
                                                  > > > > Everyone who has died is dead and awaiting resurrection.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > > > Yes Jesus is talking to the Pharisees who believed their
                                                  > > > > > > Father, genetically, is Abraham. Jesus believed Abraham was
                                                  > > > > > > his FAther in the spiritual sense, therefore when He saw the
                                                  > > > > > > day of the Lord Jesus He, Abraham was glad.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                  > > > > > > > You are still making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                                  > > > > > > There is nothing in Scripture that tells us Jesus believed
                                                  > > > > > > Abraham was his father in the spiritual sense. That is only
                                                  > > > > > > from your own imagination.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Butros:
                                                  > > > > > > > The Pharisees believed they were the Israelites.
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                  > > > > > > That's because the Pharisees were Israelites.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > Romans 9 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from
                                                  > > > > Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
                                                  > > > > 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and
                                                  > > > > the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law,
                                                  > > > > and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the
                                                  > > > > fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
                                                  > > > > who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > TIM H:
                                                  > > > > Again, Pedro, what is your point in citing this Scripture?
                                                  > > > > It does no good to cite Scripture without any explanation.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > > > I know you do not believe that Jesus is God, however now I
                                                  > > > > > > understand that you believe He is the Son of God literally,
                                                  > > > > > > which I understand to mean that Jesus is the figure of God.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                  > > > > > > > Yes, I believe Jesus is the son of God literally, and I
                                                  > > > > > > believe that Jesus was the image of God since he perfectly
                                                  > > > > > > represented God's Heart, Mind, and Will to mankind, and as
                                                  > > > > > > God's appointed representative to mankind He spoke for God.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > > > I believe in a literal Father who is God, in a literal Son
                                                  > > > > > > who is Jesus and in a literal Spirit who are his Holy people.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                  > > > > > > > I agree there is a literal Father who is God and a literal
                                                  > > > > > > son who is Jesus. I also believe that the literal Spirit of
                                                  > > > > > > God lives in all true believers in God and His son, the true
                                                  > > > > > > children of God who are His holy people.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > > > Amen, Literally they are Three, Figuratively they are One.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                  > > > > > > > There you go again, making up stuff that is not in Scripture.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Pedro:
                                                  > > > > > > > Just was agreeing with what you stated. LOL
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > In the Christ
                                                  > > > > > > > Butros Abu Shanab
                                                  > > > > > > > Chairman HOLYLANDERS
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > Tim H:
                                                  > > > > > > Oh, maybe I misunderstood you. If you mean that (1) God,
                                                  > > > > > > (2) Jesus, and (3) the children of God are three, yet they
                                                  > > > > > > are all one spiritually, then yes, I agree with that!
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > In Christ,
                                                  > > > > > > Tim H
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Petro:
                                                  > > > > > AAmeen.
                                                  > > > > > Therefore my Christian belief in The Trinity of Persons,
                                                  > > > > > yet the Onenss of The Spirit.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Tim H:
                                                  > > > > One can say God is a "person" and Jesus is a "person" but the
                                                  > > > > children of God are many persons - not just one person. So,
                                                  > > > > this is really not a "trinity of persons" anyway. Also, it
                                                  > > > > does nothing but cause confusion to refer to a "trinity" that
                                                  > > > > has been fabricated by your own imagination which is different
                                                  > > > > than the common doctrine of the trinity. Do you actually know
                                                  > > > > anyone that believes this besides yourself?
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > In Christ,
                                                  > > > > Tim H
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • Eric Alan Marx
                                                  It was stated, ...but was stating that your interpretation of Scripture is wrong, so your teaching is wrong My statement was directly from Scripture and I
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Feb 16, 2010
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                                                    It was stated, "...but was stating that your interpretation
                                                    of Scripture is wrong, so your teaching is wrong"

                                                    My statement was directly from Scripture and I used Scripture verses to back up my statement.

                                                    As no one has proven my Statement from Scripture is wrong or that the verses I posted to back up that Statement is wrong, and as I didn't interpret anything; then my teaching can not be wrong until someone proves anything about it is wrong.

                                                    Stating something without evidence and or proof does not prove anyone elses statements or interpretation is wrong.

                                                    To prove something wrong someone has to prove something stated or interpreted is not true backed up with actual evidence of that.

                                                    No evidence then it is only an opinion and can be disregarded.

                                                    Eric Alan Marx
                                                    red_1106@...

                                                    --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, "Tim H" <THardesty@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Hi Eric, no, someone was not stating that Scripture
                                                    > is wrong, but was stating that your interpretation
                                                    > of Scripture is wrong, so your teaching is wrong...
                                                    >
                                                    > In Christ,
                                                    > Tim H
                                                    >
                                                    > > Eric Alan Marx wrote:
                                                    > > So I guess someone is stating that Scripture is wrong,
                                                    > > because that is all that I was teaching.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Eric Alan Marx
                                                    > > red_1106@
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > Tim H wrote:
                                                    > > > Hi Eric,
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > By the same token, I hope no one believes the false
                                                    > > > teaching that Jesus is the Creator and is God, but
                                                    > > > sadly, I know there are many who believe it such as
                                                    > > > yourself and even teach it.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > In Christ,
                                                    > > > Tim H
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > > Eric Alan Marx wrote:
                                                    > > > > It was stated, "But Jesus was never eternal like God is Eternal, since God had no beginning, but Jesus did. Jesus is now eternal since
                                                    > > > > God raised him from the dead to live forever."
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > I sure hope someone does not believe what they just stated because it looks like someone is stating Jesus was created but the Bible states He is the Creator. Please read the beginning of John and other places in Scripture where it tells us that Jesus is the Creator and therefore was never created, because He is God.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Isaiah 29:23
                                                    > > > > Isaiah 40:28
                                                    > > > > Isaiah 43:1
                                                    > > > > Isaiah 43:15
                                                    > > > > Isaiah 45:18
                                                    > > > > Isaiah 54:5
                                                    > > > > Mark 1:24
                                                    > > > > John 1:1-3
                                                    > > > > John 1:14
                                                    > > > > John 5:36-47
                                                    > > > > John 14:1-7
                                                    > > > > Romans 1:25
                                                    > > > > 1 Corinthians 8:6
                                                    > > > > 1 Peter 4:19
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > "For when he sees his children, the work of My hands, in his midst, they shall set apart My Name, and set apart the Set-apart One of [Yaaqob], and fear the Elohim of [Yisrael]. (Isaiah 29:23 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Did you not know? Have you not heard? The everlasting Elohim, [YHWH], the Creator of the ends of the earth, neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable. (Isaiah 40:28 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > But now, thus said [YHWH], your Creator, O [Yaaqob], and He who formed you, O [Yisrael], "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you. I have called you by your name, you are Mine. (Isaiah 43:1 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > "I am [YHWH], your Set-apart One, Creator of [Yisrael], your Sovereign." (Isaiah 43:15 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > For thus said [YHWH], Creator of the heavens, He is Elohim, Former of earth and its Maker, He established it, He did not create it to be empty, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am [YHWH], and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:18 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > "For your Maker is your husband, [YHWH] of hosts is His Name, and the Set-apart One of [Yisrael] is your Redeemer. He is called the Elohim of all the earth. (Isaiah 54:5 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > saying, "Ha! What have we to do with You, [Yeshua] of Natsareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are: the Set-apart One of Elohim!" (Mark 1:24 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim. He was in the beginning with Elohim. All came to be through Him, and without Him not even one came to be that came to be. (John 1:1-3 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > And the Word became flesh and pitched His tent among us, and we saw His esteem, esteem as of an only brought-forth of a father, complete in favour and truth. (John 1:14 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > "But I have a greater witness than that of [Yohanan], for the works that the Father gave Me to accomplish, the works that I do, bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. "And the Father who sent Me, He bore witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. "And you do not have His Word staying in you, because you do not believe Him whom He sent. "You search the Scriptures, because you think you possess everlasting life in them. And these are the ones that bear witness of Me. "But you do not desire to come to Me in order to possess life. "I do not receive esteem from men, but I know you, that you do not have the love of Elohim in you. "I have come in My Father's Name and you do not receive Me, if another comes in his own name, him you would receive. "How are you able to believe, when you are receiving esteem from one another, and the esteem that is from the only Elohim you do not seek? "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Mosheh, in whom you have set your expectation. "For if you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, since he wrote about Me. "But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My words?" (John 5:36-47 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > "Let not your heart be troubled. Believe in Elohim, believe also in Me. "In My Father's house are many staying places. And if not, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I shall come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, you might be too. "And where I go you know, and the way you know." T'oma said to Him, "Master, we do not know where You are going, and how are we able to know the way?" [Yeshua] said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father too. From now on you know Him, and have seen." (John 14:1-7 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > who changed the truth of Elohim into the falsehood, and worshipped and served what was created rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. [Amen]. (Romans 1:25 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > for us there is one Elohim, the Father, from whom all came and for whom we live, and one Master [Yeshua] Messiah, through whom all came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:6 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > So then, those who suffer according to the desire of Elohim should commit their lives to a trustworthy Creator, in doing good. (1 Peter 4:19 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                  • Tim H
                                                    Hi Eric, my comments below. ... TIM H: Yes, you use Scripture to support your position, but when your interpretation of Scripture is incorrect then citing
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Feb 16, 2010
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                                                      Hi Eric, my comments below.


                                                      > Eric wrote:
                                                      > It was stated, "...but was stating that your interpretation
                                                      > of Scripture is wrong, so your teaching is wrong"
                                                      >
                                                      > My statement was directly from Scripture and I used Scripture
                                                      > verses to back up my statement.


                                                      TIM H:
                                                      Yes, you use Scripture to support your position, but when
                                                      your interpretation of Scripture is incorrect then citing
                                                      Scripture does not support your position.


                                                      > Eric wrote:
                                                      > As no one has proven my Statement from Scripture is wrong or
                                                      that the verses I posted to back up that Statement is wrong,
                                                      and as I didn't interpret anything; then my teaching can not
                                                      be wrong until someone proves anything about it is wrong.


                                                      TIM H:
                                                      When you make a statement or statements of your belief and
                                                      then you post a bunch of Scripture as though it supports
                                                      your belief, that does not prove anything, because it is,
                                                      indeed, a matter of interpretation. So, just because you
                                                      happen to read the verses you cited in a certain way and
                                                      get a particular meaning from them does not prove that you
                                                      are correct in your understanding and it does not support
                                                      your belief just because you posted them.


                                                      > Eric:
                                                      > Stating something without evidence and or proof does not
                                                      prove anyone elses statements or interpretation is wrong.


                                                      TIM H:
                                                      I could provide plenty of Biblical evidence, but I know from
                                                      dealing with you in the past that it would be futile, so I
                                                      chose not to make any attempt to engage you in a detailed
                                                      discussion. I simply responded to your intrusive accusations
                                                      that what I posted was in error by stating that your teaching
                                                      is in error.


                                                      > Eric:
                                                      > To prove something wrong someone has to prove something
                                                      > stated or interpreted is not true backed up with actual
                                                      > evidence of that.


                                                      TIM H:
                                                      I completely agree, but I already know that you are not
                                                      open to any other interpretation of Scripture that differs
                                                      from your own, so I chose not to waste my time.


                                                      > Eric:
                                                      > No evidence then it is only an opinion and can be disregarded.
                                                      >
                                                      > Eric Alan Marx
                                                      > red_1106@...


                                                      TIM H:
                                                      The truth is that faith is, in fact, a matter of opinion.
                                                      What you have chosen to believe from your reading of the
                                                      Bible and what I have chosen to believe and what everyone
                                                      has chosen to believe from reading Scripture is just that:
                                                      a matter of opinion. Evidence to one is not necessarily
                                                      evidence to another. What you see as evidence in Scripture
                                                      can be understood quite differently by someone else and there
                                                      is absolutely no guarantee that your understanding of the
                                                      evidence is anymore correct than anyone else's understanding.
                                                      As always, it is a matter of interpretation. You believe my
                                                      interpretation is wrong, and I believe your interpretation
                                                      is wrong, so let's just leave it at that.

                                                      So, yes, please do us both a favor and disregard anything
                                                      that I post in the future instead of jumping into one of
                                                      my posts and making false accusations. Thank you.

                                                      In Christ,
                                                      Tim H


                                                      > > Tim H wrote:
                                                      > > Hi Eric, no, someone was not stating that Scripture
                                                      > > is wrong, but was stating that your interpretation
                                                      > > of Scripture is wrong, so your teaching is wrong...
                                                      > >
                                                      > > In Christ,
                                                      > > Tim H
                                                      > >
                                                      > > > Eric Alan Marx wrote:
                                                      > > > So I guess someone is stating that Scripture is wrong,
                                                      > > > because that is all that I was teaching.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Eric Alan Marx
                                                      > > > red_1106@
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > > Tim H wrote:
                                                      > > > > Hi Eric,
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > By the same token, I hope no one believes the false
                                                      > > > > teaching that Jesus is the Creator and is God, but
                                                      > > > > sadly, I know there are many who believe it such as
                                                      > > > > yourself and even teach it.
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > In Christ,
                                                      > > > > Tim H
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > > Eric Alan Marx wrote:
                                                      > > > > > It was stated, "But Jesus was never eternal like God is Eternal, since God had no beginning, but Jesus did. Jesus is now eternal since God raised him from the dead to live forever."
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > I sure hope someone does not believe what they just stated because it looks like someone is stating Jesus was created but the Bible states He is the Creator. Please read the beginning of John and other places in Scripture where it tells us that Jesus is the Creator and therefore was never created, because He is God.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > Isaiah 29:23
                                                      > > > > > Isaiah 40:28
                                                      > > > > > Isaiah 43:1
                                                      > > > > > Isaiah 43:15
                                                      > > > > > Isaiah 45:18
                                                      > > > > > Isaiah 54:5
                                                      > > > > > Mark 1:24
                                                      > > > > > John 1:1-3
                                                      > > > > > John 1:14
                                                      > > > > > John 5:36-47
                                                      > > > > > John 14:1-7
                                                      > > > > > Romans 1:25
                                                      > > > > > 1 Corinthians 8:6
                                                      > > > > > 1 Peter 4:19
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > "For when he sees his children, the work of My hands, in his midst, they shall set apart My Name, and set apart the Set-apart One of [Yaaqob], and fear the Elohim of [Yisrael]. (Isaiah 29:23 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > Did you not know? Have you not heard? The everlasting Elohim, [YHWH], the Creator of the ends of the earth, neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable. (Isaiah 40:28 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > But now, thus said [YHWH], your Creator, O [Yaaqob], and He who formed you, O [Yisrael], "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you. I have called you by your name, you are Mine. (Isaiah 43:1 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > "I am [YHWH], your Set-apart One, Creator of [Yisrael], your Sovereign." (Isaiah 43:15 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > For thus said [YHWH], Creator of the heavens, He is Elohim, Former of earth and its Maker, He established it, He did not create it to be empty, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am [YHWH], and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:18 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > "For your Maker is your husband, [YHWH] of hosts is His Name, and the Set-apart One of [Yisrael] is your Redeemer. He is called the Elohim of all the earth. (Isaiah 54:5 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > saying, "Ha! What have we to do with You, [Yeshua] of Natsareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are: the Set-apart One of Elohim!" (Mark 1:24 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim. He was in the beginning with Elohim. All came to be through Him, and without Him not even one came to be that came to be. (John 1:1-3 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > And the Word became flesh and pitched His tent among us, and we saw His esteem, esteem as of an only brought-forth of a father, complete in favour and truth. (John 1:14 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > "But I have a greater witness than that of [Yohanan], for the works that the Father gave Me to accomplish, the works that I do, bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. "And the Father who sent Me, He bore witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. "And you do not have His Word staying in you, because you do not believe Him whom He sent. "You search the Scriptures, because you think you possess everlasting life in them. And these are the ones that bear witness of Me. "But you do not desire to come to Me in order to possess life. "I do not receive esteem from men, but I know you, that you do not have the love of Elohim in you. "I have come in My Father's Name and you do not receive Me, if another comes in his own name, him you would receive. "How are you able to believe, when you are receiving esteem from one another, and the esteem that is from the only Elohim you do not seek? "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Mosheh, in whom you have set your expectation. "For if you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, since he wrote about Me. "But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My words?" (John 5:36-47 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > "Let not your heart be troubled. Believe in Elohim, believe also in Me. "In My Father's house are many staying places. And if not, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I shall come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, you might be too. "And where I go you know, and the way you know." T'oma said to Him, "Master, we do not know where You are going, and how are we able to know the way?" [Yeshua] said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father too. From now on you know Him, and have seen." (John 14:1-7 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > who changed the truth of Elohim into the falsehood, and worshipped and served what was created rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. [Amen]. (Romans 1:25 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > for us there is one Elohim, the Father, from whom all came and for whom we live, and one Master [Yeshua] Messiah, through whom all came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:6 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > So then, those who suffer according to the desire of Elohim should commit their lives to a trustworthy Creator, in doing good. (1 Peter 4:19 The Scriptures 1998+)
                                                      >
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