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Re: Satan in the NT

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  • John Hedrick
    Indeed Judy: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32 ... would be to ... in ... 10:19) ... Christians never ... rocks ...
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 1, 2008
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      Indeed Judy:

      "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
      John 8:32

      --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, Judy Hake <judy@...> wrote:
      >
      > Codex,
      >
      > Forgive me, but you are way too pleased with your ability to argue
      > this. But could
      > it be that you're dissecting the trees and missing the forest?
      >
      > I would think that if there WAS such a being as a devil, and if he
      > did have an army
      > of servants we think of as demons, then one of his favorite tricks
      would be to
      > convince people that he doesn't exist at all. If we don't believe
      in
      > his existence,
      > then we can never know about, let alone exercise, the power Jesus
      > gave us over him:
      >
      > "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions,
      > and over all the
      > power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you." (Luke
      10:19)
      >
      > Obviously it would be in Satan's best interest to make sure we
      Christians never
      > know about that authority.
      >
      > I hope you are at least willing to consider whether you could be
      > wrong. All your
      > words and arguments aren't going to change the truth.
      >
      > Best wishes,
      > Judy
      >
      > At 07:39 PM 9/21/2008, you wrote:
      > >As we have list all occurrances of "satan" in the Old Testament, we
      > >will do the same for the New. We will attempt to provide a literal
      > >interpretation to the use of the word.
      > >
      > >Mar 1:13 And he was in the wilderness forty days and was tested
      > >(peirazomenos) of Satan (the adversary), and was with the wild
      > >beasts, and the angels ministred unto him.
      > >
      > >Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest who cannot be touched with
      > >the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tested
      > >(pepeirasmenon) like as we are, without [committing] sin.
      > >
      > >Jam 1:14 But each person is testted (peirazetai) when he is lured
      > >and enticed by his own desire.
      > >Jam 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and
      > >sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
      > >
      > >Whoa! Could the temptation of Christ have been FIGURATIVE !!!!!!!!
      > >Could the Figure of Satan (the adversary, the lure of desire) be an
      > >allegory for the lust of the flesh? Look at the tests, turning
      rocks
      > >into bread, jumping off a high place and giving into the lust for
      > >power! All child's play for Jesus! Sounds like a parable!
      > >Funny the non-synoptic Gospel of John does not allow 40 days for
      any
      > >such allegorical temptation event!
      > >
      > >Luk 5:16 And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed.
      > >
      > >Perhaps Luke 5:16 inadvertantly preserves the original referrence
      of
      > >Jesus in the wilderness that the synoptics elaborated upon to
      present
      > >a moralistic object lesson!
      > >
      > >Mat 4:6 And saith unto him; If thou be the Son of God, cast thy
      self
      > >down: for it is written, he shall give his angels charge concerning
      > >thee, and upon their hands they shall hold thee up, lest at any
      time
      > >thou dash thy foot against a stone.
      > >
      > >An interesting fact in Matthew 4:6
      > >
      > >Mat 4:6 And saith unto him; If thou be the Son of God, cast thy
      self
      > >down: for it is written, he shall give his angels charge concerning
      > >thee, and upon their hands they shall hold thee up, lest at any
      time
      > >thou dash thy foot against a stone.
      > >
      > >it's citation of Psalms 91:11,12 is a letter for letter, word for
      > >word (in the exact order) transcription of the Old Greek OT text
      > >(LXX).
      > >
      > >Once again Matthew 4:4
      > >
      > >Mat 4:4 But Jesus answered an said, It is written, Man shall not
      live
      > >by bread alone, but by every word of God.
      > >
      > >is a letter for letter, word for word (in the exact order)
      > >transcription of Deuteronomy 8:3 from the Old Greek OT text (LXX).
      > >
      > >Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is
      > >written, 'You shall worship (proskuneseis) the LORD your God, and
      Him
      > >alone you shall serve.' "
      > >
      > >Deu 6:13 You shall fear (phobethese) the Lord your God, and Him
      only
      > >shall you serve; and you shall cleave to Him, and by His name you
      > >shall swear.
      > >
      > >Once again the citation of Deuteronomy 6:13 in Matthew 4:10 is a
      > >letter for letter, word for word (in the exact order) transcription
      > >of Deuteronomy 8:3 from the Old Greek OT text (LXX)except for an
      > >interesting fact: the reading of Deut 6:13 used in both Matthew and
      > >Luke use "proskuneseis" (worship) found in Codex Alex (LXX) rather
      > >than "phobethese" (fear) found in Codex Vat (LXX) and the others.
      > >
      > >Conclusion the temptation account is a moral object lesson built on
      > >direct citations of the Septuagint! It is also plausible that the
      > >temptation account in Matthew, Luke and Mark are elaborations of
      the
      > >brief reference in Luke 5:16.
      > >
      > >One must consider the account of John.
      > >
      > >Joh 2:1 And the third day (after his baptism) there was a marriage
      > >in Cana of *Galilee*; and the mother of Jesus was there:
      > >
      > >Perhaps, since John emphasizes the divine nature of the Word, a
      > >temptation of the mere human will would have been antithetical.
      > >
      > >Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day
      of
      > >temptation in the wilderness:
      > >
      > >Could the wilderness episode be merely an allegory?
      > >
      > >The rule of thumb is the more elaborate the less authentic.
      > >
      > >1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in *pleasure*, is dead while she
      liveth.
      > >1Ti 5:11 But refuse to enroll younger widows, for when their
      > >*passions* draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry
      > >1Ti 5:12 and so incur condemnation for having abandoned their
      former
      > >faith.
      > >1Ti 5:14 So I would have younger widows marry, bear children,
      manage
      > >their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander.
      > >1Ti 5:15 For some have already strayed after Satan.
      > >
      > >Could this "satan" be the desire of the carnal flesh that Paul is
      > >talking about?
      > >
      > >1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God,
      > >which in Judea are in Christ Jesus: for ye have suffered like
      things
      > >of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews:
      > >1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have
      > >persecuted us; and please not God, and are contrary to all men:
      > >1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles, that they might be
      > >saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath of God is come
      upon
      > >them to the uttermost.
      > >1Th 2:17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time,
      in
      > >presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your
      > >face with great desire.
      > >1Th 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once
      and
      > >again; but Satan hindred us.
      > >
      > >The Jews here can easily be seen as being an "adversary"!
      > >
      > >2Co 12:7 And by the superabundance of the revelations, that I not
      be
      > >made arrogant, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of
      > >Satan, that he might buffet me, that I not be made haughty.
      > >2Co 12:8 Beyond this I entreated the Lord three times, that it
      > >depart from me.
      > >2Co 12:9 And He said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My
      > >power is perfected in weakness. Therefore, I will rather gladly
      boast
      > >in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may overshadow me.
      > >
      > >Gal 4:14 and you did not despise my trial (peirasmon, test
      > >temptation) in my flesh nor disdained it, but you received me as an
      > >angel of God, as Christ Jesus.
      > >Gal 4:15 What then was your blessedness? For I testify to you that
      > >if you were able, plucking out your *eyes*, you would have given
      them
      > >to me.
      > >
      > >Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham,
      > >whom Satan (ho satanas/ the satan or the adversary) hath bound, lo,
      > >these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
      > >
      > >A figurative explaination of physical affliction?
      > >
      > >Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord,
      > >even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
      > >Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan (ton satanan/ the
      > >satan or the adversary) as lightning fall from heaven.
      > >
      > >I should think that Jesus is commenting on the loss of control of
      > >physical affliction over human flesh rather than any mythical
      > >personification of a metaphyical "fallen angel"!
      > >
      > >This is a start, more to come. Enough to question your tradition
      veiw
      > >of a Mythical personified Demi-god (fallen annointed cherub) of
      this
      > >world.
      >
    • oliswan
      The scriptures I have given prove that what you say is simply your mistaken opinion.Your failure to address them adequately reinforces that fact.   safswan.
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 4, 2008
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        The scriptures I have given prove that what you say is simply your mistaken opinion.Your failure to address them adequately reinforces that fact.
         
        safswan.

        --- On Mon, 9/29/08, codex_z <codex_z@...> wrote:
        From: codex_z <codex_z@...>
        Subject: [TruthorTradition] Re: Satan in the NT
        To: TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, September 29, 2008, 12:39 AM

        By the same token none of the passages addressed do not conclusively
        prove the existance of a duelistic evil god. They do not substantiate
        the reality of a rebellious fallen god named Lucifer, who was the
        annoited cherub that covereth! Who now manipulates mankind and the
        world in general! Your conclusions of a demonic entity that is the
        true God of this world are based on vauge figurative references and
        metaphor!

        Master of puppets! A mythology of ancient man that worshiped the
        various elements of nature as gods! Was molech, the fire god of
        gehenna, one of your mythical god entities?

        --- In TruthorTradition@ yahoogroups. com, oliswan <oliswan@... > wrote:
        >
        > Nothing that you have written disproves that the references to
        satan in the passages you address are not references to an entity.
        >  
        > safswan. 
        >
        > --- On Sun, 9/21/08, codex_z <codex_z@... > wrote:
        >
        > From: codex_z <codex_z@... >
        > Subject: [TruthorTradition] Satan in the NT
        > To: TruthorTradition@ yahoogroups. com
        > Date: Sunday, September 21, 2008, 8:39 PM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > As we have list all occurrances of "satan" in the Old Testament, we
        > will do the same for the New. We will attempt to provide a literal
        > interpretation to the use of the word.
        >
        > Mar 1:13 And he was in the wilderness forty days and was tested
        > (peirazomenos) of Satan (the adversary), and was with the wild
        > beasts, and the angels ministred unto him.
        >
        > Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest who cannot be touched with
        > the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tested
        > (pepeirasmenon) like as we are, without [committing] sin.
        >
        > Jam 1:14 But each person is testted (peirazetai) when he is lured
        > and enticed by his own desire.
        > Jam 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and
        > sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
        >
        > Whoa! Could the temptation of Christ have been FIGURATIVE !!!!!!!!
        > Could the Figure of Satan (the adversary, the lure of desire) be an
        > allegory for the lust of the flesh? Look at the tests, turning
        rocks
        > into bread, jumping off a high place and giving into the lust for
        > power! All child's play for Jesus! Sounds like a parable!
        > Funny the non-synoptic Gospel of John does not allow 40 days for
        any
        > such allegorical temptation event!
        >
        > Luk 5:16 And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed.
        >
        > Perhaps Luke 5:16 inadvertantly preserves the original referrence
        of
        > Jesus in the wilderness that the synoptics elaborated upon to
        present
        > a moralistic object lesson!
        >
        > Mat 4:6 And saith unto him; If thou be the Son of God, cast thy
        self
        > down: for it is written, he shall give his angels charge concerning
        > thee, and upon their hands they shall hold thee up, lest at any
        time
        > thou dash thy foot against a stone.
        >
        > An interesting fact in Matthew 4:6
        >
        > Mat 4:6 And saith unto him; If thou be the Son of God, cast thy
        self
        > down: for it is written, he shall give his angels charge concerning
        > thee, and upon their hands they shall hold thee up, lest at any
        time
        > thou dash thy foot against a stone.
        >
        > it's citation of Psalms 91:11,12 is a letter for letter, word for
        > word (in the exact order) transcription of the Old Greek OT text
        > (LXX).
        >
        > Once again Matthew 4:4
        >
        > Mat 4:4 But Jesus answered an said, It is written, Man shall not
        live
        > by bread alone, but by every word of God.
        >
        > is a letter for letter, word for word (in the exact order)
        > transcription of Deuteronomy 8:3 from the Old Greek OT text (LXX).
        >
        > Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is
        > written, 'You shall worship (proskuneseis) the LORD your God, and
        Him
        > alone you shall serve.' "
        >
        > Deu 6:13 You shall fear (phobethese) the Lord your God, and Him
        only
        > shall you serve; and you shall cleave to Him, and by His name you
        > shall swear.
        >
        > Once again the citation of Deuteronomy 6:13 in Matthew 4:10 is a
        > letter for letter, word for word (in the exact order) transcription
        > of Deuteronomy 8:3 from the Old Greek OT text (LXX)except for an
        > interesting fact: the reading of Deut 6:13 used in both Matthew and
        > Luke use "proskuneseis" (worship) found in Codex Alex (LXX) rather
        > than "phobethese" (fear) found in Codex Vat (LXX) and the others.
        >
        > Conclusion the temptation account is a moral object lesson built on
        > direct citations of the Septuagint! It is also plausible that the
        > temptation account in Matthew, Luke and Mark are elaborations of
        the
        > brief reference in Luke 5:16.
        >
        > One must consider the account of John.
        >
        > Joh 2:1 And the third day (after his baptism) there was a marriage
        > in Cana of *Galilee*; and the mother of Jesus was there:
        >
        > Perhaps, since John emphasizes the divine nature of the Word, a
        > temptation of the mere human will would have been antithetical.
        >
        > Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day
        of
        > temptation in the wilderness:
        >
        > Could the wilderness episode be merely an allegory?
        >
        > The rule of thumb is the more elaborate the less authentic.
        >
        > 1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in *pleasure*, is dead while she liveth.
        > 1Ti 5:11 But refuse to enroll younger widows, for when their
        > *passions* draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry
        > 1Ti 5:12 and so incur condemnation for having abandoned their
        former
        > faith.
        > 1Ti 5:14 So I would have younger widows marry, bear children,
        manage
        > their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander.
        > 1Ti 5:15 For some have already strayed after Satan.
        >
        > Could this "satan" be the desire of the carnal flesh that Paul is
        > talking about?
        >
        > 1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God,
        > which in Judea are in Christ Jesus: for ye have suffered like
        things
        > of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews:
        > 1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have
        > persecuted us; and please not God, and are contrary to all men:
        > 1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles, that they might be
        > saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath of God is come
        upon
        > them to the uttermost.
        > 1Th 2:17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time,
        in
        > presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your
        > face with great desire.
        > 1Th 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once
        and
        > again; but Satan hindred us.
        >
        > The Jews here can easily be seen as being an "adversary"!
        >
        > 2Co 12:7 And by the superabundance of the revelations, that I not
        be
        > made arrogant, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of
        > Satan, that he might buffet me, that I not be made haughty.
        > 2Co 12:8 Beyond this I entreated the Lord three times, that it
        > depart from me.
        > 2Co 12:9 And He said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My
        > power is perfected in weakness. Therefore, I will rather gladly
        boast
        > in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may overshadow me.
        >
        > Gal 4:14 and you did not despise my trial (peirasmon, test
        > temptation) in my flesh nor disdained it, but you received me as an
        > angel of God, as Christ Jesus.
        > Gal 4:15 What then was your blessedness? For I testify to you that
        > if you were able, plucking out your *eyes*, you would have given
        them
        > to me.
        >
        > Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham,
        > whom Satan (ho satanas/ the satan or the adversary) hath bound, lo,
        > these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
        >
        > A figurative explaination of physical affliction?
        >
        > Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord,
        > even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
        > Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan (ton satanan/ the
        > satan or the adversary) as lightning fall from heaven.
        >
        > I should think that Jesus is commenting on the loss of control of
        > physical affliction over human flesh rather than any mythical
        > personification of a metaphyical "fallen angel"!
        >
        > This is a start, more to come. Enough to question your tradition
        veiw
        > of a Mythical personified Demi-god (fallen annointed cherub) of
        this
        > world.
        >


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