Re: The Trinity And The Torah
Sea wrote: You don't observe the law Norman. You disregard it. You transgress it by your own admission. So you don't get to question me on how I observe it.
Yes, Sea, I transgress God's law. I do no discard it. I try to obey it. Since, we are in a discussion group I do not believe it is out of order to ask you if you ever break God's law and if you ever break the law, does the law condemn you. If you do sin and transgression of the law kills you, how can you be saved?
If this is a subject you do not want to discuss, that is fine. However, if you would like to share that with me (without any sarcasm), I am interested as to how you believe that your sin (you have not admitted that you do have sin; however, you have not told me that you never sin) is viewed by God.
I have, in the past, quoted some preachers on grace and I do not know what you believe about grace.
Not a direct quote (I did not look up the quote again), but this is the idea of the two preachers. Grace is not a condition that you live in; it removes your past sins, it says nothing about how you live from then on. My interpretation of that is when you were baptized, all your sins were taken away and your are on you own to keep the law in the future. The other preacher said it like this: You can keep God's law, you may not be able to keep it perfectly at the beginning; however, after awhile you can start keeping it. I am assuming that grace covers the sins of those who are committed to keeping the law, but have not reached perfection. Grace is justifying them while the law is killing them.
Do you agree with both or either of the definition of law keeping and grace? Am I misunderstanding what they are saying?
What is your interpretation of scriptures about grace?
8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
1 John 1:1-2:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete.
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Eph 2:1-10 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29 Is God the God of Jews only?
Rom 11:5-6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. NIV
Some manuscripts. But if by works, then it is no longer grace; if it were, work would no longer be grace.
Sea, it seems to me that salvation is by grace ONLY cannot be mixed with works. It is not one plus the other, it is one OR the other. I do not believe salvation is by faith only and a mental acceptance of Jesus equals irrevocable salvation. I believe that is a misuse of grace.
In my growing up years, we taught that you worked your way up the ladder by keeping God's laws; however, we realized that we fall short and have sins; therefore, we had a works, grace salvation.
When one of our preachers was asked, "how much of your salvation do you attribute to works and how much to grace?" The answer was about 95% works and 5% grace. (that is what I believed and taught for many yrars) If I understand the teaching of the NT that is impossible. When we take on salvation by keeping the law, grace is cancelled. When we sin, grace is not there to redeem us.
That seems to be what you teach and what others that claim that law keeping saves you. You (they) recognize that their only hope (something to redeem them when they fall short) is the grace of God; however, they still claim that law keeping saves you. They deny that the purpose of the law is to penalize the breaker of the law and contend that the purpose of the law is to save. They believe it is an abomination to God to say the law condemns, but the law cannot save.
Again, the law is capable of saving. It is perfect. It saves everyone that keeps it. Romans 8 tells us why the law never saved anyone, they did not keep it. The law was weakened by the sinful nature.
If you would like to explain to me how grace and keeping of the laws saves, I would like to know.
If you want to drop the subject, I respect that and I appreciate your time and effort.
Norman Wrote previously: What do you believe I mean when I say I do not keep the law?
Sea: This is a dumb question. Are you expecting me to read your mind and guess which laws you do keep and which you don't? That is not my job. You know what you mean. The only law I can be sure that you don't keep is the fourth commandment. Apart from that I don't know nor is it my business.
Norman: How can you be sure that I do not keep the Sabbath? We have been through this before; it has already been established that a man-made law changes the day many Sabbath keepers calculate and keep their Sabbath. I keep one day out of every seven and I believe the only thing you know for sure is that I do not claim to keep the Sabbath.
You call me and other lawbreakers because we observe a man-made law that change the Sabbath by one day. My question is, why do those who claim to keep the Sabbath, observe a man-made law and change the Sabbath by one day, without breaking the law. It sound like the pot is calling the kittle black.
Norman your post is far too long and I have the flu so I will sign off here. We seem to be going around in circles anyway. It is not for me to guess at what you believe.
Norman: I do hope you are feeling better now. I have had the flu and it is no fun. I apologize for the long post and I understand how difficult to try concentrate when we feel bad.
Thank you for you comments and wishing you good health,