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Re: Tim-RE: Christ return

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  • Jim
    Re: [TruthorTradition] Re: Tim-RE: Christ return Hi Soj. I know you have pointed out what you believe, I wont say you are wrong when you say Paul was talking
    Message 1 of 152 , Dec 1, 2007

      Re: [TruthorTradition] Re: Tim-RE: Christ return

       

      Hi Soj.

          I know you have pointed out what you believe, I wont say you are wrong when you say Paul was talking about himself as under the law, I don't agree. He was making a case as under the law, and then under grace, according to the spirit..

       

      Jack

      sojourning <learningtorah2001@...> wrote:

      'Paul said it best, "That which I would do, I do not, that which I would not do I do." '

      I have pointed out  number of times that Paul was referring to when he was under the law. When he was yet carnal, or when he was still in the flesh, serving God in the flesh, as a Jew with that circumcision that was of the flesh. [ It is interesting to note that Paul said, "I am carnal," present tense.  Herein lies the difficulty of how to interpret this passage.  Paul is using the present tense not the past tense as he does in most of Romans 7.   Why does he do so?   It is because he is still at war with the flesh.  He later defines that in himself, "that is in my flesh dwells no good thing."  The simple explanation is the Paul is talking about "walking according to the flesh."  Though he as died to sin as he declares in ch 6, he must continue to war against the flesh and keep it under subjection expressed as "I die daily."  Our flesh still lives!   We must keep it on the cross at all times.  So, Paul is describing the righteousness of the flesh which is futile.   Only as one by constant decision, walks after the Spirit can one please God.  Therefore, the flesh is always there and at war with the Spirit.  When Paul say, "I am carnal" he is speaking of his flesh in which nothing good dwells.  ]  At that time he was held captive to a law contrary to God's law, and even though he delighted in God's law in his inward man, yet he was held captive by the sin dwelling in his members, bringing him into the captivity of sin and death. But now, being in Christ, this was no longer the case, he was now worshipping God in spirit, he had been made free from the law of sin and death. [ This is where he picks up in ch. 8.  Up to that time, he has been talking about pursuing righteousness himself in the flesh.  Now in ch. 8 he adds the missing dimension in ch. 7:  "walking after the Spirit."  This is where the warfare begins because, Gal 5:17-18 – "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."   But wait a minute!  Romans 6 says that we died in the flesh!  But here we see that the flesh still lives.  What could this mean?  Our baptism as taught in ch. 6 is a figurative death with Christ and a figurative resurrection to the newness of life with Christ all of which anticipates our actual death and actual resurrection just as Christ had done.  The death of the flesh is a "reckoning" not an actual death.  This is the "good fight of faith" that Paul talks about. ]

      To say of Paul that, that which he would do, he did not, that which he would not do he did, is to make Paul a liar. Saying this is saying that Paul had no control over himself, [ Well, yes and no.  The difference is whether Paul is walking according to the flesh (which he could do at any moment) or walking after the Spirit.  Whenever we sin we are walking after the flesh.  That is possible at every turn.  That is why vigilance is required to stay in the Spirit, always walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.  We can all revert or backslide at any time.  Until the flesh actually, literally dies there is warfare between the spirit and the flesh.  Gal 5:16 – "Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."   ]  its to say that he walked after the flesh and "not" after the spirit. But that is "not" what Paul said of himself. Paul says of himself, I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection, he said,  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me. So Christ is living in him, it is Christ living, not Paul, Paul is dead, Paul is crucified, so to say Paul didn't do that which he would, and that he did that which he would not, is to say the same of Christ.  [ Paul may well have sinned from time to time.  He may have let down his guard and failed to walk after the Spirit.  He, by his own admission was not yet perfected.  We know that Peter sinned the sin of hypocricy in Galatia for which Paul rebuked him publically.  Gal 2:17-20-- "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin ? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God." So, if I fall, I get up, ask for forgiveness, dust myself off and get back on the road to holiness.

      This is from an old post in another group.

      I started at verse 1 of Roman 2, Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O
      man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same,
      that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

      I couldn't help it, as I read that I thought of what I've heard a
      lot of Christians say. What many Christians seem to believe is
      because they now believe that Jesus is their savior and they are
      under his grace, they can commit sins and not be judged for them,
      but sinners committing the same sins, will be judged, because they
      do not have God's grace because they do not believe in Jesus.
      [ A brother can fall from grace and be restored by confession and repentance.  Gal 6:1-3 -- Brethren, if a man [ a brother in Christ ] is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.


      Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

      Reading these verses it sounds as though these Jews that Paul is
      referring to, believed they had some special favor with God. Because of the fact they were Jews, and had received the law, and the circumcision in the flesh, and probably because of the fact that they had Abraham as their father.

      Christians seem to think the same way, sinners are going to hell for
      their sin, but Christians are under grace and have been saved from
      hell, even though they keep on sinning.

       

      [ Jews were under the law of Moses.  Gentiles Ro 2:13-16 -- 13(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)


      I checked the NLT, I think it brings this across very well.

      You may be saying, "What terrible people you have been talking
      about!" But you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you
      say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning
      yourself, for you do these very same things.

      2 And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does
      such things. 3 Do you think that God will judge and condemn others
      for doing them and not judge you when you do them, too?

      4 Don't you realize how kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you?
      Or don't you care? Can't you see how kind he has been in giving you
      time to turn from your sin?

      5 But no, you won't listen. So you are storing up terrible
      punishment for yourself because of your stubbornness in refusing to turn from your sin.

      For there is going to come a day of judgment when God, the just
      judge of all the world, 6 will judge all people according to what
      they have done.

      7 He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is
      good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God
      offers.

      8 But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for
      themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds. 9
      There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on sinning-for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.

      Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: So this is Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, he says, God will render to
      every man, Jew and Gentile, according to his deeds.

      Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for
      glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

      So by patient well doing, actually it would prabably be better
      translated as good works,
      [ that is correct ] to them who, in patient continuance of
      good works, seek for glory and honour and incorruptibility, life
      eternal.

      Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the
      truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

      So if we do not "obey" the truth, but unrighteousness instead, then
      what we have to look forward to is indignation and wrath,
      tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of
      the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

      Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh
      good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

      So I don't know, maybe Paul never heard any good, by grace alone are ye saved, preachers, but he seems to think that our deeds, or works has a lot to do with our salvation. If we want eternal life, then we will obey the truth, we will in patient continuance of good works,
      seek for glory and honour and incorruptibility, life eternal.

      Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

      It doesn't sound as though Paul and Peter have heard the gospel of
      just believing that Jesus died for our sin is enough, they don't say
      anything about believing Jesus is God,
      [  oops ] they are saying we need to do right works, we need to be righteous according to God's standard of righteousness.

      Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish
      without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged
      by the law;

      So when God judges us, it is going to be according to his law. And
      it is going to be according to whether or not we were transgressors
      of his law. I'm beginning to see perish a little differently then I
      used to. One meaning the Blue Letter Bible gives is, (d) to declare
      that one must be put to death). Just going by some of the new ways
      I'm seeing things.....The wages of sin is death, there is no getting
      around this, and all have sinned, all must die. But God has made a
      way for us to die and go on living. We can now die with Christ, and
      we can be raised with Christ.
      [ that is correct – these bodies will die because of sin.  They just or God is a liar.  The secret revealed is we may be born again, resurrected to eternal life.  ]If we truly believe upon him then we
      will take up our cross and follow him. We will die with him, we will
      be buried with him, raised with him, and sit with him in the
      heavenly places. If we die with him, then the wages of sin have been
      paid, we will have passed from death to life. there is therefore now
      no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk "not"
      after the flesh, but after the spirit.
      [ Notice the "condition" of no condemnation!  It is our choice which way to follow at every moment.  There is no condemnation to those that walk after the Spirit.  However, if we choose to walk after the flesh, we do suffer condemnation and must confess the sin and repent. ]  So if we have not truly
      experienced what Paul is referring to, then there will still be
      judgment, but once we do experience it, then we will have been
      judged, and will have passed from death into life. In Jesus' death,
      by his coming in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin,
      condemned sin in the flesh. And because of this, the righteousness
      of the law can be fulfilled in those who walk after the spirit.

      So perish could just mean to die, die and then be raised to
      judgment. If we are truly in Christ, if we can come to that place,
      then we will not perish, we will not die, for we have already passed
      from death into life. And I now believe this is the first
      resurrection, all who have risen with Christ, and are with him at
      his appearing. Those who are already with Christ, already dead,
      their life being hid with Christ in God.

       

      1 Co 8:11-12

      11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish , for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

       

      One can be living and have perished.  To perish means to live in condemnation of sin.  It is to be separate from God.  But, thank God, one can be restored to live and commune with God again.  The ultimate perishing is having been judged and condemned to eternal separation from God.  Thus, perishing is being dead in sin.  Dead in sin that pre-figures eternal damnation.  We are warned to seek the Lord today, while He may be found, while we have time, before it is too late.

       

      All man are lost, (perished) and called to repentance.  Eph 2:1-2 -- And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins , 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world,

       

      Col 2:13-14

      13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

       

      2 Co 2:15-16

      15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. 16 To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life.

       


      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thevillagewell/message/5438



      --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, JACK HIGGINS <mourice65red@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Jim
      > "God demands rightiousness. Breaking God's law at any point involves transgression at every point." God knowing we would break the law, gave us a little wiggle room. Blood sacrifice for the remission of sin. The sacrifice is a condition of both the OC, and the NC. It is not we who declare ourselves rightious, it is God, who does this. When David transgressed the law, did God consider David to be unrightious, or his transgression, which he paid for? God has declaired many rightious, even knowing thay will transgress His commands. Thank God, if it was left up to me, I could never be rightious, sad truth is, I know I will sin according to the law, but I am not under the law, I am under grace. Don't misunderstand, I don't mean I will deliberatly go out to sin, it just happens. Paul said it best, "That which I would do, I do not, that which I would not do I do."
      >
      > Jack
      >
      > Jim yielded777@... wrote:
      >
      > 1 Jn 3:10-11 -- In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another,
      >
      > Jas 4:4
      > Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God .
      >
      > SIN
      > Since God demands righteousness, sin must be defined in terms of mankind's relation to God. Sin is thus the faithless rebellion of the creature against the just authority of his Creator. For this reason, breaking God's law at any point involves transgression at every point (Jas 2:10).
      > (from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, JACK HIGGINS mourice65red@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Jim
      > > Anytime anyone breakes the law of God he/she is not rejecting God, if they are God's children. King David, Moses, Sampson. they rejected God's command, without rejecting God. They all paid a price for there disobediance, as Jonah did. When we accept God by faith according to our free will, we also agree to accept any punishment He gives us for oue sake, as His children. We all at time disobey, as children will do, that does not mean we reject God, as our LORD, and Father. Punishment is part of guidence. Do you have children?
      > >
      > > Jack
      >
      > Lk 6:46 -- "But why do you call Me 'Lord , Lord,' and not do the things which I say?
      > Sin is rebellion. Rebellion is rejection of God.
      > Jim
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > > Jim yielded777@ wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Hey Jack, I can't join you in the speculation. I was only commenting
      > > on the account in the book of Job. As far as rejecting God, it all
      > > depends on how you interpret Jnh 1:3 "to go with them to Tarshish from
      > > the presence of the LORD. " I say it means that Job was making racks to
      > > escape God's will and I would say that if one rejects God's commands, he
      > > is rejecting God. Ps 138:2
      > > For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.
      > > NKJV
      > >
      > > Peace, my friend
      > >
      > > Jim
      > >
      > > --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, JACK HIGGINS mourice65red@
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi Jim
      > > > Could be that way, but, he-he. We don't know what the relationship was
      > > between God and Jonah before this story. This is only one event in the
      > > life of Jonah. Can we say this was the first time God called on Jonah?
      > > Perhaps this was the first time Jonah disagreed with the will of God. I
      > > don't recall saying that Jonah did not have his free will. I don't see
      > > that Jonah was rejecting God, only His request. I do agree it was pure
      > > and simple discipline. The fact that Jonah called out to God, indicates
      > > to me Jonah knew God before this happened. Knew that he could call on
      > > God even tho. he had made a fool of himself. If I recall the story,
      > > Jonah still showed his displeasure towards God's judgement toward the
      > > Ninavites. Jonah still loved God, even thought he did'nt like what he
      > > was doing, and had no problem trusting God enough to show that
      > > displeasure. Again I could be wrong.
      > > >
      > > > Jack
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Jim yielded777@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, JACK HIGGINS mourice65red@
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi Jim
      > > > > The way I see it, Jonah had already agreed to be lead by God,
      > > > according to God's will. So God was not interfearing with Jonah's free
      > > > will, as Jonah had alread exersized his free will. He had already made
      > > > his choise. God was leading Jonah. I could be wrong.
      > > > >
      > > > > Jack
      > > >
      > > > Jack, sounds like you have your facts wrong. Jonah refused obedience
      > > to
      > > > God's instruction right at the opening of the book. He boarded a ship
      > > > to escape the presence of God. It was then tht God arrested him in the
      > > > belly of the fish. Jonah still had his freewill but God made him an
      > > > offer he couldn't refuse. Jonah, out of his affliction cried out to
      > > God
      > > > for help. When God repeated His command to Jonah, Jonah was
      > > immediately
      > > > obedient. Pure and simple discipline.
      > > >
      > > > Jim
      > >

       

       

    • JACK HIGGINS
      Hi Jim Jim if one will always go back to the beginning, compairing all the other scriptures with the beginning, then the scriptures take on a whole new
      Message 152 of 152 , Jan 2, 2008
        Hi Jim
            Jim if one will always go back to the beginning, compairing all the other scriptures with the beginning, then the scriptures take on a whole new meaning. The beginning it's self takes on a whole new meaning. Maybe I should say understanding takes on a whole new meaning. Having faith in God, is not haveing faith in the flesh. Death takes on a whole new understanding. The scriptures tells us what God was telling us, when He breathed the breath of life in the body of man. When He made man in His image.
         
        Jack

        Jim <yielded777@...> wrote:
         
        Jack, just a thought along those lines:  Ezekiel made a distinction between those in the faith and those not in the faith.  Or, you could say between those in God and those not in God:
        Ezek 18:4
        4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
        ESV
        Ezek 18:5   "If a man is righteous and does what is just and right . . . . .  Ezek 18:9 . . . .he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord God.
        ESV
        Thus, my friend, your question "Ezek 18:4
        4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
        ESV
        Ezek 18:5
        5 "If a man is righteous and does what is just and right . . . . . . Ezek 18:9 . . . . he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord God.
        ESV

        Thus, Jack, you have asked a very astute question in asking, "can anything that is of God die?"   One man shall die, the other shall live and "never see death" and the other shall "surely die."
        Matt 10:28
        And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul . Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
        ESV
        The Bible is just too chuck full of affirmation of this principle for any conflicting point of view to explain away.  Praise God from whom all blessings flow.  We (who believe) shall never die, never.  Though this body may rot, we shall never see death.
        Jim
         

        --- In TruthorTradition@ yahoogroups. com, JACK HIGGINS <mourice65red@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Tim
        > I understand what you have been saying. Think of this, can anything that is of God die? I'm not talking about something from God, as in His creation, but something that is from God, and of God, as is spirit.
        >
        > Jack
        >
        > Tim H THardesty@.. . wrote:
        > Hi Jack, my comments below.
        >
        > > Jack wrote:
        > > Hi Tim
        > > I guess, according to what you believe
        > that leaves us out. As you believe we don't
        > have a spirit to confess that, "Jesus Christ
        > has come in the flesh." And if we have no
        > spirit, we can't be "Of God." :-)
        > >
        > > Jack
        >
        > TIM H:
        > Well, this is very disappointing. It seems
        > you have not correctly understood what I
        > have been saying. I have never said that
        > we do not have a spirit. What I've said
        > is that our spirit is not a separate entity
        > that can live independently without a body.
        >
        > In Christ,
        > Tim H
        >
        > > Tim H wrote:
        > > When Jesus came, things changed. Then
        > > it became a matter of believing that
        > > Jesus of Nazereth was, indeed, the true,
        > > prophesied Messiah of the OT, the son of
        > > God, and our Savior who died for our sins.
        > > That the true Messiah, Jesus Christ, the
        > > son God, finally arrived and fulfilled
        > > OT prophecy. Just as 1 John 4:2-3 says:
        > > "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every
        > > spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ
        > > is come in the flesh is of God: And every
        > > spirit that confesseth not that Jesus
        > > Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:
        > > and this is that spirit of antichrist.. ."
        > >
        > > Pedro
        > > Amen. I completely agree, For He is the son God.
        > >
        > > In the Christ
        > > Pedro
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------ --------- --------- ---
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        >


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