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Re: Christ's return

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  • Jim
    Jack, of course you can believe wha you want but you can t convince me that you re are correct in your beliefs without substantiation. Just saying that we are
    Message 1 of 167 , Nov 1, 2007
      Jack, of course you can believe wha you want but you can't convince me
      that you're are correct in your beliefs without substantiation. Just
      saying that we are Isrealites does not make us Iraelites. If we are
      Israelites then we are also Ishmaelites and Edomites and Greeks and
      Romans, and whatever.

      My point is that, let me put it this way, Gentiles are not Israelites.
      Abraham who was a Gentile was not even an Israelite himself so how can
      we be Israelites because of our faith connection as seed of Abraham?
      Abraham has three lines of descendants, Israelites (Jews,Israelites as
      the seed of promise), Ishmaelites (Arabs, as seed of the bondwoman), and
      Gentiles (no blood relaionship to Abraham, non-Israelites, seed only by
      faith). These were distinguishable and mutually exclusive grouops of
      people. One could not claim to be the other. It seems as if you're
      embracing something that may sound good to you but it is not estblaished
      in scripture that Genitles are Israelites.

      As a matter of fact that is why I quoted those texts. They show that
      one does not become the other as in Jews becoming Gentiles or Gentiles
      becoming Jews. The wall of separation and distinction was destroyed in
      Jesus flesh that there should be a "new creation' which is neither Jew
      nor Greek (Gentile). That specifically establishes that your saying
      that we are Israelites is in contradiction to the Biblicsl teaching.

      That's the point I'm making.

      Jim





      --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, JACK HIGGINS <mourice65red@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Hi Jim
      > (Nothing in scriptures that call us Israelites) Hebrew, Israelites,
      Jew. By any other name, a decendent of Abraham is a decendent of
      Abraham, according to the flesh, or according to faith. A Christian Jew,
      Israelite, Hebrew. A Christian Gentile, Greek, Roman, American. All by
      faith are decendents of Abraham. I don't understand your point.
      > I have used the same scriptures you quote below, and for the same
      purpose, the kingdom of God is not about nationality. The olive tree is
      the tree Paul used to represent the Jewish, Israelite, Hebrew nation.
      Saying that we Gentiles are grafted into that nation, or that tree.
      Pauls point as I see it, was to say we Gentiles should not look down on
      the Jews. Our faith is the faith of Abraham, and salvation by grace was
      offered to the Jews first. If I remember the thread was, Abraham was the
      first Christian. No where does the scriptures say Abraham was a
      Christian, or a Hebrew, or an Israelite, or a Jew. But the scriptures
      say he was the father of both.
      >
      > Jack
      >
      >
      > Jim yielded777@... wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Re: Christ's return
      >
      > Tim
      >
      > Sorry, You say that we are neither Jews nor Gentiles but new
      > creatures, yet here you say you are gentile,
      >
      > Maybe you can decide who you are?
      >
      > As for Abraham you rightly say that he is the first one to believe
      > in the MessiaH, yet you accept that he is anIsraelite but not a
      > Christian.
      >
      > The Israelites is a term which did not exist either during Abraham's
      > time so to say that he is the father of the Israeli nation as
      > opposed to the Christian nation is baloney.
      >
      > In the Christ
      >
      > Pedro
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, JACK HIGGINS
      > mourice65red@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Tim
      > > Jesus was an Israelite, a Jew, according to scripture a
      > decendent of Abraham. The very first to follow Christ were
      > Israelites. The New Covenant was offered to the Israelites first,
      > then the Gentiles. We Gentiles are Israelites, decendents of Abraham
      > by Faith. [ There's nothing in scripture that calls us Israelites.
      Abraham predates the establishment of Israel and certainly the birth of
      his grandson Jacob. Circumcision predates the nation of Israel.
      >
      > Ro 4:16 "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace,
      so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who
      are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who
      is the father of us all"
      >
      > Gal 3:26-29 -- For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ
      Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on
      Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor
      free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ
      Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and
      heirs according to the promise.
      >
      > Col 3:9-11 -- since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10
      and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the
      image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew,
      circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but
      Christ is all and in all.
      >
      > Jim
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > __________________________________________________
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    • JACK HIGGINS
      Hi Soj I lost track, did I answer this post? Jack sojourning wrote: Jack, Hi Soj (But only for Gentiles) Are you saying the Jews
      Message 167 of 167 , Nov 25, 2007
        Hi Soj
           I lost track, did I answer this post?
         
         
        Jack

        sojourning <learningtorah2001@...> wrote:
        Jack,
         
        Hi Soj
          (But only for Gentiles) Are you saying the Jews conciderer curcumsicion necessary only for Gentiles?
         
        You said, "They certanely did concider curcumsicion nescessary. Book of Acts."
         
        I guess that's what one gets when they read in a hurry and post in a rush. I said, "But only for Gentiles." I thought you were saying they "didn't" consider circumcision necessary, I misread, probably because that's what I'm used to reading and hearing from so many people.
         
        They did "not" consider circumcision necessary for Gentiles. But Jewish followers of the way continued in circumcision, they continued to circumcise their children.
         
        Act 21:17  And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. And the [day] following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
        Act 21:21  And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.
        Act 21:23  Do therefore this that we say to thee. . . .  . .and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
        Act 21:25  As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
         Works were a condition of the OC, Not so with the NC. We are lead by the Spirit within, not the law.
         
        If what you say is true, then why is so much emphasis put on works in the new covenat? What does Jesus say to the Churches in the Revelation? He says, I know your works. . . . Rev 2:1; 2:9; 2:13; 3:1. Paul says in Romans 2:6 that God will render to everyone according to their deeds/works. Paul says in Eph 2:10 for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. What works? The works that were before ordained that we should walk in them. Women are to adorn themselves with that which becometh a woman professing godliness, which is good works. A widow taken into the Church as a widow is to be at least 60, having been the wife of one man, and well reported of for good works. The rich are to do good, they are to be rich in good works. The man of God is to be perfect, thouroughly furnished unto all good works. Paul says, there are those who profess to know God, but in works they deny him, and unto every good work reprobate. Paul says, in all things show yourself a pattern of good works. Jesus gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity/lawlessnes s, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works (Titus 2:14). I will that thou affirm constantly (with constancy), that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.
         
        Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works. What does it profit though a man say he has faith, and has not works? can faith save him? (James 2:14)  Faith if it has not works , is dead, being alone. Abraham was justified by works, when he had offered Isaac, faith worked with Abraham's works, and by works faith was perfected. Abraham believed God, his belief is seen in his works, because he believed God, he also obeyed God. James 2:24 says, it is by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James says that Abraham had works, Jesus said that Abraham had works. Jesus said, if you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. Rev 2:23 Jesus says, I am he who searches the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Jesus says to some, I have not found your works perfect before God. The dead are judged out of those things which are written in the books, according to their works.        
         
         
          God is no respector of nationality, To say Gentiles are grafted in is to say that some of God children are an after thought.
         
        Then are you disagreeing with what Paul taught? He says Gentiles were being grafted in. God is not a respecter of nationality, but what else does the Bible say? Those of every nation who fear God, and work righteousness are accepted of God. So when Peter said this, what do you believe he meant by working righteousness? Paul says, there is no respect of persons with God, For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just/righteous before God, but the "doers" of the law shall be justified/made righteous. For when the Gentiles, Who!? It says the Gentiles, who have not the law. They do not have the written law, the law was not given to them as it was to Israel, but when the Gentiles who have not the law, do by nature the things contained int he law, these having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Who "show" the "work" of the law written in their hearts. So God is not a respecter of persons or nations, for in every nation those who work righteousness are accepted of him, if a Jew is a doer of the law, then he is accepted of God, and it is the same with the Gentile, a Gentile who is a doer of the law shall also be justified/righteous fied. 
         
        Jesus came for the world, not just the house of Judah, or the House of Israel. As I see it the NC was ment for the world, anyone who would accept it. "For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son" The House of Israel was just the beginning.
         
        Yes, but why did he begin with Israel? Why did Jesus say salvation is of the Jews? Why did Paul say the Jews had much advantage over Gentiles, because unto them God had committed his oracles?
         
          The circumsicion was the seal of the OC, The seal of the NC, is the Holy Spirit.
         
        The seal of the new covenant is the holy spirit, but what is supposed to happen once we receive the spirit? We are to walk in the spirit. It too is a circumcision, a circumcision made without hands, it is a putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ.  So what was it that Paul said had once prevented him from keeping the law of God which he delighted in after the inward man? It was the sin dwelling in his flesh, there was another law in his members, a law contrary to God's law, and this law brought him into captivity, it prevented him from performing those things taught in God's law. He said he consented to the law that it was good, but in the flesh he could not fully live by God's law. But by putting off the body of sin, putting off the old man with his deeds, he had put on the new man. This new man was no longer held captive by the law of sin and death, he was now free to live by the law of God that he delighted in.   
         
        The OC was not perfect, that is the reason for the NC.
         
        But why was it not perfect? It was because of the weakness of the flesh. It was the people God found fault with, not the law, carnal people could not keep a spiritual law. So God said he would make a new covenant, he would put his law in their inward parts, he would write his law upon their hearts. So it wasn't God's law that God did away with, but the way the law is administerd. It is now through the spirit, Paul was a minister of the new covenant, not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant, also called the better covenant, it is by the spirit, but God said he would put his law in the inward parts. How does he put his law into the inward parts? It is by his spirit, by his spirit he writes his law upon the heart. It becomes nature, we recive divine nature, and this divine nature is what I believe Paul is speaking of when he speaks of Gentiles who have not the law, meaning written law, do by nature, divine nature, that which is contained in the law and show the work of the law written in their hearts.
         
         The OC depended on works of the law, judgement according to the law. The NC depends on works by the Holy Spirit within. Judgment is according to faith.
          According to the way Paul worded his statement, he did not consider himself himself Jew or Gentile. If I teach Jews, I become as a Jew. Paul taught that to put oneself under the law was death, for Jew and Gentile alike.
         
        But is there a law against not killing? Is there a law against being faithful to a spouse?  Is there a law against not coveting or not stealing? Paul taught the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace. . .  . .against such there is no law. So there is no law against love, but what is love? is it our definition? or is it God's definition? Paul also taught that the whole law was based on love, they who love have fulfilled the law, for this, you shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, or bear false witness, you shall not covet, and if there be any other commandment, such as to remember the Sabbath, it is covered by love. If we love God, we will keep his commandments, if we love our neighbor, we will keep God's commandments.
         
        Judgment according to faith? Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid.  
         
         
         
         Cuscumsicion dose not count for anything under the NC. If the Jew still wanted to be curcumsicion that was OK with Paul, so long as faith was in the spirit, and not the rituals of the flesh, and the law. Salvation does not come to us through the law, or the rituals of the law. Salvation is through Christ, and that is what Paul taught.
         
        Jack
         
        sojourning <learningtorah2001@ ...> wrote:
        Jack,
         
        Hi Soj
           (Know who is being addressed) That always helps
           (Address both male and female) That is the condition of the flesh, Spiritually there is no male or female.
           (Seed of Abraham) In the physical body, according to the lineage of the flesh, Abraham was an ancester of Jesus.
           (The apostles were Jews) Yes they were, and triditions die hard. I don't think they contuned to sacrifice for the remission of sin, but could be some did. They certanely did concider curcumsicion nescessary. Book of Acts.
         
        But only for Gentiles.
        --- In TruthorTradition@ yahoogroups. com, JACK HIGGINS <mourice65red@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Soj
        > (But only for Gentiles) Are you saying the Jews conciderer curcumsicion necessary only for Gentiles?
        > Works were a condition of the OC, Not so with the NC. We are lead by the Spirit within, not the law.
        > God is no respector of nationality, To say Gentiles are grafted in is to say that some of God children are an after thought. Jesus came for the world, not just the house of Judah, or the House of Israel. As I see it the NC was ment for the world, anyone who would accept it. "For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son" The House of Israel was just the beginning.
        > The circumsicion was the seal of the OC, The seal of the NC, is the Holy Spirit. The OC was not perfect, that is the reason for the NC. The OC depended on works of the law, judgement according to the law. The NC depends on works by the Holy Spirit within. Judgment is according to faith.
        > According to the way Paul worded his statement, he did not consider himself himself Jew or Gentile. If I teach Jews, I become as a Jew. Paul taught that to put oneself under the law was death, for Jew and Gentile alike. Cuscumsicion dose not count for anything under the NC. If the Jew still wanted to be curcumsicion that was OK with Paul, so long as faith was in the spirit, and not the rituals of the flesh, and the law. Salvation does not come to us through the law, or the rituals of the law. Salvation is through Christ, and that is what Paul taught.
        >
        > Jack
        >
        > sojourning learningtorah2001@ ... wrote:
        > Jack,
        >
        > Hi Soj
        > (Know who is being addressed) That always helps
        > (Address both male and female) That is the condition of the flesh, Spiritually there is no male or female.
        > (Seed of Abraham) In the physical body, according to the lineage of the flesh, Abraham was an ancester of Jesus.
        > (The apostles were Jews) Yes they were, and triditions die hard. I don't think they contuned to sacrifice for the remission of sin, but could be some did. They certanely did concider curcumsicion nescessary. Book of Acts.
        >
        > But only for Gentiles.
        >
        > (How do we know Abraham had faith) I don't know about we, I know because the bible tells me so.
        > Romans11
        > Galatians 3
        > Hebrews 11
        > James 2
        >
        > Abraham believed God and obeyed his voice. Jesus told some Jews that if they were truly the seed of Abraham, then they would do the works of Abraham. Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Faith worked with his works, and by works was faith made perfect.
        >
        > (No Covenant made with Gentiles)
        > Abraham was a Gentile
        >
        > The covenant was made to Abraham and his seed, not him alone. A covenant was made with Israel through Moses. The new covenant was made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel, Gentiles were being grafted into the covenant made with them.
        >
        > (Which Jews clung to rituals)
        > Circumcision is a ritual of the OC.
        >
        > No, I don't believe circumcision was not actually a ritual, it was for a token, a sign between God and Abraham.
        >
        > I believe it was Pedro who said today Christian Jews are circumsized for sanatary reasons, that was not the case back in the days of the early Christian Jew, like I said, customs die hard. Scriptures seem to bear that out.
        > As for the last part of your post, Paul was not under the law, but Grace. Paul kept the law according to faith in Christ. I have never said any different. I quoted scriptures that Paul said about himself. Are you teaching me what he ment, or telling me what you believe he ment?
        >
        > I've heard that scripture (1 Cirinthians 9: 19-22) used so much before, when Paul was with Jews he acted like a Jews, when he was with others, he acted like them. But I believe to take it this way would be to think that Paul was dishonest and deceiving. What I read in the book of Acts is that Paul continued in the ways taught in scripture his whole life. He had "never" done anything against the customs of the fathers, or against his people. He never taught that the Jews should not circumcise their children, and he never taught that the Jews should not keep the laws of Moses.
        >
        > He taught people to live by the spirit, but living by the spirit doesn't prevent one from living by the law, it frees us to live by the law. Only in the spirit can one truly live by the law. The carnal mind is enmity against God and against his holy law. And because the carnal mind is enmity agaisnt God it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
        >
        > Paul had been made free, he was no longer under the law of sin and death that dwelt in his members, he was free by the redeeming blood of Jesus to walk in all the righteousness of the law. Where before, only in his inward man could he delight in God's law, but because of the weakness of his flesh he could not perform that which he delighted in. But now he was no longer in the flesh, but in the spirit, the flesh was no longer there to hinder him from doing those things in which he delighted. For he had put off the old man with his deeds. He had put on the new man, he was living in newness of life.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Jack
        >
        > --- In TruthorTradition@ yahoogroups. com, JACK HIGGINS mourice65red@ wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Soj
        > > (Know who is being addressed) That always helps
        > > (Address both male and female) That is the condition of the flesh, Spiritually there is no male or female.
        > > (Seed of Abraham) In the physical body, according to the lineage of the flesh, Abraham was an ancester of Jesus.
        > > (The apostles were Jews) Yes they were, and triditions die hard. I don't think they contuned to sacrifice for the remission of sin, but could be some did. They certanely did concider curcumsicion nescessary. Book of Acts.
        > > (How do we know Abraham had faith) I don't know about we, I know because the bible tells me so.
        > > Romans11
        > > Galatians 3
        > > Hebrews 11
        > > James 2
        > > (No Covenant made with Gentiles)
        > > Abraham was a Gentile
        > > (Which Jews clung to rituals)
        > > Circumcision is a ritual of the OC. I believe it was Pedro who said today Christian Jews are circumsized for sanatary reasons, that was not the case back in the days of the early Christian Jew, like I said, customs die hard. Scriptures seem to bear that out.
        > > As for the last part of your post, Paul was not under the law, but Grace. Paul kept the law according to faith in Christ. I have never said any different. I quoted scriptures that Paul said about himself. Are you teaching me what he ment, or telling me what you believe he ment?
        > >
        > >
        > > Jack
        > >
        > >
        > > sojourning learningtorah2001@ wrote:
        > > Jack,
        > > Hi Soj
        > > When we talk about Jews, Gentiles, we talk about kingdoms of the world, of the flesh.
        > > When we read the Bible its best to know who is being addressed. When we read Paul's writings its best to know when he is writing to and of Jews and Israel, and when he is writing to and of Gentiles.
        > > God's kingdome is not of this world. "There is neither Jew, or Gentile, male or female.
        > > Why do the New Testament writers address both male and female, if there is neither male or female?
        > > When we talk about the seed of Abraham, we talk about the flesh. When we talk about Faith, we talk about that which is spiritual.
        > > Not sure what you mean, Jesus was the seed of Abraham, Paul calls him the "one" seed to whom the promises were to.
        > > Paul in the Book of Romans was addressing a mixed congrigation, both Jew and Gentile according to the flesh.
        > > Paul was usually addressing a mixed group. And it was the Jewish believers that had a knowledge of God, as Jesus said, we Jews worship what we know, salvation is of the Jews. Paul's prayer for the new Gentile believers coming into the faith, was that the God of the Lord Jesus the Christ would give unto the Gentile believers a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God, that their understanding would be enlightened. So Jesus said the Jews already had a knwledge of God, and Paul said the Jews had much advantage, they had profited much in that God had committed unto them his holy oracles, Stephen calls them God's lively oracles. So yes, it was a mixed congregation, Gentiles were being grafted in among the Israelites, Gentiles were becoming partakers of Israel's spiritual things. They were being brought into the covenant, into the new covenant, along with the promises that went with it.
        > > The Jew incorperated both Old Covenant, and New Covenant.
        > > Don't know what you mean here. The apsotles were Jews, they were ministers of the new covenant, able ministers, and "not" of the letter, but of the spirit, the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. Many Jews continued in the old covenant, rejecting the new, but many Jews also became a part of the new covenant.
        > > Paul was making a point, The New Covenant was made with the Jew first, and then the Gentiles, because for the most part, the Jews rejected it. This is the point he was making to the Gentiles. Using the flesh, to explane that we are included by Faith, because of faith. Abraham was the first to believe by faith, and it was counted as rightiousness.
        > > How do we know Abraham had faith?
        > > Faith according to the spirit, and not the flesh. What Paul was telling the Gentiles who looked according to the flesh, that the Jew were first, and the Gentiles second. Paul was talking about spiritual things useing the flesh to illestrate his point. And to the Jews he made the point that the Old Covenant had not been made with the Gentiles.
        > > No covenant had been made with Gentiles, the Gentiles were being made partakers of the new covenant God made with Israel by Jesus the Christ, by his blood.
        > > The Jews clung to the rituals of the OC, and tried to force them on the Gentiles.
        > > Which Jews clung to rituals? and what rituals? Some believeing Jews believed the Gentiles should be circumcised, but that was all settled at the council at Jerusalem. Gentiles had to live in a way that the believing Jews could fellowship/eat with them. Gentiles needed to be taught, and to learn, they needed a spirit of wisdom and revelation. So what was decided at the Jerusalem Council was only the necessary things required of the Gentiles, not to bring too much on them all at once, they still needed to learn and grow.
        > > One thing we should remember about Paul, he taught according to who he was teaching.
        > > 1 Cirinthians 9: 19- For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servent to all, that I might win the more. 20- and to the Jew I become as a Jew, that I might win Jews. to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law. 21- To those who are without law, as with out law (not being without law toeard God, but under law toward Christ,) that I might win those who are wothout law. 22- to the weak, I become as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, That I might by any means save some.
        > > So Paul became the servant to all, a servant to the Jews, a servant those under law, and to those without law, but as Paul says, not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ, he was also servant to the weak, but I'm sure Paul did not actually become weak. What else does Paul say? In Acts 28:17 Paul says he has committed "nothing" against the people (Jews), or the customs of their fathers. And read Acts 21, beginning with verse 20, there were thousnads of believing Jews, and they were all zealous of the law. But they had heard that Paul was teaching all the Jews which were among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. But Paul had not been teaching any such things, and he proved that he had not taught any such things, and that even he (Paul himself) walked orderly, and kept the law.
        > > So Paul kept the law, but after his conversion he kept the law in the same way Jesus kept the law, not by the letter, but by the spirit. The law had been put in his inward parts, it had been written upon his heart, he had put off the old man with his deeds and was walking in newness of life, resurrection life.


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