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Re: [TruthorTradition] Re: angels (Sea & Tad)

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  • Seawife
    I haven t ever thought of fire from your point of view Tim. It would make a good study and a great topic. Shabbat Shalom Sea ... From: Tim H
    Message 1 of 38 , Jun 30, 2006
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      I haven't ever thought of fire from your point of view Tim. It would make a
      good study and a great topic.

      Shabbat Shalom

      Sea

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Tim H" <THardesty@...>


      > Hi Sea & Tad, one brief comment below.
      >
      >
      >> Tad: what do you think about the existence (or not)
      > of angels? when we discussed Acts in our SS class a few
      > weeks ago, one of the guys was adamant that "angels" was
      > nothing more than a mistranslation, and that the Greek
      > word really just meant "messenger".
      >>
      >> Sea: In the Hebrew the word for angel simply means
      > messenger. Hence, the angel of the LORD that appeared
      > to Moses in the burning bush does not necessarily mean
      > a created winged spirit being. It simply means messenger
      > or representative. I believe it was Jesus who spoke to
      > Moses as YHVH's representative/spokesperson but when I
      > point out that the one in the burning bush was the Angel
      > of the LORD I get accused to calling Jesus nothing more
      > than a created angel.
      >>
      >> In the Greek one could not get much closer to the English
      > translation "angel" than the Greek word "angelos". The
      > author of Hebrews tells us very clearly that angels are
      > "ministering spirits". He likens them to flames of fire.
      > Of course one could, at a stretch, call human messengers
      > "ministering spirits" if one chose not to believe that
      > there are created spirit beings that serve God in the
      > heavenly temple and minister to his human creation. But
      > how does one relate them to flames of fire? Personally
      > I believe that there are spirit beings that are referred
      > to in the NT as angels. I believe these are the same as
      > the cherubs but have the office of ministering to humans.
      > Cherubs minister to the LORD and to Jesus. In psalms we
      > are told the cherubs are the chariots of the LORD and a
      > good Bible study leads me to conclude that the angels are
      > also the eyes of the LORD. I conclude that an angel can
      > allude to a human messenger or a divine messenger or a
      > ministering winged spirit being.
      >
      >
      > TIM H:
      > I believe that 'fire' is often used in Scripture to
      > symbolize 'truth'. It's the idea that fire [truth]
      > consumes and destroys everything that is 'not' the
      > truth, and fire [truth] also gives off the light of
      > truth that exposes everything that is not the truth,
      > i.e., things that are of 'darkness'.
      >
      > I believe that's why Deut 4:24 and Heb 12:29 says
      > "God is a consuming fire", with John 14:17; 15:26;
      > and 16:13 all referring to the Holy Spirit as the
      > "Spirit of Truth" and 1 John 1:5 saying "God is
      > Light, and in Him is no darkness at all."
      >
      > Of course, fire is also used literally as physical
      > fire, but in many instances if one reads a passage
      > and understands 'fire' as representing the Truth,
      > it makes a whole lot of sense...
      >
      > I just thought I would throw this in as an anecdote
      > to the discussion.
      >
      > Love in Christ
      > Tim H
      >
      >
      >> Tad: do you think angels attend to us daily,
      >> or regularly at all?
      >>
      >> Sea: I absolutely believe those who are in the Lord
      > are attended daily by these ministering spirits. Psalm 91
      > tells of some of the things these ministering spirits do
      > for us. At the risk of sounding delusional, I have seen
      > angels. Now I have gone and done it. Lost my credibility
      > as surely as if I had said I had been abducted by aliens
      > and was sending this post via a remote computer on the
      > mother ship.
      >>
      >>
      >> Tad: do you think each of us have a "guardian angel"
      > or something similar?
      >>
      >> Sea: I believe each of us who are in Christ has a
      > ministering spirit and this is the holy spirit that we
      > are told not to grieve. I think the term "guardian" may
      > not be totally accurate as bad things do happen to God's
      > people so if they guard us it is only to an extent. They
      > are not like "body guards" who take a bullet for us. I
      > think "guardian" is more of a church tradition than a Bible
      > truth. The psalm says "guide" not "guard" so I believe
      > they guide us into righteous living. But if they also
      > guard us it is according to God's will. Does any of
      > that make sense? I know what I am trying to say but it
      > doesn't seem to be coming out right.
      >>
      >> This is a good topic as I am sure we can have a good
      > discussion on whether the existence of angels as ministering
      > spirit beings is truth or merely myth based on tradition.
      >>
    • Seawife
      Taking on the form of humans to appear to people like Abraham and Lot as messengers does not mean they have all the reproductive attributes and hormones
      Message 38 of 38 , Jun 30, 2006
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        Taking on the form of humans to appear to people like Abraham and Lot as messengers does not mean they have all the reproductive attributes and hormones necessary for bearing offspring while in this form.  But if they do then the offspring would be human because the sperm would be human.  Also, appearing in the form of humans was done at the command of God and not of their own doing.  These guys were the good guys.  So on the other hand can the bad guys known as the evil angels appear as humans?  Yes I believe they can and do.  Can they create spirit sperm in their human form to produce half human half spirit offspring while pretending to be human?  Absolutely not because only God can create life. 
         
        Shabbat Shalom
         
        Sea
         
        ----- Original Message -----
         
        Can not angels take on a form of a human?

        Joe Gill <berean_joe@...> wrote:
        Of angels, yes, the writer of Hebrews declared that they are "all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation" [Heb. 1:14]. The word "angel" may sometimes refers to human agents (as in chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation), but far more often it is used to describe supernatural creatures.

        I think specifically of the instances where angels are described ministering even to Jesus [Mark 1:13; Luke 22:43], or the times Jesus spoke of these supernatural agents [Matt. 18:10, 22:30, 24:36, 26:53, Luke 16:22, 20:36, John 1:51].
        The word of God testifies to the existence of angels, cherubim, seraphim, devils: a host of supernatural creatures. Their origins are not described in detail... but fact of their being is not arguable. So if they exist, why couldn't you have seen one?

        And please don't be put off by my backing out of the room slowly...
        ;)
        - Berean Joe
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