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prayer to saints, was Re: Charles Chiniquy: The LORD's Faithful...

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  • christaboveallelse
    Very good point, Gary. In Christ, Marcy @};- ... deciples or exhalt them, the deciples made it clear where the power came from, and would not accept any
    Message 1 of 372 , Sep 1, 2005
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      Very good point, Gary.

      In Christ, Marcy @};-

      --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, Gary Mitchell
      <gmhasthevictory@y...> wrote:
      > Absolutely, I agree, but even then they did not "pray" to the
      deciples or exhalt them, the deciples made it clear where the "power"
      came from, and would not accept any "glory" for themselves, they made
      it very clear that it was not them it was God.
      >
      > bigya2005 <bigya@c...> wrote:ah yes, i see the difference you are
      referring to. yes, i've heard
      > people pray to the saints FOR the healing, rather than praying to
      > them to ASK them to help pray directly to God for the
      > healing...making it sound as if the person praying believes that
      the
      > saint himself/herself has the power to heal....so i can see your
      > consternation with this.
      >
      > of course, on the other hand, even the LIVING (on this earth)
      > disciples/apostles DID heal and even raise people from the dead
      > while down here. this power they had was NOT their own, but they
      > were acting as "conduits" (if you will) of the power of God.
      >
      > in Christ,
      >
      > tad
      >
      > --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, Gary Mitchell
      > <gmhasthevictory@y...> wrote:
      > > I understand...but they are you/they taught to pray to them for
      > healing? That is the difference that I would say most Christians
      > have with praying to anyone other than God.
      > >
      > > bigya2005 <bigya@c...> wrote:very good questions!
      > >
      > > as i know it, saints (esp. those who have been "determined" to be
      > > saints by the church) are seen as such as role models or mentors
      > for
      > > the faithful. i see it as similar to when Uncle Joe in my local
      > > church gets cancer. he makes it through the treatments and trials
      > of
      > > cancer. when he gets through it, he says his faith was tested and
      > > actually strengthened by the trials. Uncle Joe becomes a "point
      > man"
      > > or "mentor" for future folks in the church who get cancer. when
      > > someone gets cancer, the advice they are given is to "go talk to
      > > Uncle Joe. find out how he coped, how he strengthened his faith
      in
      > > Christ through the trials."
      > >
      > > such it is with the saints in heaven. in Hebrews 11 we see the
      > > great "by faith" chapter, followed by chapter 12 where we see
      > these
      > > folks now part of the "great cloud of witnesses" cheering us on
      in
      > > the great stadium. those in heaven seem to have an active role in
      > > seeing us into the kingdom.
      > >
      > > when faithful Uncle Joe dies, why would it not be good to study
      > his
      > > life, his example of how he followed Christ, and why not ask him
      > to
      > > pray for us?
      > >
      > > i still don't see how you equate "asking" someone to pray for us
      > is
      > > the same as putting that person BEFORE (or even equal to) God.
      > >
      > > additionally, i realize i certainly don't have a complete
      > > understanding of Catholic teaching on this subject, but i write
      > from
      > > what i know at this point. i can also say that i know there are
      > many
      > > Catholics (and Protestants as well) who don't know their own
      faith
      > > very well, so individuals are not always a great barometer of the
      > > official teachings of any particular denomination.
      > >
      > > in Christ,
      > >
      > > tad
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, Gary Mitchell
      > > <gmhasthevictory@y...> wrote:
      > > > If I have the wrong idea (and please correct me if I am wrong)
      > > about the Catholic view of Saints, then it comes from Catholics
      > that
      > > I have known and presently know. Praying to anyone but God,
      > > is "placing them before God", therefore certainly not manifesting
      > > the belief of them being just another human. Why would you pray
      > to
      > > another Human that has no power, no divinity, no glory, no
      wisdom,
      > > that is just common to man? Are there not Prayers to Saints for
      > > specific reasons, or specific results that the person praying is
      > > seeking from a Saint that was known to have certain affiliations
      > > with the situation? If I am wrong then I have been totally
      > mislead
      > > by the Catholics that I know and have known, and unfortunately
      for
      > > them so have they, and what are all the saints for, and why is it
      > > such an issue for the Catholic Church to ordain a person
      a "Saint"
      > > if they believe that they are just men/women?
      > > >
      > > > bigya2005 <bigya@c...> wrote:i think you must have the wrong
      > idea
      > > about Catholics and their view
      > > > of saints. as far as i know, Catholics know that ALL saints are
      > > > either men or women, no more, no less.
      > > >
      > > > as for the rest of your post about asking someone to pray for
      > you,
      > > i
      > > > couldn't agree more! : )
      > > >
      > > > so you believe that "adding" prayers together makes it more
      > > > effective? i think i agree with this as well.
      > > >
      > > > in Christ,
      > > >
      > > > tad
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, Gary Mitchell
      > > > <gmhasthevictory@y...> wrote:
      > > > > I mean elevating their status above mankind, as though they
      > were
      > > > more worthy, or that they were more specialy annointed or have
      a
      > > > more direct connection to the Father. Such as a "priest" or
      > > a "Dead
      > > > Saint. When I ask someone to pray for me, I ask them because I
      > > > personally know them, know that they are a God fearing and
      > obeying
      > > > person, and know that the prayers of the righteous availeth
      > much,
      > > > and that their prayers added to mine sometimes will make a
      > > > difference, because I believe in prayer.
      > > > >
      > > > > bigya2005 <bigya@c...> wrote:hey, you're getting the
      > interceding
      > > > part, so you're almost there.
      > > > > but what exactly do you mean by "exalt?"
      > > > >
      > > > > wouldn't you be "exalting" someone when you ask them to pray
      > > > instead
      > > > > of having someone else (maybe someone "less righteous", in
      > your
      > > > > mind) pray for you? how do YOU decide who to ask to pray for
      > you?
      > > > >
      > > > > in Christ,
      > > > >
      > > > > tad
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, Gary Mitchell
      > > > > <gmhasthevictory@y...> wrote:
      > > > > > I understand the concept of asking someone to pray for you
      > to
      > > > > interceed on your behalf, adding your prayer to theirs in
      > > > agreement,
      > > > > but thats it. No exhalting anyone above anyone else as we
      all
      > > > have
      > > > > a way to the Father thru Jesus Christ our intercessor.
      > > > > >
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    • Harry
      Hi, Tad! Too busy to be here a lot, so please accept apologies for the huge delay (the dame for others I hope to get to today. the point of the actual text was
      Message 372 of 372 , Dec 4, 2005
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        Hi, Tad!
        Too busy to be here a lot, so please accept apologies for the
        huge delay (the dame for others I hope to get to today.
        the point of the actual text was not to have a list that could
        be added to. This is especially true when and if Catholics and
        others try to use this passage to add deceased professed Christians
        who they choose to believe they pray to.
        There is nothing of that or like it in the chapter at all.
        Note Hebrews 11:39-12:1 (ESV):

        Vs. 39: "And all THESE, though commended through THEIR faith,
        did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something
        better for *us*, that apart from *us* THEY should not be made
        perfect."


        Please, Tad, read the passages. It SEPARATES the readers and
        writer, all 'saints'/Christians in the "us" FROM the list in Hebrews
        11:

        "us" and "their"/"they"

        To remember the pronouns and their importance is vital to
        properly understanding the text.
        That does give some textual evidence that the list is all
        inclusive of who constitutes the 'cloud'.
        There is certainly no way the passage of Hebrews 12:1 can
        justifiably be used as a way to justify praying to those deceased
        people the RCC calls 'saints', and similar things like this.

        12:1: "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud
        of WITNESSES, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which
        clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is
        set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our
        faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,
        despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne
        of God."

        The point of the verse on the 'cloud of witnesses' was to tie
        the chapter and those examples given together and bring home the
        point and progress to the rest.
        The "cloud" came after the list and details. These were given as
        examples and "all these" (11:39) consist as the "cloud of witnesses"
        (12:1) to faith for all others to read and draw from.
        The text does not say it should be an open list. It does not say
        it can or should be used as you, RCs, and others do.
        Chapter 11 is the 'introduction', so to speak, for Heb. 12:1.
        The "cloud" might even be called the 'conclusion', or something like
        that, to the examples and lessons in chapter 11.
        What does the text itself show and does not show, Tad?
        Thanks for sharing & look forward to hearing your thoughts.
        Take care.
        Harry


        -------------------
        Hi Harry,

        I do see your point, but don't see any scripture to back up the idea
        that the "cloud is closed."

        It seems to me that anyone in heaven, or at least deemed to have a
        faith which was proven by works, can and will be part of the great
        cloud. Of course, when Hebrews was written, it was written to "the
        Hebrews/Jews", so of course the writer is going to use holy examples
        that are familiar to the reader. additionally, the list doesn't
        include any "new testament saints" as it was being written at about
        the same time these newest saints were still living.

        it might be something like writing about some of our best dead
        presidents. of course, Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Roosevelt,
        even Reagan, but we wouldn't expect to see any mention of Ford,
        Carter, Bush, Clinton, or Bush (regardless of your personal feelings
        on any of these) because they are still here with us - as far as we
        know! : )

        in Christ,

        tad



        > --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, "Harry"
        <harry4health@y...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Tad,
        > > I've been so busy, that I am only getting to things now.
        > > the passage on "great cloud" is not there to have an open
        > cloud,
        > > and such. The gropup in chapter 11 are mentioned as THE cloud os
        > > witnesses. There is no openoing for future additions. The term
        is
        > > used to describe the group he listed in Hebrews 11, and for one
        o
        > > more textual reasons. The wqriter is grouping those mentioined
        to
        > > bring home his points. They certainl;y are not referring to RC
        > > sainthood, praying to them, etc. It is only in reference to
        their
        > > examples of faith, and laying aside:
        > >
        > > Hebrews 11:39-12:1 (ESV):
        > > And all THESE, though commended through THEIR faith, did not
        > receive
        > > what was promised, 40since God had provided something better for
        > us,
        > > that apart from us THEY should not be made perfect.
        > > "THEREFORE, since we are surrounded by [SURROUNDED- the group in
        > > chapter 11] *so great a cloud of witnesses*, let us ALSO lay
        aside
        > > every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run
        with
        > > endurance the race that is set before us".
        > >
        > > If any others are to be added, they would be only by NON-
        > textual
        > > extension. There is no textual allowance for it.
        > > Take care.
        > > Harry
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, "bigya2005"
        <bigya@c...>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi Harry!
        > > >
        > > > Last one before going to bed tonight...
        > > >
        > > > It seems to me that IF the "great cloud of witnesses" includes
        > the
        > > > OT saints (which i think most of us agree(?) and are mentioned
        > in
        > > > the chapter before), then why would not NT saints (meaning any
        > > > believer who has "died" from this earth since the New Covenant
        > was
        > > > initiated by Christ) also be part of this great cloud?
        > > >
        > > > i do not read the great cloud as being a closed club. it seems
        > to
        > > me
        > > > that WE will also join Moses and Abraham, and Noah, etc., as
        > well
        > > as
        > > > Peter, Paul, and Mary, Augustine, Francis, Luther, Calvin, and
        > who
        > > > knows who else in that same cloud someday.
        > > >
        > > > in Christ,
        > > >
        > > > tad
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In TruthorTradition@yahoogroups.com, "Harry"
        > > <harry4health@y...>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > > Tim, Tad & all,
        > > > > I agree with Tim. There is no textual justification for
        > believing
        > > > > that the "cloud of witnesses" were dead RC 'saints'.
        > > > > The context specifies them, and the words of the text gives
        uis
        > > > > material to so think:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hebrews 11:39-12:1a (NKJV):
        > > > > "And all THESE, *having* obtained [past tense-not future,
        dead,
        > > > > professing canonized RC 'saints'] a good testimony through
        > faith,
        > > > > did not receive the promise, God having provided something
        > better
        > > > > for us, that THEY should not be made perfect apart from us.
        > > > > 12:1- *Therefore* [that word means you NEED to see what came
        > > > > before what follows, so you know what it is 'there' 'for'-
        > > > > "*Therefore*"/so] we *also*, since we are surrounded by so
        > great
        > > a
        > > > > cloud of WITNESSES...".
        > > > >
        > > > > Those who are the "THESE" and "THEY" are those who came
        before
        > > > > Heb. 12:1. We MUST seek out the answer in Hebrews 11.
        > > > > These things do not help a Roman Catholic view of Hebrews
        12:1,
        > > > > but goes in the other direction, as far as I can see from
        what
        > I
        > > > > read.
        > > > > Tad, what do you think of these things?
        > > > > What about others here?
        > > > > Look forward to comments from Tad, Tim & others.
        > > > > Take care.
        > > > > Harry
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
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