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Re: [Beta_Unlimited] I need all of your adivce! PLEASE!

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  • Marta
    ... It s been several years since I ve studied grammar in a classroom situation, but here s my best (probably fairly un-eloquent saying. If you have a sentence
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 6, 2003
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      > I'm not sure I could really explain it (grammar is
      > more of an intuitional thing for me ;) ), but my
      > vote is for:
      >
      > > 1) I was able to take a class from Dr. Thompson,
      > who teaches Shelly
      > > and Keats.
      > > 2) I was able to take a class from the Dr.
      > Thompson who teaches
      > > Shelly and Keats.
      >
      > So let's see if I can actually explain why... hmm...
      > nope, sorry. Can't verbalize it. (Can somebody else
      > explain?)
      >

      It's been several years since I've studied grammar in
      a classroom situation, but here's my best (probably
      fairly un-eloquent saying.

      If you have a sentence with a clause that is
      unnecessary (i.e., the sentence's meaning is clear
      without the clause) then you set the clause off with
      commas; if the sentence is ambiguous without the
      clause, then you don't put in commas. An example. Say
      I have two sisters, Katy and Marie, both of whom have
      red hair. Now let's say we have the sentence:

      I asked my sister who has brown hair to take out the
      trash.

      In this scenario, I would punctuate it thus:

      I asked my sister, who has brown hair, to take out the
      trash.

      The phrase "who has brown hair" does nothing to
      clarify the sentence: both my sisters have brown hair,
      so the sentence is no less ambiguous with the phrase
      "who has brown hair" than without it. If, on the other
      hand, Marie has red hair, the sentence would be:

      I asked my sister who has brown hair to take out the
      trash.

      In this scenario the phrase "who has brown hair" is
      identifying Katy as the sister I asked to take out the
      trash, and thus is necessary to the sentence -- commas
      are then necessary.

      Now, to the case at hand. I'm copying it down here as
      much for my own convenience for the reader, so you and
      I don't have to scroll up to see what I'm talking
      about.

      > > 1) I was able to take a class from Dr. Thompson,
      > who teaches Shelly
      > > and Keats.
      > > 2) I was able to take a class from the Dr.
      > Thompson who teaches
      > > Shelly and Keats.
      >

      In sentence 1 there's nothing to indicate that there's
      more than one Dr. Thompson. The basic point of the
      sentence is that I am taking a class from Dr.
      Thompson, and the fact that he teaches Shelly and
      Keats is irrelevant to that point. Thus the clause
      "who teaches Shelly and Keats" is unnecessary to the
      sentence (the sentence is no more unambiguous for it
      being there).

      The second sentence, however, has "the Dr. Thompson".
      This suggests that there is another Dr. Thompson and
      we are identifying which one. We are identifying him
      based on the fact that he teaches Shelly and Keats.
      Therefore the phrase "who teaches Shelly and Keats" is
      necessary to cut down on ambiguousness, so you
      shouldn't use commas.

      Does this make sense?

      PS- Someone asked recently for a beta for a HP/LotR
      fanfic. I would be glad to do this, however, my time
      is a bit tight at the moment, so my turn-around time
      will be more like 3-5 days instead of my normal 1-3. I
      have read all the books in both series multiple times,
      am better at LotR minutiae than Potter, but also write
      fanfic myself, and as I have just proven (I hope) have
      a basic feel for grammar. Let me know if you're
      interested.

      PPS- Someone on this list (I believe it is this list)
      is beta-ing my fanfic "Lady of Gondor". I had promised
      to re-send the latest chapter but have not been able
      to as of yet -- will try to do so tomorrow. Bear with
      me, I have not forgotten about you!

      Marta

      =====
      The Lord of the Rings: A story of jewelry theft and the ensuing hand injuries. (Source unknown)

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    • Marta
      ... Not really. It suggests that there is another Dr. Thompson and you are selecting one and not the other. Ah, the intricacies of English. (That s sarcasm
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 6, 2003
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        --- LuckyCharm2410@... wrote:
        > Here's my question on this, why is there a "the" in
        > front of Dr. Thompson in
        > the second sentence. Wouldn't that be bad English as
        > it is?
        >
        > Getty
        >
        >

        Not really. It suggests that there is another Dr.
        Thompson and you are selecting one and not the other.

        Ah, the intricacies of English. (That's sarcasm
        there.)

        Marta

        =====
        The Lord of the Rings: A story of jewelry theft and the ensuing hand injuries. (Source unknown)

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      • Chrys B
        ... Not necessarily. Say there was more than one Dr. Thompson. Then you d have to differentiate between Dr. Thompsons, so you d perhaps say the Dr. Thompson
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 6, 2003
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          > Here's my question on this, why is there a "the" in front of Dr. Thompson in
          > the second sentence. Wouldn't that be bad English as it is?

          Not necessarily. Say there was more than one Dr. Thompson. Then you'd have to differentiate between Dr. Thompsons, so you'd perhaps say "the Dr. Thompson who..." in order to indicate which one you were talking about.

          ~Chrysanthemum~
          http://www15.brinkster.com/fleurdiabolique
          AIM: fleurdiabolique

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        • Abinikai
          Thanks everybody! (and yes, it is proper english, for there would be more then one Dr. Thompson). Well, after much debating and going to the almighty lord of
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 7, 2003
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            Thanks everybody! (and yes, it is proper english, for there would be more then one Dr. Thompson). Well, after much debating and going to the almighty lord of English, Mr. Landis, we found that WE ARE RIGHT! Whoo hoo! Beta'ers rule! Well, I have been recognized, and I have an "I am a Star" thingy on my shirt...but that was actually for the English Paper I wrote on poetry. *grin* Okay, g2g. Having a nervous breakdown about life, so I must go confer with best friend. But hey, you guys (and girls) brightened my day! We rock!

            Chrys B <chrysanthemum@...> wrote:
            > Here's my question on this, why is there a "the" in front of Dr. Thompson in
            > the second sentence. Wouldn't that be bad English as it is?

            Not necessarily. Say there was more than one Dr. Thompson. Then you'd have to differentiate between Dr. Thompsons, so you'd perhaps say "the Dr. Thompson who..." in order to indicate which one you were talking about.

            ~Chrysanthemum~
            http://www15.brinkster.com/fleurdiabolique
            AIM: fleurdiabolique

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