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Re: Pliny's wax

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  • David O.
    ... worked in aviation i can ... the drop of a hat. ... Hmmm. Took out my old (1970s) copy of The Hive and the Honey Bee: ...when wax is boiled without water
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 1, 2006
      --- In beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, "dickbeekeeper"
      <dickbeekeeper@y...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, ace <aceinthehole@d...> wrote:
      >
      > >Melting in aluminum will surely discolor your wax.
      >
      > probably even more likely using salt water. as someone who has
      worked in aviation i can
      > say from personal experience that salt water corrodes aluminum at
      the drop of a hat.
      >

      Hmmm. Took out my old (1970s) copy of The Hive and the Honey Bee:

      "...when wax is boiled without water beneath, discoloration occurs if
      the temperature exceeds 185F."

      "Do not heat beeswax in tanks composed of monel metal, iron (unless
      galvanized), zinc, brass, or copper, because this will result in
      discoloring the wax. No appreciable discoloration occurs in vessels
      of aluminum, nickel, tin, or stainless steel."

      I don't know what monel metal is, but you can google it up.

      "Beeswax produced in the United States does not bleach readily.
      Bleachable types are imported mainly from Brazil, Chile, Cuba, and
      Africa."

      So how are these foreign waxes different from U.S. wax?

      "Bleaching may be accomplished by solar radiation, chemicals,
      adsorption, or several methods in combination. In sun bleaching,
      beeswax is exposed as thin shavings in shallow pans with water.
      Bleaching chemicals include bichromates, permanganates, peroxides,
      and chlorine compounds. Bleaching by the adsorption method requires
      that diatomacesous earth or powdered charcoal be added to the molten
      wax. The mixture is agitated for several hours, and then forced
      through a filter press to remove all solid particles."

      You do have a copy of The Hive and the Honey Bee, right?

      No mention of salt water.
    • Paul Rowland
      Dick hit it on the head Marc. I don t even cook in Al, it discolors easily. I prefer stainless when cooking. And certainly when melting beeswax. The salt added
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 1, 2006
        Dick hit it on the head Marc. I don't even cook in Al, it discolors easily. I prefer stainless when cooking. And certainly when melting beeswax. The salt added to the chemical and physical breakdown of the Al. Use stainless only. I've seen some very interesting thoughts from Pliny on bees and waxe. Google on Pliny and Natural History. However, I have not found the article about boiling that I have seen ascribed to him. Good luck the second go round. Good comments by both David and Dick, thanks guys!

        On 2/1/06, David O. <kg6mvx@...> wrote:
        --- In beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, "dickbeekeeper"
        <dickbeekeeper@y...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, ace <aceinthehole@d...> wrote:
        >
        > >Melting in aluminum will surely discolor your wax.
        >
        > probably even more likely using salt water. as someone who has
        worked in aviation i can
        > say from personal experience that salt water corrodes aluminum at
        the drop of a hat.
        >

        Hmmm. Took out my old (1970s) copy of The Hive and the Honey Bee:

        "...when wax is boiled without water beneath, discoloration occurs if
        the temperature exceeds 185F."

        "Do not  heat beeswax in tanks composed of monel metal, iron (unless
        galvanized), zinc, brass, or copper, because this will result in
        discoloring the wax. No appreciable discoloration occurs in vessels
        of aluminum, nickel, tin, or stainless steel."

        I don't know what monel metal is, but you can google it up.

        "Beeswax produced in the United States does not bleach readily.
        Bleachable types are imported mainly from Brazil, Chile, Cuba, and
        Africa."

        So how are these foreign waxes different from U.S. wax?

        "Bleaching may be accomplished by solar radiation, chemicals,
        adsorption, or several methods in combination. In sun bleaching,
        beeswax is exposed as thin shavings in shallow pans with water.
        Bleaching chemicals include bichromates, permanganates, peroxides,
        and chlorine compounds. Bleaching by the adsorption method requires
        that diatomacesous earth or powdered charcoal be added to the molten
        wax. The mixture is agitated for several hours, and then forced
        through a filter press to remove all solid particles."

        You do have a copy of The Hive and the Honey Bee, right?

        No mention of salt water.






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      • D.O.
        Can you support this statement, Ace? It conflicts with the statement that I quoted from The Hive and the Honey Bee: No appreciable discoloration occurs in
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 2, 2006
          Can you support this statement, Ace? It conflicts with
          the statement that I quoted from The Hive and the
          Honey Bee:

          "No appreciable discoloration occurs in vessels
          of aluminum, nickel, tin, or stainless steel."

          --- ace <aceinthehole@...> wrote:

          > Therein lies your problem marc. Beeswax should
          > never touch anything but tin or stainless steel.
          > Melting in aluminum will surely discolor your wax.
          >
          > ace
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: marc sepesh
          > To: beekeeping@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 5:36 AM
          > Subject: Re: [beekeeping] Re: Pliny's wax
          >
          >
          > The wax was boiled in an aluminum pan.
          >
          > Marc
          >
          > dickbeekeeper <dickbeekeeper@...> wrote:
          > --- In beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, marc sepesh
          > <sepeshyz@y...> wrote:
          >
          > >... not only was it several shades darker than
          > before but it had turned a sickly shade of
          > green...
          >
          > from the container, maybe? what type of
          > container was used?
          >
          > Regards,
          > Dick Allen
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Paul Rowland
          I doubt if any of us are accomplished metalugists. However, certain metals and alloys of metals, stainless in particular, have more or less reactive
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 2, 2006
            I doubt if any of us are accomplished metalugists. However, certain metals and alloys of metals, stainless in particular, have more or less reactive properties. You know gold is at the top of the list, silver is also but those are cost prohibitve. I find it hard to believe that they would include Al, what's the date on that? You can't get nickel containers only nickel alloy, that would include stainless, and tin will rust. Choose stainless. Normally a good alloy of Al would be ok, however introduce salt and that's another issue.

            On 2/2/06, D.O. <kg6mvx@...> wrote:

            Can you support this statement, Ace? It conflicts with
            the statement that I quoted from The Hive and the
            Honey Bee:

            "No appreciable discoloration occurs in vessels
            of aluminum, nickel, tin, or stainless steel."

            --- ace < aceinthehole@...> wrote:

            > Therein lies your problem marc.  Beeswax should
            > never touch anything but tin or stainless steel.
            > Melting in aluminum will surely discolor your wax.
            >
            > ace
            >   ----- Original Message -----
            >   From: marc sepesh
            >   To: beekeeping@yahoogroups.com
            >   Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 5:36 AM
            >   Subject: Re: [beekeeping] Re: Pliny's wax
            >
            >
            >   The wax was boiled in an aluminum pan.
            >
            >   Marc
            >
            >   dickbeekeeper < dickbeekeeper@...> wrote:
            >     --- In beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, marc sepesh
            > <sepeshyz@y...> wrote:
            >
            >     >... not only was it several shades darker than
            > before but it had turned a sickly shade of
            >     green...
            >
            >     from the container, maybe? what type of
            > container was used?
            >
            >     Regards,
            >     Dick Allen
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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          • ace
            according to Richard Taylor (the wax guru), one should never use alluminum,,,,thats all I know. ace ... From: D.O. To:
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 2, 2006
              according to Richard Taylor (the wax guru), one should never use
              alluminum,,,,thats all I know.

              ace
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "D.O." <kg6mvx@...>
              To: <beekeeping@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 4:55 AM
              Subject: Re: [beekeeping] Re: Pliny's wax


              >
              > Can you support this statement, Ace? It conflicts with
              > the statement that I quoted from The Hive and the
              > Honey Bee:
              >
              > "No appreciable discoloration occurs in vessels
              > of aluminum, nickel, tin, or stainless steel."
              >
              > --- ace <aceinthehole@...> wrote:
              >
              >> Therein lies your problem marc. Beeswax should
              >> never touch anything but tin or stainless steel.
              >> Melting in aluminum will surely discolor your wax.
              >>
              >> ace
              >> ----- Original Message -----
              >> From: marc sepesh
              >> To: beekeeping@yahoogroups.com
              >> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 5:36 AM
              >> Subject: Re: [beekeeping] Re: Pliny's wax
              >>
              >>
              >> The wax was boiled in an aluminum pan.
              >>
              >> Marc
              >>
              >> dickbeekeeper <dickbeekeeper@...> wrote:
              >> --- In beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, marc sepesh
              >> <sepeshyz@y...> wrote:
              >>
              >> >... not only was it several shades darker than
              >> before but it had turned a sickly shade of
              >> green...
              >>
              >> from the container, maybe? what type of
              >> container was used?
              >>
              >> Regards,
              >> Dick Allen
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >> Bring words and photos together (easily) with
              >> PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
              >>
              >> SPONSORED LINKS Beekeeping Beekeeping supplies
              >> Beekeeping equipment
              >>
              >>
              >>
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >>
              >> a.. Visit your group "beekeeping" on the web.
              >>
              >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
              >> email to:
              >> beekeeping-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >>
              >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
              >> Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
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            • marc sepesh
              I looked through all chapters in Pliny s Natural History that mentioned bees and beeswax or artists materials and didn t find any mention of bleaching
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 3, 2006
                I looked through all chapters in Pliny's Natural History that mentioned bees and beeswax or artists' materials and didn't find any mention of bleaching beeswax.
                Possibly the story's apocryphal.
                 
                I'll most likely wait for warmer weather to sun bleach the wax.
                 
                Thanks for all the suggestions!
                 
                regards,
                Marc
                Cape Cod
                 


                Paul Rowland <honeybeekeeper@...> wrote:
                Dick hit it on the head Marc. I don't even cook in Al, it discolors easily. I prefer stainless when cooking. And certainly when melting beeswax. The salt added to the chemical and physical breakdown of the Al. Use stainless only. I've seen some very interesting thoughts from Pliny on bees and waxe. Google on Pliny and Natural History. However, I have not found the article about boiling that I have seen ascribed to him. Good luck the second go round. Good comments by both David and Dick, thanks guys!

                On 2/1/06, David O. <kg6mvx@...> wrote:
                --- In beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, "dickbeekeeper"
                <dickbeekeeper@y...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, ace <aceinthehole@d...> wrote:
                >
                > >Melting in aluminum will surely discolor your wax.
                >
                > probably even more likely using salt water. as someone who has
                worked in aviation i can
                > say from personal experience that salt water corrodes aluminum at
                the drop of a hat.
                >

                Hmmm. Took out my old (1970s) copy of The Hive and the Honey Bee:

                "...when wax is boiled without water beneath, discoloration occurs if
                the temperature exceeds 185F."

                "Do not  heat beeswax in tanks composed of monel metal, iron (unless
                galvanized), zinc, brass, or copper, because this will result in
                discoloring the wax. No appreciable discoloration occurs in vessels
                of aluminum, nickel, tin, or stainless steel."

                I don't know what monel metal is, but you can google it up.

                "Beeswax produced in the United States does not bleach readily.
                Bleachable types are imported mainly from Brazil, Chile, Cuba, and
                Africa."

                So how are these foreign waxes different from U.S. wax?

                "Bleaching may be accomplished by solar radiation, chemicals,
                adsorption, or several methods in combination. In sun bleaching,
                beeswax is exposed as thin shavings in shallow pans with water.
                Bleaching chemicals include bichromates, permanganates, peroxides,
                and chlorine compounds. Bleaching by the adsorption method requires
                that diatomacesous earth or powdered charcoal be added to the molten
                wax. The mixture is agitated for several hours, and then forced
                through a filter press to remove all solid particles."

                You do have a copy of The Hive and the Honey Bee, right?

                No mention of salt water.






                SPONSORED LINKS
                BeekeepingBeekeeping suppliesBeekeeping equipment


                YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS






                Brings words and photos together (easily) with
                PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.

              • marc sepesh
                Re: aluminum pans--I use aluminum pans for melting beeswax everyday and have never seen a discoloration in the wax. I m an artist, an encaustic painter--and
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 4, 2006
                  Re: aluminum pans--I use aluminum pans for melting beeswax everyday and have never seen a discoloration in the wax.  I'm an artist, an encaustic painter--and have over 70 1 quart pans of 70+ colors in the studio at any time.  I've been using raw wax (cappings mainly) I purchase from beekeepers in the midwest--a very light golden color, but I was interested in bleaching some of it white to see what effect it might have on my colors.  The raw wax I use now is very weak in color (like weak tea) and is easily pigmented so there really isn't a problem with the wax I have--just curious.
                   
                  regards,
                  Marc
                  Cape Cod

                  ace <aceinthehole@...> wrote:
                  Therein lies your problem marc.  Beeswax should never touch anything but tin or stainless steel.  Melting in aluminum will surely discolor your wax.
                   
                  ace
                   


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