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Deformed wings

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  • Mike Gillmore
    Hello everyone, It s me again with another one of my stupid questions. I walked breifly through one of my yards today and at one hive I noticed quite a few
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 2, 2005
      Hello everyone,
       
        It's me again with another one of my stupid questions.
        I walked breifly through one of my yards today and at one hive I noticed quite a few bees scattered around in the grass that had deformed wings. I've been feeding them plain grease patties for about two months now....this was a captured swarm from June.... but apparently that is not going to prevent the mite problem. These are the first signs of trouble that I have seen with this hive and they have so far been very successful in building up a good population, storing up plenty of nectar & pollen for winter, and are also working on a super right now.
        Is it normal to periodically see a certain number of sick bees driven from a hive ? Is time to go to the next step in treatment ( I was hoping to go the natural route, maybe not ) ? Is it too late ? What should I do next ?
      I've been out of beekeeping since the middle 70's and this is my first year back at it. Things were different then and I'm in the steep part of the learning curve trying to stay alert to the threats of the day. Experience is the best teacher but I also like to learn as much as possible from the lessons that others have learned. I will greatly appreciate all of your advice.
       
      Thanks,
       
      Mike
    • George Fergusson
      ... It s me again with another one of my stupid answers! ... from a hive ? No, it isn t normal. ... natural route, maybe not ) ? Is it too late ? What should I
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 2, 2005
        At 05:49 PM 10/2/05 -0500, you wrote:
        >Hello everyone,
        >
        >It's me again with another one of my stupid questions.

        It's me again with another one of my stupid answers!

        > Is it normal to periodically see a certain number of sick bees driven
        from a hive ?

        No, it isn't normal.

        >Is time to go to the next step in treatment ( I was hoping to go the
        natural route, maybe not ) ? Is it too late ? What should I do next ?

        Have you done any mite counts? 24 hour natural drops? A sugar roll maybe?
        Keeping track of the change in mite loads is tedious but necessary. Also,
        go through the hive, or enough of it to check some of the brood- look for
        uncapped pupae, dead uncapped brood, etc. I'm not talking healthy curled up
        white larvae swimming in their puddle of royal jelly, I'm talking larger,
        older partially formed bees that might even have purple eyes. Dig a few out
        with your hive tool or a sharp stick and check for mites. Also be on the
        lookout for bees with deformed wings wandering around the comb. I've seen
        that in a few of my hives.

        Next, if you determine you have a mite problem, is to decide what you're
        going to do. In general I'm staying away from the patently chemical
        approaches. In particular, I'm using Oxalic Acid vapor. I hope it's
        helped.. I'll lose these hives if it doesn't I'm afraid. I've done 3
        treatments to date and have just put in my screens to do drop counts.

        >I've been out of beekeeping since the middle 70's and this is my first
        year back at it. Things were different then and I'm in the steep part of
        the learning curve trying to stay alert to the threats of the day.
        Experience is the best teacher but I also like to learn as much as possible
        from the lessons that others have learned. I will greatly appreciate all of
        your advice.

        I'll take your word for beekeeping having changed in 30 something years.
        I'm sure it has. The bees are largely the same I think, but we got mites
        now.. and many of the bee diseases aren't responding to traditional
        treatments due to years and years of the effects of the use of chemicals to
        combat them. Obviously, it isn't working.

        Good luck. Let us know what you find out.

        George-

        ---------------------------------------
        George & Nancy Fergusson
        Sweet Time Apiary
        326 Jefferson Road
        Whitefield Maine 04353
        207-549-5991
        http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/
      • Chip Phelps
        Mike, There are different kinds of deformed wings. If they are K shaped, on both sides, then it is a tracheal mite infection. If the wings look like they are
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 2, 2005
          Mike,

          There are different kinds of deformed wings. If they are K shaped, on
          both sides, then it is a tracheal mite infection. If the wings look
          like they are gone, or stingy, and / or some of the bees tossed out of
          the hive (maybe very few) are not fully developed, then it is probably
          varroa mites. Here's a good pic of one that has the bad wings and a
          mite readily visible. I'm guessing that this deformation happened in
          the brood cell but am not 100% sure.
          (http://www.shef.ac.uk/uni/projects/taplab/images/deformed.jpg)

          I do know that they get into the cell as the bee is developing and ruin
          the developing bee. :-(

          In both cases deformed wings are a sign of a VERY heavy infestation!
          You've got to act quickly to save them. Check with a local bee club to
          be sure what is best in your area. In NC, our local bee inspector
          recommends MiteAway II (a formic acid treatment) on a 21 day treatment.
          The NC State Extension office also is pushing this as the best
          treatment. Here is one of their articles:
          (http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/copubs/news/bees_henderson/2005-10/3.html)

          You have to treat all the bees in your apiary and harvest any honey you
          want first, then treat with the MiteAway stuff. It's not organic, but
          it is not exactly a poison in the truest sense. There is little if any
          residual effects afterwards..

          Both types of mites are actually becoming resistant to the other
          treatments (poisons), but not to MiteAway because of the way it works.
          The formic acid vapors released from their packet kill both types of
          mites and do little, if any, harm to the bees. (Unless temps get over
          85-90 then it overwhelms them) When you are done, take out the little
          packet and there doesn't seem to be any residual effects. Although I
          also noticed my hive beetles seem to be gone too (they don't say
          anything about that in their literature). Here's their corporate web
          site: http://www.miteaway.com

          I bought mine from Miller Bee Supply here in NC
          (http://www.millerbeesupply.com) . They also had the required spacers
          needed and were reasonably priced and quick for me (here in NC). It
          comes in a bucket of ten treatments (packets) and that is the only
          downside. I've only got two hives and so have eight packets left over
          that I probably won't use anytime soon. Maybe I'll use two more in the
          spring to give them a good start next year. We'll see how the feedback
          here goes.

          Also keep in mind that the mites in the cells w/ the young are not
          bothered by the treatment as much (not at all if sealed), so you'll get
          dead / deformed bees being pulled out for at least two weeks post
          application. But hopefully not after that. Lastly, The label says to
          pull honey supers off before treatment! Listen to the label... ;-)

          Good luck!

          -Chip

          Mike Gillmore wrote:

          > Hello everyone,
          >
          > It's me again with another one of my stupid questions.
          > I walked breifly through one of my yards today and at one hive I
          > noticed quite a few bees scattered around in the grass that had
          > deformed wings. I've been feeding them plain grease patties for about
          > two months now....this was a captured swarm from June.... but
          > apparently that is not going to prevent the mite problem. These are
          > the first signs of trouble that I have seen with this hive and they
          > have so far been very successful in building up a good population,
          > storing up plenty of nectar & pollen for winter, and are also working
          > on a super right now.
          > Is it normal to periodically see a certain number of sick bees
          > driven from a hive ? Is time to go to the next step in treatment ( I
          > was hoping to go the natural route, maybe not ) ? Is it too late ?
          > What should I do next ?
          > I've been out of beekeeping since the middle 70's and this is my first
          > year back at it. Things were different then and I'm in the steep part
          > of the learning curve trying to stay alert to the threats of the day.
          > Experience is the best teacher but I also like to learn as much as
          > possible from the lessons that others have learned. I will greatly
          > appreciate all of your advice.
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Mike
        • Scot Mc Pherson
          Beekeeping has changed with the advent of 3 major influences. Varroa, small hive beetle and africanization. If we as a global community had simply let these
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 2, 2005
            Beekeeping has changed with the advent of 3 major influences. Varroa, small hive beetle and africanization. If we as a global community had simply let these things run their course, they would have faded into background problems with little adjustment to management styles. The coming of pharmaceutical beekeeping changed that course. Instead of pests and diseases burning through all that it could exploit, we have continued the possibility of widespread exploitation.

            Beekeeping used to be about knowing the seasons and following the bees. It is now instead the bees being o]towed behind us while the problems just follow. Predetors prey on the weak and keep the populations strong and tuned. Preventing the predation only lets the prey grow fat without the ability to survive. Sharks and fish, wolf and sheep, lions and antelopes all share this relationship, and so do bees share this relationship with mites and small hive beetle, wax moth, foulbrood and all the other threats. When we leave the predetors to their prey, all that is left is strong specimens to start the next generation. Keep it up and let it do its work and your predetor only continues to make you stronger.

            Scot Mc Pherson
            McPherson Family Honey Farms
            Davenport, IA
            Bradenton, FL
            http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/
            http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org
            http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/


            -----Original Message-----
            >From: "George Fergusson" <gsferg@...>
            >Sent: 10/2/05 7:07:36 PM
            >To: "beekeeping@yahoogroups.com" <beekeeping@yahoogroups.com>
            >Subject: Re: [beekeeping] Deformed wings
            >
            >At 05:49 PM 10/2/05 -0500, you wrote:
            >>Hello everyone,
            >>
            >>It's me again with another one of my stupid questions.
            >
            >It's me again with another one of my stupid answers!
            >
            >> Is it normal to periodically see a certain number of sick bees driven
            >from a hive ?
            >
            >No, it isn't normal.
            >
            >>Is time to go to the next step in treatment ( I was hoping to go the
            >natural route, maybe not ) ? Is it too late ? What should I do next ?
            >
            >Have you done any mite counts? 24 hour natural drops? A sugar roll maybe?
            >Keeping track of the change in mite loads is tedious but necessary. Also,
            >go through the hive, or enough of it to check some of the brood- look for
            >uncapped pupae, dead uncapped brood, etc. I'm not talking healthy curled up
            >white larvae swimming in their puddle of royal jelly, I'm talking larger,
            >older partially formed bees that might even have purple eyes. Dig a few out
            >with your hive tool or a sharp stick and check for mites. Also be on the
            >lookout for bees with deformed wings wandering around the comb. I've seen
            >that in a few of my hives.
            >
            >Next, if you determine you have a mite problem, is to decide what you're
            >going to do. In general I'm staying away from the patently chemical
            >approaches. In particular, I'm using Oxalic Acid vapor. I hope it's
            >helped.. I'll lose these hives if it doesn't I'm afraid. I've done 3
            >treatments to date and have just put in my screens to do drop counts.
            >
            >>I've been out of beekeeping since the middle 70's and this is my first
            >year back at it. Things were different then and I'm in the steep part of
            >the learning curve trying to stay alert to the threats of the day.
            >Experience is the best teacher but I also like to learn as much as possible
            >from the lessons that others have learned. I will greatly appreciate all of
            >your advice.
            >
            >I'll take your word for beekeeping having changed in 30 something years.
            >I'm sure it has. The bees are largely the same I think, but we got mites
            >now.. and many of the bee diseases aren't responding to traditional
            >treatments due to years and years of the effects of the use of chemicals to
            >combat them. Obviously, it isn't working.
            >
            >Good luck. Let us know what you find out.
            >
            >George-
            >
            >---------------------------------------
            >George & Nancy Fergusson
            >Sweet Time Apiary
            >326 Jefferson Road
            >Whitefield Maine 04353
            >207-549-5991
            >http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • isequen@aol.com
            WOW
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 2, 2005
              WOW
            • Joseph Clemens
              Honeybees and Varroa are both part of a natural system, granted they probably weren t initally part of the same intrinsic system, but all natural systems are
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 2, 2005
                Honeybees and Varroa are both part of a natural system, granted they
                probably weren't initally part of the same intrinsic system, but all
                natural systems are in flux -- boy what a flux Varroa getting together
                with Apis mellifera has been. I agree, medicating is like putting a
                bandaid on a non-surgical amputation. If we let the bees, beetles,
                mites, and bacteria find their own equilibrium we would be better off.
                None of the "treatments" are cures -- cures would just not be as
                economically viable as "treatments" are.

                Joseph Clemens
                Tucson, Arizona

                --- In beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, "Scot Mc Pherson"
                <scot.mcpherson@g...> wrote:
                > Beekeeping has changed with the advent of 3 major influences.
                Varroa, small hive beetle and africanization. If we as a global
                community had simply let these things run their course, they would
                have faded into background problems with little adjustment to
                management styles. The coming of pharmaceutical beekeeping changed
                that course. Instead of pests and diseases burning through all that it
                could exploit, we have continued the possibility of widespread
                exploitation.
                >
                > Beekeeping used to be about knowing the seasons and following the
                bees. It is now instead the bees being o]towed behind us while the
                problems just follow. Predetors prey on the weak and keep the
                populations strong and tuned. Preventing the predation only lets the
                prey grow fat without the ability to survive. Sharks and fish, wolf
                and sheep, lions and antelopes all share this relationship, and so do
                bees share this relationship with mites and small hive beetle, wax
                moth, foulbrood and all the other threats. When we leave the predetors
                to their prey, all that is left is strong specimens to start the next
                generation. Keep it up and let it do its work and your predetor only
                continues to make you stronger.
                >
                > Scot Mc Pherson
                > McPherson Family Honey Farms
                > Davenport, IA
                > Bradenton, FL
                > http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/
                > http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > >From: "George Fergusson" <gsferg@s...>
                > >Sent: 10/2/05 7:07:36 PM
                > >To: "beekeeping@yahoogroups.com" <beekeeping@yahoogroups.com>
                > >Subject: Re: [beekeeping] Deformed wings
                > >
                > >At 05:49 PM 10/2/05 -0500, you wrote:
                > >>Hello everyone,
                > >>
                > >>It's me again with another one of my stupid questions.
                > >
                > >It's me again with another one of my stupid answers!
                > >
                > >> Is it normal to periodically see a certain number of sick
                bees driven
                > >from a hive ?
                > >
                > >No, it isn't normal.
                > >
                > >>Is time to go to the next step in treatment ( I was hoping to
                go the
                > >natural route, maybe not ) ? Is it too late ? What should I do
                next ?
                > >
                > >Have you done any mite counts? 24 hour natural drops? A sugar
                roll maybe?
                > >Keeping track of the change in mite loads is tedious but
                necessary. Also,
                > >go through the hive, or enough of it to check some of the brood-
                look for
                > >uncapped pupae, dead uncapped brood, etc. I'm not talking
                healthy curled up
                > >white larvae swimming in their puddle of royal jelly, I'm
                talking larger,
                > >older partially formed bees that might even have purple eyes.
                Dig a few out
                > >with your hive tool or a sharp stick and check for mites. Also
                be on the
                > >lookout for bees with deformed wings wandering around the comb.
                I've seen
                > >that in a few of my hives.
                > >
                > >Next, if you determine you have a mite problem, is to decide
                what you're
                > >going to do. In general I'm staying away from the patently chemical
                > >approaches. In particular, I'm using Oxalic Acid vapor. I hope it's
                > >helped.. I'll lose these hives if it doesn't I'm afraid. I've done 3
                > >treatments to date and have just put in my screens to do drop
                counts.
                > >
                > >>I've been out of beekeeping since the middle 70's and this is
                my first
                > >year back at it. Things were different then and I'm in the steep
                part of
                > >the learning curve trying to stay alert to the threats of the day.
                > >Experience is the best teacher but I also like to learn as much
                as possible
                > >from the lessons that others have learned. I will greatly
                appreciate all of
                > >your advice.
                > >
                > >I'll take your word for beekeeping having changed in 30
                something years.
                > >I'm sure it has. The bees are largely the same I think, but we
                got mites
                > >now.. and many of the bee diseases aren't responding to traditional
                > >treatments due to years and years of the effects of the use of
                chemicals to
                > >combat them. Obviously, it isn't working.
                > >
                > >Good luck. Let us know what you find out.
                > >
                > >George-
                > >
                > >---------------------------------------
                > >George & Nancy Fergusson
                > >Sweet Time Apiary
                > >326 Jefferson Road
                > >Whitefield Maine 04353
                > >207-549-5991
                > >http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
              • Mike Gillmore
                From: Chip Phelps Subject: Re: [beekeeping] Deformed wings ... You re right on the money , Chip. I just did my first 24 hour drop count
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 4, 2005
                  From: "Chip Phelps" <chipinnc@...>
                  Subject: Re: [beekeeping] Deformed wings


                  > In both cases deformed wings are a sign of a VERY heavy infestation!

                  You're right on the money , Chip. I just did my first 24 hour drop count and
                  I was somewhat shocked. I counted 31 from the hive in question and on the
                  other two in this yard there were probably near 100 each....just an
                  estimate, I ran out of time to count them all. I had no idea, everything
                  inside looks so good. I've learned my lesson here about doing regular drop
                  counts and monitoring it very closely.

                  > You've got to act quickly to save them. In NC, our local bee inspector
                  > recommends MiteAway II (a formic acid treatment) on a 21 day treatment.

                  I went to Queen Right Colonies today and picked up a pail of MiteAway II. I
                  would love to go the "All Natural" route and let the weak fade away and the
                  strong survive, but I just don't have the heart to allow all of these
                  colonies to die this winter by doing nothing and letting nature take it's
                  course. Hopefully there will be enough young healthy bees after treatment
                  that can carry them through the winter. The owners at Queen Right said that
                  right now is the perfect time to use this product. We have been in the 80's
                  here in Ohio, believe it or not, and it looks like later this week we will
                  get a cold front and probably our first frost. I'll pull all of the supers
                  in the next week and then treat immediately.

                  Thanks Chip. And thanks to everyone else who responded. I appreciate all of
                  you taking the time to lay out your own personal perspective.
                • Chip Phelps
                  Mike, Glad to hear you ve got it handled especially in the light of colder weather coming soon. I grew up in the Cleveland area of Ohio many years ago. My
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                    Mike,

                    Glad to hear you've got it handled especially in the light of colder
                    weather coming soon.

                    I grew up in the Cleveland area of Ohio many years ago. My Uncle was
                    actually an Ohio state Bee Inspector (Walter Thomas). So I grew up on
                    Ohio Honey (Yes even as a baby) ;-).

                    There is another rout you can go for ongoing prevention of mite problems
                    too. More Organic than the Mite Away II, but probably not as good. If
                    you put in screened bottom boards, and use PAM or some spray oil on the
                    boards, then sprinkle powdered sugar all along the top frames, the mites
                    will fall off at an incredible rate and stick to the bottom board.
                    Then clean them off regularly and put more sugar in when the mite count
                    slows down. (You'll be cleaning those boards every day for a while).

                    But then again the MOST organic way is to let nature take it's course
                    and let the bees that can't survive die.. (I agree with your
                    philosophy, save them!)

                    I'm thinking of requeening with SMR / Hygienic queens and see how that
                    goes. I almost don't want to because these guys are very easy going and
                    easy to handle which is good because I'm on 1/8 acre in Suburbia (Very
                    capitol "S") and don't want any problems with the neighbors and my bees.

                    We'll see. It's all a learning process..

                    Good lick Mike!

                    -Chip




                    Mike Gillmore wrote:

                    >From: "Chip Phelps" <chipinnc@...>
                    >Subject: Re: [beekeeping] Deformed wings
                    >
                    >
                    > > In both cases deformed wings are a sign of a VERY heavy infestation!
                    >
                    >You're right on the money , Chip. I just did my first 24 hour drop count and
                    >I was somewhat shocked. I counted 31 from the hive in question and on the
                    >other two in this yard there were probably near 100 each....just an
                    >estimate, I ran out of time to count them all. I had no idea, everything
                    >inside looks so good. I've learned my lesson here about doing regular drop
                    >counts and monitoring it very closely.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>You've got to act quickly to save them. In NC, our local bee inspector
                    >>recommends MiteAway II (a formic acid treatment) on a 21 day treatment.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >I went to Queen Right Colonies today and picked up a pail of MiteAway II. I
                    >would love to go the "All Natural" route and let the weak fade away and the
                    >strong survive, but I just don't have the heart to allow all of these
                    >colonies to die this winter by doing nothing and letting nature take it's
                    >course. Hopefully there will be enough young healthy bees after treatment
                    >that can carry them through the winter. The owners at Queen Right said that
                    >right now is the perfect time to use this product. We have been in the 80's
                    >here in Ohio, believe it or not, and it looks like later this week we will
                    >get a cold front and probably our first frost. I'll pull all of the supers
                    >in the next week and then treat immediately.
                    >
                    >Thanks Chip. And thanks to everyone else who responded. I appreciate all of
                    >you taking the time to lay out your own personal perspective.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Martin Gutzmer
                    Hi Yesterday I was mowing around my hives on a riding mower - did it all summer - no problem. Yesterday about 40 bees came charging out and followed me and my
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                      Hi
                      Yesterday I was mowing around my hives on a riding mower - did it all
                      summer - no problem.

                      Yesterday about 40 bees came charging out and followed me and my dog all the
                      way across our property 3.7 acres.

                      This is a real change in bEE havior. Any ideas why??

                      Please advise,
                      Thanks,
                      Martin
                      --
                      No virus found in this outgoing message.
                      Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                      Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.10/119 - Release Date: 10/4/2005
                    • FarmerBrown49@aol.com
                      In a message dated 10/5/2005 11:46:27 A.M. Central Daylight Time, mrgutzmer@mchsi.com writes: This is a real change in bEE havior. Any ideas why?? Lack of
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                        In a message dated 10/5/2005 11:46:27 A.M. Central Daylight Time, mrgutzmer@... writes:
                        This is a real change in bEE havior. Any ideas why??

                        Lack of Honey flow.
                         
                        Sammy
                        Our web site: http://www.brownsbees.com  or
                        http://brownsapiaries.com/
                        Other screen names I can be reached at: sammy@..., farmerbrown49@..., ASamBrown@... Host your Web site with BizLand!
                      • Chip Phelps
                        Martin, A little help here. Where are you located? How ofter do you visit your bees. Did this just happen in the past couple of days, or have you been
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                          Martin,

                          A little help here. Where are you located? How ofter do you "visit"
                          your bees. Did this just happen in the past couple of days, or have you
                          been absent from your hive for many days / weeks?

                          If you are in an affected state (TX, AZ, CA, etc.) the most obvious
                          answer maybe be that they have been africanized. But that is a HUGE
                          jump with nothing to go on.

                          They could also be very low on honey reserves, fighting off other
                          regular predators (bears, skunks, etc), or have re-queened themselves
                          with one more hostile (but not necessarily Africanized). Too many
                          questions out there and possibilities..

                          Give us an idea of where you are, and what your life is like there. How
                          many hives in your apiary, things like that.

                          I do know that I make it a point to visit my hives many times a week,
                          and run the lawn mower near there VERY regularly just to keep them all
                          used to "people" sounds and, I am told, that if I do this regularly they
                          will be used to it and not go berserk when this new scary sound comes by.

                          Sorry I/we couldn't be more helpful without more information.

                          -Chip

                          Martin Gutzmer wrote:

                          >Hi
                          >Yesterday I was mowing around my hives on a riding mower - did it all
                          >summer - no problem.
                          >
                          >Yesterday about 40 bees came charging out and followed me and my dog all the
                          >way across our property 3.7 acres.
                          >
                          >This is a real change in bEE havior. Any ideas why??
                          >
                          >Please advise,
                          >Thanks,
                          >Martin
                          >
                          >
                        • Lew Best
                          I had a hive that went queenless do that in the early spring. Lew ... From: Martin Gutzmer To: Sent:
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                            I had a hive that went queenless do that in the early spring.

                            Lew
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Martin Gutzmer" <mrgutzmer@...>
                            To: <beekeeping@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 11:31 AM
                            Subject: [beekeeping] Suddenly mean bees


                            > Hi
                            > Yesterday I was mowing around my hives on a riding mower - did it all
                            > summer - no problem.
                            >
                            > Yesterday about 40 bees came charging out and followed me and my dog all
                            the
                            > way across our property 3.7 acres.
                            >
                            > This is a real change in bEE havior. Any ideas why??
                            >
                            > Please advise,
                            > Thanks,
                            > Martin
                            > --
                            > No virus found in this outgoing message.
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                          • Martin Gutzmer
                            ... From: beekeeping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:beekeeping@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Chip Phelps Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:33 PM To:
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                              I Will intersperse answers below:

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: beekeeping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:beekeeping@yahoogroups.com]On
                              Behalf Of Chip Phelps
                              Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:33 PM
                              To: beekeeping@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [beekeeping] Suddenly mean bees


                              Martin,

                              A little help here. Where are you located?
                              Western Illinois

                              How ofter do you "visit"
                              once a week - although I do not open the hives that often

                              your bees.

                              Did this just happen in the past couple of days, or have you
                              been absent from your hive for many days / weeks?
                              tehy were ok two weeks ago.


                              If you are in an affected state (TX, AZ, CA, etc.) the most obvious
                              answer maybe be that they have been africanized. But that is a HUGE
                              jump with nothing to go on

                              two hives in Western IL near Quad cities.


                              They could also be very low on honey reserves, fighting off other
                              regular predators (bears, skunks, etc), or have re-queened themselves
                              with one more hostile (but not necessarily Africanized). Too many
                              questions out there and possibilities..

                              I have not gone deeply into the hive since I gave a tour to a reporter two
                              months ago - she even stuck her camera in the hive and took pictures.




                              Give us an idea of where you are, and what your life is like there. How
                              many hives in your apiary, things like that.



                              I do know that I make it a point to visit my hives many times a week,
                              and run the lawn mower near there VERY regularly just to keep them all
                              used to "people" sounds and, I am told, that if I do this regularly they
                              will be used to it and not go berserk when this new scary sound comes by.

                              Sorry I/we couldn't be more helpful without more information.

                              -Chip

                              Martin Gutzmer wrote:

                              >Hi
                              >Yesterday I was mowing around my hives on a riding mower - did it all
                              >summer - no problem.
                              >
                              >Yesterday about 40 bees came charging out and followed me and my dog all
                              the
                              >way across our property 3.7 acres.
                              >
                              >This is a real change in bEE havior. Any ideas why??
                              >
                              >Please advise,
                              >Thanks,
                              >Martin
                              >
                              >





                              Yahoo! Groups Links








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                            • Mike Gillmore
                              Chip, Small world. I grew up in the Cleveland area too... the east side. Highland Heights and Mayfield Heights. I m a little south now near Canton. I m going
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
                                Chip,

                                Small world. I grew up in the Cleveland area too... the east side. Highland
                                Heights and Mayfield Heights. I'm a little south now near Canton.
                                I'm going to try the powdered sugar treatment. Sounds like a great way to
                                knock some of them down until I have a chance to pull the supers and treat
                                with MiteAway II. The people at Queen Right said that another treatment I
                                could try during the hot summer months if mites are detected would be
                                Sucrocide..... sounds very time consuming, but with only 4 or 5 hives I
                                should be able to find the time.... and it could be applied whenever
                                needed - spring through fall.
                                Three of my hives were captured swarms from this past June and they are
                                getting a little mean when I get into the boxes now. It could be that they
                                are just being protective of their stores... we'll see how they are this
                                spring during the flow. Plans are to requeen in August/September but I am
                                not sure what kind(s) to order. At a different location we have 1 hive which
                                was a spring package of Minnesota Hygenics. It is doing very well and the
                                bees are easily handled. If they do well this winter I may requeen next year
                                with them. I had 2 packages there but one colony superceded and I think that
                                the Purple Martins got the new queen before she made it back. That colony
                                went queenless, and then we got a laying worker. :( Another lesson
                                learned on that one... we moved the hive, shook out the bees, and then
                                combined the returning foragers with the other hive.
                                Take care.

                                Mike


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Chip Phelps" <chipinnc@...>
                                Subject: Re: [beekeeping] Deformed wings


                                > Mike,
                                >
                                > Glad to hear you've got it handled especially in the light of colder
                                > weather coming soon.
                                >
                                > I grew up in the Cleveland area of Ohio many years ago. My Uncle was
                                > actually an Ohio state Bee Inspector (Walter Thomas). So I grew up on
                                > Ohio Honey (Yes even as a baby) ;-).
                                >
                                > There is another rout you can go for ongoing prevention of mite problems
                                > too. More Organic than the Mite Away II, but probably not as good. If
                                > you put in screened bottom boards, and use PAM or some spray oil on the
                                > boards, then sprinkle powdered sugar all along the top frames, the mites
                                > will fall off at an incredible rate and stick to the bottom board.
                                > Then clean them off regularly and put more sugar in when the mite count
                                > slows down. (You'll be cleaning those boards every day for a while).
                                >
                                > But then again the MOST organic way is to let nature take it's course
                                > and let the bees that can't survive die.. (I agree with your
                                > philosophy, save them!)
                                >
                                > I'm thinking of requeening with SMR / Hygienic queens and see how that
                                > goes. I almost don't want to because these guys are very easy going and
                                > easy to handle which is good because I'm on 1/8 acre in Suburbia (Very
                                > capitol "S") and don't want any problems with the neighbors and my bees.
                                >
                                > We'll see. It's all a learning process..
                                >
                                > Good lick Mike!
                                >
                                > -Chip
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Mike Gillmore wrote:
                                >
                                > >From: "Chip Phelps" <chipinnc@...>
                                > >Subject: Re: [beekeeping] Deformed wings
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > > In both cases deformed wings are a sign of a VERY heavy infestation!
                                > >
                                > >You're right on the money , Chip. I just did my first 24 hour drop count
                                and
                                > >I was somewhat shocked. I counted 31 from the hive in question and on the
                                > >other two in this yard there were probably near 100 each....just an
                                > >estimate, I ran out of time to count them all. I had no idea, everything
                                > >inside looks so good. I've learned my lesson here about doing regular
                                drop
                                > >counts and monitoring it very closely.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >>You've got to act quickly to save them. In NC, our local bee inspector
                                > >>recommends MiteAway II (a formic acid treatment) on a 21 day treatment.
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > >I went to Queen Right Colonies today and picked up a pail of MiteAway II.
                                I
                                > >would love to go the "All Natural" route and let the weak fade away and
                                the
                                > >strong survive, but I just don't have the heart to allow all of these
                                > >colonies to die this winter by doing nothing and letting nature take it's
                                > >course. Hopefully there will be enough young healthy bees after treatment
                                > >that can carry them through the winter. The owners at Queen Right said
                                that
                                > >right now is the perfect time to use this product. We have been in the
                                80's
                                > >here in Ohio, believe it or not, and it looks like later this week we
                                will
                                > >get a cold front and probably our first frost. I'll pull all of the
                                supers
                                > >in the next week and then treat immediately.
                                > >
                                > >Thanks Chip. And thanks to everyone else who responded. I appreciate all
                                of
                                > >you taking the time to lay out your own personal perspective.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
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                                >
                              • Scot Mc Pherson
                                Martin, I live in Davenport, IA now. Perhaps I could come and take a look? -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA
                                Message 15 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
                                  Martin,
                                  I live in Davenport, IA now. Perhaps I could come and take a
                                  look?

                                  --
                                  Scot Mc Pherson
                                  The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms
                                  Davenport, Iowa USA
                                  http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org
                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/
                                  mailto:scot.mcpherson@...


                                  . ` , ` '
                                  .,';`,. ``. '.
                                  _/^\_ :;.,';`'.,` `., ' '`,
                                  /_____\ .:.,"'`
                                  /\_____/\ .,:`'"
                                  \###/.,';`



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: beekeeping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:beekeeping@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Behalf Of Martin Gutzmer
                                  Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 2:06 PM
                                  To: beekeeping@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [beekeeping] Suddenly mean bees


                                  I Will intersperse answers below:

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: beekeeping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:beekeeping@yahoogroups.com]On
                                  Behalf Of Chip Phelps
                                  Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:33 PM
                                  To: beekeeping@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [beekeeping] Suddenly mean bees


                                  Martin,

                                  A little help here. Where are you located?
                                  Western Illinois

                                  How ofter do you "visit"
                                  once a week - although I do not open the hives that often

                                  your bees.

                                  Did this just happen in the past couple of days, or have you been absent
                                  from your hive for many days / weeks? tehy were ok two weeks ago.


                                  If you are in an affected state (TX, AZ, CA, etc.) the most obvious
                                  answer maybe be that they have been africanized. But that is a HUGE
                                  jump with nothing to go on

                                  two hives in Western IL near Quad cities.


                                  They could also be very low on honey reserves, fighting off other
                                  regular predators (bears, skunks, etc), or have re-queened themselves
                                  with one more hostile (but not necessarily Africanized). Too many
                                  questions out there and possibilities..

                                  I have not gone deeply into the hive since I gave a tour to a reporter
                                  two months ago - she even stuck her camera in the hive and took
                                  pictures.




                                  Give us an idea of where you are, and what your life is like there. How
                                  many hives in your apiary, things like that.



                                  I do know that I make it a point to visit my hives many times a week,
                                  and run the lawn mower near there VERY regularly just to keep them all
                                  used to "people" sounds and, I am told, that if I do this regularly they
                                  will be used to it and not go berserk when this new scary sound comes
                                  by.

                                  Sorry I/we couldn't be more helpful without more information.

                                  -Chip

                                  Martin Gutzmer wrote:

                                  >Hi
                                  >Yesterday I was mowing around my hives on a riding mower - did it all
                                  >summer - no problem.
                                  >
                                  >Yesterday about 40 bees came charging out and followed me and my dog
                                  >all
                                  the
                                  >way across our property 3.7 acres.
                                  >
                                  >This is a real change in bEE havior. Any ideas why??
                                  >
                                  >Please advise,
                                  >Thanks,
                                  >Martin
                                  >
                                  >





                                  Yahoo! Groups Links








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                                  Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                  Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.10/119 - Release Date:
                                  10/4/2005

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                                  Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                  Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.10/119 - Release Date:
                                  10/4/2005





                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                • Kayode Osinaike
                                  The noise of the mover must have attracted may be interested!them to follow you that much distance. ... __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
                                    The noise of the mover must have attracted may be
                                    interested!them to follow you that much distance.

                                    --- Martin Gutzmer <mrgutzmer@...> wrote:

                                    > Hi
                                    > Yesterday I was mowing around my hives on a riding
                                    > mower - did it all
                                    > summer - no problem.
                                    >
                                    > Yesterday about 40 bees came charging out and
                                    > followed me and my dog all the
                                    > way across our property 3.7 acres.
                                    >
                                    > This is a real change in bEE havior. Any ideas why??
                                    >
                                    > Please advise,
                                    > Thanks,
                                    > Martin
                                    > --
                                    > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                    > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                    > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.10/119 -
                                    > Release Date: 10/4/2005
                                    >
                                    >




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                                  • chuck
                                    could have been the smell of gas chuck
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
                                      could have been the smell of gas
                                      chuck


                                      --- In beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, Kayode Osinaike
                                      <jkoosinaike@y...> wrote:
                                      > The noise of the mover must have attracted may be
                                      > interested!them to follow you that much distance.
                                      >
                                      > --- Martin Gutzmer <mrgutzmer@m...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Hi
                                      > > Yesterday I was mowing around my hives on a riding
                                      > > mower - did it all
                                      > > summer - no problem.
                                      > >
                                      > > Yesterday about 40 bees came charging out and
                                      > > followed me and my dog all the
                                      > > way across our property 3.7 acres.
                                      > >
                                      > > This is a real change in bEE havior. Any ideas why??
                                      > >
                                      > > Please advise,
                                      > > Thanks,
                                      > > Martin
                                      > > --
                                      > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                      > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                      > > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.10/119 -
                                      > > Release Date: 10/4/2005
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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