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Re: Western beekeepers hopeful of varroa mite solution

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  • mdudley@king-cart.com
    Unfortunately the use of poisons by commercial beekeepers is why we still have a problem with mites. If it had not been for that, ALL mite susceptible genetic
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 12, 2012
      Unfortunately the use of poisons by commercial beekeepers is why we still have a problem with mites. If it had not been for that, ALL mite susceptible genetic lines would now be long gone and only mite tolerant lines would still be around. I am getting my bees from a local breeder that has used NO treatments on any of his hives for over 10 years and claims virtually no losses to his hives from mites. He lost most of his hives decades ago but between only breeding survival colonies, bringing in some Russians (which open mate with his Italian queens) and capturing wild swarms that have survived in the wild his lines are very resistant now. He does still have some problems with beetles though, especially those he uses for pollination and moves around.

      Marshall

      --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, Charles Walter <habutti@...> wrote:
      >
      > Idaho beekeepers could soon have another tool to use in their battle to
      > control varroa mites, honeybee parasites that have been linked to colony
      > collapse disorder and can devastate hives.
      > Read more at: http://bit.ly/SUPIOV
      > Charles Walter
      >
    • dale.tongue@gmail.com
      It would be interesting to watch your bees progress throughout the year(s) since they have no susceptibility with varroa. If your supplier has done such a
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 13, 2012

        It would be interesting to watch your bees progress throughout the year(s) since they have no susceptibility with varroa.  If your supplier has done such a great job with the strain of bee, I’m surprised that the commercial vendors haven’t started using his strain and advertising as something that’s as good if not better then the Minnesota hygienic bees.  No treatments, no medicines, sounds too good to be true.  I’d like to get me some of that.

        Dale 

         

        From: Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mdudley@...
        Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 11:19 AM
        To: Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Beekeeping] Re: Western beekeepers hopeful of varroa mite solution

         

         

        Unfortunately the use of poisons by commercial beekeepers is why we still have a problem with mites. If it had not been for that, ALL mite susceptible genetic lines would now be long gone and only mite tolerant lines would still be around. I am getting my bees from a local breeder that has used NO treatments on any of his hives for over 10 years and claims virtually no losses to his hives from mites. He lost most of his hives decades ago but between only breeding survival colonies, bringing in some Russians (which open mate with his Italian queens) and capturing wild swarms that have survived in the wild his lines are very resistant now. He does still have some problems with beetles though, especially those he uses for pollination and moves around.

        Marshall

        --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, Charles Walter <habutti@...> wrote:
        >
        > Idaho beekeepers could soon have another tool to use in their battle to
        > control varroa mites, honeybee parasites that have been linked to colony
        > collapse disorder and can devastate hives.
        > Read more at: http://bit.ly/SUPIOV
        > Charles Walter
        >

      • Mike S
        ... Randy Oliver has started a study of varroa free bees.  He s asked beekeepers who do not treat their bees and have hives that have been treatment free for
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 13, 2012
          >>>   It would be interesting to watch your bees progress throughout the year(s) since they have no susceptibility with varroa.

          Randy Oliver has started a study of varroa free bees.  He's asked beekeepers who do not treat their bees and have hives that have been treatment free for more than a few years to start taking monthly samples via his protocol (  http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-11-mite-monitoring-methods/ ) every month for a year or more and send the results to him for the study.   However, instead of using the 300 bee count method he has asked the participants to use a 200 bee count (1/3 cup) method.  The bees would be sampled via an alcohol wash.  I have started and have taken samples from three hives I will be following for the next year or so provided they don't crash.

          If you would also like to participate, you can contact Randy at:  http://scientificbeekeeping.com/contact-me/

          I think if quite a number of beekeepers who truly manage their bees treatment free were to provide Randy with their information, that we might as a beekeeping society come up with some pretty interesting information.  I am already learning more about my bees by following his monitoring methods.

          Mike in LA

        • mdudley@king-cart.com
          Indeed. I will report back on them later. I am getting a nuc around the first of April. For those interested here is his website:
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 13, 2012
            Indeed. I will report back on them later. I am getting a nuc around the first of April. For those interested here is his website:

            http://www.arnoldhoneybeeservices.com/html/bees_for_sale.html

            Fortunately he is close enough to me I will pick them up myself.

            Marshall

            --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, <dale.tongue@...> wrote:
            >
            > It would be interesting to watch your bees progress throughout the year(s)
            > since they have no susceptibility with varroa. If your supplier has done
            > such a great job with the strain of bee, I'm surprised that the commercial
            > vendors haven't started using his strain and advertising as something that's
            > as good if not better then the Minnesota hygienic bees. No treatments, no
            > medicines, sounds too good to be true. I'd like to get me some of that.
            >
            > Dale
            >
            >
            >
            > From: Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of mdudley@...
            > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 11:19 AM
            > To: Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [Beekeeping] Re: Western beekeepers hopeful of varroa mite solution
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Unfortunately the use of poisons by commercial beekeepers is why we still
            > have a problem with mites. If it had not been for that, ALL mite susceptible
            > genetic lines would now be long gone and only mite tolerant lines would
            > still be around. I am getting my bees from a local breeder that has used NO
            > treatments on any of his hives for over 10 years and claims virtually no
            > losses to his hives from mites. He lost most of his hives decades ago but
            > between only breeding survival colonies, bringing in some Russians (which
            > open mate with his Italian queens) and capturing wild swarms that have
            > survived in the wild his lines are very resistant now. He does still have
            > some problems with beetles though, especially those he uses for pollination
            > and moves around.
            >
            > Marshall
            >
            > --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Beekeeping%40yahoogroups.com> ,
            > Charles Walter <habutti@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Idaho beekeepers could soon have another tool to use in their battle to
            > > control varroa mites, honeybee parasites that have been linked to colony
            > > collapse disorder and can devastate hives.
            > > Read more at: http://bit.ly/SUPIOV
            > > Charles Walter
            > >
            >
          • habutti
            I too would like to return to the days when beekeeping was so hands free, but the reality is that the mites are here and we must deal with them in one way or
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 13, 2012
              I too would like to return to the days when beekeeping was so hands free, but the reality is that the mites are here and we must deal with them in one way or another, or a combination of approaches thereof. When one has a few hives to deal with as a hobby, it is easy to put out blanket statements, as well as to put the blame on others.
              If little Jon & Jane looked up to you for their bread and milk, if the truck note came due, and the mortgage, and it all depended on you, and your main and only source of income was from your bees operated commercially, I guess your approach would be a bit different. If many took that approach that you suggest (let their bees die if they cannot fight the mites on their own) we (yes including you) would be in great trouble. Remember commercial beekeepers are the ones doing the bulk of the pollination (as oppose to us hobby beekeepers), they are the ones who are contributing to the advancement of our agriculture.
              It steams me to see speakers go around the country filling the minds of hobby beeks (mostly new beeks) with ideas like this, insinuating there is only one solution, one way and that is my way so let all the genetic diversity of bees die off and let us minimize the genetic pool to a few strains that make it out alive at the other end, and if in the process lives are affected, oh well, it is their fault any way, when they themselves are not full time beekeepers whose sole existence depends upon the livelihood of their bees. I run 200 Russian hives part time, I don’t treat all my hives only the drone mothers because I load them with mites by introducing and maintaining all year round, 2 deep drone frames in order to produce drones for queen rearing. I have a full time job that allows me to keep bees and supply what is needed when it is needed. I can afford to sit aside and watch them all die, and my pay check will not be affected, because that is not my main source of income, it is just a hobby that grew out of control. That said, I will never suggest to a fellow man to do something I am not willing to do myself. What worse poison then what you will have to take if you develop cancer, yet I can assure you if we were diagnose with it we’d take that poison.
              There are not a lot of folks who "live" from keeping bees that can’t afford to be cleaned out completely and can start over again. Imagine if we had to take up that attitude with our sick children. This sounds like my neighbor beekeeper who scorns at me as I introduce my Pierco foundation while he is sipping out of a plastic bottle of water.
              For many these so called poisons are the silver bullet that helps them to make it to the next season, and be able to meet that payment, keep roof over their family, and put some food on the table. I hope I offend no one with this post, and if I did I apologize for it. I don’t intend to advocate using chemicals, but I will not sit here and condemn the approach you may take, it if works for you, then it works for you.
              Charles



              --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, mdudley@... wrote:
              >
              > Unfortunately the use of poisons by commercial beekeepers is why we still have a problem with mites. If it had not been for that, ALL mite susceptible genetic lines would now be long gone and only mite tolerant lines would still be around. I am getting my bees from a local breeder that has used NO treatments on any of his hives for over 10 years and claims virtually no losses to his hives from mites. He lost most of his hives decades ago but between only breeding survival colonies, bringing in some Russians (which open mate with his Italian queens) and capturing wild swarms that have survived in the wild his lines are very resistant now. He does still have some problems with beetles though, especially those he uses for pollination and moves around.
              >
              > Marshall
              >
              > --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, Charles Walter <habutti@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Idaho beekeepers could soon have another tool to use in their battle to
              > > control varroa mites, honeybee parasites that have been linked to colony
              > > collapse disorder and can devastate hives.
              > > Read more at: http://bit.ly/SUPIOV
              > > Charles Walter
              > >
              >
            • mdudley@king-cart.com
              ... I don t disagree with that. It is true that if chemicals had not been used commercial beekeepers would have been wiped out, and that many food crops would
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 14, 2012
                --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, "habutti" <habutti@...> wrote:
                >
                > I too would like to return to the days when beekeeping was so hands free, but the reality is that the mites are here and we must deal with them in one way or another, or a combination of approaches thereof. When one has a few hives to deal with as a hobby, it is easy to put out blanket statements, as well as to put the blame on others.
                > If little Jon & Jane looked up to you for their bread and milk, if the truck note came due, and the mortgage, and it all depended on you, and your main and only source of income was from your bees operated commercially, I guess your approach would be a bit different. If many took that approach that you suggest (let their bees die if they cannot fight the mites on their own) we (yes including you) would be in great trouble. Remember commercial beekeepers are the ones doing the bulk of the pollination (as oppose to us hobby beekeepers), they are the ones who are contributing to the advancement of our agriculture.

                I don't disagree with that. It is true that if chemicals had not been used commercial beekeepers would have been wiped out, and that many food crops would have become almost non-existent. This would have been devastating to not only beekeepers, farmers but also anyone who eats. But that does not change the fact that over the next decade the 1% that survived would have come back with genetics that dealt with the mites. This has already been proven in Russia where the mites hit their wild bees and without chemicals they became resistant. It is true that the use of chemicals is the reason why we still have bees susceptible to the mites, but of course it would have been a disaster to allow almost all die like happened in Russia where the mite resistant bees came from when they got the mites. That of course would not have been a workable solution at all.

                > It steams me to see speakers go around the country filling the minds of hobby beeks (mostly new beeks) with ideas like this, insinuating there is only one solution,

                Who said there is only one solution? I certainly didn't. There are many solutions. There are chemicals, sugar dusting, screened bottom boards and mite resistant genetics and likely others I am unaware of, like maybe introducing a mite disease. The obvious best choice is of course the mite resistant genetics as they require no monitoring, toxic chemicals or beekeeper's time or expense. Initially this was not a choice at all, but now it has become one. I am personally going with a screened bottom board and resistant genetics. I personally think that if everyone would only buy bees from breeders who no longer use chemicals now that they are available, over a rather short time almost all bees would become resistant to the mites.

                > one way and that is my way so let all the genetic diversity of bees die off and let us minimize the genetic pool to a few strains that make it out alive at the other end

                Actually, since many if not most of the resistant bees (not counting Russians) have come from wild swarms that survived, instead of genetically pure open mated or inseminated hived bees bougth from other breeders doing the same thing, I expect the genetic diversity to be much better.

                > and if in the process lives are affected, oh well, it is their fault any way, when they themselves are not full time beekeepers whose sole existence depends upon the livelihood of their bees.

                I don't follow this line of thinking. Who said anything about fault? It is what it is, but the fact remains that chemicals are extending the time it would have taken convert genetics to be resistant. That is all that was said. No fault implied, just a simple fact. The breeder I am getting my bees from fortunately has no commercial keepers near him, so he does not have to contend non-resistant genetics coming in from elsewhere when open mating.

                >I will never suggest to a fellow man to do something I am not willing to do myself. What worse poison then what you will have to take if you develop cancer, yet I can assure you if we were diagnose with it we’d take that poison.

                You are wrong then. I would never ever take chemotherapy. Everyone I know who has taken it died within a month, and I know many who have used natural methods and now live a happy life. I in fact have not taken any "medicine" except an antibiotic one time, in two decades. I personally avoid allopathics like the plague. But that is a discussion for another time and place.

                > There are not a lot of folks who "live" from keeping bees that can’t afford to be cleaned out completely and can start over again. Imagine if we had to take up that attitude with our sick children. This sounds like my neighbor beekeeper who scorns at me as I introduce my Pierco foundation while he is sipping out of a plastic bottle of water.

                No one suggested that they should be wiped out. I would suggest that those same keepers purchase only from breeders who don't use chemicals though, and over time end up with a stock which is resistant enough to not require special treatment. The "wiped out" part has already been done by a few breeders a decade ago who now offer surviver stock and is no longer applicable. That cost nothing, and should end up saving both a lot of time and money. I would also suggest purchasing from more than one breeder to maintain good genetic diversity. This used to not be an option before the surviver stock became available, but now is.

                > For many these so called poisons are the silver bullet that helps them to make it to the next season, and be able to meet that payment, keep roof over their family, and put some food on the table. I hope I offend no one with this post, and if I did I apologize for it.

                No offense, but you are fighting a paper tiger, since no such suggestions were ever made. "Only that if bees had never gotten any treatments they would all be resistant now" was the statement, and is true. That beekeepers, farmers, almond growers, and even consumers would likely have been wiped out is simply an element that was not part of that statement.

                > I don’t intend to advocate using chemicals, but I will not sit here and condemn the approach you may take, it if works for you, then it works for you.

                Once again, I am not condemning anyone. You are reading something in the post that simply was not there. Initially they had no choice. However now I think many do, but might be stuck in their "old" way of doing things. That is fine, progress is normally made by one generation dieing off and the next doing things differently, that is the way of life and progress.

                As far as using chemicals, if for instance a hive swarmed, and the new queen managed to mate with a bunch of non resistant drones from somewhere else so her offspring were not resistant, I would not hesitate to use chemicals to keep them alive long enough to replace the queen with one which would produce resistant workers.

                Marshall

                > Charles
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, mdudley@ wrote:
                > >
                > > Unfortunately the use of poisons by commercial beekeepers is why we still have a problem with mites. If it had not been for that, ALL mite susceptible genetic lines would now be long gone and only mite tolerant lines would still be around. I am getting my bees from a local breeder that has used NO treatments on any of his hives for over 10 years and claims virtually no losses to his hives from mites. He lost most of his hives decades ago but between only breeding survival colonies, bringing in some Russians (which open mate with his Italian queens) and capturing wild swarms that have survived in the wild his lines are very resistant now. He does still have some problems with beetles though, especially those he uses for pollination and moves around.
                > >
                > > Marshall
                > >
                > > --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, Charles Walter <habutti@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Idaho beekeepers could soon have another tool to use in their battle to
                > > > control varroa mites, honeybee parasites that have been linked to colony
                > > > collapse disorder and can devastate hives.
                > > > Read more at: http://bit.ly/SUPIOV
                > > > Charles Walter
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Gary Glaenzer
                What is it with the slang like beeks ???? Good grief, is it THAT much trouble to write beekeepers ? It s nearly as bad as amateur radio operators
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 14, 2012
                  What is it with the slang like 'beeks'  ????
                   
                  Good grief, is it THAT much trouble to write 'beekeepers' ?
                   
                   
                  It's nearly as bad as amateur radio operators referring to mentors as 'Elmers'
                   
                  I'm sure the only 'Elmer' that a lot of young folks know is Elmer Fudd, is that what they want the public to think that they are ?
                   
                  'Be vewwy, vweww qwiet.......I'm twying to work a wawe countwey...........'
                   
                  Soapbox now available for next ranter
                   
                  Gary
                   
                   
                   
                   

                  <go around the country filling the minds of hobby beeks (mostly new beeks) with ideas like this>
                • mdudley@king-cart.com
                  I only recently saw that term. I thought it was likely a contraction of bee and geek. But checking the dictionary the accepted definitions are: 1.) A
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 14, 2012
                    I only recently saw that term. I thought it was likely a contraction of bee and geek. But checking the dictionary the accepted definitions are:

                    1.) A prehistoric animal with an awkward wingspan.
                    2.) An outrageously adorable person with dinosaur-like qualities.

                    Neither of which seem applicable to someone on the net sight unseen.

                    Marshall

                    --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Glaenzer" <glaenzer@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > What is it with the slang like 'beeks' ????
                    >
                    > Good grief, is it THAT much trouble to write 'beekeepers' ?
                    >
                    >
                    > It's nearly as bad as amateur radio operators referring to mentors as 'Elmers'
                    >
                    > I'm sure the only 'Elmer' that a lot of young folks know is Elmer Fudd, is that what they want the public to think that they are ?
                    >
                    > 'Be vewwy, vweww qwiet.......I'm twying to work a wawe countwey...........'
                    >
                    > Soapbox now available for next ranter
                    >
                    > Gary
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > <go around the country filling the minds of hobby beeks (mostly new beeks) with ideas like this>
                    >
                  • Spayneuteryourpets Spayneuteryourpets
                    I thought it was short for beekeepers. ... I thought it was short for beekeepers. From: mdudley@king-cart.com To:
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 14, 2012
                      I thought it was short for beekeepers.


                      From: "mdudley@..." <mdudley@...>
                      To: Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 12:37 PM
                      Subject: [Beekeeping] Re: Western beekeepers hopeful of varroa mite solution

                       
                      I only recently saw that term. I thought it was likely a contraction of bee and geek. But checking the dictionary the accepted definitions are:

                      1.) A prehistoric animal with an awkward wingspan.
                      2.) An outrageously adorable person with dinosaur-like qualities.

                      Neither of which seem applicable to someone on the net sight unseen.

                      Marshall

                      --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Glaenzer" <glaenzer@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > What is it with the slang like 'beeks' ????
                      >
                      > Good grief, is it THAT much trouble to write 'beekeepers' ?
                      >
                      >
                      > It's nearly as bad as amateur radio operators referring to mentors as 'Elmers'
                      >
                      > I'm sure the only 'Elmer' that a lot of young folks know is Elmer Fudd, is that what they want the public to think that they are ?
                      >
                      > 'Be vewwy, vweww qwiet.......I'm twying to work a wawe countwey...........'
                      >
                      > Soapbox now available for next ranter
                      >
                      > Gary
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > <go around the country filling the minds of hobby beeks (mostly new beeks) with ideas like this>
                      >



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