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Re: [Beekeeping] Re: Capturing a wild hive.

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  • Sherill Ryan
    There was a program on TV where they did some experiments with AHB in the extreme cold and reported that they survived. That scares me to death... From: Bill
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 21, 2012
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      There was a program on TV where they did some experiments with AHB in the extreme cold and reported that they survived. That scares me to death...

      From: Bill <billbird2111@...>
      To: Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:27 AM
      Subject: [Beekeeping] Re: Capturing a wild hive.

       
      I feel very fortunate to live in extreme Northern California where a wild swarm is GUARANTEED to be the gentler, milder, Italian or Russian strains.

      The Africanized strains cannot survive the cold this far north. Then again, with warming temperatures, who knows what could happen in the near future.

      Bill

      --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, Bill Dickerson <Dickerson888@...> wrote:
      >
      > For the "Hey Y'all watch this" scenario it requires copious amounts of beer.
      >
      > On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 18:30, Carrie Hardee <redfsh3@...> wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > > Correct and just for the record... I do know the difference between a
      > > swarm and a colony of honeybees. Unfortunitly, I don't know the difference
      > > between a europeon honey bee and an african honey bee. I also don't
      > > believe anyone else does either, unless they have ties to a lab.
      > >
      > > The nature of the colony and location this particular one picked to settle
      > > has to much in common of the AHB and therefore, I'm not going to be the one
      > > to relocate it.
      > >
      > >



    • Carrie Hardee
      It does.  I wish they would have never made it to the states.  It s not the bees fault though.  They are only doing what they have to, to survive.  I wish
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 21, 2012
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        It does.  I wish they would have never made it to the states.  It's not the bees fault though.  They are only doing what they have to, to survive.  I wish I could rescue this colony, but I just can't take the risk.  I went by and checked on them again today.  I just hope they don't get exterminated.

        --- On Tue, 2/21/12, Sherill Ryan <sherillynn@...> wrote:

        From: Sherill Ryan <sherillynn@...>
        Subject: Re: [Beekeeping] Re: Capturing a wild hive.
        To: "Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com" <Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 3:05 PM

         
        There was a program on TV where they did some experiments with AHB in the extreme cold and reported that they survived. That scares me to death...

        From: Bill <billbird2111@...>
        To: Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:27 AM
        Subject: [Beekeeping] Re: Capturing a wild hive.

         
        I feel very fortunate to live in extreme Northern California where a wild swarm is GUARANTEED to be the gentler, milder, Italian or Russian strains.

        The Africanized strains cannot survive the cold this far north. Then again, with warming temperatures, who knows what could happen in the near future.

        Bill

        --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, Bill Dickerson <Dickerson888@...> wrote:
        >
        > For the "Hey Y'all watch this" scenario it requires copious amounts of beer.
        >
        > On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 18:30, Carrie Hardee <redfsh3@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > Correct and just for the record... I do know the difference between a
        > > swarm and a colony of honeybees. Unfortunitly, I don't know the difference
        > > between a europeon honey bee and an african honey bee. I also don't
        > > believe anyone else does either, unless they have ties to a lab.
        > >
        > > The nature of the colony and location this particular one picked to settle
        > > has to much in common of the AHB and therefore, I'm not going to be the one
        > > to relocate it.
        > >
        > >



      • Bill
        Sherill, First -- I m no scientist. I m just a big mouth PR flack for a Republican State Senator in California and a hobbyist beekeeper who loves his honey! I
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 22, 2012
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          Sherill,

          First -- I'm no scientist. I'm just a big mouth PR flack for a Republican State Senator in California and a hobbyist beekeeper who loves his honey!

          I find the results of those experiments to be rather dubious -- and I'll tell you why.

          The Africanized strains of honeybees arrived in Southern California DECADES ago. I know there are members of this very list who live in the southern part of the state and have a personal experience with them.

          If the Africanized strains really could survive the cold in our northern climes, Sherill, they would have arrived a long time ago. That's not science. It's just common sense. They've been progressing in a northerly direction ever since they were released (mistakenly) in Brazil in 1957. Not only would they have arrived by now, they'd be well established, just like they are in Southern California and much of the Southwest United States.

          The fact is -- they aren't here. I doubt they'll ever get here, unless it warms to the point where populations can be sustained.

          That's why capturing a wild hive here is such an easy trick. They're kind. They're gentle. While I have had limited experience with aggressive colonies (my first was very aggressive), I've been told that there's no comparison between aggressive Italians and the lean, mean machine that are the Africanized strains.

          Bill

          --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, Sherill Ryan <sherillynn@...> wrote:
          >
          > There was a program on TV where they did some experiments with AHB in the extreme cold and reported that they survived. That scares me to death...
          >
          >
        • Sherill Ryan
          Bill,   I agree with you and I wish I could remember the name of the program. It actually appeared fairly reputable. They showed them putting the bees in
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 22, 2012
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            Bill,
             
            I agree with you and I wish I could remember the name of the program. It actually appeared fairly reputable. They showed them putting the bees in almost what appeared to be a freezer of sorts with the temp monitored and the temp inside of the hive being monitored as well. I am not sure the number of the days involved in the study, but it was several. At the end of the time period, they went back in to the colony and it was still there with few losses.
             
            I too am a hobbyist with about a dozen hives for the past ten years. I am hoping they never make it here up north but I will say that the program was very intriguing. Let me check and see if my husband saved it and if I can get the name, maybe you can watch and decide for yourself. The experiment was very compelling. (In my opinion.)
             
            Sherill

            From: Bill <billbird2111@...>
            To: Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 11:43 AM
            Subject: [Beekeeping] Re: Capturing a wild hive.

             
            Sherill,

            First -- I'm no scientist. I'm just a big mouth PR flack for a Republican State Senator in California and a hobbyist beekeeper who loves his honey!

            I find the results of those experiments to be rather dubious -- and I'll tell you why.

            The Africanized strains of honeybees arrived in Southern California DECADES ago. I know there are members of this very list who live in the southern part of the state and have a personal experience with them.

            If the Africanized strains really could survive the cold in our northern climes, Sherill, they would have arrived a long time ago. That's not science. It's just common sense. They've been progressing in a northerly direction ever since they were released (mistakenly) in Brazil in 1957. Not only would they have arrived by now, they'd be well established, just like they are in Southern California and much of the Southwest United States.

            The fact is -- they aren't here. I doubt they'll ever get here, unless it warms to the point where populations can be sustained.

            That's why capturing a wild hive here is such an easy trick. They're kind. They're gentle. While I have had limited experience with aggressive colonies (my first was very aggressive), I've been told that there's no comparison between aggressive Italians and the lean, mean machine that are the Africanized strains.

            Bill

            --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, Sherill Ryan <sherillynn@...> wrote:
            >
            > There was a program on TV where they did some experiments with AHB in the extreme cold and reported that they survived. That scares me to death...
            >
            >



          • Sherill Ryan
            I think some of it was based on these studies:   http://www.amsciepub.com/doi/abs/10.2466/pr0.1997.81.3.707 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9400063   When
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 22, 2012
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              I think some of it was based on these studies:
               
               
              When I get home, I'll see if my husband has the info on the program. I believe it was on the history channel  although it may have been Animal Planet.
               
              Sherill

              From: Bill <billbird2111@...>
              To: Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 11:43 AM
              Subject: [Beekeeping] Re: Capturing a wild hive.

               
              Sherill,

              First -- I'm no scientist. I'm just a big mouth PR flack for a Republican State Senator in California and a hobbyist beekeeper who loves his honey!

              I find the results of those experiments to be rather dubious -- and I'll tell you why.

              The Africanized strains of honeybees arrived in Southern California DECADES ago. I know there are members of this very list who live in the southern part of the state and have a personal experience with them.

              If the Africanized strains really could survive the cold in our northern climes, Sherill, they would have arrived a long time ago. That's not science. It's just common sense. They've been progressing in a northerly direction ever since they were released (mistakenly) in Brazil in 1957. Not only would they have arrived by now, they'd be well established, just like they are in Southern California and much of the Southwest United States.

              The fact is -- they aren't here. I doubt they'll ever get here, unless it warms to the point where populations can be sustained.

              That's why capturing a wild hive here is such an easy trick. They're kind. They're gentle. While I have had limited experience with aggressive colonies (my first was very aggressive), I've been told that there's no comparison between aggressive Italians and the lean, mean machine that are the Africanized strains.

              Bill

              --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, Sherill Ryan <sherillynn@...> wrote:
              >
              > There was a program on TV where they did some experiments with AHB in the extreme cold and reported that they survived. That scares me to death...
              >
              >



            • Sherill Ryan
              OK, folks, the name of the program was Mutant Bees and it was on The Science Channel. If anyone has seen it, I would love to hear your thoughts on the
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 22, 2012
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                OK, folks, the name of the program was "Mutant Bees" and it was on The Science Channel. If anyone has seen it, I would love to hear your thoughts on the experiment they showed. Looked like good scientific inquiry to me but what do I know. I am only a nurse!
                 
                Sherill

                From: Bill <billbird2111@...>
                To: Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 11:43 AM
                Subject: [Beekeeping] Re: Capturing a wild hive.

                 
                Sherill,

                First -- I'm no scientist. I'm just a big mouth PR flack for a Republican State Senator in California and a hobbyist beekeeper who loves his honey!

                I find the results of those experiments to be rather dubious -- and I'll tell you why.

                The Africanized strains of honeybees arrived in Southern California DECADES ago. I know there are members of this very list who live in the southern part of the state and have a personal experience with them.

                If the Africanized strains really could survive the cold in our northern climes, Sherill, they would have arrived a long time ago. That's not science. It's just common sense. They've been progressing in a northerly direction ever since they were released (mistakenly) in Brazil in 1957. Not only would they have arrived by now, they'd be well established, just like they are in Southern California and much of the Southwest United States.

                The fact is -- they aren't here. I doubt they'll ever get here, unless it warms to the point where populations can be sustained.

                That's why capturing a wild hive here is such an easy trick. They're kind. They're gentle. While I have had limited experience with aggressive colonies (my first was very aggressive), I've been told that there's no comparison between aggressive Italians and the lean, mean machine that are the Africanized strains.

                Bill

                --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, Sherill Ryan <sherillynn@...> wrote:
                >
                > There was a program on TV where they did some experiments with AHB in the extreme cold and reported that they survived. That scares me to death...
                >
                >



              • kakerby@aol.com
                If it was an experiment that put a single hive of Africanized bees into a relatively sterile cold chamber (ie, a cold interior room, rather than a more
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 22, 2012
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                  If it was an experiment that put a single hive of Africanized bees into a relatively sterile cold chamber (ie, a cold interior room, rather than a more realistic outside environment) for a few days, as a previous email described, that experiment would be little better than an entertaining thing to do with a hive. It would by no means confirm the bees' ability to survive in colder climates.  Too many variables are unanswered - can the Africanized bees continue to successfully do hive maintenance and foraging under colder conditions?  Can they individually or collectively survive for months at those cold temps, rather than days?  Can they maintain suitable hive temperatures over long periods?  Does the queen continue to lay successfully, and do those eggs mature normally?  Do they successfully organize themselves during cold, non-flying weather and efficiently use the hive resources during that time?  Do they suffer cold stress, and/or experience increased incidence of disease or pest damage?  How well do they compete against other cold-weather-tolerant local pollinators?
                   
                  I'm with Bill - they expanded north relatively quickly in the years after their release, and then stopped.  They didn't stop arbitrarily - something kept them from proceeding into new, more northern areas.  If they could have expanded farther north, they would have.  So there's something, or possibly several somethings, that keep them from doing so.  And that "something" might change in different areas - different humidity, different diseases/pests, different competition from native pollinators, different native plants, etc.  We might not ever figure out what it is with any confidence.  But their lack of progress further north is fair evidence that something about colder climates was beyond their tolerance.
                  Kathryn Kerby
                  frogchorusfarm.com
                  Snohomish, WA
                  Ruminations - essays on the farming life at frogchorusfarm.com/weblog.html
                   
                  In a message dated 2/22/2012 11:16:38 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, sherillynn@... writes:
                   

                  OK, folks, the name of the program was "Mutant Bees" and it was on The Science Channel. If anyone has seen it, I would love to hear your thoughts on the experiment they showed. Looked like good scientific inquiry to me but what do I know. I am only a nurse!
                   
                  Sherill

                  From: Bill <billbird2111@...>
                  To: Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 11:43 AM
                  Subject: [Beekeeping] Re: Capturing a wild hive.

                   
                  Sherill,

                  First -- I'm no scientist. I'm just a big mouth PR flack for a Republican State Senator in California and a hobbyist beekeeper who loves his honey!

                  I find the results of those experiments to be rather dubious -- and I'll tell you why.

                  The Africanized strains of honeybees arrived in Southern California DECADES ago. I know there are members of this very list who live in the southern part of the state and have a personal experience with them.

                  If the Africanized strains really could survive the cold in our northern climes, Sherill, they would have arrived a long time ago. That's not science. It's just common sense. They've been progressing in a northerly direction ever since they were released (mistakenly) in Brazil in 1957. Not only would they have arrived by now, they'd be well established, just like they are in Southern California and much of the Southwest United States.

                  The fact is -- they aren't here. I doubt they'll ever get here, unless it warms to the point where populations can be sustained.

                  That's why capturing a wild hive here is such an easy trick. They're kind. They're gentle. While I have had limited experience with aggressive colonies (my first was very aggressive), I've been told that there's no comparison between aggressive Italians and the lean, mean machine that are the Africanized strains.

                  Bill

                  --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, Sherill Ryan <sherillynn@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > There was a program on TV where they did some experiments with AHB in the extreme cold and reported that they survived. That scares me to death...
                  >
                  >



                • Mike S
                  ..... putting the bees in almost what appeared to be a freezer of sorts with the temp monitored and the temp inside of the hive being monitored as well. 
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 22, 2012
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                    ..... putting the bees in almost what appeared to be a freezer of sorts with the temp monitored and the temp inside of the hive being monitored as well.  ..........     Looked like good scientific inquiry to me but what do I know.

                    I've not seen the show.  But know.  The AFB can and will survive a short period of cold.  Where the colony cannot survive is in conditions where the cold persists and there is no nectar flow.  AFBs don't store enough honey stores to survive long periods of cold like the European varieties do.  That is what limits their northern movement, a lack of stores to carry them through long periods of dearth and cold.  The way they survive dearth is to abscond and move to a new area where there is a nectar flow.  Ain't none in the northern planting zones.

                    Mike in LA
                  • Bill
                    Let me just add on, that I m not shedding a single tear that the northward migration stopped at the Tehachipi Mountain range, the dividing line between
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 23, 2012
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                      Let me just add on, that I'm not shedding a single tear that the northward migration stopped at the Tehachipi Mountain range, the dividing line between southern and central California.

                      --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, kakerby@... wrote:
                      >
                      > If it was an experiment that put a single hive of Africanized bees into a
                      > relatively sterile cold chamber (ie, a cold interior room, rather than a
                      > more realistic outside environment) for a few days, as a previous email
                      > described, that experiment would be little better than an entertaining thing to
                      > do with a hive. It would by no means confirm the bees' ability to survive
                      > in colder climates. Too many variables are unanswered - can the Africanized
                      > bees continue to successfully do hive maintenance and foraging under
                      > colder conditions? Can they individually or collectively survive for months at
                      > those cold temps, rather than days? Can they maintain suitable hive
                      > temperatures over long periods? Does the queen continue to lay successfully, and
                      > do those eggs mature normally? Do they successfully organize themselves
                      > during cold, non-flying weather and efficiently use the hive resources
                      > during that time? Do they suffer cold stress, and/or experience increased
                      > incidence of disease or pest damage? How well do they compete against other
                      > cold-weather-tolerant local pollinators?
                      >
                      > I'm with Bill - they expanded north relatively quickly in the years after
                      > their release, and then stopped. They didn't stop arbitrarily - something
                      > kept them from proceeding into new, more northern areas. If they could
                      > have expanded farther north, they would have. So there's something, or
                      > possibly several somethings, that keep them from doing so. And that "something"
                      > might change in different areas - different humidity, different
                      > diseases/pests, different competition from native pollinators, different native
                      > plants, etc. We might not ever figure out what it is with any confidence. But
                      > their lack of progress further north is fair evidence that something about
                      > colder climates was beyond their tolerance.
                      > Kathryn Kerby
                      > frogchorusfarm.com
                      > Snohomish, WA
                      > Ruminations - essays on the farming life at frogchorusfarm.com/weblog.html
                      >
                      >
                      > In a message dated 2/22/2012 11:16:38 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                      > sherillynn@... writes:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > OK, folks, the name of the program was "Mutant Bees" and it was on The
                      > Science Channel. If anyone has seen it, I would love to hear your thoughts on
                      > the experiment they showed. Looked like good scientific inquiry to me but
                      > what do I know. I am only a nurse!
                      >
                      > Sherill
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: Bill <billbird2111@...>
                      > To: Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 11:43 AM
                      > Subject: [Beekeeping] Re: Capturing a wild hive.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Sherill,
                      >
                      > First -- I'm no scientist. I'm just a big mouth PR flack for a Republican
                      > State Senator in California and a hobbyist beekeeper who loves his honey!
                      >
                      > I find the results of those experiments to be rather dubious -- and I'll
                      > tell you why.
                      >
                      > The Africanized strains of honeybees arrived in Southern California
                      > DECADES ago. I know there are members of this very list who live in the southern
                      > part of the state and have a personal experience with them.
                      >
                      > If the Africanized strains really could survive the cold in our northern
                      > climes, Sherill, they would have arrived a long time ago. That's not
                      > science. It's just common sense. They've been progressing in a northerly direction
                      > ever since they were released (mistakenly) in Brazil in 1957. Not only
                      > would they have arrived by now, they'd be well established, just like they are
                      > in Southern California and much of the Southwest United States.
                      >
                      > The fact is -- they aren't here. I doubt they'll ever get here, unless it
                      > warms to the point where populations can be sustained.
                      >
                      > That's why capturing a wild hive here is such an easy trick. They're kind.
                      > They're gentle. While I have had limited experience with aggressive
                      > colonies (my first was very aggressive), I've been told that there's no
                      > comparison between aggressive Italians and the lean, mean machine that are the
                      > Africanized strains.
                      >
                      > Bill
                      >
                      > --- In _Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com) ,
                      > Sherill Ryan <sherillynn@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > There was a program on TV where they did some experiments with AHB in
                      > the extreme cold and reported that they survived. That scares me to death...
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Bill
                      I knew I was going to hear from you at some point, Mike. Thanks for chiming in. It s almost swarm season up here. I really blew it big time by giving away my
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 23, 2012
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                        I knew I was going to hear from you at some point, Mike. Thanks for chiming in.

                        It's almost swarm season up here. I really blew it big time by giving away my swarms last year. The last swarm robbed me of a highly successful line of wild colony queens.

                        If that line swarms again, which I believe it will, I want the swarm.

                        --- In Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, Mike S <mws1112004@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > ..... putting the bees in almost what appeared to be a freezer of sorts
                        > with the temp monitored and the temp inside of the hive being monitored
                        > as well.  ..........     Looked like good scientific inquiry to me but what do I know.
                        >
                        > I've not seen the show.  But know.  The AFB can and will survive a short period of cold.  Where the colony cannot survive is in conditions where the cold persists and there is no nectar flow.  AFBs don't store enough honey stores to survive long periods of cold like the European varieties do.  That is what limits their northern movement, a lack of stores to carry them through long periods of dearth and cold.  The way they survive dearth is to abscond and move to a new area where there is a nectar flow.  Ain't none in the northern planting zones.
                        >
                        > Mike in LA
                        >
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