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Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] L150?

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  • Lineone
    Hi Pete Whilst on this subject have noticed the ‘Singleton Z255/L159.2 derived’. Quote: Hi Peter, Britains DNA tested me positive for S219 (which I believe
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 19 8:26 AM
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      Hi Pete
       
      Whilst on this subject have noticed the ‘Singleton Z255/L159.2 derived’. Quote:
       
      Hi Peter,

      Britains DNA tested me positive for S219 (which I believe is Z255) and S169 (L159). Here is the complete string of SNPs:

      M89+ M213+ M9+ P128+ M526+ M74+ M173+ S1+ M269+ S3+ S141+ S349+ S127+ S128+ S116+ S145+ S219+ S169+

      Do you have knowledge of any other Singleton links with this Haplogroup?

      Best Regards,

      Martin Singleton
       
      Do not have the Kit number!
       
      Peter D Beattie
       

       
      Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 2:22 PM
      Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] L150?
       
       

      Paul
      Glad to see I am not alone. With all the new SNPs being discussed I thought  there was a new one.


      Pete B (my phone)

      On Apr 19, 2013, at 8:38 AM, pabloburns@... wrote:

       

      Pete,
      Sorry. You are right that I meant L159.2 and not L150. I am typo-challenged and often hit the key next to the one I am aiming at.
      Regarding Coyle (90790) I notice that he has 435=12 and so joins the list of surnames I mentioned April 11th as follows:
      "Since L159.2 is considered shaky, and we have yet to determine a better SNP to divide Z255, I wonder if an STR can be used, such as DYS435. Of the 75 Z255 project members who have tested for it, 25 have the value of 12 and the other two-thirds have 11 (one 10). All of the 13 Byrne project members are 12 (11 Byrne and two NPEs), plus a McHale, Megeehee, Grant (2), Spence, MacKenzie, Brock, Wilson, Cotton, Fields, Cleary, and Welsh."
      PaulB

    • martinsingleton601
      Hi Peter, I think that my test kit number is BD9835. Best Wishes, Martin Singleton
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 21 1:12 PM
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        Hi Peter,

        I think that my test kit number is BD9835.

        Best Wishes,

        Martin Singleton

        --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, "Lineone" <pdbeattie@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Pete
        >
        > Whilst on this subject have noticed the ‘Singleton Z255/L159.2 derived’. Quote:
        >
        > Hi Peter,
        >
        > Britains DNA tested me positive for S219 (which I believe is Z255) and S169 (L159). Here is the complete string of SNPs:
        >
        > M89+ M213+ M9+ P128+ M526+ M74+ M173+ S1+ M269+ S3+ S141+ S349+ S127+ S128+ S116+ S145+ S219+ S169+
        >
        > Do you have knowledge of any other Singleton links with this Haplogroup?
        >
        > Best Regards,
        >
        > Martin Singleton
        >
        > Do not have the Kit number!
        >
        > Peter D Beattie
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > From: Pete Beatty
        > Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 2:22 PM
        > To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] L150?
        >
        >
        >
        > Paul
        > Glad to see I am not alone. With all the new SNPs being discussed I thought there was a new one.
        >
        >
        > Pete B (my phone)
        >
        > On Apr 19, 2013, at 8:38 AM, pabloburns@... wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Pete,
        > Sorry. You are right that I meant L159.2 and not L150. I am typo-challenged and often hit the key next to the one I am aiming at.
        > Regarding Coyle (90790) I notice that he has 435=12 and so joins the list of surnames I mentioned April 11th as follows:
        > "Since L159.2 is considered shaky, and we have yet to determine a better SNP to divide Z255, I wonder if an STR can be used, such as DYS435. Of the 75 Z255 project members who have tested for it, 25 have the value of 12 and the other two-thirds have 11 (one 10). All of the 13 Byrne project members are 12 (11 Byrne and two NPEs), plus a McHale, Megeehee, Grant (2), Spence, MacKenzie, Brock, Wilson, Cotton, Fields, Cleary, and Welsh."
        > PaulB
        >
      • Pete Beatty
        John, Sorry it took so long to get back. I was pulled away by another project and misplaced your email. Looking at your markers, I can clearly say you are a
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 22 6:11 AM
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          John,

          Sorry it took so long to get back.  I was pulled away by another project and misplaced your email.

           

          Looking at your markers, I can clearly say you are a close match to what I am currently calling the 255a group.  In comparing your data to the groups modal, your GD information is 1@12, 2@25, 2@37, 4@67, and 9@111.

           

          Looking further, I did find a group, which currently has three members (all Beatty or Beattie) and your GD is 2@37 with the group.  The variances at 37 markers are 449 (30 vs 29) and CDYa = 38 vs 37.  Only two have tested at 67 markers and there your difference is 534 = 14 vs 15.

           

          Pete

          (Beatty DNA Project)

           

          From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Coyle
          Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 8:29 PM
          To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] L150?

           

           

          Pete,

          Not sure why I will check the access settings but here is a copy. Would certainly appreciate any insights you might have

          Questions let me know

           

          John



        • John W.Coyle
          Pete, Thanks so much for taking a look it is certainly interesting results. While the small n in the 255a 67 markers make it a bit more difficult
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 23 4:47 AM
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            Pete,

            Thanks so much for taking a look it is certainly interesting results. While the small n in the 255a 67 markers make it a bit more difficult interpretation. 

            I guess you are looking to separate the Z255 group using a different method then the L159.2?

            Again many thanks

            John

            On Apr 22, 2013, at 9:11 AM, Pete Beatty <pete.beatty@...> wrote:

             

            John,

            Sorry it took so long to get back.  I was pulled away by another project and misplaced your email.

             

            Looking at your markers, I can clearly say you are a close match to what I am currently calling the 255a group.  In comparing your data to the groups modal, your GD information is 1@12, 2@25, 2@37, 4@67, and 9@111.

             

            Looking further, I did find a group, which currently has three members (all Beatty or Beattie) and your GD is 2@37 with the group.  The variances at 37 markers are 449 (30 vs 29) and CDYa = 38 vs 37.  Only two have tested at 67 markers and there your difference is 534 = 14 vs 15.

             

            Pete

            (Beatty DNA Project)

             

            From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Coyle
            Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 8:29 PM
            To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] L150?

             

             

            Pete,

            Not sure why I will check the access settings but here is a copy. Would certainly appreciate any insights you might have

            Questions let me know

             

            John



          • craig
            16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe Anglicized Irish Surname Page Header Gastoun 290 Gastún Gastun 290 Gastún
            Message 5 of 18 , May 10, 2013
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              16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe

              Anglicized Irish Surname

              Page

              Header

              Gastoun

              290

              Gastún

              Gastun

              290

              Gastún

               

              http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/SortedByAnglicizedSpelling_E.shtml

               

              I am wondering how far back Gastún existed as an Irish name? Is it more likely an import from France during the Norman period? Most etymologies have Gaston deriving from French or German.

               

              We know that there are (or at least, were) Gastouns in Scotland but we haven't been able to establish a connection with the 17th century Antrim Gastons.

               

              Craig

            • Bernie Cullen
              According to www.irishtimes.com/ancestor, Gaston was in Ireland by the 13th century: Gaston: cuíosach líonmhar: Aontroim. Sloinne Albanach agus Sasanach ón
              Message 6 of 18 , May 10, 2013
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                According to www.irishtimes.com/ancestor, Gaston was in Ireland by the 13th century:
                Gaston: cuíosach líonmhar: Aontroim. Sloinne Albanach agus Sasanach ón 17 céad ach bhí sé in Éirinn sa 13 céad.

                Gaston: relatively abundant: Antrim. Scottish and English surname from the 17th century, but it was in Ireland in the 13th century.

                When you're going that far back, I think you have to consider that the surname may not be tracing the same line as the Y-DNA. So even if the name is French/Norman, at some point Anglo-Saxon, Scottish or Irish DNA may have been introduced into the Y-DNA line, whether just from a different way of passing down surnames or an actual adoption etc.

                You have already proven that many (most?) Gastons in the US and Canada are from the same paternal line and related to Gastons now in Northern Ireland (or recently from Northern Ireland). That's a great success and more than most surname DNA projects have been able to achieve. Hopefully eventually Y-DNA testing will give a definite answer about which other families are the closest relatives of the Gastons and that might answer the French/non-French question. But it will be a while.

                Bernie
              • Paul Ó Duḃṫaiġ
                Woulfe has the following to say about the name: -- GASTÚN—VIII —*Gastun, Gastoun*,
                Message 7 of 18 , May 10, 2013
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                  Woulfe has the following to say about the name:

                  --
                  GASTÚN—VIIIGastun, Gastoun, Gaston; 'son of Gaston,' (a Norman personal name apparently). The surname in Ireland dates back to the 13th century.
                  --

                  The Cambro-Norman knightly class were french speaking, as a result Early-Modern Irish has a large number of loan words form Norman-french. For example the word 'gasúr' in Irish is derived from the old-french 'garçun', in Irish it can mean "boy" or more specifically in West of Ireland "Children". 

                  Likewise the word damhsa (dance) is a borrowing from French as well into Irish.

                  -Paul
                  (DF41+) 


                  On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 4:31 PM, craig <craigpgaston@...> wrote:
                   


                  16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe

                  Anglicized Irish Surname

                  Page

                  Header

                  Gastoun

                  290

                  Gastún

                  Gastun

                  290

                  Gastún

                   

                  http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/SortedByAnglicizedSpelling_E.shtml

                   

                  I am wondering how far back Gastún existed as an Irish name? Is it more likely an import from France during the Norman period? Most etymologies have Gaston deriving from French or German.

                   

                  We know that there are (or at least, were) Gastouns in Scotland but we haven't been able to establish a connection with the 17th century Antrim Gastons.

                   

                  Craig


                • craig
                  Thank you both for your informative replies, Bernie and Paul. Since our Antrim Gaston lineage is very close to the core Leinster haplotype it would have been
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 10, 2013
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                    Thank you both for your informative replies, Bernie and Paul. Since our Antrim Gaston lineage is very close to the core Leinster haplotype it would have been interesting to learn that the Gastún name originated in Ireland. Our persistent legend of a French origin is still quite plausible, although it has a Jean Gaston emigrating from France to Scotland in the early to mid 1600s and later, with several sons, to Antrim. If this is true, the only way to reconcile it with our close match to the Leinster group is to assume that there have been some back and forth migrations between Ireland and France.

                    Craig


                    --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, Paul Ã" DuḃṫaiÄ¡ <pduffy81@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Woulfe has the following to say about the name:
                    >
                    > --
                    > GASTÚN—VIII<http://www.libraryireland.com/names/synopsis-types-surnames.php>
                    > —*Gastun, Gastoun*, Gaston; 'son of Gaston,' (a Norman personal name
                    > apparently). The surname in Ireland dates back to the 13th century.
                    > --
                    >
                    > The Cambro-Norman knightly class were french speaking, as a result
                    > Early-Modern Irish has a large number of loan words form Norman-french. For
                    > example the word 'gasúr' in Irish is derived from the old-french 'garçun',
                    > in Irish it can mean "boy" or more specifically in West of Ireland
                    > "Children".
                    >
                    > Likewise the word damhsa (dance) is a borrowing from French as well into
                    > Irish.
                    >
                    > -Paul
                    > (DF41+)
                    >
                    >
                    > On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 4:31 PM, craig <craigpgaston@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > **
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > *16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe*
                    > >
                    > > Anglicized Irish Surname
                    > >
                    > > Page
                    > >
                    > > Header
                    > >
                    > > Gastoun
                    > >
                    > > 290
                    > >
                    > > Gastún
                    > >
                    > > Gastun
                    > >
                    > > 290
                    > >
                    > > Gastún
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/SortedByAnglicizedSpelling_E.shtml
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I am wondering how far back Gastún existed as an Irish name? Is it more
                    > > likely an import from France during the Norman period? Most etymologies
                    > > have Gaston deriving from French or German.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > We know that there are (or at least, were) Gastouns in Scotland but we
                    > > haven't been able to establish a connection with the 17th century Antrim
                    > > Gastons.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Craig
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Lineone
                    Hi Bernie Not to forget that the Beatty/Beattie surname (Z255) also originates in Dumfriesshire Scotland in the 13th Century and they held landgrants from the
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 11, 2013
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                      Hi Bernie
                       
                      Not to forget that the Beatty/Beattie surname (Z255) also originates in Dumfriesshire Scotland in the 13th Century and they held landgrants from the King of Scotland in Eskdale North of Langholm. They were also border reivers in the 16th or earlier and rode with the Armstrongs a major clan.
                       
                      Peter D Beattie
                       
                       
                      Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 4:41 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] 16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe
                       
                       

                      According to www.irishtimes.com/ancestor, Gaston was in Ireland by the 13th century:

                      Gaston: cuíosach líonmhar: Aontroim. Sloinne Albanach agus Sasanach ón 17 céad ach bhí sé in Éirinn sa 13 céad.
                       
                      Gaston: relatively abundant: Antrim. Scottish and English surname from the 17th century, but it was in Ireland in the 13th century.
                       
                      When you're going that far back, I think you have to consider that the surname may not be tracing the same line as the Y-DNA. So even if the name is French/Norman, at some point Anglo-Saxon, Scottish or Irish DNA may have been introduced into the Y-DNA line, whether just from a different way of passing down surnames or an actual adoption etc.
                       
                      You have already proven that many (most?) Gastons in the US and Canada are from the same paternal line and related to Gastons now in Northern Ireland (or recently from Northern Ireland). That's a great success and more than most surname DNA projects have been able to achieve. Hopefully eventually Y-DNA testing will give a definite answer about which other families are the closest relatives of the Gastons and that might answer the French/non-French question. But it will be a while.
                       
                      Bernie
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