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Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] L150?

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  • John Coyle
    Pete, Not sure why I will check the access settings but here is a copy. Would certainly appreciate any insights you might have Questions let me know John ...
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 18, 2013
      Pete,

      Not sure why I will check the access settings but here is a copy. Would certainly appreciate any insights you might have
      Questions let me know

      John

      -------
      PANEL 1 (1-12)
      Marker DYS393 DYS390 DYS19** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II***
      Value 13 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 12 14 13 30
      PANEL 2 (13-25)
      Marker DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464
      Value 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 18 30 15-15-17-17
      PANEL 3 (26-37)
      Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
      Value 11 11 19-23 16 15 18 17 38-39 11 12
      PANEL 4 (38-47)
      Marker DYS531 DYS578 DYF395S1 DYS590 DYS537 DYS641 DYS472 DYF406S1 DYS511
      Value 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10
      PANEL 4 (48-60)
      Marker DYS425 DYS413 DYS557 DYS594 DYS436 DYS490 DYS534 DYS450 DYS444 DYS481 DYS520 DYS446
      Value 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 14
      PANEL 4 (61-67)
      Marker DYS617 DYS568 DYS487 DYS572 DYS640 DYS492 DYS565
      Value 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
      PANEL 5 (68-75)
      Marker DYS710 DYS485 DYS632 DYS495 DYS540 DYS714 DYS716 DYS717
      Value 36 15 9 16 12 25 26 19
      PANEL 5 (76-85)
      Marker DYS505 DYS556 DYS549 DYS589 DYS522 DYS494 DYS533 DYS636 DYS575 DYS638
      Value 12 11 13 12 12 9 13 12 10 11
      PANEL 5 (86-93)
      Marker DYS462 DYS452 DYS445 Y-GATA-A10 DYS463 DYS441 Y-GGAAT-1B07 DYS525
      Value 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 11
      PANEL 5 (94-102)
      Marker DYS712 DYS593 DYS650 DYS532 DYS715 DYS504 DYS513 DYS561 DYS552
      Value 20 15 20 13 24 17 13 15 24
      PANEL 5 (103-111)
      Marker DYS726 DYS635 DYS587 DYS643 DYS497 DYS510 DYS434 DYS461 DYS435
      Value 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 12



      On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Pete Beatty <pete.beatty@...> wrote:
       

      Peter

      I saw it and tried to find him in the Beatty/Byrnes project, at least kit#  90790 was not found .  No luck.

       

      John,

      If you are listening, can you send me a copy your 111 markers?  I would like to do e quick check against the Beatty DNA project.

       

      Pete

       


    • burnspaulj
      Pete, Sorry. You are right that I meant L159.2 and not L150. I am typo-challenged and often hit the key next to the one I am aiming at. Regarding Coyle (90790)
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 19, 2013
        Pete,
        Sorry. You are right that I meant L159.2 and not L150. I am typo-challenged and often hit the key next to the one I am aiming at.
        Regarding Coyle (90790) I notice that he has 435=12 and so joins the list of surnames I mentioned April 11th as follows:
        "Since L159.2 is considered shaky, and we have yet to determine a better SNP to divide Z255, I wonder if an STR can be used, such as DYS435. Of the 75 Z255 project members who have tested for it, 25 have the value of 12 and the other two-thirds have 11 (one 10). All of the 13 Byrne project members are 12 (11 Byrne and two NPEs), plus a McHale, Megeehee, Grant (2), Spence, MacKenzie, Brock, Wilson, Cotton, Fields, Cleary, and Welsh."
        PaulB
      • Pete Beatty
        Paul Glad to see I am not alone. With all the new SNPs being discussed I thought there was a new one. Pete B (my phone)
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 19, 2013
          Paul
          Glad to see I am not alone. With all the new SNPs being discussed I thought  there was a new one. 


          Pete B (my phone)

          On Apr 19, 2013, at 8:38 AM, pabloburns@... wrote:

           

          Pete,
          Sorry. You are right that I meant L159.2 and not L150. I am typo-challenged and often hit the key next to the one I am aiming at.
          Regarding Coyle (90790) I notice that he has 435=12 and so joins the list of surnames I mentioned April 11th as follows:
          "Since L159.2 is considered shaky, and we have yet to determine a better SNP to divide Z255, I wonder if an STR can be used, such as DYS435. Of the 75 Z255 project members who have tested for it, 25 have the value of 12 and the other two-thirds have 11 (one 10). All of the 13 Byrne project members are 12 (11 Byrne and two NPEs), plus a McHale, Megeehee, Grant (2), Spence, MacKenzie, Brock, Wilson, Cotton, Fields, Cleary, and Welsh."
          PaulB

        • Lineone
          Hi Pete Whilst on this subject have noticed the ‘Singleton Z255/L159.2 derived’. Quote: Hi Peter, Britains DNA tested me positive for S219 (which I believe
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 19, 2013
            Hi Pete
             
            Whilst on this subject have noticed the ‘Singleton Z255/L159.2 derived’. Quote:
             
            Hi Peter,

            Britains DNA tested me positive for S219 (which I believe is Z255) and S169 (L159). Here is the complete string of SNPs:

            M89+ M213+ M9+ P128+ M526+ M74+ M173+ S1+ M269+ S3+ S141+ S349+ S127+ S128+ S116+ S145+ S219+ S169+

            Do you have knowledge of any other Singleton links with this Haplogroup?

            Best Regards,

            Martin Singleton
             
            Do not have the Kit number!
             
            Peter D Beattie
             

             
            Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 2:22 PM
            Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] L150?
             
             

            Paul
            Glad to see I am not alone. With all the new SNPs being discussed I thought  there was a new one.


            Pete B (my phone)

            On Apr 19, 2013, at 8:38 AM, pabloburns@... wrote:

             

            Pete,
            Sorry. You are right that I meant L159.2 and not L150. I am typo-challenged and often hit the key next to the one I am aiming at.
            Regarding Coyle (90790) I notice that he has 435=12 and so joins the list of surnames I mentioned April 11th as follows:
            "Since L159.2 is considered shaky, and we have yet to determine a better SNP to divide Z255, I wonder if an STR can be used, such as DYS435. Of the 75 Z255 project members who have tested for it, 25 have the value of 12 and the other two-thirds have 11 (one 10). All of the 13 Byrne project members are 12 (11 Byrne and two NPEs), plus a McHale, Megeehee, Grant (2), Spence, MacKenzie, Brock, Wilson, Cotton, Fields, Cleary, and Welsh."
            PaulB

          • martinsingleton601
            Hi Peter, I think that my test kit number is BD9835. Best Wishes, Martin Singleton
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 21, 2013
              Hi Peter,

              I think that my test kit number is BD9835.

              Best Wishes,

              Martin Singleton

              --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, "Lineone" <pdbeattie@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Pete
              >
              > Whilst on this subject have noticed the ‘Singleton Z255/L159.2 derived’. Quote:
              >
              > Hi Peter,
              >
              > Britains DNA tested me positive for S219 (which I believe is Z255) and S169 (L159). Here is the complete string of SNPs:
              >
              > M89+ M213+ M9+ P128+ M526+ M74+ M173+ S1+ M269+ S3+ S141+ S349+ S127+ S128+ S116+ S145+ S219+ S169+
              >
              > Do you have knowledge of any other Singleton links with this Haplogroup?
              >
              > Best Regards,
              >
              > Martin Singleton
              >
              > Do not have the Kit number!
              >
              > Peter D Beattie
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > From: Pete Beatty
              > Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 2:22 PM
              > To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] L150?
              >
              >
              >
              > Paul
              > Glad to see I am not alone. With all the new SNPs being discussed I thought there was a new one.
              >
              >
              > Pete B (my phone)
              >
              > On Apr 19, 2013, at 8:38 AM, pabloburns@... wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Pete,
              > Sorry. You are right that I meant L159.2 and not L150. I am typo-challenged and often hit the key next to the one I am aiming at.
              > Regarding Coyle (90790) I notice that he has 435=12 and so joins the list of surnames I mentioned April 11th as follows:
              > "Since L159.2 is considered shaky, and we have yet to determine a better SNP to divide Z255, I wonder if an STR can be used, such as DYS435. Of the 75 Z255 project members who have tested for it, 25 have the value of 12 and the other two-thirds have 11 (one 10). All of the 13 Byrne project members are 12 (11 Byrne and two NPEs), plus a McHale, Megeehee, Grant (2), Spence, MacKenzie, Brock, Wilson, Cotton, Fields, Cleary, and Welsh."
              > PaulB
              >
            • Pete Beatty
              John, Sorry it took so long to get back. I was pulled away by another project and misplaced your email. Looking at your markers, I can clearly say you are a
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 22, 2013

                John,

                Sorry it took so long to get back.  I was pulled away by another project and misplaced your email.

                 

                Looking at your markers, I can clearly say you are a close match to what I am currently calling the 255a group.  In comparing your data to the groups modal, your GD information is 1@12, 2@25, 2@37, 4@67, and 9@111.

                 

                Looking further, I did find a group, which currently has three members (all Beatty or Beattie) and your GD is 2@37 with the group.  The variances at 37 markers are 449 (30 vs 29) and CDYa = 38 vs 37.  Only two have tested at 67 markers and there your difference is 534 = 14 vs 15.

                 

                Pete

                (Beatty DNA Project)

                 

                From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Coyle
                Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 8:29 PM
                To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] L150?

                 

                 

                Pete,

                Not sure why I will check the access settings but here is a copy. Would certainly appreciate any insights you might have

                Questions let me know

                 

                John



              • John W.Coyle
                Pete, Thanks so much for taking a look it is certainly interesting results. While the small n in the 255a 67 markers make it a bit more difficult
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 23, 2013
                  Pete,

                  Thanks so much for taking a look it is certainly interesting results. While the small n in the 255a 67 markers make it a bit more difficult interpretation. 

                  I guess you are looking to separate the Z255 group using a different method then the L159.2?

                  Again many thanks

                  John

                  On Apr 22, 2013, at 9:11 AM, Pete Beatty <pete.beatty@...> wrote:

                   

                  John,

                  Sorry it took so long to get back.  I was pulled away by another project and misplaced your email.

                   

                  Looking at your markers, I can clearly say you are a close match to what I am currently calling the 255a group.  In comparing your data to the groups modal, your GD information is 1@12, 2@25, 2@37, 4@67, and 9@111.

                   

                  Looking further, I did find a group, which currently has three members (all Beatty or Beattie) and your GD is 2@37 with the group.  The variances at 37 markers are 449 (30 vs 29) and CDYa = 38 vs 37.  Only two have tested at 67 markers and there your difference is 534 = 14 vs 15.

                   

                  Pete

                  (Beatty DNA Project)

                   

                  From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Coyle
                  Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 8:29 PM
                  To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] L150?

                   

                   

                  Pete,

                  Not sure why I will check the access settings but here is a copy. Would certainly appreciate any insights you might have

                  Questions let me know

                   

                  John



                • craig
                  16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe Anglicized Irish Surname Page Header Gastoun 290 Gastún Gastun 290 Gastún
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 10, 2013

                    16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe

                    Anglicized Irish Surname

                    Page

                    Header

                    Gastoun

                    290

                    Gastún

                    Gastun

                    290

                    Gastún

                     

                    http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/SortedByAnglicizedSpelling_E.shtml

                     

                    I am wondering how far back Gastún existed as an Irish name? Is it more likely an import from France during the Norman period? Most etymologies have Gaston deriving from French or German.

                     

                    We know that there are (or at least, were) Gastouns in Scotland but we haven't been able to establish a connection with the 17th century Antrim Gastons.

                     

                    Craig

                  • Bernie Cullen
                    According to www.irishtimes.com/ancestor, Gaston was in Ireland by the 13th century: Gaston: cuíosach líonmhar: Aontroim. Sloinne Albanach agus Sasanach ón
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 10, 2013
                      According to www.irishtimes.com/ancestor, Gaston was in Ireland by the 13th century:
                      Gaston: cuíosach líonmhar: Aontroim. Sloinne Albanach agus Sasanach ón 17 céad ach bhí sé in Éirinn sa 13 céad.

                      Gaston: relatively abundant: Antrim. Scottish and English surname from the 17th century, but it was in Ireland in the 13th century.

                      When you're going that far back, I think you have to consider that the surname may not be tracing the same line as the Y-DNA. So even if the name is French/Norman, at some point Anglo-Saxon, Scottish or Irish DNA may have been introduced into the Y-DNA line, whether just from a different way of passing down surnames or an actual adoption etc.

                      You have already proven that many (most?) Gastons in the US and Canada are from the same paternal line and related to Gastons now in Northern Ireland (or recently from Northern Ireland). That's a great success and more than most surname DNA projects have been able to achieve. Hopefully eventually Y-DNA testing will give a definite answer about which other families are the closest relatives of the Gastons and that might answer the French/non-French question. But it will be a while.

                      Bernie
                    • Paul Ó Duḃṫaiġ
                      Woulfe has the following to say about the name: -- GASTÚN—VIII —*Gastun, Gastoun*,
                      Message 10 of 18 , May 10, 2013
                        Woulfe has the following to say about the name:

                        --
                        GASTÚN—VIIIGastun, Gastoun, Gaston; 'son of Gaston,' (a Norman personal name apparently). The surname in Ireland dates back to the 13th century.
                        --

                        The Cambro-Norman knightly class were french speaking, as a result Early-Modern Irish has a large number of loan words form Norman-french. For example the word 'gasúr' in Irish is derived from the old-french 'garçun', in Irish it can mean "boy" or more specifically in West of Ireland "Children". 

                        Likewise the word damhsa (dance) is a borrowing from French as well into Irish.

                        -Paul
                        (DF41+) 


                        On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 4:31 PM, craig <craigpgaston@...> wrote:
                         


                        16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe

                        Anglicized Irish Surname

                        Page

                        Header

                        Gastoun

                        290

                        Gastún

                        Gastun

                        290

                        Gastún

                         

                        http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/SortedByAnglicizedSpelling_E.shtml

                         

                        I am wondering how far back Gastún existed as an Irish name? Is it more likely an import from France during the Norman period? Most etymologies have Gaston deriving from French or German.

                         

                        We know that there are (or at least, were) Gastouns in Scotland but we haven't been able to establish a connection with the 17th century Antrim Gastons.

                         

                        Craig


                      • craig
                        Thank you both for your informative replies, Bernie and Paul. Since our Antrim Gaston lineage is very close to the core Leinster haplotype it would have been
                        Message 11 of 18 , May 10, 2013
                          Thank you both for your informative replies, Bernie and Paul. Since our Antrim Gaston lineage is very close to the core Leinster haplotype it would have been interesting to learn that the Gastún name originated in Ireland. Our persistent legend of a French origin is still quite plausible, although it has a Jean Gaston emigrating from France to Scotland in the early to mid 1600s and later, with several sons, to Antrim. If this is true, the only way to reconcile it with our close match to the Leinster group is to assume that there have been some back and forth migrations between Ireland and France.

                          Craig


                          --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, Paul Ã" DuḃṫaiÄ¡ <pduffy81@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Woulfe has the following to say about the name:
                          >
                          > --
                          > GASTÚN—VIII<http://www.libraryireland.com/names/synopsis-types-surnames.php>
                          > —*Gastun, Gastoun*, Gaston; 'son of Gaston,' (a Norman personal name
                          > apparently). The surname in Ireland dates back to the 13th century.
                          > --
                          >
                          > The Cambro-Norman knightly class were french speaking, as a result
                          > Early-Modern Irish has a large number of loan words form Norman-french. For
                          > example the word 'gasúr' in Irish is derived from the old-french 'garçun',
                          > in Irish it can mean "boy" or more specifically in West of Ireland
                          > "Children".
                          >
                          > Likewise the word damhsa (dance) is a borrowing from French as well into
                          > Irish.
                          >
                          > -Paul
                          > (DF41+)
                          >
                          >
                          > On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 4:31 PM, craig <craigpgaston@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > **
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > *16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe*
                          > >
                          > > Anglicized Irish Surname
                          > >
                          > > Page
                          > >
                          > > Header
                          > >
                          > > Gastoun
                          > >
                          > > 290
                          > >
                          > > Gastún
                          > >
                          > > Gastun
                          > >
                          > > 290
                          > >
                          > > Gastún
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/SortedByAnglicizedSpelling_E.shtml
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > I am wondering how far back Gastún existed as an Irish name? Is it more
                          > > likely an import from France during the Norman period? Most etymologies
                          > > have Gaston deriving from French or German.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > We know that there are (or at least, were) Gastouns in Scotland but we
                          > > haven't been able to establish a connection with the 17th century Antrim
                          > > Gastons.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Craig
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Lineone
                          Hi Bernie Not to forget that the Beatty/Beattie surname (Z255) also originates in Dumfriesshire Scotland in the 13th Century and they held landgrants from the
                          Message 12 of 18 , May 11, 2013
                            Hi Bernie
                             
                            Not to forget that the Beatty/Beattie surname (Z255) also originates in Dumfriesshire Scotland in the 13th Century and they held landgrants from the King of Scotland in Eskdale North of Langholm. They were also border reivers in the 16th or earlier and rode with the Armstrongs a major clan.
                             
                            Peter D Beattie
                             
                             
                            Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 4:41 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] 16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe
                             
                             

                            According to www.irishtimes.com/ancestor, Gaston was in Ireland by the 13th century:

                            Gaston: cuíosach líonmhar: Aontroim. Sloinne Albanach agus Sasanach ón 17 céad ach bhí sé in Éirinn sa 13 céad.
                             
                            Gaston: relatively abundant: Antrim. Scottish and English surname from the 17th century, but it was in Ireland in the 13th century.
                             
                            When you're going that far back, I think you have to consider that the surname may not be tracing the same line as the Y-DNA. So even if the name is French/Norman, at some point Anglo-Saxon, Scottish or Irish DNA may have been introduced into the Y-DNA line, whether just from a different way of passing down surnames or an actual adoption etc.
                             
                            You have already proven that many (most?) Gastons in the US and Canada are from the same paternal line and related to Gastons now in Northern Ireland (or recently from Northern Ireland). That's a great success and more than most surname DNA projects have been able to achieve. Hopefully eventually Y-DNA testing will give a definite answer about which other families are the closest relatives of the Gastons and that might answer the French/non-French question. But it will be a while.
                             
                            Bernie
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