Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Z255 bounderies

Expand Messages
  • duckdawgnh
    First time I ve checked in for a while only to find myself a topic of conversation! I d be more than happy to test something else if it s helpful. Jerry
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 4, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      First time I've checked in for a while only to find myself a topic of conversation!

      I'd be more than happy to test something else if it's helpful.

      Jerry Nicholson

      --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Beaty" <ecbeaty@...> wrote:
      >
      > Mike,
      >
      >
      >
      > The MRCA of Beatty Group 01 is different from the R-L21 modal haplotype
      > according to the table below except that at the 2 CDY markers the Beattys
      > have elevated values (variable). It has been quite a while since this MRCA
      > lived and many of his descendants have had mutations. Nicholson only matches
      > 3 of the 5 markers, and that makes him questionable as a descendant. I
      > believe that Les uses a genetic distance criterion and it works well to
      > select Beattys who are in Group 01.
      >
      >
      >
      > Marker Beatty R-L21
      > DYS389-1 >= 14 <=13
      > DYS448 <= 18 >=19
      >
      > DYS442 = 11 >=12
      > DYS446 >= 14 <=13
      > DYS557 >= 17 <=16
      >
      >
      >
      > The surprise is that a man from another haplogroup should get even close to
      > the Beatties. In the BBC we have many men who could be in the Beatty family
      > and we have no clean way to tell which ones are.
      >
      >
      >
      > --Earl
      >
      >
      >
      > From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike W
      > Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 4:45 PM
      > To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Z255 bounderies
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Earl and Les,
      > What are the STR values that constitute a firm fit for the group ?
      >
      > Mike W
      >
      > On Feb 26, 2012 3:38 PM, "Earl Beaty" <ecbeaty@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Peter and Pete,
      >
      >
      >
      > We now have 6 Beattys who are L159.1+ and 3 of them are Z255+. These are all
      > the Beattys who have been tested at these SNPs. I would be pleased if we
      > could get a few more tests to confirm the pattern.
      >
      >
      >
      > A problem is Gerald Nicholson, Kit 150687. He has joined the Beatty Project
      > and Les has ruled that he is in Group 01. I agree that his STR haplotype is
      > reasonably close, but he is L159.2-. Something is not fitting as expected.
      >
      >
      >
      > --Earl
      >
      >
      >
      > From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of peter.beattie2
      > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:19 PM
      > To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Z255 bounderies
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi Pete
      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks for joining the party that makes us 01 Beatty Group pretty firm. It
      > would be interesting what the other Beatty family groups are if only they
      > would submit themselves for deep clade testing.
      >
      > I am on the lookout for any 'orphaned L159.2' testees!
      >
      > Regards
      >
      >
      >
      > Peter D
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      >
      > From: Pete Beatty <mailto:pete.beatty@...>
      >
      > To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:01 PM
      >
      > Subject: RE: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Z255 bounderies
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Peter and Earl
      >
      > Got my results on 255 and 253.
      >
      > I am L159.2+, Z255+, and Z253-.
      >
      > Pete Beatty
      >
      > From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of peter.beattie2
      > Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 7:18 AM
      > To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Z255 bounderies
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi Earl
      >
      > Glad to see your Z255+ (derived) status has been confirmed. This means that
      > you have confirmed a limit with the Z254 and we have both identified the
      > limit with the Z253 for which we are both negative. Many thanks for the
      > confirmation. Do we have any more news on testees showing Z255- and L159.2+
      > ?
      >
      > Peter D Beattie
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      >
      > From: Earl Beaty <mailto:ecbeaty@...>
      >
      > To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 11:19 PM
      >
      > Subject: RE: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: Panel 5 - 111 markers Reply
      >
      >
      >
      > Margaret,
      >
      > I am not aware of any others. It looks like a complex situation.
      >
      > I observed that the test results that I ordered recently have now appeared.
      > I am:
      > R1b1a2a1a1b4f L159.2+, L176.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L21+, Z253-, Z254-, Z255+
      >
      > --Earl
      >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
      > > [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of marosjor
      > > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 9:43 AM
      > > To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > Subject: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: Panel 5 - 111 markers Reply
      > >
      > < br>> Hi Earl,
      > >
      > > Yes, I went ahead with ordering the DYS435 for Kit 12757 (my cousin). The
      > group of
      > > O'Sheas in which Kit 12757 is in, is more of an extended family from NW
      > Cork and
      > > this kit represents the group in SNP testing etc. I think we (NW Cork
      > O'Sheas) are
      > > loosely classified by some as being in the "Irish Sea" cluster as we don't
      > quite fit the
      > > tight BBC Leinster cluster. L159.2 (and other L159.X) seems unreliable and
      > perhaps
      > > more should test on Z255 which seems to be slow in uptake?
      > >
      > > The Ireland yDNA Project sponsored Z255 for McHale (Kit 139196)who turned
      > out
      > > Z255+. Interestingly, he has DYS435=12 whereas Phelps (Kit 100136)who is
      > also
      > > Z255+ and L159.2-, has DYS435=11.
      > >
      > > The list for Z255+, L159.2- which I am aware of is:
      > >
      > > 26655 Mobley
      > > 100136 Phelps
      > > 12757 O'Shea
      > > 141428 McConnell
      > > 150687 Nicholson< br>> 139196 McHale
      > >
      > > Are there others?
      > >
      > > Regards,
      > > Margaret
      > > Admin. O'Shea Project and Ireland yDNA Project
      > >
      > > --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA%40yahoogroups.com> , "Earl Beaty" <ecbeaty@>
      > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Margaret,
      > > >
      > > > I see that Brian O'Shea has already ordered the DYS435 test, and I agree
      > > > that it is a good idea. I see that you have several O'Sheas who are
      > probably
      > > > ccgg. We have several men who are Z255+ but divided on L259.2. Also we
      > have
      > > > men who are Z255-, but divided on L159.2. This not what we expect. The
      > men
      > > > who have DYS435=12 have mostly been tested at L159.2 and they are almost
      > all
      > > > +. The one who has been reported L159.2- is Richard McHale. It will be
      > very
      > > > interesting to see if Brian join s Richard.
      > > >
      > > > I have been imagining that the DYS435=12 is an indicator of Leinster
      > origin.
      > > > I don't have much support for this other than Paul Burns has attached
      > the
      > > > Leinster label to the Byrne contingent.
      > > >
      > > > More data needed.
      > > >
      > > > --Earl
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Pete Beatty
      Earl, I have been looking at the Beatty all table and have noticed that there is a very clear clustering of data around the 448 marker that is not recognized
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 4, 2012
      • 0 Attachment

        Earl,

         

        I have been looking at the Beatty all table and have noticed that there is a very clear clustering of data around the 448 marker that is not recognized in Les’s current clustering decisions.  If we use this marker, we have 45 members that are quite possibly negative at SNP L159.2, and includes Gerald Jackson (kit 150687).

         

        I am still working on a more detailed analysis, and will send a report once completed.

         

        Pete Beatty

         

        From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Earl Beaty
        Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 1:49 PM
        To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: 'Les Beaty'
        Subject: RE: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Z255 bounderies

         

         

        Mike,

         

        The MRCA of Beatty Group 01 is different from the R-L21 modal haplotype according to the table below except that at the 2 CDY markers the Beattys have elevated values (variable). It has been quite a while since this MRCA lived and many of his descendants have had mutations. Nicholson only matches 3 of the 5 markers, and that makes him questionable as a descendant. I believe that Les uses a genetic distance criterion and it works well to select Beattys who are in Group 01.

         

        Marker   Beatty    R-L21
        DYS389-1  >= 14     <=13
        DYS448    <= 18     >=19

        DYS442     = 11     >=12
        DYS446    >= 14     <=13
        DYS557    >= 17     <=16

         

        The surprise is that a man from another haplogroup should get even close to the Beatties. In the BBC we have many men who could be in the Beatty family and we have no clean way to tell which ones are.

         

        --Earl

         

        From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike W
        Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 4:45 PM
        To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Z255 bounderies

         





        Earl and Les,
        What are the STR values that constitute a firm fit for the group ?

        Mike W

        On Feb 26, 2012 3:38 PM, "Earl Beaty" <ecbeaty@...> wrote:

         

        Peter and Pete,

         

        We now have 6 Beattys who are L159.1+ and 3 of them are Z255+. These are all the Beattys who have been tested at these SNPs. I would be pleased if we could get a few more tests to confirm the pattern.

         

        A problem is Gerald Nicholson, Kit 150687. He has joined the Beatty Project and Les has ruled that he is in Group 01. I agree that his STR haplotype is reasonably close, but he is L159.2-. Something is not fitting as expected.

         

        --Earl

         

        From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of peter.beattie2
        Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:19 PM
        To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Z255 bounderies

         




        Hi Pete

         

        Thanks for joining the party that makes us 01 Beatty Group pretty firm. It would be interesting what the other Beatty family groups are if only they would submit themselves for deep clade testing.

        I am on the lookout for any 'orphaned L159.2' testees!

        Regards

         

        Peter D

         

        ----- Original Message -----

        Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:01 PM

        Subject: RE: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Z255 bounderies

         

         

        Peter and Earl  

        Got my results on 255 and 253.

        I am  L159.2+, Z255+, and Z253-.

        Pete Beatty

        From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of peter.beattie2
        Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 7:18 AM
        To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Z255 bounderies

         

        Hi Earl

        Glad to see your Z255+ (derived) status has been confirmed. This means that you have confirmed a limit with the Z254 and we have both identified the limit with the Z253 for which we are both negative. Many thanks for the confirmation. Do we have any more news on testees showing Z255- and L159.2+ ?

        Peter D Beattie

        ----- Original Message -----

        From: Earl Beaty

        Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 11:19 PM

        Subject: RE: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: Panel 5 - 111 markers Reply

         

        Margaret,

        I am not aware of any others. It looks like a complex situation.

        I observed that the test results that I ordered recently have now appeared.
        I am:
        R1b1a2a1a1b4f  L159.2+, L176.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L21+, Z253-, Z254-, Z255+

        --Earl

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of marosjor
        > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 9:43 AM
        > To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: Panel 5 - 111 markers Reply
        >
        < br>> Hi Earl,
        >
        > Yes, I went ahead with ordering the DYS435 for Kit 12757 (my cousin). The
        group of
        > O'Sheas in which Kit 12757 is in, is more of an extended family from NW
        Cork and
        > this kit represents the group in SNP testing etc. I think we (NW Cork
        O'Sheas) are
        > loosely classified by some as being in the "Irish Sea" cluster as we don't
        quite fit the
        > tight BBC Leinster cluster. L159.2 (and other L159.X) seems unreliable and
        perhaps
        > more should test on Z255 which seems to be slow in uptake?
        >
        > The Ireland yDNA Project sponsored Z255 for McHale (Kit 139196)who turned
        out
        > Z255+. Interestingly, he has DYS435=12 whereas Phelps (Kit 100136)who is
        also
        > Z255+ and L159.2-, has DYS435=11.
        >
        > The list for Z255+, L159.2- which I am aware of is:
        >
        > 26655 Mobley
        > 100136 Phelps
        > 12757 O'Shea
        > 141428 McConnell
        > 150687 Nicholson< br>> 139196 McHale
        >
        > Are there others?
        >
        > Regards,
        > Margaret
        > Admin. O'Shea Project and Ireland yDNA Project
        >
        > --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Beaty" <ecbeaty@...>
        wrote:
        > >
        > > Margaret,
        > >
        > > I see that Brian O'Shea has already ordered the DYS435 test, and I agree
        > > that it is a good idea. I see that you have several O'Sheas who are
        probably
        > > ccgg. We have several men who are Z255+ but divided on L259.2. Also we
        have
        > > men who are Z255-, but divided on L159.2. This not what we expect. The
        men
        > > who have DYS435=12 have mostly been tested at L159.2 and they are almost
        all
        > > +. The one who has been reported L159.2- is Richard McHale. It will be
        very
        > > interesting to see if Brian join s Richard.
        > >
        > > I have been imagining that the DYS435=12 is an indicator of Leinster
        origin.
        > > I don't have much support for this other than Paul Burns has attached
        the
        > > Leinster label to the Byrne contingent.
        > >
        > > More data needed.
        > >
        > > --Earl
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >








      • Earl Beaty
        Pete, STR448 is a very special marker for Beattys. The mode in R1b1a is 19 and all of our Beattys in Group 01 are less than that. All of our Beattys not in
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 5, 2012
        • 0 Attachment

          Pete,

           

          STR448 is a very special marker for Beattys. The mode in R1b1a is 19 and all of our Beattys in Group 01 are less than that.  All of our Beattys not in Group 01 are above 18. The single exception to this rule is Jerry Nicholson, and that may be a good reason to conclude that he is not a descendant of Adam. The frequency of 18 in R1b1a is about 15%, indicating that something special is going on in our group. STR448 is located on a palindrome, but is not duplicated. A couple of years ago I asked Thomas Krahn about this situation and he indicated that there is a possibility that the Beattys (Group 01) might have a special structure which inhibits increasing the number of repeats. But he didn’t know what it might be. I have never expected this to hold up as a robust test for Descendancy from Adam, but so far it looks good (except for Jerry).

           

          --Earl

           

          From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Pete Beatty
          Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2012 1:19 PM
          To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Z255 bounderies

           




          Earl,

           

          I have been looking at the Beatty all table and have noticed that there is a very clear clustering of data around the 448 marker that is not recognized in Les’s current clustering decisions.  If we use this marker, we have 45 members that are quite possibly negative at SNP L159.2, and includes Gerald Jackson (kit 150687).

           

          I am still working on a more detailed analysis, and will send a report once completed.

           

          Pete Beatty

           

          From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Earl Beaty
          Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 1:49 PM
          To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: 'Les Beaty'
          Subject: RE: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Z255 bounderies

           

           

          Mike,

           

          The MRCA of Beatty Group 01 is different from the R-L21 modal haplotype according to the table below except that at the 2 CDY markers the Beattys have elevated values (variable). It has been quite a while since this MRCA lived and many of his descendants have had mutations. Nicholson only matches 3 of the 5 markers, and that makes him questionable as a descendant. I believe that Les uses a genetic distance criterion and it works well to select Beattys who are in Group 01.

           

          Marker   Beatty    R-L21
          DYS389-1  >= 14     <=13
          DYS448    <= 18     >=19

          DYS442     = 11     >=12
          DYS446    >= 14     <=13
          DYS557    >= 17     <=16

           

          The surprise is that a man from another haplogroup should get even close to the Beatties. In the BBC we have many men who could be in the Beatty family and we have no clean way to tell which ones are.

           

          --Earl

           

          From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike W
          Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 4:45 PM
          To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Z255 bounderies

           




          Earl and Les,
          What are the STR values that constitute a firm fit for the group ?

          Mike W

          On Feb 26, 2012 3:38 PM, "Earl Beaty" <ecbeaty@...> wrote:

           

          Peter and Pete,

           

          We now have 6 Beattys who are L159.1+ and 3 of them are Z255+. These are all the Beattys who have been tested at these SNPs. I would be pleased if we could get a few more tests to confirm the pattern.

           

          A problem is Gerald Nicholson, Kit 150687. He has joined the Beatty Project and Les has ruled that he is in Group 01. I agree that his STR haplotype is reasonably close, but he is L159.2-. Something is not fitting as expected.

           

          --Earl

           

          From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of peter.beattie2
          Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:19 PM
          To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Z255 bounderies

           



          Hi Pete

           

          Thanks for joining the party that makes us 01 Beatty Group pretty firm. It would be interesting what the other Beatty family groups are if only they would submit themselves for deep clade testing.

          I am on the lookout for any 'orphaned L159.2' testees!

          Regards

           

          Peter D

           

          ----- Original Message -----

          Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:01 PM

          Subject: RE: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Z255 bounderies

           

           

          Peter and Earl  

          Got my results on 255 and 253.

          I am  L159.2+, Z255+, and Z253-.

          Pete Beatty

          From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of peter.beattie2
          Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 7:18 AM
          To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Z255 bounderies

           

          Hi Earl

          Glad to see your Z255+ (derived) status has been confirmed. This means that you have confirmed a limit with the Z254 and we have both identified the limit with the Z253 for which we are both negative. Many thanks for the confirmation. Do we have any more news on testees showing Z255- and L159.2+ ?

          Peter D Beattie

          ----- Original Message -----

          From: Earl Beaty

          Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 11:19 PM

          Subject: RE: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: Panel 5 - 111 markers Reply

           

          Margaret,

          I am not aware of any others. It looks like a complex situation.

          I observed that the test results that I ordered recently have now appeared.
          I am:
          R1b1a2a1a1b4f  L159.2+, L176.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L21+, Z253-, Z254-, Z255+

          --Earl

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of marosjor
          > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 9:43 AM
          > To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: Panel 5 - 111 markers Reply
          >
          < br>> Hi Earl,
          >
          > Yes, I went ahead with ordering the DYS435 for Kit 12757 (my cousin). The
          group of
          > O'Sheas in which Kit 12757 is in, is more of an extended family from NW
          Cork and
          > this kit represents the group in SNP testing etc. I think we (NW Cork
          O'Sheas) are
          > loosely classified by some as being in the "Irish Sea" cluster as we don't
          quite fit the
          > tight BBC Leinster cluster. L159.2 (and other L159.X) seems unreliable and
          perhaps
          > more should test on Z255 which seems to be slow in uptake?
          >
          > The Ireland yDNA Project sponsored Z255 for McHale (Kit 139196)who turned
          out
          > Z255+. Interestingly, he has DYS435=12 whereas Phelps (Kit 100136)who is
          also
          > Z255+ and L159.2-, has DYS435=11.
          >
          > The list for Z255+, L159.2- which I am aware of is:
          >
          > 26655 Mobley
          > 100136 Phelps
          > 12757 O'Shea
          > 141428 McConnell
          > 150687 Nicholson< br>> 139196 McHale
          >
          > Are there others?
          >
          > Regards,
          > Margaret
          > Admin. O'Shea Project and Ireland yDNA Project
          >
          > --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Beaty" <ecbeaty@...>
          wrote:
          > >
          > > Margaret,
          > >
          > > I see that Brian O'Shea has already ordered the DYS435 test, and I agree
          > > that it is a good idea. I see that you have several O'Sheas who are
          probably
          > > ccgg. We have several men who are Z255+ but divided on L259.2. Also we
          have
          > > men who are Z255-, but divided on L159.2. This not what we expect. The
          men
          > > who have DYS435=12 have mostly been tested at L159.2 and they are almost
          all
          > > +. The one who has been reported L159.2- is Richard McHale. It will be
          very
          > > interesting to see if Brian join s Richard.
          > >
          > > I have been imagining that the DYS435=12 is an indicator of Leinster
          origin.
          > > I don't have much support for this other than Paul Burns has attached
          the
          > > Leinster label to the Byrne contingent.
          > >
          > > More data needed.
          > >
          > > --Earl
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >






           




        • Earl Beaty
          Jerry, You present two problems in fitting together the puzzle. 1. You are Z255+ and ccgg, but L259.2-. 2. You are indicated to be a member of Beatty Group
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 5, 2012
          • 0 Attachment

            Jerry,

             

            You present two problems in fitting together the puzzle.

            1.   You are Z255+ and ccgg, but L259.2-.

            2.   You are indicated to be a member of Beatty Group 01, but with DYS448=19.

             

            You seem to have no Nicholson at Ysearch who is even close, suggesting that you acquired the Nicholson name through an NPE. You might consider testing a Nicholson second or third cousin. If that produces a match we can conclude that we are not dealing with lab errors.

             

            Perhaps an inspiration will come with further thought.

             

            --Earl

             

            > -----Original Message-----

            > From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com

            > [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of duckdawgnh

            > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2012 12:44 PM

            > To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com

            > Subject: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: Z255 bounderies

            >

            > First time I've checked in for a while only to find myself a topic of conversation!

            >

            > I'd be more than happy to test something else if it's helpful.

            >

            > Jerry Nicholson

            >

            > --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Beaty" <ecbeaty@...> wrote:

            > >

            > > Mike,

            > >

            > >

            > >

            > > The MRCA of Beatty Group 01 is different from the R-L21 modal

            > > haplotype according to the table below except that at the 2 CDY

            > > markers the Beattys have elevated values (variable). It has been quite

            > > a while since this MRCA lived and many of his descendants have had

            > > mutations. Nicholson only matches

            > > 3 of the 5 markers, and that makes him questionable as a descendant. I

            > > believe that Les uses a genetic distance criterion and it works well

            > > to select Beattys who are in Group 01.

            > >

            > >

            > >

            > > Marker   Beatty    R-L21

            > > DYS389-1  >= 14     <=13

            > > DYS448    <= 18     >=19

            > > DYS442     = 11     >=12

            > > DYS446    >= 14     <=13

            > > DYS557    >= 17     <=16

            > >

            > >

            > >

            > > The surprise is that a man from another haplogroup should get even

            > > close to the Beatties. In the BBC we have many men who could be in the

            > > Beatty family and we have no clean way to tell which ones are.

            > >

            > >

            > >

            > > --Earl

            > >

          • Hubert
            This is posted for general comment. It was my DNA in which the L159.2 was discovered. With all the new numbers and groups that are being discussed, is
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 6, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              This is posted for general comment. It was my DNA in which the L159.2
              was discovered. With all the new "numbers" and "groups" that are being
              discussed, is there any use or value to any ongoing discussion in my
              doing any more testing until more definitive information is developed.


              --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Beaty" <ecbeaty@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Jerry,
              >
              >
              >
              > You present two problems in fitting together the puzzle.
              >
              > 1. You are Z255+ and ccgg, but L259.2-.
              >
              > 2. You are indicated to be a member of Beatty Group 01, but with
              > DYS448=19.
              >
              >
              >
              > You seem to have no Nicholson at Ysearch who is even close, suggesting
              that
              > you acquired the Nicholson name through an NPE. You might consider
              testing a
              > Nicholson second or third cousin. If that produces a match we can
              conclude
              > that we are not dealing with lab errors.
              >
              >
              >
              > Perhaps an inspiration will come with further thought.
              >
              >
              >
              > --Earl
              >
              >
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              >
              > > From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > > [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of duckdawgnh
              >
              > > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2012 12:44 PM
              >
              > > To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > > Subject: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: Z255 bounderies
              >
              > >
              >
              > > First time I've checked in for a while only to find myself a topic
              of
              > conversation!
              >
              > >
              >
              > > I'd be more than happy to test something else if it's helpful.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Jerry Nicholson
              >
              > >
              >
              > > --- In <mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
              > Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Beaty" < <mailto:ecbeaty@
              > ecbeaty@ wrote:
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > Mike,
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > The MRCA of Beatty Group 01 is different from the R-L21 modal
              >
              > > > haplotype according to the table below except that at the 2 CDY
              >
              > > > markers the Beattys have elevated values (variable). It has been
              quite
              >
              > > > a while since this MRCA lived and many of his descendants have had
              >
              > > > mutations. Nicholson only matches
              >
              > > > 3 of the 5 markers, and that makes him questionable as a
              descendant. I
              >
              > > > believe that Les uses a genetic distance criterion and it works
              well
              >
              > > > to select Beattys who are in Group 01.
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > Marker Beatty R-L21
              >
              > > > DYS389-1 >= 14 <=13
              >
              > > > DYS448 <= 18 >=19
              >
              > > > DYS442 = 11 >=12
              >
              > > > DYS446 >= 14 <=13
              >
              > > > DYS557 >= 17 <=16
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > The surprise is that a man from another haplogroup should get even
              >
              > > > close to the Beatties. In the BBC we have many men who could be in
              the
              >
              > > > Beatty family and we have no clean way to tell which ones are.
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > --Earl
              >
              > > >
              >
            • duckdawgnh
              I would agree with the possibility of an NPE considering the dearth of matching Nicholsons in the databases. Just have to ferret out timelines now.
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 6, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                I would agree with the possibility of an NPE considering the dearth of matching Nicholsons in the databases. Just have to ferret out timelines now.

                --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Beaty" <ecbeaty@...> wrote:
                >
                > Jerry,
                >
                >
                >
                > You present two problems in fitting together the puzzle.
                >
                > 1. You are Z255+ and ccgg, but L259.2-.
                >
                > 2. You are indicated to be a member of Beatty Group 01, but with
                > DYS448=19.
                >
                >
                >
                > You seem to have no Nicholson at Ysearch who is even close, suggesting that
                > you acquired the Nicholson name through an NPE. You might consider testing a
                > Nicholson second or third cousin. If that produces a match we can conclude
                > that we are not dealing with lab errors.
                >
                >
                >
                > Perhaps an inspiration will come with further thought.
                >
                >
                >
                > --Earl
                >
                >
                >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                >
                > > From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > > [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of duckdawgnh
                >
                > > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2012 12:44 PM
                >
                > > To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > > Subject: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: Z255 bounderies
                >
                > >
                >
                > > First time I've checked in for a while only to find myself a topic of
                > conversation!
                >
                > >
                >
                > > I'd be more than happy to test something else if it's helpful.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Jerry Nicholson
                >
                > >
                >
                > > --- In <mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com>
                > Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Beaty" < <mailto:ecbeaty@>
                > ecbeaty@> wrote:
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > Mike,
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > The MRCA of Beatty Group 01 is different from the R-L21 modal
                >
                > > > haplotype according to the table below except that at the 2 CDY
                >
                > > > markers the Beattys have elevated values (variable). It has been quite
                >
                > > > a while since this MRCA lived and many of his descendants have had
                >
                > > > mutations. Nicholson only matches
                >
                > > > 3 of the 5 markers, and that makes him questionable as a descendant. I
                >
                > > > believe that Les uses a genetic distance criterion and it works well
                >
                > > > to select Beattys who are in Group 01.
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > Marker Beatty R-L21
                >
                > > > DYS389-1 >= 14 <=13
                >
                > > > DYS448 <= 18 >=19
                >
                > > > DYS442 = 11 >=12
                >
                > > > DYS446 >= 14 <=13
                >
                > > > DYS557 >= 17 <=16
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > The surprise is that a man from another haplogroup should get even
                >
                > > > close to the Beatties. In the BBC we have many men who could be in the
                >
                > > > Beatty family and we have no clean way to tell which ones are.
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > --Earl
                >
                > > >
                >
              • Earl Beaty
                Hubert, I have some suggestions for you to think about. The relationship between Z255 and L159.2 seems to be confused. I believe the general expectation is
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 8, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hubert,

                  I have some suggestions for you to think about.

                  The relationship between Z255 and L159.2 seems to be confused. I believe the
                  general expectation is that all of R-L159.2 lies within R-Z255, but some
                  exceptions have been found. More tests at both of these SNPs might reveal
                  where the problem is.

                  I am looking to find a way to subdivide R-L159.2, and I think we have one.
                  With a few more subdivisions we should be able to develop some solid
                  connections to the history books and genealogical information. The dividing
                  marker is DYS435 where within R-L21 there seems to be only 2 values, 11 and
                  12. Almost everyone has 11, but within R-L159.2 there is a significant
                  portion with 12. We don't have a lot of data but our 12s consist of Byrnes
                  and a few other surnames. This looks like a clean division. STR444 is
                  another marker which identifies Byrne. In this case the mode is 12 and there
                  is more variability than there is at 435. Nevertheless if we select the
                  records with either 10 or 11 at 444 we get a bunch of Byrnes and a few
                  others. The others list includes Carmack.

                  It is possible to order only the 435 marker and it is not expensive. You
                  might consider getting the 111-marker upgrade in the expectation that we
                  might find other interesting correlations.

                  --Earl

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hubert
                  > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 10:54 AM
                  > To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: Z255 bounderies
                  >
                  > This is posted for general comment. It was my DNA in which the L159.2 was
                  > discovered. With all the new "numbers" and "groups" that are being
                  discussed, is
                  > there any use or value to any ongoing discussion in my doing any more
                  testing
                  > until more definitive information is developed.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Beaty" <ecbeaty@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Jerry,
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > You present two problems in fitting together the puzzle.
                  > >
                  > > 1. You are Z255+ and ccgg, but L259.2-.
                  > >
                  > > 2. You are indicated to be a member of Beatty Group 01, but with
                  > > DYS448=19.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > You seem to have no Nicholson at Ysearch who is even close, suggesting
                  > that
                  > > you acquired the Nicholson name through an NPE. You might consider
                  > testing a
                  > > Nicholson second or third cousin. If that produces a match we can
                  > conclude
                  > > that we are not dealing with lab errors.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Perhaps an inspiration will come with further thought.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --Earl
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > >
                  > > > From: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > > [mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of duckdawgnh
                  > >
                  > > > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2012 12:44 PM
                  > >
                  > > > To: Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > > Subject: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: Z255 bounderies
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > > First time I've checked in for a while only to find myself a topic
                  > of
                  > > conversation!
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > > I'd be more than happy to test something else if it's helpful.
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > > Jerry Nicholson
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > > --- In <mailto:Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Beaty" < <mailto:ecbeaty@
                  > > ecbeaty@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > Mike,
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > The MRCA of Beatty Group 01 is different from the R-L21 modal
                  > >
                  > > > > haplotype according to the table below except that at the 2 CDY
                  > >
                  > > > > markers the Beattys have elevated values (variable). It has been
                  > quite
                  > >
                  > > > > a while since this MRCA lived and many of his descendants have had
                  > >
                  > > > > mutations. Nicholson only matches
                  > >
                  > > > > 3 of the 5 markers, and that makes him questionable as a
                  > descendant. I
                  > >
                  > > > > believe that Les uses a genetic distance criterion and it works
                  > well
                  > >
                  > > > > to select Beattys who are in Group 01.
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > Marker Beatty R-L21
                  > >
                  > > > > DYS389-1 >= 14 <=13
                  > >
                  > > > > DYS448 <= 18 >=19
                  > >
                  > > > > DYS442 = 11 >=12
                  > >
                  > > > > DYS446 >= 14 <=13
                  > >
                  > > > > DYS557 >= 17 <=16
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > The surprise is that a man from another haplogroup should get even
                  > >
                  > > > > close to the Beatties. In the BBC we have many men who could be in
                  > the
                  > >
                  > > > > Beatty family and we have no clean way to tell which ones are.
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > > > --Earl
                  > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • mikewww7
                  For those considering DYS435, please consider the whole upgrade to 111 STRs. We now have almost 800 L21+ 111 STR haplotypes. Any one STR can always be an
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 8, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    For those considering DYS435, please consider the whole upgrade to 111 STRs. We now have almost 800 L21+ 111 STR haplotypes. Any one STR can always be an "exception", a back-mutation or something very recent with a lineage. The greater value is seeing a pattern of unique values. The upgrade to 111 gives you another 44 STRs to find those unique patterns with.

                    We don't know what we don't know and we need more people to upgrade to find out.

                    Mike

                    --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Beaty" <ecbeaty@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hubert,
                    >
                    > I have some suggestions for you to think about.
                    >
                    > The relationship between Z255 and L159.2 seems to be confused. I believe the
                    > general expectation is that all of R-L159.2 lies within R-Z255, but some
                    > exceptions have been found. More tests at both of these SNPs might reveal
                    > where the problem is.
                    >
                    > I am looking to find a way to subdivide R-L159.2, and I think we have one.
                    > With a few more subdivisions we should be able to develop some solid
                    > connections to the history books and genealogical information. The dividing
                    > marker is DYS435 where within R-L21 there seems to be only 2 values, 11 and
                    > 12. Almost everyone has 11, but within R-L159.2 there is a significant
                    > portion with 12. We don't have a lot of data but our 12s consist of Byrnes
                    > and a few other surnames. This looks like a clean division. STR444 is
                    > another marker which identifies Byrne. In this case the mode is 12 and there
                    > is more variability than there is at 435. Nevertheless if we select the
                    > records with either 10 or 11 at 444 we get a bunch of Byrnes and a few
                    > others. The others list includes Carmack.
                    >
                    > It is possible to order only the 435 marker and it is not expensive. You
                    > might consider getting the 111-marker upgrade in the expectation that we
                    > might find other interesting correlations.
                    >
                    > --Earl
                  • marosjor
                    Hi Earl, Kit 12757 (O Shea) has tested on DYS435 and is 11. Does this help? Regards, Margaret
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 10, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Earl,

                      Kit 12757 (O'Shea) has tested on DYS435 and is 11.

                      Does this help?

                      Regards,
                      Margaret


                      >
                      > It is possible to order only the 435 marker and it is not expensive. You
                      > might consider getting the 111-marker upgrade in the expectation that we
                      > might find other interesting correlations.
                      >
                      > --Earl
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.