Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Domnainn, Galioin, Lagin

Expand Messages
  • pabloburns@comcast.net
    That probably was Father Ryan SJ who wrote several excellent articles about Leinster back in the 1930sw. One was an account of the Battle of Clontarf, that has
    Message 1 of 4 , Jul 1, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
         That probably was Father Ryan SJ who wrote several excellent articles about Leinster back in the 1930sw. One was an account of the Battle of Clontarf, that has never been bettered.
         When Smyth's book appeared in the 80s, I read it via ILL, but foolishly I did not purchase a copy. Now I can't find one. I did copy most of his maps. I seem to recall that he thought the Leyn Penninsula in Wales may have been the source of the name Leinster, rather than vice versa.
      Paul
       
      -------------- Original message --------------
      From: "John McLaughlin" <Lochlan@...>

      I ran off copies of a couple of chapters of Alfred P. Smyth's "Celtic
      Leinster: towards an historical geography of early Irish civilization,
      AD 500-1600."

      He echoes O'Rahilly's statements that the invasion leader of the
      Lagin, Labraid Loingsech, first came to Ireland from Gaul (based on
      their own origin legend) and that the Fir Domnainn (Domnonii),
      Galioin, and Lagin were the same or related peoples. But there is
      also a consensus that this tribe in Leinster (or part of them at
      least) came to Ireland from Britain.

      The main part where Smyth disagrees with O'Rahilly is he regards the
      Ui Bairrche in Leinster as the same tribe as the Brigantes of
      Ptolemy's map. And these are indeed attached to the stem of the
      Laginian pedigrees one of the seven free tribes of the Lagin in
      descent from Cathoir Mor. Smyth seems to think it's possible there
      were multiple invasions of Ireland by people later known as the Lagin.
      The first historically w ere the Fir Domnainn whom he like everyone
      else connects to the Domnonii of SW England, Armorica in Gaul, and
      even the lowlands of Scotland. He quotes extensively from a writer
      named Ryan who also wrote a study on Leinster in about 1942, who
      believed some of the Lagin came to Ireland (perhaps later than the Fir
      Domnainn or Domnonii) from the Lleyn peninusla in north Wales.

      "Finally, Ryan believed that the Lagin or Leinstermen were a sub-group
      of the invading Dumnonii coming from western Caernarvonshire, south of
      anglesey in Wales, from the region of the Lleyn peninsula." The
      linguistic connection between Laigin and Lleyn is a valid one, but the
      Laigin may have constituted a more important group of invaders than
      Ryan supposed. They have, after all, imposed the name of their tribe
      on the whole of southeast Ireland from their own time to the present.
      It is likely that the so-called Free Tribes of Leinster (Ui Failge,
      Ui Bairrche and Ui Ene chtglais, etc.,) constituted the original Laigin
      who replaced the Fir Domnann.

      Where does that leave us? Except with a headache, of course. How
      can you reconcile the traditions of the Domnonii of SW England,
      Armorica in Gaul, the lowlands of Scotland with the idea that some
      Domnonii might have later come to Leinster from the Lleyn peninsula in
      northern Wales? And how do the Brigantes fit in the picture (Ui Bairrche).

      Here's a possibility.

      Perhaps the people of Leinster did maintain a tradition that their
      ancestor came to Ireland from Armorica in Gaul. They might have been
      the same people as the Domnonii of SW England (Cornwal and Devonshire)
      and even lowland Scotland. That much doesn't seem to bother
      historians; it's pretty well accepted. And these people were known as
      the Fir Domnainn in Ireland.

      Now maybe some of these early Fir Domnainn in Leinster were the
      "Leinster" kings mentioned who ruled in parts of northern Wale s until
      the mid 6th century when they were driven out by Cunneda and his band.
      They might have returned to Ireland from this part of western
      Britain. Or you might be able to see some connection with the
      Brigantes of northern England (parts of which were not far from the
      Lleyn peninsula in north Wales). They are the only "Lagin" tribe
      mentioned in Ptolemy's map c. 150 A.D. (discounting O'Rahilly of course).

      It's a tangled mess and I'm sure we'll never know exactly what
      happened or which tribe carried the Leinster modal DNA. It might have
      been all of the above; or just some (like the Brigantes). Either way
      we have to find an explanation for the DNA in northern England and the
      lowlands of Scotland and it could come from the Lleyn peninsula in
      Wales, the Domnonii of Strathclyde, or the Brigantes of northern
      England. I can't even guess myself.

      What we do know is the DNA is in the line of the Cavanaghs and
      O'Byrnes, and both of these were late arising septs in the sense that
      they came to prominence some time after kings of Leinster appeared in
      some of the other lines like the Dal Mesin Corb or Ui Bairrche. They
      too are made to descend from one the six free septs of the Lagin. The
      free septs of the Lagin were: Ui Failge, Ui Crimthainn Ain, Ui
      Bairrche, Ui Cheithig, and Ui Enechglais. The sixth were the Ui
      Chennselaig (Cavanagh) and the Ui Dunlainge (O'Byrne). They all might
      have come to Ireland later than the earliest Fir Domnainn from Gaul.

      I'll probably OCR these two chapters and try and post them later if
      anyone would like to read them.

      Byrnes (Irish Kings and High Kings) doesn't differ much from O'Rahilly
      and Smyth. He too connects the Domnainn, Galoioin and Lagin of
      Ireland and mentions their origin legend brought them from Gaul to
      Ireland. He adds that the root of the word Galioin is the same word
      that means "spears"; the same thing is said of the Lagin (d erived from
      the Irish word for "spears". Like O'Rahilly he mentions the Domnainn
      originally much of north Munster and parts of Connacht before
      disappearing from history. And also states "they can hardly be
      disaciated from their British name-sakes the Dumnoniii of Devon and
      south-western Scotland." Byrnes thinks there may have been three
      separate peoples, the Lagin, Galioin and Domnainn, who "merged their
      identities in a great federation and so pooled their genealogical
      resources."

      Personally, I like the idea floated by Ryan about connections between
      the Lleyn peninsula in North Wales and the Kings of Leinster (at least
      some of the later ones like the Ui Cheinselaig and the Ui Dunlaing)
      because of the proximity to the territory of the Brigantes in northern
      England and even further north the Domnonii of Strathclyde. That
      makes a little more sense to me than trying to see connections with SW
      England in terms of DNA.

      John

      < BR>

    • antnbyrne
      I don t know if this will help this discussion or not but in John s message #270 there is a website: http://cullengene.blogspot.com (etc.) which shows two maps
      Message 2 of 4 , Jul 1, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        I don't know if this will help this discussion or not but in John's
        message #270 there is a website: http://cullengene.blogspot.com
        (etc.) which shows two maps in between which another website is
        shown: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/c/culln
        I looked at these websites as the information provided indicated that
        the Cullens preceded the Byrnes in Co. Wicklow. Under the RESULTS tab
        in the second website I saw that there were 4 Cullings (one from
        Scotland, one from Wicklow, one from Maine and one unknown)who were
        all 15c 15c 17g 17g whilst the other Cullens and Cullings were not.
        Anthony



        --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, "John McLaughlin"
        <Lochlan@...> wrote:
        >
        > I ran off copies of a couple of chapters of Alfred P.
        Smyth's "Celtic
        > Leinster: towards an historical geography of early Irish
        civilization,
        > AD 500-1600."
        >
        > He echoes O'Rahilly's statements that the invasion leader of the
        > Lagin, Labraid Loingsech, first came to Ireland from Gaul (based on
        > their own origin legend) and that the Fir Domnainn (Domnonii),
        > Galioin, and Lagin were the same or related peoples. But there is
        > also a consensus that this tribe in Leinster (or part of them at
        > least) came to Ireland from Britain.
        >
        > The main part where Smyth disagrees with O'Rahilly is he regards the
        > Ui Bairrche in Leinster as the same tribe as the Brigantes of
        > Ptolemy's map. And these are indeed attached to the stem of the
        > Laginian pedigrees one of the seven free tribes of the Lagin in
        > descent from Cathoir Mor. Smyth seems to think it's possible there
        > were multiple invasions of Ireland by people later known as the
        Lagin.
        > The first historically were the Fir Domnainn whom he like everyone
        > else connects to the Domnonii of SW England, Armorica in Gaul, and
        > even the lowlands of Scotland. He quotes extensively from a writer
        > named Ryan who also wrote a study on Leinster in about 1942, who
        > believed some of the Lagin came to Ireland (perhaps later than the
        Fir
        > Domnainn or Domnonii) from the Lleyn peninusla in north Wales.
        >
        > "Finally, Ryan believed that the Lagin or Leinstermen were a sub-
        group
        > of the invading Dumnonii coming from western Caernarvonshire, south
        of
        > anglesey in Wales, from the region of the Lleyn peninsula." The
        > linguistic connection between Laigin and Lleyn is a valid one, but
        the
        > Laigin may have constituted a more important group of invaders than
        > Ryan supposed. They have, after all, imposed the name of their
        tribe
        > on the whole of southeast Ireland from their own time to the
        present.
        > It is likely that the so-called Free Tribes of Leinster (Ui Failge,
        > Ui Bairrche and Ui Enechtglais, etc.,) constituted the original
        Laigin
        > who replaced the Fir Domnann.
        >
        > Where does that leave us? Except with a headache, of course. How
        > can you reconcile the traditions of the Domnonii of SW England,
        > Armorica in Gaul, the lowlands of Scotland with the idea that some
        > Domnonii might have later come to Leinster from the Lleyn peninsula
        in
        > northern Wales? And how do the Brigantes fit in the picture (Ui
        Bairrche).
        >
        > Here's a possibility.
        >
        > Perhaps the people of Leinster did maintain a tradition that their
        > ancestor came to Ireland from Armorica in Gaul. They might have
        been
        > the same people as the Domnonii of SW England (Cornwal and
        Devonshire)
        > and even lowland Scotland. That much doesn't seem to bother
        > historians; it's pretty well accepted. And these people were known
        as
        > the Fir Domnainn in Ireland.
        >
        > Now maybe some of these early Fir Domnainn in Leinster were the
        > "Leinster" kings mentioned who ruled in parts of northern Wales
        until
        > the mid 6th century when they were driven out by Cunneda and his
        band.
        > They might have returned to Ireland from this part of western
        > Britain. Or you might be able to see some connection with the
        > Brigantes of northern England (parts of which were not far from the
        > Lleyn peninsula in north Wales). They are the only "Lagin" tribe
        > mentioned in Ptolemy's map c. 150 A.D. (discounting O'Rahilly of
        course).
        >
        > It's a tangled mess and I'm sure we'll never know exactly what
        > happened or which tribe carried the Leinster modal DNA. It might
        have
        > been all of the above; or just some (like the Brigantes). Either
        way
        > we have to find an explanation for the DNA in northern England and
        the
        > lowlands of Scotland and it could come from the Lleyn peninsula in
        > Wales, the Domnonii of Strathclyde, or the Brigantes of northern
        > England. I can't even guess myself.
        >
        > What we do know is the DNA is in the line of the Cavanaghs and
        > O'Byrnes, and both of these were late arising septs in the sense
        that
        > they came to prominence some time after kings of Leinster appeared
        in
        > some of the other lines like the Dal Mesin Corb or Ui Bairrche.
        They
        > too are made to descend from one the six free septs of the Lagin.
        The
        > free septs of the Lagin were: Ui Failge, Ui Crimthainn Ain, Ui
        > Bairrche, Ui Cheithig, and Ui Enechglais. The sixth were the Ui
        > Chennselaig (Cavanagh) and the Ui Dunlainge (O'Byrne). They all
        might
        > have come to Ireland later than the earliest Fir Domnainn from
        Gaul.
        >
        >
        > I'll probably OCR these two chapters and try and post them later if
        > anyone would like to read them.
        >
        > Byrnes (Irish Kings and High Kings) doesn't differ much from
        O'Rahilly
        > and Smyth. He too connects the Domnainn, Galoioin and Lagin of
        > Ireland and mentions their origin legend brought them from Gaul to
        > Ireland. He adds that the root of the word Galioin is the same word
        > that means "spears"; the same thing is said of the Lagin (derived
        from
        > the Irish word for "spears". Like O'Rahilly he mentions the
        Domnainn
        > originally much of north Munster and parts of Connacht before
        > disappearing from history. And also states "they can hardly be
        > disaciated from their British name-sakes the Dumnoniii of Devon and
        > south-western Scotland." Byrnes thinks there may have been three
        > separate peoples, the Lagin, Galioin and Domnainn, who "merged their
        > identities in a great federation and so pooled their genealogical
        > resources."
        >
        > Personally, I like the idea floated by Ryan about connections
        between
        > the Lleyn peninsula in North Wales and the Kings of Leinster (at
        least
        > some of the later ones like the Ui Cheinselaig and the Ui Dunlaing)
        > because of the proximity to the territory of the Brigantes in
        northern
        > England and even further north the Domnonii of Strathclyde. That
        > makes a little more sense to me than trying to see connections with
        SW
        > England in terms of DNA.
        >
        >
        > John
        >
      • Lochlan@aol.com
        In a message dated 7/1/2008 6:13:05 A.M. Central Standard Time, pabloburns@comcast.net writes: That probably was Father Ryan SJ who wrote several excellent
        Message 3 of 4 , Jul 1, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          In a message dated 7/1/2008 6:13:05 A.M. Central Standard Time, pabloburns@... writes:
          That probably was Father Ryan SJ who wrote several excellent articles about Leinster back in the 1930sw. One was an account of the Battle of Clontarf, that has never been bettered.
             When Smyth's book appeared in the 80s, I read it via ILL, but foolishly I did not purchase a copy. Now I can't find one. I did copy most of his maps. I seem to recall that he thought the Leyn Penninsula in Wales may have been the source of the name Leinster, rather than vice versa.
          Paul
          That was the impression I got from Smyth's book - the name Lagin in Ireland came from the Lleyn peninsula in North Wales.
           
          I forgot to copy the footnotes from the Smyth book but he credits the Ryan article (I'm sure it's the same one you mention) to something like "The Past (Wexford), v. II.  I assume that's some kind of local history journal published in Wexford.  It would be interesting to get a look at this if anyone can locate a copy of the article.  Any local library or historical society in Wexford or even Ireland should have a copy.
           
          11. Periodicals (excl. newspapers)

          Wexford Historical Society Journal Nos 1 to date
          The Past, vols 1 to date
          Kilmore Parish Journal Nos 1 to date
          Taghmon Parish Journal
          All Branches

           
           
          John




          Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.