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Who is Norman and Who is Irish?

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  • Samuel Neal
    I am sure we talked about this before, but what is the general consensus around here when discussing Norman surnames in this cluster? In short, does everyone
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 2, 2010
      I am sure we talked about this before, but what is the general consensus around here when discussing Norman surnames in this cluster? In short, does everyone think that the Norman names are all native Irish, or what?

      I know many native Irish chose Norman surnames - and vice versa - but is the presence of Norman matches just that, or could the connection be centuries before the invasion, on the continent?
    • dnalister@comcast.net
      I m glad you asked because that brings up something that I have been wondering about recently. Alex Williamson did a chart based on genetic distances that he
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 2, 2010
        I'm glad you asked because that brings up something that I have been wondering about recently. Alex Williamson did a chart based on genetic distances that he posted in the R-L21 Yahoo group. I think that you and many of our other members already belong to this group, so it should be very easy for you to take a peek at Alex's chart in the files section of the group. It's currently listed 5th in the Files section under the heading R-L21 Tree 201.... On page 2, Alex has labeled a small group of five men "A small L159+ or 2c2g cluster". The 5 members of that cluster are all members of our project. Their ancestral surnames are Byrn, Gaston, Ryan, D'Arcy, and Aspel. All except for Byrn are 2c2g. Byrn is the one that is 3c1g, but has DYS464c=15 suggesting a recLOH and a very close match to another Burns who is 2c2g. Byrn is L159+. I noticed how 3 of those names seem to be Norman names. The rest of our Leinster Cluster and Mystery Cluster members are all listed on page 4 as a branch labeled in red as "L159+ (maybe a little bit more)" and the branch is shown separately on page 10 of Alex's file.

        Kit numbers for the 5 men:

        68384  Byrn
        N38274 Gaston
        166226 Ryan
        72665  D'Arcy
        35805  Aspel

        Files section for the RL21 group where Alex's chart listed 5th and dated February 24th may be found:

        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/

        Fluxus Phylogenetic Charts folder of this group where John's latest charts may be found listed 2nd and 3rd:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beatty_Byrnes_DNA/files/FLuxus%20Phylogenetic%20Charts/

        Now don't get me wrong. I don't think that that huge separation between these 5 men and the rest of the group is completely right. The method that Alex uses works well with very large data sets, but it manages to handle those large data sets by looking at genetic distances only, so the way that the haplotypes have changed on individual markers is ignored. Maybe this is one reason for the huge separation found. Still I have to wonder, have Alex's method and the inclusion of so many other R-L21 haplotypes in this chart given us some clue to a real separation between some Norman lines and some other lines in the group?

        Ever since Alex posted that chart, I have been hoping to take a look at the haplotypes of the men in question and try to make sense of their placement together on the chart, but I have not had the time to do that. I have also wanted to see how these men are placed relative to one another on John Walden's latest charts. I'm behind on sharing new results with the group, so I won't be looking at those haplotypes or charts right now. If anyone else has any ideas about this interesting turn of events, I'd like to hear them.

        Kirsten

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Samuel Neal" <jarl.downing@...>
        To: "beatty byrnes dna" <beatty_byrnes_dna@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, March 2, 2010 7:48:20 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
        Subject: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Who is Norman and Who is Irish?

         

        I am sure we talked about this before, but what is the general consensus around here when discussing Norman surnames in this cluster? In short, does everyone think that the Norman names are all native Irish, or what?

        I know many native Irish chose Norman surnames - and vice versa - but is the presence of Norman matches just that, or could the connection be centuries before the invasion, on the continent?

      • craig
        As far as Gastons are concerned, we have a legend that says our ancestor was a Huguenot who left France for Scotland some time in the 1600s, and then his sons
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 2, 2010
          As far as Gastons are concerned, we have a legend that says our ancestor was a Huguenot who left France for Scotland some time in the 1600s, and then his sons moved to Northern Ireland. Gastons first show up in Antrim in the 1669 Hearth Money Roll. We have some French and Spanish Gastons in our DNA group, but they don't match us. On the other hand, all our non-Gaston near matches appear to be Scottish or Irish. This could just be due to FTDNA'S UK bias, or it may mean that we really are Irish. There were lots of comings and goings between Scotland and France over the centuries so another possibility is that our lineage was originally Scots/Irish, but one of them emigrated to France and one of his descendants was our Huguenot ancestor who made the return trip back to Scotland. But the Gaston name does appear as early as the 1400s in England, and this lineage was quite likely of Norman origin. We would like to find one of them for DNA testing, but maybe we have - we may be one of them and our legend, just a legend.

          Craig Gaston

          --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, dnalister@... wrote:
          >
          > I'm glad you asked because that brings up something that I have been wondering about recently. Alex Williamson did a chart based on genetic distances that he posted in the R-L21 Yahoo group. I think that you and many of our other members already belong to this group, so it should be very easy for you to take a peek at Alex's chart in the files section of the group. It's currently listed 5th in the Files section under the heading R-L21 Tree 201.... On page 2, Alex has labeled a small group of five men "A small L159+ or 2c2g cluster". The 5 members of that cluster are all members of our project. Their ancestral surnames are Byrn, Gaston, Ryan, D'Arcy, and Aspel. All except for Byrn are 2c2g. Byrn is the one that is 3c1g, but has DYS464c=15 suggesting a recLOH and a very close match to another Burns who is 2c2g. Byrn is L159+. I noticed how 3 of those names seem to be Norman names. The rest of our Leinster Cluster and Mystery Cluster members are all listed on page 4 as a branch labeled in red as "L159+ (maybe a little bit more)" and the branch is shown separately on page 10 of Alex's file.
          >
          > Kit numbers for the 5 men:
          >
          > 68384 Byrn
          > N38274 Gaston
          > 166226 Ryan
          > 72665 D'Arcy
          > 35805 Aspel
          >
          > Files section for the RL21 group where Alex's chart listed 5th and dated February 24th may be found:
          >
          > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/
          >
          > Fluxus Phylogenetic Charts folder of this group where John's latest charts may be found listed 2nd and 3rd:
          >
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beatty_Byrnes_DNA/files/FLuxus%20Phylogenetic%20Charts/
          >
          > Now don't get me wrong. I don't think that that huge separation between these 5 men and the rest of the group is completely right. The method that Alex uses works well with very large data sets, but it manages to handle those large data sets by looking at genetic distances only, so the way that the haplotypes have changed on individual markers is ignored. Maybe this is one reason for the huge separation found. Still I have to wonder, have Alex's method and the inclusion of so many other R-L21 haplotypes in this chart given us some clue to a real separation between some Norman lines and some other lines in the group?
          >
          > Ever since Alex posted that chart, I have been hoping to take a look at the haplotypes of the men in question and try to make sense of their placement together on the chart, but I have not had the time to do that. I have also wanted to see how these men are placed relative to one another on John Walden's latest charts. I'm behind on sharing new results with the group, so I won't be looking at those haplotypes or charts right now. If anyone else has any ideas about this interesting turn of events, I'd like to hear them.
          >
          > Kirsten
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Samuel Neal" <jarl.downing@...>
          > To: "beatty byrnes dna" <beatty_byrnes_dna@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Tuesday, March 2, 2010 7:48:20 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
          > Subject: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Who is Norman and Who is Irish?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I am sure we talked about this before, but what is the general consensus around here when discussing Norman surnames in this cluster? In short, does everyone think that the Norman names are all native Irish, or what?
          >
          > I know many native Irish chose Norman surnames - and vice versa - but is the presence of Norman matches just that, or could the connection be centuries before the invasion, on the continent?
          >
        • Samuel Neal
          I guess I have to be a member of the L21 group to check out that data set, and I am going to have to look at it. I was just wondering what ideas were on it,
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 2, 2010
            I guess I have to be a member of the L21 group to check out that data set, and I am going to have to look at it. I was just wondering what ideas were on it, especially amongst you statisticians!!

            Judging from what you are saying, Kirsten, I guess there is some divergence between supposed Norman and Irish lines then? There are number of folks with Norman surnames in this group, and several others with Norman names who match the modal as well.

            Could there be a genetic link with the ancient Laigin and the area of Normandy? I know this can't be answered now, but it is interesting to discuss. I also noticed a couple of Norman surnames that suggest Flemish ancestry too (i.e. Fleming, Pendergrass), as well as some Dutch matches to the modal.

            All of these "Normans" could well be Irish, but it is interesting how some surnames point to an origin in or near the Low Countries.

            --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, dnalister@... wrote:
            >
            > I'm glad you asked because that brings up something that I have been wondering about recently. Alex Williamson did a chart based on genetic distances that he posted in the R-L21 Yahoo group. I think that you and many of our other members already belong to this group, so it should be very easy for you to take a peek at Alex's chart in the files section of the group. It's currently listed 5th in the Files section under the heading R-L21 Tree 201.... On page 2, Alex has labeled a small group of five men "A small L159+ or 2c2g cluster". The 5 members of that cluster are all members of our project. Their ancestral surnames are Byrn, Gaston, Ryan, D'Arcy, and Aspel. All except for Byrn are 2c2g. Byrn is the one that is 3c1g, but has DYS464c=15 suggesting a recLOH and a very close match to another Burns who is 2c2g. Byrn is L159+. I noticed how 3 of those names seem to be Norman names. The rest of our Leinster Cluster and Mystery Cluster members are all listed on page 4 as a branch labeled in red as "L159+ (maybe a little bit more)" and the branch is shown separately on page 10 of Alex's file.
            >
            > Kit numbers for the 5 men:
            >
            > 68384 Byrn
            > N38274 Gaston
            > 166226 Ryan
            > 72665 D'Arcy
            > 35805 Aspel
            >
            > Files section for the RL21 group where Alex's chart listed 5th and dated February 24th may be found:
            >
            > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/
            >
            > Fluxus Phylogenetic Charts folder of this group where John's latest charts may be found listed 2nd and 3rd:
            >
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beatty_Byrnes_DNA/files/FLuxus%20Phylogenetic%20Charts/
            >
            > Now don't get me wrong. I don't think that that huge separation between these 5 men and the rest of the group is completely right. The method that Alex uses works well with very large data sets, but it manages to handle those large data sets by looking at genetic distances only, so the way that the haplotypes have changed on individual markers is ignored. Maybe this is one reason for the huge separation found. Still I have to wonder, have Alex's method and the inclusion of so many other R-L21 haplotypes in this chart given us some clue to a real separation between some Norman lines and some other lines in the group?
            >
            > Ever since Alex posted that chart, I have been hoping to take a look at the haplotypes of the men in question and try to make sense of their placement together on the chart, but I have not had the time to do that. I have also wanted to see how these men are placed relative to one another on John Walden's latest charts. I'm behind on sharing new results with the group, so I won't be looking at those haplotypes or charts right now. If anyone else has any ideas about this interesting turn of events, I'd like to hear them.
            >
            > Kirsten
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Samuel Neal" <jarl.downing@...>
            > To: "beatty byrnes dna" <beatty_byrnes_dna@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Tuesday, March 2, 2010 7:48:20 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
            > Subject: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Who is Norman and Who is Irish?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I am sure we talked about this before, but what is the general consensus around here when discussing Norman surnames in this cluster? In short, does everyone think that the Norman names are all native Irish, or what?
            >
            > I know many native Irish chose Norman surnames - and vice versa - but is the presence of Norman matches just that, or could the connection be centuries before the invasion, on the continent?
            >
          • Samuel Neal
            Yeah, they could be Irish/Scots, definitely. But I didn t know that Gaston was in England in 1400. I wouldn t see any other way of explaining that than the
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 2, 2010
              Yeah, they could be Irish/Scots, definitely. But I didn't know that Gaston was in England in 1400. I wouldn't see any other way of explaining that than the surname being Norman.

              --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, "craig" <craigpgaston@...> wrote:
              >
              > As far as Gastons are concerned, we have a legend that says our ancestor was a Huguenot who left France for Scotland some time in the 1600s, and then his sons moved to Northern Ireland. Gastons first show up in Antrim in the 1669 Hearth Money Roll. We have some French and Spanish Gastons in our DNA group, but they don't match us. On the other hand, all our non-Gaston near matches appear to be Scottish or Irish. This could just be due to FTDNA'S UK bias, or it may mean that we really are Irish. There were lots of comings and goings between Scotland and France over the centuries so another possibility is that our lineage was originally Scots/Irish, but one of them emigrated to France and one of his descendants was our Huguenot ancestor who made the return trip back to Scotland. But the Gaston name does appear as early as the 1400s in England, and this lineage was quite likely of Norman origin. We would like to find one of them for DNA testing, but maybe we have - we may be one of them and our legend, just a legend.
              >
              > Craig Gaston
              >
              > --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, dnalister@ wrote:
              > >
              > > I'm glad you asked because that brings up something that I have been wondering about recently. Alex Williamson did a chart based on genetic distances that he posted in the R-L21 Yahoo group. I think that you and many of our other members already belong to this group, so it should be very easy for you to take a peek at Alex's chart in the files section of the group. It's currently listed 5th in the Files section under the heading R-L21 Tree 201.... On page 2, Alex has labeled a small group of five men "A small L159+ or 2c2g cluster". The 5 members of that cluster are all members of our project. Their ancestral surnames are Byrn, Gaston, Ryan, D'Arcy, and Aspel. All except for Byrn are 2c2g. Byrn is the one that is 3c1g, but has DYS464c=15 suggesting a recLOH and a very close match to another Burns who is 2c2g. Byrn is L159+. I noticed how 3 of those names seem to be Norman names. The rest of our Leinster Cluster and Mystery Cluster members are all listed on page 4 as a branch labeled in red as "L159+ (maybe a little bit more)" and the branch is shown separately on page 10 of Alex's file.
              > >
              > > Kit numbers for the 5 men:
              > >
              > > 68384 Byrn
              > > N38274 Gaston
              > > 166226 Ryan
              > > 72665 D'Arcy
              > > 35805 Aspel
              > >
              > > Files section for the RL21 group where Alex's chart listed 5th and dated February 24th may be found:
              > >
              > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/
              > >
              > > Fluxus Phylogenetic Charts folder of this group where John's latest charts may be found listed 2nd and 3rd:
              > >
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beatty_Byrnes_DNA/files/FLuxus%20Phylogenetic%20Charts/
              > >
              > > Now don't get me wrong. I don't think that that huge separation between these 5 men and the rest of the group is completely right. The method that Alex uses works well with very large data sets, but it manages to handle those large data sets by looking at genetic distances only, so the way that the haplotypes have changed on individual markers is ignored. Maybe this is one reason for the huge separation found. Still I have to wonder, have Alex's method and the inclusion of so many other R-L21 haplotypes in this chart given us some clue to a real separation between some Norman lines and some other lines in the group?
              > >
              > > Ever since Alex posted that chart, I have been hoping to take a look at the haplotypes of the men in question and try to make sense of their placement together on the chart, but I have not had the time to do that. I have also wanted to see how these men are placed relative to one another on John Walden's latest charts. I'm behind on sharing new results with the group, so I won't be looking at those haplotypes or charts right now. If anyone else has any ideas about this interesting turn of events, I'd like to hear them.
              > >
              > > Kirsten
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "Samuel Neal" <jarl.downing@>
              > > To: "beatty byrnes dna" <beatty_byrnes_dna@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Tuesday, March 2, 2010 7:48:20 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
              > > Subject: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Who is Norman and Who is Irish?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I am sure we talked about this before, but what is the general consensus around here when discussing Norman surnames in this cluster? In short, does everyone think that the Norman names are all native Irish, or what?
              > >
              > > I know many native Irish chose Norman surnames - and vice versa - but is the presence of Norman matches just that, or could the connection be centuries before the invasion, on the continent?
              > >
              >
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