More on zeroing in on ancestral locations Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Recruiting DNA test participants from Ireland, Scotla...
- Yesterday, I posted an introduction to the topic of recruiting participants from lines in the Isles that are likely to be related to our own lines to test. Most of us are interested in establishing our relationships with other families of the same surname, so I mentioned some of the resources available to us for finding out more about the histories of families of various surnames. I referred people to some of the resources on John McLaughlin's website, because I think that all of us should see what we can glean from those resources on our own, but John has access to sources that may not be available online, along with a knowledge of how to interpret the information from those sources, so I encourage any of our project members who are thinking about encouraging men from lines that can be traced to specific locations in the Isles to consult with John. If you want to do this, and you are not too shy about publicly asking for help, I hope you will use this group to inquire so that others researching your surname or just seeking to learn more about the sort of research process they can go through to identify likely ancestral locations for their lines can learn from your posts now and in the future. Another plus to using this group is that you may actually reach someone else who is interested in your line or happens to have contacts or other information that may be helpful to you.
John gave a good example of research into surname history and distribution in his response to my message, using his McLaughlin surname as an example. Recently, John performed a similar search and analysis for the Dooley surname, and I have pasted his report on that from a prior post at the bottom of this message. You can learn a lot by taking the time to familiarize yourself with these reports, noting the resources he used and by observing how he analyzes the information, too.
I thought it was neat how John turned up information about more than one Dooley family, and I shared the information on the County Cork family with the Dooley project administrator, her helper Pat Grogan, and Tom Dooley, our 464xccgg project member. When I checked out the Dooley project results, I found that there were two or three relatively large subgroups in that project, and it appears that John has accounted for two of them. There was considerable enthusiasm among the Dooley researchers for testing to identify the subgroups for men from the Ely O'Carroll line, and I think that there may also be interest in testing for lines from Cork and elsewhere in Ireland.
If in the process of researching your own surname, you find evidence for multiple origins for your surname, you may be able to help your surname project administrator and fellow participants by sharing that information with them. An indirect benefit to our project would be an increased enthusiasm among researchers of your surname for the work we are doing if they realize that they have benefited from it, either directly or indirectly. So I encourage all of you to think about doing this kind of sharing.
John's Dooley analysis:
Normally the fact that a pedigree exists at all is a sign that the
family involved held some importance in local society, usually as a
landholding chieftain or king of a territory. Usually if there is a
pedigree for a family they also appear in the Topographical Poems which
list the territory held.
Here's the entry for O'Dooley in the Topographical Poems.
> O'Dubhlaidhe of great prosperity,O'Donovan's Notes:
> Is king of Feara-Tulach 25 of noble lords.
> Dealbhna mor 26 of fair female bands,
> Pure its chief O'Fionnallain.
25. Feara-Tulach, i.e., Viri collium, now the barony of Fartullagh, in
the south-east of the county of Westmeath. The family of O'Dubhlaidh,
now Dooley, were driven from this territory by the Irish family of
O'Melaghlin, before the English invasion of ireland, and they settled in
Ely O'Carroll, in the present King's county, where they are at this day
very numerous. See Annals of Four Masters, at the years 978, 1021, 1144,
1367. The English family of Tyrell obtained possession of Fartullagh
soon after the ] English invasion.
the pedigree in O'Clery.
GENELACH H. DUBLAIGHE
1772. Giolla criost m Giolla padraig m Giolla criost (col. d) m Solaim m
Duibh rn Dubluighe m Oilella m Mail ugra m Floind m Onchon m Sarain m
Oilella m Con cailligh [d. 1021 AD] m Dublaighe m Oilella (o ta rath
n-Oilella) m Domhnaill m Cionaedha m Branduibh m Eachach m Muiredhaigh m
Aenghusa m Feidlimthe m Edna ceinnselaigh m Labradha m Bresail belaigh.
The battle of Teamhair was gained by Maelseachlainn, son of Domhnall,
over the foreigners of Ath-cliath and of the Islands, and over the sons
of Amhlaeibh in particular, where many were slain, together with
Raghnall, son of Amhlaeibh, heir to the sovereignty of the foreigners;
Conamhail, son of Gilla-Arri; and the orator of Ath-cliath; and a
dreadful slaughter of the foreigners along with them. There fell also in
the heat of the battle Braen, son of Murchadh, royal heir of Leinster;
Conghalach, son of Flann, lord of Gaileanga, and his son, i.e. Maelan;
Fiachna and Cuduilich, the two sons of Dubhlaech, two lords of Feara
Tulach; and Lachtnan, lord of Mughdhorn-Maighen. After this Amhlaeibh
went across the sea, and died at I-Coluim-Cille. After Domhnall, the son
of Muircheartach of the Leather Cloaks, son of Niall Glundubh, had been
twenty-four years in the sovereignty of Ireland, he died at Ard-Macha,
after the victory of penance. In commemoration of this, Dubhdalethe said:
These annal entries from the Four Masters will partially date the
pedigree. It mentions the two sons of Dubhlaech, both lords of Feara
Tulach. Cucaille, son of Dubhlaech, in the annal entry appears to be
the Con cailligh of the pedigree.
Cucaille, son of Dubhlaech, lord of Feara-Tulach, died.
Conchobhar, son of Toirdhealbhach Ua Conchobhair, heir apparent to the
monarchy of Ireland, was killed at Bealach Muine-na-Siride, by Ua
Dubhlaich, lord of Feara-Tulach, for he considered him as a stranger in
sovereignty over the men of Meath.
There's supposed to be another entry in 1367 but I couldn't find it.
In the Fermoy topgraphy in the Book of Lismore - "Tuath O'Conall, from
Gleann-Cubhra to Lehglaise and Hy Dubhlaidh, are the chieftains of that
Tuath, and Liattruim, from Airgeadlonn, eastward to Lebglaise, is the
patrimony of Hy Dubhlaidhe,"
This may be a different Dooley sept of ireland. Fermoy is in Co, Cork.
People writing on the surname Dooley seem to refer to this:
?O Dubhalla appears as one of the minor septs of Muskerry, Co. Cork, but
this seems to be non-existent now.?
There is also some evidence the past existence of Dooleys (by the
ancient name of O'Dubhalla') in Muskerry in County Cork.
A look on the families of Cork (O'Loughlin) lists O'Dooley as chiefs of
Tuath O'Conail in Co. Cork. Probably based on the above reference.
- I have often wondered about the Jordan surname and matching with this group. As far as I know there is no other Jordan's so far who are a match to my Uncle's DNA. I am curious as to what the thoughts are on the Jordan matching? Is the thought that this is a nonpaternal event at some point?Thanks,Patricia
- I just checked the Jordan project, and I found that there are some possible Leinster cluster members in the project. The member with kit number 120689 has 37 marker results and is very close to the Leinster modal haplotype. He isn't that close to your uncle, so I don't know if his Jordan family is the same as yours, but it would be good to figure out the genetic distance between the two men and between your uncle and some of the others in the Jordan project whose haplotypes are consistent with membership in the Leinster cluster. It would be possible to say more about the odds of some of these men being cluster members if they had results for more STRs. There are three administrators for the Jordan project, and it's probably time to write to at least one of them. Do you know any of them? I could write to the lead administrator or to all three.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greber" <cpgreber@...>
To: "Beatty Byrnes DNA" <Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 1, 2009 1:05:54 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: More on zeroing in on ancestral locations Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Recruiting DNA test participants from Ireland, Scotla...
I have often wondered about the Jordan surname and matching with this group. As far as I know there is no other Jordan's so far who are a match to my Uncle's DNA. I am curious as to what the thoughts are on the Jordan matching? Is the thought that this is a nonpaternal event at some point?Thanks,Patricia
- Hi Kirsten,Thanks for your response. I do not know anyone in the Jordan project.Patricia