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Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: more on L21

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  • John McLaughlin
    To: Beatty Byrnes DNA Sent: Sunday, November
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 1, 2008
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      <--- Original Message -----
      From: "Hubert Carmack" <hubertcarmack@...>
      To: "Beatty Byrnes DNA" <Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 7:48:46 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
      Subject: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: more on L21


      My Haplogroup is shown as R1b1b2a1b (short hand R-P312). I am shown as
      Negative for P66 and therefore not shown as R1b1b2a1b6. Does this take
      me out of the BBC group?

      Hubert, the best way to understand your SNP results is to get familiar
      with the ISOGG haplogroup tree (or a similar one in your personal
      results page at FTDNA).

      http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR08.html

      In this diagram you can see four categories listed below L21.
      Downstream is just DNA lingo for below or beneath in a given hierarchy.

      R1b1b2a1b6*
      M37
      M222
      P66

      You tested negative for all the SNPS below L21, ie, M37, P66, M222.
      But you haven't yet taken the test for L21. As it stands right now your
      latest defining SNP is P312/S116. That's why FTDNA has you listed as
      R1b1b2a1b. R1b1b2a1b6 is only given to those who tested + for L21.

      Most of the folks in the ccgg cluster are right there with you - latest
      SNP = P312/S116.

      So in your case the only SNPS that make any difference are M269 and
      below that P312/S116. People who've taken the L21 test add that one
      below P312.

      If you click on the Y-DNA haplotree you'll see the path drawn out
      clearly, ending with P312. But L21 is not listed yet on the FTDNA version.

      As others have said I've no doubt everyone in the ccgg cluster will test
      L21. The main group that this SNP defines is M222, or old R1b1c7, ie, NW
      Irish. It's old - how old I don't think anyone knows yet - but old
      enough for the STR markers of M222 and the ccgg cluster to have mutated
      beyond recognition.

      Here's what EthnoAncestry had to say about the other subgroups under L21.

      M222 has recently been shown by EthnoAncestry to mark the "Irish"
      subgroup of R1b, characterizing the series of Irish surnames associated
      with the Ui Neill lineage of Northwest Ireland (descendants of Niall of
      the Nine Hostages) and deeper relatives, including a significant
      proportion of people in the West of Scotland, via the Dalriadic migration.

      P66 was detected in a sample from Italy. It has only been observed once
      to date, although this marker has been tested much less often than the
      others.

      M37 It was first described by Underhill et al (2000) where it was
      reported in 2 people both “Australian” after genotyping 1062 individuals
      from a variety of countries. The Australians were presumably aborigine
      (but perhaps admixed). The SNP was originally detected scanning a global
      population of 53 individuals. To date even though it has been tested
      in at least 7 studies and many thousands of people no further derived
      individuals have been found. Interestingly another SNP rs34289137 has
      been recently found nearby consisting of a C/T mutation and has been
      reported to be derived in 2 out of 44 individuals from a world wide
      sampling, one from North America and another from a multi-national
      group. [This is from John McEwan's web site]

      P66 and M37 are so rare I'm surprised they're still listed in haplogroup
      trees. Dr. Faux once called them private SNPS that should be dropped
      from the list.

      I don't know if anyone has tried this yet but you could try and do a
      TMRCA calculation involving R1b1c7 and the Leinster modal folk to see
      what you come up with. Both are L21.


      John
    • pabloburns@comcast.net
         The Byrne/Burns Project has two more ccgg s. Thaddeus Breen (N6856 PJY4B) is a 37/9 match to four members of our Leinster Byrne group, and I thought this
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 4, 2008
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           The Byrne/Burns Project has two more ccgg's. Thaddeus Breen (N6856 PJY4B) is a 37/9 match to four members of our Leinster Byrne group, and I thought this too far away to include him in it. But since Thaddeus is 14 13 31, 18, and 11 for the key markers I asked him to 464x test, and he is 15c 15c 16g 17g. His earliest known ancestor was a Breen, bc 1818 Dublin.

           Similarly Millard Byrne (107642 GZ3JT) is only 37/6 to two Leinsters so I had him listed as "Unassigned." He tested 15c 15c 17g 18g. Millard is 14 13 30, 18, and 11 for the key indicators. His earliest known ancestor was a Byrn bc 1700 Co. Kildare.

        Paul Burns

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "peter.beattie2" <pdbeattie@...>
        To: "Beatty Byrnes DNA" <Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 9:32:12 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
        Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: more on L21

        Being L21+ I am also P66- tested at EA and also negative for any other
        significant SNPs except for L7 to L10 for which we have very lettle data.
        Have any of our group had a result for L7 to L10?

        Peter D Beattie L286 (Co Sligo Ireland)

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: dnalister@...
        To: Beatty Byrnes DNA
        Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 12:11 AM
        Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: more on L21

        Being negative for P66 is not a problem. The ISOGG tree shows P66 downstream
        from L21, and Earl is negative for the SNPs that subdivide L21. If you were
        positive for P66, that would be a problem. I'm sure that if you were tested
        for L21, you would learn that you are L21+. I'm certain enough that I don't
        recommend that you test L21. Now we have 3 L21+ men in the project, or more.
        I guess that I should go check to see if any of our other members received
        their results for L21 recently. I hope that you and others in our project
        interested in L21 set aside some money to test the next interesting SNP to
        come along.

        Kirsten

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Hubert Carmack" <hubertcarmack@...>
        To: "Beatty Byrnes DNA" <Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 7:48 :46 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
        Subject: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: more on L21

        My Haplogroup is shown as R1b1b2a1b (short hand R-P312). I am shown as
        Negative for P66 and therefore not shown as R1b1b2a1b6. Does this take
        me out of the BBC group?

        This message has been processed by Firetrust Benign.

      • dnalister@comcast.net
        This is good news, because for our age estimates to fit with the number of surnames we have and the scenario of the early Lagin chiefly lines being ccgg, we
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 4, 2008
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          This is good news, because for our age estimates to fit with the number of surnames we have and the scenario of the early Lagin chiefly lines being ccgg, we need to find men like these. I hope that both of you (them) will join the project. It may have taken some getting used to, but because we are looking at connections predating the adoption of surnames, and in Ireland, where surnames were adopted early, we should expect that men in our group will not meet the usual standards of 0-4 mismatches for probable matches and 5-6 mismatches for possible matches for 37 marker comparisons.

          Kirsten Saxe, ccgg project co-administrator

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: pabloburns@...
          To: "Beatty Byrnes DNA" <Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com>
          Cc: "Nicholas Burns" <NicBurns44@...>, "Millard B Byrne" <buckbyrne@...>, "Thaddeus C Breen" <tbreen@...>
          Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 7:58:54 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
          Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: more on L21

             The Byrne/Burns Project has two more ccgg's. Thaddeus Breen (N6856 PJY4B) is a 37/9 match to four members of our Leinster Byrne group, and I thought this too far away to include him in it. But since Thaddeus is 14 13 31, 18, and 11 for the key markers I asked him to 464x test, and he is 15c 15c 16g 17g. His earliest known ancestor was a Breen, bc 1818 Dublin.

             Similarly Millard Byrne (107642 GZ3JT) is only 37/6 to two Leinsters so I had him listed as "Unassigned." He tested 15c 15c 17g 18g. Millard is 14 13 30, 18, and 11 for the key indicators. His earliest known ancestor was a Byrn bc 1700 Co. Kildare.

          Paul Burns
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "peter.beattie2" <pdbeattie@...>
          To: "Beatty Byrnes DNA" <Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 9:32:12 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
          Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: more on L21

          Being L21+ I am also P66- tested at EA and also negative for any other
          significant SNPs except for L7 to L10 for which we have very lettle data.
          Have any of our group had a result for L7 to L10?

          Peter D Beattie L286 (Co Sligo Ireland)

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: dnalister@...
          To: Beatty Byrnes DNA
          Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 12:11 AM
          Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: more on L21

          Being negative for P66 is not a problem. The ISOGG tree shows P66 downstream
          from L21, and Earl is negative for the SNPs that subdivide L21. If you were
          positive for P66, that would be a problem. I'm sure that if you were tested
          for L21, you would learn that you are L21+. I'm certain enough that I don't
          recommend that you test L21. Now we have 3 L21+ men in the project, or more.
          I guess that I should go check to see if any of our other members received
          their results for L21 recently. I hope that you and others in our project
          interested in L21 set aside some money to test the next interesting SNP to
          come along.

          Kirsten

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Hubert Carmack" <hubertcarmack@...>
          To: "Beatty Byrnes DNA" <Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 7:48 :46 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
          Subject: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: more on L21

          My Haplogroup is shown as R1b1b2a1b (short hand R-P312). I am shown as
          Negative for P66 and therefore not shown as R1b1b2a1b6. Does this take
          me out of the BBC group?

          This message has been processed by Firetrust Benign.

        • ilansburyfitzwilliam
          ... number of surnames we have and the scenario of the early Lagin chiefly lines being ccgg, we need to find men like these. I hope that both of you (them)
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 5, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com, dnalister@... wrote:
            >
            > This is good news, because for our age estimates to fit with the
            number of surnames we have and the scenario of the early Lagin chiefly
            lines being ccgg, we need to find men like these. I hope that both of
            you (them) will join the project. It may have taken some getting used
            to, but because we are looking at connections predating the adoption
            of surnames, and in Ireland, where surnames were adopted early, we
            should expect that men in our group will not meet the usual standards
            of 0-4 mismatches for probable matches and 5-6 mismatches for possible
            matches for 37 marker comparisons.
            >
            > Kirsten Saxe , ccgg project co-administrator
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: pabloburns@...
            > To: "Beatty Byrnes DNA" <Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com>
            > Cc: "Nicholas Burns" <NicBurns44@...>, "Millard B Byrne"
            <buckbyrne@...>, "Thaddeus C Breen" <tbreen@...>
            > Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 7:58:54 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada
            Eastern
            > Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: more on L21
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > The Byrne/Burns Project has two more ccgg's. Thaddeus Breen (N6856
            PJY4B) is a 37/9 match to four members of our Leinster Byrne group,
            and I thought this too far away to include him in it. But since
            Thaddeus is 14 13 31, 18, and 11 for the key markers I asked him to
            464x test, and he is 15c 15c 16g 17g. His earliest known ancestor was
            a Breen, bc 1818 Dublin.
            >
            > Similarly Millard Byrne (107642 GZ3JT) is only 37/6 to two Leinsters
            so I had him listed as "Unassigned." He tested 15c 15c 17g 18g.
            Millard is 14 13 30, 18, and 11 for the key indicators. His earliest
            known ancestor was a Byrn bc 1700 Co. Kildare.
            >
            > Paul Burns
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "peter.beattie2" <pdbeattie@...>
            > To: "Beatty Byrnes DNA" <Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 9:32:12 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
            > Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: more on L21
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Being L21+ I am also P66- tested at EA and also negative for any other
            > significant SNPs except for L7 to L10 for which we have very lettle
            data.
            > Have any of our group had a result for L7 to L10?
            >
            > Peter D Beattie L286 (Co Sligo Ireland)
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: dnalister@...
            > To: Beatty Byrnes DNA
            > Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 12:11 AM
            > Subject: Re: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: more on L21
            >
            > Being negative for P66 is not a problem. The ISOGG tree shows P66
            downstream
            > from L21, and Earl is negative for the SNPs that subdivide L21. If
            you were
            > positive for P66, that would be a problem. I'm sure that if you were
            tested
            > for L21, you would learn that you are L21+. I'm certain enough that
            I don't
            > recommend that you test L21. Now we have 3 L21+ men in the project,
            or more.
            > I guess that I should go check to see if any of our other members
            received
            > their results for L21 recently. I hope that you and others in our
            project
            > interested in L21 set aside some money to test the next interesting
            SNP to
            > come along.
            >
            > Kirsten
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Hubert Carmack" < hubertcarmack@... >
            > To: "Beatty Byrnes DNA" < Beatty_Byrnes_DNA@yahoogroups.com >
            > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 7:48 :46 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada
            Eastern
            > Subject: [Beatty_Byrnes_DNA] Re: more on L21
            >
            > My Haplogroup is shown as R1b1b2a1b (short hand R-P312). I am shown as
            > Negative for P66 and therefore not shown as R1b1b2a1b6. Does this take
            > me out of the BBC group?
            >
            > This message has been processed by Firetrust Benign.

            I have tested negative for P66 and positive for L21 and am shown as
            R1b1b2a1b6.

            I have a fairly close match on FTDNA with a GD of 7 on 67 markers with
            a Hubert Edward Carmack.

            Ian
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