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Vehicle Rules -

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  • Ian
    ... vehicles ... This ... rulebook. ... Neil Have had a close look through the word document you uploaded. Looking through it I realised that a major
    Message 1 of 23 , Jan 3, 2008
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      --- In Beamstrike_Sci-fi_Game@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Cooper"
      <neilandannettec@...> wrote:
      >
      > Just posted some ideas about missile launchers etc for both
      vehicles
      > and hand held.
      >
      > Also looking at the tank builder chart, i think we should look at
      > standardising vehicle space for mounting weapons and equipment.
      This
      > can be done if the vehicle rules get integrated into the core
      rulebook.
      >



      Neil

      Have had a close look through the word document you uploaded.
      Looking through it I realised that a major inconsistency existed
      between the revised Heavy Weapon Listing I'd done primarily for
      vehicles and for duplicate weapons being used as Heavy Weapons in
      the ground role. (The issue being over the vehicle mounted weapons
      already incorporating a reduction in the to-hit number due to the on-
      board targeting systems.)

      To get to the bottom of this and try and pick out any other
      discrepancies I've taken the liberty of introducing a new worksheet
      into the Supplemental file which I have now re-issued as version 9.
      In the new sheet which is called Non-Vehicle Mounted Weapons I have
      listed all the Infantry Weapons, Support Weapons and Non Vehicle
      Mounted Heavy Weapons. I've adjusted the original Vehicle weapon
      chart to make it just that one for vehicle only. There are now a
      couple of duplicate entries for some items such as HMGs but it
      clears up any inconsistencies. In addition it allowed me to:

      a) Move the points value away from the To Hit number.

      b) Re-sort the weapons into clearer categories.

      c) Add a template column.


      A number of points have leapt out / occurred to me:

      1. Templates. There seems to be major inconsistencies between
      which weapons have the options to use templates. For instance
      Advanced Assault Rifles and Gyrobolt Rifles do not fire a template,
      but an Assault Rifle does. I suppose the exam question is what
      capability / characteristic does a weapon have to possess for a
      template to be allocated ? My thoughts are that what we are talking
      about here is weapons with a semi-auto / fully auto capability that
      can hose rounds out. Thoughts ?

      2. It was a good idea to introduce a Portable ATGW. My thoughts
      are that these are nearly always crewed (in fact I can't think of
      one that isn't. Suggest a minimum of a 2 man crew to operate.
      Normally several reloads are carried, making it just one shot seems
      quite harsh. Perhaps make it 2 ?
      We have an inconsistency between the to-Hit for man portable and
      vehicle mounted. The figures in your table were the same Neil, but
      of course targeter bonus applied to the man portable. For
      consistency in the supplement I've boosted the numbers for the man-
      portable. (if u get my drift)

      3. Following on from Para 2 suggest that for all heavy weapons there
      is a minimum crew requirement laid down for the weapon to be
      operated. ie to man a HMG a 3 man crew should be required.

      4. Auto-Grenade Launchers are used today on ground mounts, so we
      should include them in the Heavy Weapons listing as well I feel.

      5. I've adjusted the tables as per your message you posted on the
      28th Dec with the exception of moving the shields from a -1 to a -
      2. I understand what your saying here but moving to a -2 makes VH-
      VA completely invulnerable which I'm not sure about . Perhaps we
      should lower all the base to penetrate figures by 1.


      Anyway, these are just my ramblings, ignore, agree with, dismiss /
      ridicule
      as you seem fit :)

      Cheers

      Ian
    • Neil Cooper
      hi Ian, Version 9.0 looking good, thanks for your continued support with this project. ... Yes, advanced assault rifle should have had template capability,
      Message 2 of 23 , Jan 4, 2008
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        hi Ian, Version 9.0 looking good, thanks for your continued support with this project.

        Answers/ discussion from me in bold below:

         

        > Have had a close look through the word document you uploaded.
        > Looking through it I realised that a major inconsistency existed
        > between the revised Heavy Weapon Listing I'd done primarily for
        > vehicles and for duplicate weapons being used as Heavy Weapons in
        > the ground role. (The issue being over the vehicle mounted weapons
        > already incorporating a reduction in the to-hit number due to the on-
        > board targeting systems.)
        >
        > To get to the bottom of this and try and pick out any other
        > discrepancies I've taken the liberty of introducing a new worksheet
        > into the Supplemental file which I have now re-issued as version 9.
        > In the new sheet which is called Non-Vehicle Mounted Weapons I have
        > listed all the Infantry Weapons, Support Weapons and Non Vehicle
        > Mounted Heavy Weapons. I've adjusted the original Vehicle weapon
        > chart to make it just that one for vehicle only. There are now a
        > couple of duplicate entries for some items such as HMGs but it
        > clears up any inconsistencies. In addition it allowed me to:
        >
        > a) Move the points value away from the To Hit number.
        >
        > b) Re-sort the weapons into clearer categories.
        >
        > c) Add a template column.
        >
        >
        > A number of points have leapt out / occurred to me:
        >
        > 1. Templates. There seems to be major inconsistencies between
        > which weapons have the options to use templates. For instance
        > Advanced Assault Rifles and Gyrobolt Rifles do not fire a template,
        > but an Assault Rifle does. I suppose the exam question is what
        > capability / characteristic does a weapon have to possess for a
        > template to be allocated ? My thoughts are that what we are talking
        > about here is weapons with a semi-auto / fully auto capability that
        > can hose rounds out. Thoughts ?

        Yes, advanced assault rifle should have had template capability, same as basic assault rifle, but i had not noticed it wasn't there!- Dont think any other weapons should. Yes, its the full- auto capability which i dont believe a weapon like a bolt rifle should have- too hard to control. Makes some of the slug weapons more attractive, they havn't got a lot else going for them compared to lasers and bolters!


        >
        > 2. It was a good idea to introduce a Portable ATGW. My thoughts
        > are that these are nearly always crewed (in fact I can't think of
        > one that isn't. Suggest a minimum of a 2 man crew to operate.
        > Normally several reloads are carried, making it just one shot seems
        > quite harsh. Perhaps make it 2 ?

        Yes, i wondered about this. I dont like the idea of keeping track of number of shots fired though!- my concept of Beamstrike will always be 'rough and ready'- minimal book keeping. If we introduce crews to support weapons, we can make ammo unlimited instead as an option.


        > We have an inconsistency between the to-Hit for man portable and
        > vehicle mounted. The figures in your table were the same Neil, but
        > of course targeter bonus applied to the man portable. For
        > consistency in the supplement I've boosted the numbers for the man-
        > portable. (if u get my drift)

        Yes, thanks. I dont notice these things, you know!!!

        >
        > 3. Following on from Para 2 suggest that for all heavy weapons there
        > is a minimum crew requirement laid down for the weapon to be
        > operated. ie to man a HMG a 3 man crew should be required.

        Have to disagree with you on this for a couple of reasons:

        1) Rules are then needed to decide what happens if only a partial crew available to man the weapon etc.. more rules/ record keeping. 2)- Weapons of the future dont need big crews, they are all 1  manned you know!!!

        >
        > 4. Auto-Grenade Launchers are used today on ground mounts, so we
        > should include them in the Heavy Weapons listing as well I feel.

        yes, agreed.

        >
        > 5. I've adjusted the tables as per your message you posted on the
        > 28th Dec with the exception of moving the shields from a -1 to a -
        > 2. I understand what your saying here but moving to a -2 makes VH-
        > VA completely invulnerable which I'm not sure about . Perhaps we
        > should lower all the base to penetrate figures by 1.

        Would favour to lowering the base pen by 1 rather than diluting the effect of shields.

        >
        >
        > Anyway, these are just my ramblings, ignore, agree with, dismiss /
        > ridicule
        > as you seem fit :)

        hey, I would never ridicule suggestions!- seriously Ian, so glad we have you on board with this game.

        V9.0 COMMENTS:

        This is looking really good now.  I like what you have done with the new charts, not sure how i will eventually format these back into the core rules word document tho?????

        Question: New comment (well I didnt notice it before anyway)- Tank guns may be fired at individual figures. Fine, but if the weapon power is ,say, TOTAL2, what power is this against figures?- I would say for TOTAL2, it is Total +1 to dice roll, TOTAL2 adds 2 to damage dice roll etc..... any thoughts?

         

        Warm regards

        Neil

      • Ian
        Neil Following up on last posting I have some more observations and ideas: 1. TEMPLATES You mentioned you were concerned a Bolt Rifle shouldn t have a
        Message 3 of 23 , Jan 6, 2008
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          Neil

          Following up on last posting I have some more observations and ideas:

          1. TEMPLATES

          You mentioned you were concerned a Bolt Rifle shouldn't have a
          template. Following this rationale, shouldn't we remove the one for
          the auto-gyrobolter, which I thought was essentially a SMG firing
          bolts ?

          I think for consistencies sake we should think about templates for
          the following as well:

          Heavy Squad Laser
          Heavy Gyro Gun
          Support Gyrobolt Gun
          Smart-Gun
          HMG

          2. I'm with you on the need to keep record keeping to the minimum
          regarding ammo. I still think it may be worth introducing the
          requirement to crew heavy weapons though. The concept of a single
          man (not it PA or DN) being able to lug a HMG, plus the tripod, plus
          all the ammo required for it to fire on full auto fails a reality
          check for me. How about a compromise where you have a rule that
          says if any crew are lost the weapon becomes immobile ?

          3. Could you import the charts back in as picture ?

          4. I added the comment about firing AV shells at Infantry, to
          ensure we had clarity over this. One could argue it is completely
          over the top firing an Armoured Piecing round at a single man,
          however with AD chaps walking around and tanks armed with Railguns
          that only fire AV rounds we need to have this eventuality covered.
          (Certainly I will be :) )

          Hummmm, you are correct we have a sight anomaly now between
          penetration effect on Infantry and that on vehicles. I'd had this
          at the back of my mind a while back, but then like a fool forgot
          about. I see two solutions:

          A. We just clarify that Total 1, 2 and 3 all has the same effect
          on Infantry

          B. Amend the infantry penetration chart to include two new
          penetration categories, Total 2 and Total 3.

          I've amended the Damage QR Sheet (Modified) in the supplement (now
          at version 10) to show what Option B could look like.

          Personally I'm easy either way, although I do think that perhaps
          amending as per Option B better reflects that even if a man is an
          armoured suit (without a shield), if he suffers a DIRECT hit by
          something more powerful than a 120mm round he is just going to cease
          to exist other than at an atomised level... :)

          With your agreement I've amend the Advanced Assault Rifle insert to
          give it the option of a template.


          On a completely different subject, what do we think about Electro
          Magnet Pulse (EMP) weapons ? A weapon that would temporarily
          disable the electronics on a vehicle / powered suit for a couple of
          turns ? (They are used in PC games such as Command & Conquer)

          All the best

          Ian





















          --- In Beamstrike_Sci-fi_Game@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Cooper"
          <neilandannettec@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > hi Ian, Version 9.0 looking good, thanks for your continued
          support with
          > this project.
          >
          > Answers/ discussion from me in bold below:
          >
          >
          > > Have had a close look through the word document you uploaded.
          > > Looking through it I realised that a major inconsistency existed
          > > between the revised Heavy Weapon Listing I'd done primarily for
          > > vehicles and for duplicate weapons being used as Heavy Weapons in
          > > the ground role. (The issue being over the vehicle mounted
          weapons
          > > already incorporating a reduction in the to-hit number due to
          the on-
          > > board targeting systems.)
          > >
          > > To get to the bottom of this and try and pick out any other
          > > discrepancies I've taken the liberty of introducing a new
          worksheet
          > > into the Supplemental file which I have now re-issued as version
          9.
          > > In the new sheet which is called Non-Vehicle Mounted Weapons I
          have
          > > listed all the Infantry Weapons, Support Weapons and Non Vehicle
          > > Mounted Heavy Weapons. I've adjusted the original Vehicle weapon
          > > chart to make it just that one for vehicle only. There are now a
          > > couple of duplicate entries for some items such as HMGs but it
          > > clears up any inconsistencies. In addition it allowed me to:
          > >
          > > a) Move the points value away from the To Hit number.
          > >
          > > b) Re-sort the weapons into clearer categories.
          > >
          > > c) Add a template column.
          > >
          > >
          > > A number of points have leapt out / occurred to me:
          > >
          > > 1. Templates. There seems to be major inconsistencies between
          > > which weapons have the options to use templates. For instance
          > > Advanced Assault Rifles and Gyrobolt Rifles do not fire a
          template,
          > > but an Assault Rifle does. I suppose the exam question is what
          > > capability / characteristic does a weapon have to possess for a
          > > template to be allocated ? My thoughts are that what we are
          talking
          > > about here is weapons with a semi-auto / fully auto capability
          that
          > > can hose rounds out. Thoughts ?
          >
          > Yes, advanced assault rifle should have had template capability,
          same as
          > basic assault rifle, but i had not noticed it wasn't there!- Dont
          think
          > any other weapons should. Yes, its the full- auto capability which
          i
          > dont believe a weapon like a bolt rifle should have- too hard to
          > control. Makes some of the slug weapons more attractive, they
          havn't got
          > a lot else going for them compared to lasers and bolters!
          >
          >
          > >
          > > 2. It was a good idea to introduce a Portable ATGW. My thoughts
          > > are that these are nearly always crewed (in fact I can't think of
          > > one that isn't. Suggest a minimum of a 2 man crew to operate.
          > > Normally several reloads are carried, making it just one shot
          seems
          > > quite harsh. Perhaps make it 2 ?
          >
          > Yes, i wondered about this. I dont like the idea of keeping track
          of
          > number of shots fired though!- my concept of Beamstrike will
          always be
          > 'rough and ready'- minimal book keeping. If we introduce crews to
          > support weapons, we can make ammo unlimited instead as an option.
          >
          >
          > > We have an inconsistency between the to-Hit for man portable and
          > > vehicle mounted. The figures in your table were the same Neil,
          but
          > > of course targeter bonus applied to the man portable. For
          > > consistency in the supplement I've boosted the numbers for the
          man-
          > > portable. (if u get my drift)
          >
          > Yes, thanks. I dont notice these things, you know!!!
          >
          > >
          > > 3. Following on from Para 2 suggest that for all heavy weapons
          there
          > > is a minimum crew requirement laid down for the weapon to be
          > > operated. ie to man a HMG a 3 man crew should be required.
          >
          > Have to disagree with you on this for a couple of reasons:
          >
          > 1) Rules are then needed to decide what happens if only a partial
          crew
          > available to man the weapon etc.. more rules/ record keeping. 2)-
          > Weapons of the future dont need big crews, they are all 1 manned
          you
          > know!!!
          > >
          > > 4. Auto-Grenade Launchers are used today on ground mounts, so we
          > > should include them in the Heavy Weapons listing as well I feel.
          >
          > yes, agreed.
          > >
          > > 5. I've adjusted the tables as per your message you posted on the
          > > 28th Dec with the exception of moving the shields from a -1 to
          a -
          > > 2. I understand what your saying here but moving to a -2 makes
          VH-
          > > VA completely invulnerable which I'm not sure about . Perhaps we
          > > should lower all the base to penetrate figures by 1.
          >
          > Would favour to lowering the base pen by 1 rather than diluting the
          > effect of shields.
          > >
          > >
          > > Anyway, these are just my ramblings, ignore, agree with,
          dismiss /
          > > ridicule
          > > as you seem fit :)
          >
          > hey, I would never ridicule suggestions!- seriously Ian, so glad
          we have
          > you on board with this game.
          >
          > V9.0 COMMENTS:
          >
          > This is looking really good now. I like what you have done with
          the new
          > charts, not sure how i will eventually format these back into the
          core
          > rules word document tho?????
          >
          > Question: New comment (well I didnt notice it before anyway)- Tank
          guns
          > may be fired at individual figures. Fine, but if the weapon power
          is
          > ,say, TOTAL2, what power is this against figures?- I would say for
          > TOTAL2, it is Total +1 to dice roll, TOTAL2 adds 2 to damage dice
          roll
          > etc..... any thoughts?
          >
          >
          >
          > Warm regards
          >
          > Neil
          >
        • Neil Cooper
          Hi Ian, Answers n bold again...... ... not keen on the basic bolt rifle having template fire, i had envisioned this gun as a longer range single/ semi auto
          Message 4 of 23 , Jan 6, 2008
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            Hi Ian, Answers n bold again......

            > 1. TEMPLATES
            >
            > You mentioned you were concerned a Bolt Rifle shouldn't have a
            > template. Following this rationale, shouldn't we remove the one for
            > the auto-gyrobolter, which I thought was essentially a SMG firing
            > bolts ?
            >
            > I think for consistencies sake we should think about templates for
            > the following as well:
            >
            > Heavy Squad Laser
            > Heavy Gyro Gun
            > Support Gyrobolt Gun

            not keen on the basic bolt rifle having template fire, i had envisioned this gun as a longer range single/ semi auto weapon, whereas the autobolter has true auto fire at shorter ranges.

            We could give the 3 you mention above the ability to fire template 3 as an option, instead of long ranged shots and instead of the '2 shots per phase at same target' option.


            > Smart-Gun I had intended that this already uses templates, as per machinegun.
            > HMG-          Rules say HMG can use any template (anyway the 1.2 beta rules do, not sure if 1.1 has this in)
            >
            > 2. I'm with you on the need to keep record keeping to the minimum
            > regarding ammo. I still think it may be worth introducing the
            > requirement to crew heavy weapons though. The concept of a single
            > man (not it PA or DN) being able to lug a HMG, plus the tripod, plus
            > all the ammo required for it to fire on full auto fails a reality
            > check for me. How about a compromise where you have a rule that
            > says if any crew are lost the weapon becomes immobile ?

            Not sure if you have seen the Segregation era supplement for battles in the near future. I had included some rules here with regards to the HMG, Mortar and Snipers that they had to have extra loaders/ spotter crew to function optimally. For the far future games the idea was that even heavy man -portable weapons would have mini- grav plates to allow transportation.

            I would agree to bringing the Segregation era rules for this into the core rulebook for every era, as you say, all that ammo as well would be too much for i man. A 'crew' listing for each heavy weapon in the chart should help.

            And yes, if the crew is depleted, the weapon can still be fired, just not moved anymore. 

            >
            > 3. Could you import the charts back in as picture ?

            Yes probably, just haven't thought about it really yet!!

            >
            > 4. I added the comment about firing AV shells at Infantry, to
            > ensure we had clarity over this. One could argue it is completely
            > over the top firing an Armoured Piecing round at a single man,
            > however with AD chaps walking around and tanks armed with Railguns
            > that only fire AV rounds we need to have this eventuality covered.
            > (Certainly I will be :) )
            >
            > Hummmm, you are correct we have a sight anomaly now between
            > penetration effect on Infantry and that on vehicles. I'd had this
            > at the back of my mind a while back, but then like a fool forgot
            > about. I see two solutions:
            >
            > A. We just clarify that Total 1, 2 and 3 all has the same effect
            > on Infantry
            >
            > B. Amend the infantry penetration chart to include two new
            > penetration categories, Total 2 and Total 3.
            >
            > I've amended the Damage QR Sheet (Modified) in the supplement (now
            > at version 10) to show what Option B could look like.
            >
            > Personally I'm easy either way, although I do think that perhaps
            > amending as per Option B better reflects that even if a man is an
            > armoured suit (without a shield), if he suffers a DIRECT hit by
            > something more powerful than a 120mm round he is just going to cease
            > to exist other than at an atomised level... :)
            >
            > With your agreement I've amend the Advanced Assault Rifle insert to
            > give it the option of a template.


            Yes, cool . option B is good, makes the damage table bigger tho.

            >

            > On a completely different subject, what do we think about Electro
            > Magnet Pulse (EMP) weapons ? A weapon that would temporarily
            > disable the electronics on a vehicle / powered suit for a couple of
            > turns ? (They are used in PC games such as Command & Conquer)
            >

            I am very favourable of adding different weapon concepts into BS, as some of our weapons are very 'samey', In the Star wars supplement i am working on, i have included the Jawa gun and the Imperial DEMP gun, both EMP type weapons which are good against droids, but only low power against living tissue. If you would like to sketch out the rules and points for EMP weapons that would be awesome.

            Cheers

            Neil

          • Ian
            Neil I m okay with your rationale regarding the Basic Bolt Rifle. Looking again down the infantry weapon listing we have some inconsistencies that need sorting
            Message 5 of 23 , Jan 7, 2008
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              Neil

              I'm okay with your rationale regarding the Basic Bolt Rifle.

              Looking again down the infantry weapon listing we have some
              inconsistencies that need sorting I think. For instance we have
              both an Assault Rifle and SMG using a Template 3. IMHO the SMG is
              way too inaccurate for that template. Perhaps we need to go back to
              basics. How about if we assume that:

              a) Weapons that can fire automatic (and have at least a 20 round mag)
              should have the option to use a template.

              b) Weapons with a belt feed ammo supply (or the futuristic
              equivalent) can fire 2 shots at the same target of they opt not to
              use a template.

              c) Short barrelled light weapons such as SMGs and the like - Option
              to Template 1.

              d) Assault Rifles and the like - Option to use Template 2.

              e) Support and Heavy Weapons - Option to use Template 3.

              f) Exceptions to the general rules above are:
              - Bolt Rifles can only fire semi-auto and so don't qualify for a
              template.
              - The Heavy Gyro Gun which is not belt fed and therefore can't fire
              2 shots at same target.


              Following this rationale you get:

              Auto-Gyrobolter: Template 1
              Auto-Laser: Template 1
              Machine Pistol: Template 1
              SMG: Template 1

              Assault Rifle: Template 2
              Advanced Assault Rifle: Template 2
              Blast Carbine: Template 2

              Heavy Squad Laser: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
              Heavy Gyro Gun: Template 3.
              Support Gyro Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
              Smart Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
              Machine Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
              Heavy Machine Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
              Light Mini-Gun: Template 3 or 3 shots at same target.


              On the subject of crews can I suggest (for the Eras when grave pads
              are not widely available):
              HMG, Gyro-bolt Cannon, 20-40mm Auto-Cannon, Auto-Grenade Launcher -
              All require 3 Men.
              Man Portable ATGW - 2 Men.



              On the subject of EMP Weapons, how about we agree a general concept
              of a weapon that for a short time can disrupt the electronics of an
              opponent. To do so a large charge of electricity would be
              required. This by definition restricts its employment.

              Options Available:
              EMP Limpet Grenades (Hand Thrown)
              - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus AI, PA and AD
              infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns.

              EMP Artillery Homing Shells (Off Table)
              - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus AI, PA and AD
              infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. Blast Template 1 for each
              round fired.

              EMP Heavy Weapon (Ground mount) and EMP Vehicle Weapon.
              - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus AI, PA and AD
              infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. Blast Template 1
              - Assuming a direct hit can deactivate a vehicle for 1 x D3 turns.

              Deactivated Weapons cannot fire. Deactivated AI, PA, AD and
              vehicles are assumed to be completely shut down, and are unable to
              move, fire, use sensors or radio comms.

              The affectable weapon list is:
              Laser Pistol
              Laser Rifle
              Auto-Laser
              Gauss Rifle
              P-Beam Rifle
              Sniper Laser
              Advanced Assault (Pulse) Rifle
              Blast Rifle
              Blast Carbine
              Heavy Squad Laser
              Smart Gun
              Light Mini-gun
              AM Beamer
              Missile Launcher
              All Heavy Weapons with the exception of HMGs.

              I do not have any ideas at all on points for EMP weapons. LOL :)

              Any thoughts ?

              Kind regards to all

              Ian





              --- In Beamstrike_Sci-fi_Game@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Cooper"
              <neilandannettec@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Ian, Answers n bold again......
              >
              > > 1. TEMPLATES
              > >
              > > You mentioned you were concerned a Bolt Rifle shouldn't have a
              > > template. Following this rationale, shouldn't we remove the one
              for
              > > the auto-gyrobolter, which I thought was essentially a SMG firing
              > > bolts ?
              > >
              > > I think for consistencies sake we should think about templates
              for
              > > the following as well:
              > >
              > > Heavy Squad Laser
              > > Heavy Gyro Gun
              > > Support Gyrobolt Gun
              >
              > not keen on the basic bolt rifle having template fire, i had
              envisioned
              > this gun as a longer range single/ semi auto weapon, whereas the
              > autobolter has true auto fire at shorter ranges.
              >
              > We could give the 3 you mention above the ability to fire template
              3 as
              > an option, instead of long ranged shots and instead of the '2
              shots per
              > phase at same target' option.
              >
              >
              > > Smart-Gun I had intended that this already uses templates, as per
              > machinegun.
              > > HMG- Rules say HMG can use any template (anyway the 1.2
              beta
              > rules do, not sure if 1.1 has this in)
              > >
              > > 2. I'm with you on the need to keep record keeping to the minimum
              > > regarding ammo. I still think it may be worth introducing the
              > > requirement to crew heavy weapons though. The concept of a single
              > > man (not it PA or DN) being able to lug a HMG, plus the tripod,
              plus
              > > all the ammo required for it to fire on full auto fails a reality
              > > check for me. How about a compromise where you have a rule that
              > > says if any crew are lost the weapon becomes immobile ?
              >
              > Not sure if you have seen the Segregation era supplement for
              battles in
              > the near future. I had included some rules here with regards to
              the HMG,
              > Mortar and Snipers that they had to have extra loaders/ spotter
              crew to
              > function optimally. For the far future games the idea was that even
              > heavy man -portable weapons would have mini- grav plates to allow
              > transportation.
              >
              > I would agree to bringing the Segregation era rules for this into
              the
              > core rulebook for every era, as you say, all that ammo as well
              would be
              > too much for i man. A 'crew' listing for each heavy weapon in the
              chart
              > should help.
              >
              > And yes, if the crew is depleted, the weapon can still be fired,
              just
              > not moved anymore.
              > >
              > > 3. Could you import the charts back in as picture ?
              >
              > Yes probably, just haven't thought about it really yet!!
              > >
              > > 4. I added the comment about firing AV shells at Infantry, to
              > > ensure we had clarity over this. One could argue it is completely
              > > over the top firing an Armoured Piecing round at a single man,
              > > however with AD chaps walking around and tanks armed with
              Railguns
              > > that only fire AV rounds we need to have this eventuality
              covered.
              > > (Certainly I will be :) )
              > >
              > > Hummmm, you are correct we have a sight anomaly now between
              > > penetration effect on Infantry and that on vehicles. I'd had this
              > > at the back of my mind a while back, but then like a fool forgot
              > > about. I see two solutions:
              > >
              > > A. We just clarify that Total 1, 2 and 3 all has the same effect
              > > on Infantry
              > >
              > > B. Amend the infantry penetration chart to include two new
              > > penetration categories, Total 2 and Total 3.
              > >
              > > I've amended the Damage QR Sheet (Modified) in the supplement
              (now
              > > at version 10) to show what Option B could look like.
              > >
              > > Personally I'm easy either way, although I do think that perhaps
              > > amending as per Option B better reflects that even if a man is an
              > > armoured suit (without a shield), if he suffers a DIRECT hit by
              > > something more powerful than a 120mm round he is just going to
              cease
              > > to exist other than at an atomised level... :)
              > >
              > > With your agreement I've amend the Advanced Assault Rifle insert
              to
              > > give it the option of a template.
              >
              >
              > Yes, cool . option B is good, makes the damage table bigger tho.
              > >
              > > On a completely different subject, what do we think about Electro
              > > Magnet Pulse (EMP) weapons ? A weapon that would temporarily
              > > disable the electronics on a vehicle / powered suit for a couple
              of
              > > turns ? (They are used in PC games such as Command & Conquer)
              > >
              >
              > I am very favourable of adding different weapon concepts into BS,
              as
              > some of our weapons are very 'samey', In the Star wars supplement
              i am
              > working on, i have included the Jawa gun and the Imperial DEMP
              gun, both
              > EMP type weapons which are good against droids, but only low power
              > against living tissue. If you would like to sketch out the rules
              and
              > points for EMP weapons that would be awesome.
              >
              > Cheers
              >
              > Neil
              >
            • don clarke
              Like all of these ideas. The EMP idea is good, but could be overly powerful? I d like to see EMP weapons restricted on the battlefield to specialist troops and
              Message 6 of 23 , Jan 8, 2008
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                Like all of these ideas.
                 
                The EMP idea is good, but could be overly powerful? I'd like to see EMP weapons restricted on the battlefield to specialist troops and vehicles (as opposed to being generally available) - rationale for this could be that it's extremely high technology (in whatever era).
                 
                Also, I think it would be fun and more authentic if there were some kind of battle of the rival offensive/defensive electronics. So potentially all effectable weapons/armour/vehicles are shut down, but both the defender and the attacker roll, say a D6 (or a D10), adding or subtracting modifiers (primarily the class of the on-board defensive electronics/ power of the EMP type weapon). If the attacker wins the roll the weapon/armour/vehicle shuts down. If the defender wins the roll there's no effect from the EMP attack.
                 
                Don

                Ian <cm.vulture@...> wrote:
                Neil

                I'm okay with your rationale regarding the Basic Bolt Rifle.

                Looking again down the infantry weapon listing we have some
                inconsistencies that need sorting I think. For instance we have
                both an Assault Rifle and SMG using a Template 3. IMHO the SMG is
                way too inaccurate for that template. Perhaps we need to go back to
                basics. How about if we assume that:

                a) Weapons that can fire automatic (and have at least a 20 round mag)
                should have the option to use a template.

                b) Weapons with a belt feed ammo supply (or the futuristic
                equivalent) can fire 2 shots at the same target of they opt not to
                use a template.

                c) Short barrelled light weapons such as SMGs and the like - Option
                to Template 1.

                d) Assault Rifles and the like - Option to use Template 2.

                e) Support and Heavy Weapons - Option to use Template 3.

                f) Exceptions to the general rules above are:
                - Bolt Rifles can only fire semi-auto and so don't qualify for a
                template.
                - The Heavy Gyro Gun which is not belt fed and therefore can't fire
                2 shots at same target.


                Following this rationale you get:

                Auto-Gyrobolter: Template 1
                Auto-Laser: Template 1
                Machine Pistol: Template 1
                SMG: Template 1

                Assault Rifle: Template 2
                Advanced Assault Rifle: Template 2
                Blast Carbine: Template 2

                Heavy Squad Laser: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                Heavy Gyro Gun: Template 3.
                Support Gyro Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                Smart Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                Machine Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                Heavy Machine Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                Light Mini-Gun: Template 3 or 3 shots at same target.


                On the subject of crews can I suggest (for the Eras when grave pads
                are not widely available):
                HMG, Gyro-bolt Cannon, 20-40mm Auto-Cannon, Auto-Grenade Launcher -
                All require 3 Men.
                Man Portable ATGW - 2 Men.



                On the subject of EMP Weapons, how about we agree a general concept
                of a weapon that for a short time can disrupt the electronics of an
                opponent. To do so a large charge of electricity would be
                required. This by definition restricts its employment.

                Options Available:
                EMP Limpet Grenades (Hand Thrown)
                - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus AI, PA and AD
                infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns.

                EMP Artillery Homing Shells (Off Table)
                - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus AI, PA and AD
                infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. Blast Template 1 for each
                round fired.

                EMP Heavy Weapon (Ground mount) and EMP Vehicle Weapon.
                - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus AI, PA and AD
                infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. Blast Template 1
                - Assuming a direct hit can deactivate a vehicle for 1 x D3 turns.

                Deactivated Weapons cannot fire. Deactivated AI, PA, AD and
                vehicles are assumed to be completely shut down, and are unable to
                move, fire, use sensors or radio comms.

                The affectable weapon list is:
                Laser Pistol
                Laser Rifle
                Auto-Laser
                Gauss Rifle
                P-Beam Rifle
                Sniper Laser
                Advanced Assault (Pulse) Rifle
                Blast Rifle
                Blast Carbine
                Heavy Squad Laser
                Smart Gun
                Light Mini-gun
                AM Beamer
                Missile Launcher
                All Heavy Weapons with the exception of HMGs.

                I do not have any ideas at all on points for EMP weapons. LOL :)

                Any thoughts ?

                Kind regards to all

                Ian




                --- In Beamstrike_Sci- fi_Game@yahoogro ups.com, "Neil Cooper"
                <neilandannettec@ ...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi Ian, Answers n bold again......
                >
                > > 1. TEMPLATES
                > >
                > > You mentioned you were concerned a Bolt Rifle shouldn't have a
                > > template. Following this rationale, shouldn't we remove the one
                for
                > > the auto-gyrobolter, which I thought was essentially a SMG firing
                > > bolts ?
                > >
                > > I think for consistencies sake we should think about templates
                for
                > > the following as well:
                > >
                > > Heavy Squad Laser
                > > Heavy Gyro Gun
                > > Support Gyrobolt Gun
                >
                > not keen on the basic bolt rifle having template fire, i had
                envisioned
                > this gun as a longer range single/ semi auto weapon, whereas the
                > autobolter has true auto fire at shorter ranges.
                >
                > We could give the 3 you mention above the ability to fire template
                3 as
                > an option, instead of long ranged shots and instead of the '2
                shots per
                > phase at same target' option.
                >
                >
                > > Smart-Gun I had intended that this already uses templates, as per
                > machinegun.
                > > HMG- Rules say HMG can use any template (anyway the 1.2
                beta
                > rules do, not sure if 1.1 has this in)
                > >
                > > 2. I'm with you on the need to keep record keeping to the minimum
                > > regarding ammo. I still think it may be worth introducing the
                > > requirement to crew heavy weapons though. The concept of a single
                > > man (not it PA or DN) being able to lug a HMG, plus the tripod,
                plus
                > > all the ammo required for it to fire on full auto fails a reality
                > > check for me. How about a compromise where you have a rule that
                > > says if any crew are lost the weapon becomes immobile ?
                >
                > Not sure if you have seen the Segregation era supplement for
                battles in
                > the near future. I had included some rules here with regards to
                the HMG,
                > Mortar and Snipers that they had to have extra loaders/ spotter
                crew to
                > function optimally. For the far future games the idea was that even
                > heavy man -portable weapons would have mini- grav plates to allow
                > transportation.
                >
                > I would agree to bringing the Segregation era rules for this into
                the
                > core rulebook for every era, as you say, all that ammo as well
                would be
                > too much for i man. A 'crew' listing for each heavy weapon in the
                chart
                > should help.
                >
                > And yes, if the crew is depleted, the weapon can still be fired,
                just
                > not moved anymore.
                > >
                > > 3. Could you import the charts back in as picture ?
                >
                > Yes probably, just haven't thought about it really yet!!
                > >
                > > 4. I added the comment about firing AV shells at Infantry, to
                > > ensure we had clarity over this. One could argue it is completely
                > > over the top firing an Armoured Piecing round at a single man,
                > > however with AD chaps walking around and tanks armed with
                Railguns
                > > that only fire AV rounds we need to have this eventuality
                covered.
                > > (Certainly I will be :) )
                > >
                > > Hummmm, you are correct we have a sight anomaly now between
                > > penetration effect on Infantry and that on vehicles. I'd had this
                > > at the back of my mind a while back, but then like a fool forgot
                > > about. I see two solutions:
                > >
                > > A. We just clarify that Total 1, 2 and 3 all has the same effect
                > > on Infantry
                > >
                > > B. Amend the infantry penetration chart to include two new
                > > penetration categories, Total 2 and Total 3.
                > >
                > > I've amended the Damage QR Sheet (Modified) in the supplement
                (now
                > > at version 10) to show what Option B could look like.
                > >
                > > Personally I'm easy either way, although I do think that perhaps
                > > amending as per Option B better reflects that even if a man is an
                > > armoured suit (without a shield), if he suffers a DIRECT hit by
                > > something more powerful than a 120mm round he is just going to
                cease
                > > to exist other than at an atomised level... :)
                > >
                > > With your agreement I've amend the Advanced Assault Rifle insert
                to
                > > give it the option of a template.
                >
                >
                > Yes, cool . option B is good, makes the damage table bigger tho.
                > >
                > > On a completely different subject, what do we think about Electro
                > > Magnet Pulse (EMP) weapons ? A weapon that would temporarily
                > > disable the electronics on a vehicle / powered suit for a couple
                of
                > > turns ? (They are used in PC games such as Command & Conquer)
                > >
                >
                > I am very favourable of adding different weapon concepts into BS,
                as
                > some of our weapons are very 'samey', In the Star wars supplement
                i am
                > working on, i have included the Jawa gun and the Imperial DEMP
                gun, both
                > EMP type weapons which are good against droids, but only low power
                > against living tissue. If you would like to sketch out the rules
                and
                > points for EMP weapons that would be awesome.
                >
                > Cheers
                >
                > Neil
                >




                Empathy, tolerance, justice :)


                Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox.

              • Neil Cooper
                Hi Don and Ian, my comments in bold as usual! ... EMP weapons restricted on the battlefield to specialist troops and vehicles (as opposed to being generally
                Message 7 of 23 , Jan 8, 2008
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                  Hi Don and Ian, my comments in bold as usual!

                  --- In Beamstrike_Sci-fi_Game@yahoogroups.com, don clarke <yangtze2000@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Like all of these ideas.
                  >
                  > The EMP idea is good, but could be overly powerful? I'd like to see EMP weapons restricted on the battlefield to specialist troops and vehicles (as opposed to being generally available) - rationale for this could be that it's extremely high technology (in whatever era).
                  >

                  Agree, either high points cost associated witht his type of weapon, or some weapon weakness maybe (See below)


                  > Also, I think it would be fun and more authentic if there were some kind of battle of the rival offensive/defensive electronics. So potentially all effectable weapons/armour/vehicles are shut down, but both the defender and the attacker roll, say a D6 (or a D10), adding or subtracting modifiers (primarily the class of the on-board defensive electronics/ power of the EMP type weapon). If the attacker wins the roll the weapon/armour/vehicle shuts down. If the defender wins the roll there's no effect from the EMP attack.
                  >
                  > Don

                  Yes, and what about shields, there should be a shield type effective against EMPs?

                  (See below)
                  >

                  > Ian cm.vulture@... wrote:
                  > Neil
                  >
                  > I'm okay with your rationale regarding the Basic Bolt Rifle.
                  >
                  > Looking again down the infantry weapon listing we have some
                  > inconsistencies that need sorting I think. For instance we have
                  > both an Assault Rifle and SMG using a Template 3. IMHO the SMG is
                  > way too inaccurate for that template. Perhaps we need to go back to
                  > basics. How about if we assume that:
                  >
                  > a) Weapons that can fire automatic (and have at least a 20 round mag)
                  > should have the option to use a template.
                  >
                  > b) Weapons with a belt feed ammo supply (or the futuristic
                  > equivalent) can fire 2 shots at the same target of they opt not to
                  > use a template.
                  >
                  > c) Short barrelled light weapons such as SMGs and the like - Option
                  > to Template 1.
                  >
                  > d) Assault Rifles and the like - Option to use Template 2.
                  >
                  > e) Support and Heavy Weapons - Option to use Template 3.
                  >
                  > f) Exceptions to the general rules above are:
                  > - Bolt Rifles can only fire semi-auto and so don't qualify for a
                  > template.
                  > - The Heavy Gyro Gun which is not belt fed and therefore can't fire
                  > 2 shots at same target.
                  >
                  >
                  > Following this rationale you get:
                  >
                  > Auto-Gyrobolter: Template 1
                  > Auto-Laser: Template 1
                  > Machine Pistol: Template 1
                  > SMG: Template 1
                  >
                  > Assault Rifle: Template 2
                  > Advanced Assault Rifle: Template 2
                  > Blast Carbine: Template 2
                  >
                  > Heavy Squad Laser: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                  > Heavy Gyro Gun: Template 3.
                  > Support Gyro Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                  > Smart Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                  > Machine Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                  > Heavy Machine Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                  > Light Mini-Gun: Template 3 or 3 shots at same target.

                  Yes, looks good, hadnt considered it before as the weapon lists were largely a straight port from IC. Agree, could you update the V10 weapons lists with these modifications please?also the Gyrobolt pistol points cost should be 3 rather than 8. also think suppression should be removed from riot gun and hand grenade.

                  I am working with the core rules again and think rather than try to port your Excel charts into Word (have tried now and the formatting goes bad)- will keep them as a seperate set of QR charts and refer to them in the core rules. Will make it easier to do later tweaking/ additions, without affecting the core rulebook.
                  >
                  >
                  > On the subject of crews can I suggest (for the Eras when grave pads
                  > are not widely available):
                  > HMG, Gyro-bolt Cannon, 20-40mm Auto-Cannon, Auto-Grenade Launcher -
                  > All require 3 Men.
                  > Man Portable ATGW - 2 Men.


                  OK.  Will add some suitable core rules for when the crew of a heavy weapon is depleted.
                  >
                  > On the subject of EMP Weapons, how about we agree a general concept
                  > of a weapon that for a short time can disrupt the electronics of an
                  > opponent. To do so a large charge of electricity would be
                  > required. This by definition restricts its employment.

                  I think the EMP weapons should have a 'power' level and if a 'kill' result is gained for a figure, or a ' penetration' is achieved for a vehicle, then the full EMP effect takes place, otherwise a figure has a glancing blow or no effect, (depending on the roll) and a vehicle is not affected.

                  Energy shields give the usual protection bonus.
                  >
                  > Options Available:
                  > EMP Limpet Grenades (Hand Thrown)
                  > - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus AI, PA and AD
                  > infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. NO BLAST TEMPLATE USED, AFFECTS ONE FIGURE OR BIKE ONLY. 'POWER' EMP level. Added to specialised grenade 'pack'
                  >
                  > EMP Artillery Homing Shells (Off Table)
                  > - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus AI, PA and AD
                  > infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. Blast Template 1 for each
                  > round fired. 'Total2' EMP effect, available as an optional round in off table fire support for an additional 10 points.
                  >
                  > EMP Heavy Weapon (Ground mount) and EMP Vehicle Weapon.
                  > - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus AI, PA and AD
                  > infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. Blast Template 1
                  > - Assuming a direct hit can deactivate a vehicle for 1 x D3 turns.'Total3 EMP effect, Size 1 tank gun, cost is 50 points, ranges and 'to hit' values as 50mm CPP gun.
                  >
                  > Deactivated Weapons cannot fire. Deactivated AI, PA, AD and
                  > vehicles are assumed to be completely shut down, and are unable to
                  > move, fire, use sensors or radio comms.

                  Recon and Command vehicles unable to use any of their communications bonuses whilst under EMP effects.
                  >
                  > The affectable weapon list is:
                  > Laser Pistol
                  > Laser Rifle
                  > Auto-Laser
                  > Gauss Rifle
                  > P-Beam Rifle
                  > Sniper Laser
                  > Advanced Assault (Pulse) Rifle.......Presume due to electronic aiming and ammo counter????
                  > Blast Rifle
                  > Blast Carbine
                  > Heavy Squad Laser
                  > Smart Gun.........Presume due to electronic aim bonus and anti-grav harness??
                  >Minigun...........Presume due to electric rotary action???

                  > AM Beamer
                  > Missile Launcher
                  > All Heavy Weapons with the exception of HMGs.
                  >
                  > I do not have any ideas at all on points for EMP weapons. LOL :)
                  >
                  > Any thoughts ?

                  Great stuff- 1 disagreement, AI (or LA in Beamstrike !) should not be affected by EMP, Light armour is not powered by an exoskeleton, so other than perhaps disruption of  superficial systems like anti-glare visors, comms links etc, should not be stopped.
                  >
                  > Kind regards to all
                  >
                  > Ian
                  >
                  >

                • don clarke
                  Looking good. Don ... Empathy, tolerance, justice :) __________________________________________________________ Sent from Yahoo! Mail - a smarter inbox
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jan 8, 2008
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                    Looking good.

                    Don

                    --- Neil Cooper <neilandannettec@...>
                    wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Don and Ian, my comments in bold as usual!
                    >
                    > --- In Beamstrike_Sci-fi_Game@yahoogroups.com, don
                    > clarke
                    > <yangtze2000@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Like all of these ideas.
                    > >
                    > > The EMP idea is good, but could be overly
                    > powerful? I'd like to see
                    > EMP weapons restricted on the battlefield to
                    > specialist troops and
                    > vehicles (as opposed to being generally available) -
                    > rationale for this
                    > could be that it's extremely high technology (in
                    > whatever era).
                    > >
                    >
                    > Agree, either high points cost associated witht his
                    > type of weapon, or
                    > some weapon weakness maybe (See below)
                    >
                    >
                    > > Also, I think it would be fun and more authentic
                    > if there were some
                    > kind of battle of the rival offensive/defensive
                    > electronics. So
                    > potentially all effectable weapons/armour/vehicles
                    > are shut down, but
                    > both the defender and the attacker roll, say a D6
                    > (or a D10), adding or
                    > subtracting modifiers (primarily the class of the
                    > on-board defensive
                    > electronics/ power of the EMP type weapon). If the
                    > attacker wins the
                    > roll the weapon/armour/vehicle shuts down. If the
                    > defender wins the roll
                    > there's no effect from the EMP attack.
                    > >
                    > > Don
                    >
                    > Yes, and what about shields, there should be a
                    > shield type effective
                    > against EMPs?
                    >
                    > (See below)
                    > >
                    > > Ian cm.vulture@... wrote:
                    > > Neil
                    > >
                    > > I'm okay with your rationale regarding the Basic
                    > Bolt Rifle.
                    > >
                    > > Looking again down the infantry weapon listing we
                    > have some
                    > > inconsistencies that need sorting I think. For
                    > instance we have
                    > > both an Assault Rifle and SMG using a Template 3.
                    > IMHO the SMG is
                    > > way too inaccurate for that template. Perhaps we
                    > need to go back to
                    > > basics. How about if we assume that:
                    > >
                    > > a) Weapons that can fire automatic (and have at
                    > least a 20 round mag)
                    > > should have the option to use a template.
                    > >
                    > > b) Weapons with a belt feed ammo supply (or the
                    > futuristic
                    > > equivalent) can fire 2 shots at the same target of
                    > they opt not to
                    > > use a template.
                    > >
                    > > c) Short barrelled light weapons such as SMGs and
                    > the like - Option
                    > > to Template 1.
                    > >
                    > > d) Assault Rifles and the like - Option to use
                    > Template 2.
                    > >
                    > > e) Support and Heavy Weapons - Option to use
                    > Template 3.
                    > >
                    > > f) Exceptions to the general rules above are:
                    > > - Bolt Rifles can only fire semi-auto and so don't
                    > qualify for a
                    > > template.
                    > > - The Heavy Gyro Gun which is not belt fed and
                    > therefore can't fire
                    > > 2 shots at same target.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Following this rationale you get:
                    > >
                    > > Auto-Gyrobolter: Template 1
                    > > Auto-Laser: Template 1
                    > > Machine Pistol: Template 1
                    > > SMG: Template 1
                    > >
                    > > Assault Rifle: Template 2
                    > > Advanced Assault Rifle: Template 2
                    > > Blast Carbine: Template 2
                    > >
                    > > Heavy Squad Laser: Template 3 or 2 shots at same
                    > target.
                    > > Heavy Gyro Gun: Template 3.
                    > > Support Gyro Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same
                    > target.
                    > > Smart Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                    > > Machine Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                    > > Heavy Machine Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same
                    > target.
                    > > Light Mini-Gun: Template 3 or 3 shots at same
                    > target.
                    >
                    > Yes, looks good, hadnt considered it before as the
                    > weapon lists were
                    > largely a straight port from IC. Agree, could you
                    > update the V10 weapons
                    > lists with these modifications please?also the
                    > Gyrobolt pistol points
                    > cost should be 3 rather than 8. also think
                    > suppression should be removed
                    > from riot gun and hand grenade.
                    >
                    > I am working with the core rules again and think
                    > rather than try to port
                    > your Excel charts into Word (have tried now and the
                    > formatting goes
                    > bad)- will keep them as a seperate set of QR charts
                    > and refer to them in
                    > the core rules. Will make it easier to do later
                    > tweaking/ additions,
                    > without affecting the core rulebook.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On the subject of crews can I suggest (for the
                    > Eras when grave pads
                    > > are not widely available):
                    > > HMG, Gyro-bolt Cannon, 20-40mm Auto-Cannon,
                    > Auto-Grenade Launcher -
                    > > All require 3 Men.
                    > > Man Portable ATGW - 2 Men.
                    >
                    >
                    > OK. Will add some suitable core rules for when the
                    > crew of a heavy
                    > weapon is depleted.
                    > >
                    > > On the subject of EMP Weapons, how about we agree
                    > a general concept
                    > > of a weapon that for a short time can disrupt the
                    > electronics of an
                    > > opponent. To do so a large charge of electricity
                    > would be
                    > > required. This by definition restricts its
                    > employment.
                    >
                    > I think the EMP weapons should have a 'power' level
                    > and if a 'kill'
                    > result is gained for a figure, or a ' penetration'
                    > is achieved for a
                    > vehicle, then the full EMP effect takes place,
                    > otherwise a figure has a
                    > glancing blow or no effect, (depending on the roll)
                    > and a vehicle is not
                    > affected.
                    >
                    > Energy shields give the usual protection bonus.
                    > >
                    > > Options Available:
                    > > EMP Limpet Grenades (Hand Thrown)
                    > > - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus
                    > AI, PA and AD
                    > > infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. NO BLAST
                    > TEMPLATE USED, AFFECTS
                    > ONE FIGURE OR BIKE ONLY. 'POWER' EMP level. Added to
                    > specialised grenade
                    > 'pack'
                    > >
                    > > EMP Artillery Homing Shells (Off Table)
                    > > - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus
                    > AI, PA and AD
                    > > infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. Blast
                    > Template 1 for each
                    > > round fired. 'Total2' EMP effect, available as an
                    > optional round in
                    > off table fire support for an additional 10 points.
                    > >
                    > > EMP Heavy Weapon (Ground mount) and EMP Vehicle
                    > Weapon.
                    > > - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus
                    > AI, PA and AD
                    > > infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. Blast
                    > Template 1
                    > > - Assuming a direct hit can deactivate a vehicle
                    > for 1 x D3
                    > turns.'Total3 EMP effect, Size 1 tank gun, cost is
                    > 50 points, ranges and
                    > 'to hit' values as 50mm CPP gun.
                    > >
                    > > Deactivated Weapons cannot fire. Deactivated AI,
                    > PA, AD and
                    > > vehicles are assumed to be completely shut down,
                    > and are unable to
                    > > move, fire, use sensors or radio comms.
                    >
                    > Recon and Command vehicles unable to use any of
                    > their communications
                    > bonuses whilst under EMP effects.
                    > >
                    > > The affectable weapon list is:
                    > > Laser Pistol
                    > > Laser Rifle
                    > > Auto-Laser
                    > > Gauss Rifle
                    > > P-Beam Rifle
                    > > Sniper Laser
                    > > Advanced Assault (Pulse) Rifle.......Presume due
                    > to electronic aiming
                    > and ammo counter????
                    > > Blast Rifle
                    > > Blast Carbine
                    > > Heavy Squad Laser
                    > > Smart Gun.........Presume due to electronic aim
                    > bonus and anti-grav
                    > harness??
                    > >Minigun...........Presume due to electric rotary
                    > action???
                    >
                    > > AM Beamer
                    > > Missile Launcher
                    > > All Heavy Weapons with the exception of HMGs.
                    > >
                    > > I do not have any ideas at all on points for EMP
                    > weapons. LOL :)
                    > >
                    > > Any thoughts ?
                    >
                    > Great stuff- 1 disagreement, AI (or LA in Beamstrike
                    > !) should not be
                    > affected by EMP, Light armour is not powered by an
                    > exoskeleton, so other
                    > than perhaps disruption of superficial systems like
                    > anti-glare visors,
                    > comms links etc, should not be stopped.
                    > >
                    > > Kind regards to all
                    > >
                    > > Ian
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    Empathy, tolerance, justice :)


                    __________________________________________________________
                    Sent from Yahoo! Mail - a smarter inbox http://uk.mail.yahoo.com
                  • Ian
                    Neil and Don (and of course everyone else whose interested) Okay I ve adjusted the templates to fall in line with the previous discussions and have re-issued
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jan 9, 2008
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                      Neil and Don (and of course everyone else whose interested)

                      Okay I've adjusted the templates to fall in line with the previous
                      discussions and have re-issued the supplement as version 11

                      I've spotted another couple of anomalies:

                      - An Automatic Shotgun has an option to use template 2. I don't
                      believe it should fall into the same category as an Assault
                      Rifle, so I think we should consider downgrading this to Template
                      1. Your thoughts ?

                      - The Blast Carbine has a Template 2 and the option for 2 rounds
                      per phase at same target. For consistency suggest we remove the 2
                      rounds per phase due to ammo limits.

                      I've added some design notes at the bottom of the worksheet to
                      remind us of some of the rationale applied.

                      Given the fragmentation and blast effect of a Grenade I would have
                      thought we should retain the suppressive effect. Either that or we
                      selectively apply a suppressive effect based on the type of grenade
                      in use. Thoughts ?



                      On the EMP side after doing some reading searching the web on this
                      issue has provided some insights and ideas. We could have EMP
                      weapons fall into three general categories:
                      a) Nuclear bombs.
                      b) Flux Compression Generator (FGC) bombs.
                      http://science.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb3.htm
                      c) Microwave Transmitters.

                      I'll post my new thoughts tomorrow on this...

                      Cheers

                      Ian

                      P.S. Neil I agree with you about AI infantry. My screw up there.





                      --- In Beamstrike_Sci-fi_Game@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Cooper"
                      <neilandannettec@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Don and Ian, my comments in bold as usual!
                      >
                      > --- In Beamstrike_Sci-fi_Game@yahoogroups.com, don clarke
                      > <yangtze2000@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Like all of these ideas.
                      > >
                      > > The EMP idea is good, but could be overly powerful? I'd like to
                      see
                      > EMP weapons restricted on the battlefield to specialist troops and
                      > vehicles (as opposed to being generally available) - rationale for
                      this
                      > could be that it's extremely high technology (in whatever era).
                      > >
                      >
                      > Agree, either high points cost associated witht his type of
                      weapon, or
                      > some weapon weakness maybe (See below)
                      >
                      >
                      > > Also, I think it would be fun and more authentic if there were
                      some
                      > kind of battle of the rival offensive/defensive electronics. So
                      > potentially all effectable weapons/armour/vehicles are shut down,
                      but
                      > both the defender and the attacker roll, say a D6 (or a D10),
                      adding or
                      > subtracting modifiers (primarily the class of the on-board
                      defensive
                      > electronics/ power of the EMP type weapon). If the attacker wins
                      the
                      > roll the weapon/armour/vehicle shuts down. If the defender wins
                      the roll
                      > there's no effect from the EMP attack.
                      > >
                      > > Don
                      >
                      > Yes, and what about shields, there should be a shield type
                      effective
                      > against EMPs?
                      >
                      > (See below)
                      > >
                      > > Ian cm.vulture@ wrote:
                      > > Neil
                      > >
                      > > I'm okay with your rationale regarding the Basic Bolt Rifle.
                      > >
                      > > Looking again down the infantry weapon listing we have some
                      > > inconsistencies that need sorting I think. For instance we have
                      > > both an Assault Rifle and SMG using a Template 3. IMHO the SMG is
                      > > way too inaccurate for that template. Perhaps we need to go back
                      to
                      > > basics. How about if we assume that:
                      > >
                      > > a) Weapons that can fire automatic (and have at least a 20 round
                      mag)
                      > > should have the option to use a template.
                      > >
                      > > b) Weapons with a belt feed ammo supply (or the futuristic
                      > > equivalent) can fire 2 shots at the same target of they opt not
                      to
                      > > use a template.
                      > >
                      > > c) Short barrelled light weapons such as SMGs and the like -
                      Option
                      > > to Template 1.
                      > >
                      > > d) Assault Rifles and the like - Option to use Template 2.
                      > >
                      > > e) Support and Heavy Weapons - Option to use Template 3.
                      > >
                      > > f) Exceptions to the general rules above are:
                      > > - Bolt Rifles can only fire semi-auto and so don't qualify for a
                      > > template.
                      > > - The Heavy Gyro Gun which is not belt fed and therefore can't
                      fire
                      > > 2 shots at same target.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Following this rationale you get:
                      > >
                      > > Auto-Gyrobolter: Template 1
                      > > Auto-Laser: Template 1
                      > > Machine Pistol: Template 1
                      > > SMG: Template 1
                      > >
                      > > Assault Rifle: Template 2
                      > > Advanced Assault Rifle: Template 2
                      > > Blast Carbine: Template 2
                      > >
                      > > Heavy Squad Laser: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                      > > Heavy Gyro Gun: Template 3.
                      > > Support Gyro Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                      > > Smart Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                      > > Machine Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                      > > Heavy Machine Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                      > > Light Mini-Gun: Template 3 or 3 shots at same target.
                      >
                      > Yes, looks good, hadnt considered it before as the weapon lists
                      were
                      > largely a straight port from IC. Agree, could you update the V10
                      weapons
                      > lists with these modifications please?also the Gyrobolt pistol
                      points
                      > cost should be 3 rather than 8. also think suppression should be
                      removed
                      > from riot gun and hand grenade.
                      >
                      > I am working with the core rules again and think rather than try
                      to port
                      > your Excel charts into Word (have tried now and the formatting goes
                      > bad)- will keep them as a seperate set of QR charts and refer to
                      them in
                      > the core rules. Will make it easier to do later tweaking/
                      additions,
                      > without affecting the core rulebook.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On the subject of crews can I suggest (for the Eras when grave
                      pads
                      > > are not widely available):
                      > > HMG, Gyro-bolt Cannon, 20-40mm Auto-Cannon, Auto-Grenade
                      Launcher -
                      > > All require 3 Men.
                      > > Man Portable ATGW - 2 Men.
                      >
                      >
                      > OK. Will add some suitable core rules for when the crew of a heavy
                      > weapon is depleted.
                      > >
                      > > On the subject of EMP Weapons, how about we agree a general
                      concept
                      > > of a weapon that for a short time can disrupt the electronics of
                      an
                      > > opponent. To do so a large charge of electricity would be
                      > > required. This by definition restricts its employment.
                      >
                      > I think the EMP weapons should have a 'power' level and if a 'kill'
                      > result is gained for a figure, or a ' penetration' is achieved for
                      a
                      > vehicle, then the full EMP effect takes place, otherwise a figure
                      has a
                      > glancing blow or no effect, (depending on the roll) and a vehicle
                      is not
                      > affected.
                      >
                      > Energy shields give the usual protection bonus.
                      > >
                      > > Options Available:
                      > > EMP Limpet Grenades (Hand Thrown)
                      > > - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus AI, PA and AD
                      > > infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. NO BLAST TEMPLATE USED,
                      AFFECTS
                      > ONE FIGURE OR BIKE ONLY. 'POWER' EMP level. Added to specialised
                      grenade
                      > 'pack'
                      > >
                      > > EMP Artillery Homing Shells (Off Table)
                      > > - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus AI, PA and AD
                      > > infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. Blast Template 1 for each
                      > > round fired. 'Total2' EMP effect, available as an optional round
                      in
                      > off table fire support for an additional 10 points.
                      > >
                      > > EMP Heavy Weapon (Ground mount) and EMP Vehicle Weapon.
                      > > - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus AI, PA and AD
                      > > infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. Blast Template 1
                      > > - Assuming a direct hit can deactivate a vehicle for 1 x D3
                      > turns.'Total3 EMP effect, Size 1 tank gun, cost is 50 points,
                      ranges and
                      > 'to hit' values as 50mm CPP gun.
                      > >
                      > > Deactivated Weapons cannot fire. Deactivated AI, PA, AD and
                      > > vehicles are assumed to be completely shut down, and are unable
                      to
                      > > move, fire, use sensors or radio comms.
                      >
                      > Recon and Command vehicles unable to use any of their
                      communications
                      > bonuses whilst under EMP effects.
                      > >
                      > > The affectable weapon list is:
                      > > Laser Pistol
                      > > Laser Rifle
                      > > Auto-Laser
                      > > Gauss Rifle
                      > > P-Beam Rifle
                      > > Sniper Laser
                      > > Advanced Assault (Pulse) Rifle.......Presume due to electronic
                      aiming
                      > and ammo counter????
                      > > Blast Rifle
                      > > Blast Carbine
                      > > Heavy Squad Laser
                      > > Smart Gun.........Presume due to electronic aim bonus and anti-
                      grav
                      > harness??
                      > >Minigun...........Presume due to electric rotary action???
                      >
                      > > AM Beamer
                      > > Missile Launcher
                      > > All Heavy Weapons with the exception of HMGs.
                      > >
                      > > I do not have any ideas at all on points for EMP weapons. LOL :)
                      > >
                      > > Any thoughts ?
                      >
                      > Great stuff- 1 disagreement, AI (or LA in Beamstrike !) should not
                      be
                      > affected by EMP, Light armour is not powered by an exoskeleton, so
                      other
                      > than perhaps disruption of superficial systems like anti-glare
                      visors,
                      > comms links etc, should not be stopped.
                      > >
                      > > Kind regards to all
                      > >
                      > > Ian
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • don clarke
                      No problems with any of that. Don ... Empathy, tolerance, justice :) ___________________________________________________________ Support the World Aids
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jan 9, 2008
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                        No problems with any of that.

                        Don


                        --- Ian <cm.vulture@...> wrote:

                        > Neil and Don (and of course everyone else whose
                        > interested)
                        >
                        > Okay I've adjusted the templates to fall in line
                        > with the previous
                        > discussions and have re-issued the supplement as
                        > version 11
                        >
                        > I've spotted another couple of anomalies:
                        >
                        > - An Automatic Shotgun has an option to use
                        > template 2. I don't
                        > believe it should fall into the same category as an
                        > Assault
                        > Rifle, so I think we should consider downgrading
                        > this to Template
                        > 1. Your thoughts ?
                        >
                        > - The Blast Carbine has a Template 2 and the option
                        > for 2 rounds
                        > per phase at same target. For consistency suggest
                        > we remove the 2
                        > rounds per phase due to ammo limits.
                        >
                        > I've added some design notes at the bottom of the
                        > worksheet to
                        > remind us of some of the rationale applied.
                        >
                        > Given the fragmentation and blast effect of a
                        > Grenade I would have
                        > thought we should retain the suppressive effect.
                        > Either that or we
                        > selectively apply a suppressive effect based on the
                        > type of grenade
                        > in use. Thoughts ?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On the EMP side after doing some reading searching
                        > the web on this
                        > issue has provided some insights and ideas. We
                        > could have EMP
                        > weapons fall into three general categories:
                        > a) Nuclear bombs.
                        > b) Flux Compression Generator (FGC) bombs.
                        > http://science.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb3.htm
                        > c) Microwave Transmitters.
                        >
                        > I'll post my new thoughts tomorrow on this...
                        >
                        > Cheers
                        >
                        > Ian
                        >
                        > P.S. Neil I agree with you about AI infantry. My
                        > screw up there.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Beamstrike_Sci-fi_Game@yahoogroups.com, "Neil
                        > Cooper"
                        > <neilandannettec@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hi Don and Ian, my comments in bold as usual!
                        > >
                        > > --- In Beamstrike_Sci-fi_Game@yahoogroups.com, don
                        > clarke
                        > > <yangtze2000@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Like all of these ideas.
                        > > >
                        > > > The EMP idea is good, but could be overly
                        > powerful? I'd like to
                        > see
                        > > EMP weapons restricted on the battlefield to
                        > specialist troops and
                        > > vehicles (as opposed to being generally available)
                        > - rationale for
                        > this
                        > > could be that it's extremely high technology (in
                        > whatever era).
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > Agree, either high points cost associated witht
                        > his type of
                        > weapon, or
                        > > some weapon weakness maybe (See below)
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > Also, I think it would be fun and more authentic
                        > if there were
                        > some
                        > > kind of battle of the rival offensive/defensive
                        > electronics. So
                        > > potentially all effectable weapons/armour/vehicles
                        > are shut down,
                        > but
                        > > both the defender and the attacker roll, say a D6
                        > (or a D10),
                        > adding or
                        > > subtracting modifiers (primarily the class of the
                        > on-board
                        > defensive
                        > > electronics/ power of the EMP type weapon). If the
                        > attacker wins
                        > the
                        > > roll the weapon/armour/vehicle shuts down. If the
                        > defender wins
                        > the roll
                        > > there's no effect from the EMP attack.
                        > > >
                        > > > Don
                        > >
                        > > Yes, and what about shields, there should be a
                        > shield type
                        > effective
                        > > against EMPs?
                        > >
                        > > (See below)
                        > > >
                        > > > Ian cm.vulture@ wrote:
                        > > > Neil
                        > > >
                        > > > I'm okay with your rationale regarding the Basic
                        > Bolt Rifle.
                        > > >
                        > > > Looking again down the infantry weapon listing
                        > we have some
                        > > > inconsistencies that need sorting I think. For
                        > instance we have
                        > > > both an Assault Rifle and SMG using a Template
                        > 3. IMHO the SMG is
                        > > > way too inaccurate for that template. Perhaps we
                        > need to go back
                        > to
                        > > > basics. How about if we assume that:
                        > > >
                        > > > a) Weapons that can fire automatic (and have at
                        > least a 20 round
                        > mag)
                        > > > should have the option to use a template.
                        > > >
                        > > > b) Weapons with a belt feed ammo supply (or the
                        > futuristic
                        > > > equivalent) can fire 2 shots at the same target
                        > of they opt not
                        > to
                        > > > use a template.
                        > > >
                        > > > c) Short barrelled light weapons such as SMGs
                        > and the like -
                        > Option
                        > > > to Template 1.
                        > > >
                        > > > d) Assault Rifles and the like - Option to use
                        > Template 2.
                        > > >
                        > > > e) Support and Heavy Weapons - Option to use
                        > Template 3.
                        > > >
                        > > > f) Exceptions to the general rules above are:
                        > > > - Bolt Rifles can only fire semi-auto and so
                        > don't qualify for a
                        > > > template.
                        > > > - The Heavy Gyro Gun which is not belt fed and
                        > therefore can't
                        > fire
                        > > > 2 shots at same target.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Following this rationale you get:
                        > > >
                        > > > Auto-Gyrobolter: Template 1
                        > > > Auto-Laser: Template 1
                        > > > Machine Pistol: Template 1
                        > > > SMG: Template 1
                        > > >
                        > > > Assault Rifle: Template 2
                        > > > Advanced Assault Rifle: Template 2
                        > > > Blast Carbine: Template 2
                        > > >
                        > > > Heavy Squad Laser: Template 3 or 2 shots at same
                        > target.
                        > > > Heavy Gyro Gun: Template 3.
                        > > > Support Gyro Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same
                        > target.
                        > > > Smart Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                        > > > Machine Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same
                        > target.
                        > > > Heavy Machine Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same
                        > target.
                        > > > Light Mini-Gun: Template 3 or 3 shots at same
                        > target.
                        > >
                        > > Yes, looks good, hadnt considered it before as the
                        > weapon lists
                        > were
                        > > largely a straight port from IC. Agree, could you
                        > update the V10
                        > weapons
                        > > lists with these modifications please?also the
                        > Gyrobolt pistol
                        > points
                        > > cost should be 3 rather than 8. also think
                        > suppression should be
                        > removed
                        > > from riot gun and hand grenade.
                        > >
                        > > I am working with the core rules again and think
                        > rather than try
                        > to port
                        > > your Excel charts into Word (have tried now and
                        > the formatting goes
                        > > bad)- will keep them as a seperate set of QR
                        > charts and refer to
                        > them in
                        > > the core rules. Will make it easier to do later
                        > tweaking/
                        > additions,
                        > > without affecting the core rulebook.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > On the subject of crews can I suggest (for the
                        > Eras when grave
                        > pads
                        > > > are not widely available):
                        > > > HMG, Gyro-bolt Cannon, 20-40mm Auto-Cannon,
                        > Auto-Grenade
                        > Launcher -
                        > > > All require 3 Men.
                        > > > Man Portable ATGW - 2 Men.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > OK. Will add some suitable core rules for when
                        > the crew of a heavy
                        > > weapon is depleted.
                        > > >
                        > > > On the subject of EMP Weapons, how about we
                        > agree a general
                        > concept
                        > > > of a weapon that for a short time can disrupt
                        > the electronics of
                        > an
                        > > > opponent. To do so a large charge of electricity
                        > would be
                        > > > required. This by definition restricts its
                        > employment.
                        > >
                        > > I think the EMP weapons should have a 'power'
                        > level and if a 'kill'
                        > > result is gained for a figure, or a ' penetration'
                        > is achieved for
                        > a
                        > > vehicle, then the full EMP effect takes place,
                        > otherwise a figure
                        > has a
                        > > glancing blow or no effect, (depending on the
                        > roll) and a vehicle
                        > is not
                        > > affected.
                        > >
                        > > Energy shields give the usual protection bonus.
                        > > >
                        > > > Options Available:
                        > > > EMP Limpet Grenades (Hand Thrown)
                        > > > - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus
                        > AI, PA and AD
                        > > > infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. NO BLAST
                        > TEMPLATE USED,
                        > AFFECTS
                        > > ONE FIGURE OR BIKE ONLY. 'POWER' EMP level. Added
                        > to specialised
                        > grenade
                        > > 'pack'
                        > > >
                        > > > EMP Artillery Homing Shells (Off Table)
                        > > > - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus
                        > AI, PA and AD
                        > > > infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. Blast
                        > Template 1 for each
                        > > > round fired. 'Total2' EMP effect, available as
                        > an optional round
                        > in
                        > > off table fire support for an additional 10
                        > points.
                        > > >
                        > > > EMP Heavy Weapon (Ground mount) and EMP Vehicle
                        > Weapon.
                        > > > - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus
                        > AI, PA and AD
                        > > > infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. Blast
                        > Template 1
                        > > > - Assuming a direct hit can deactivate a vehicle
                        > for 1 x D3
                        > > turns.'Total3 EMP effect, Size 1 tank gun, cost is
                        > 50 points,
                        > ranges and
                        > > 'to hit' values as 50mm CPP gun.
                        > > >
                        > > > Deactivated Weapons cannot fire. Deactivated AI,
                        > PA, AD and
                        > > > vehicles are assumed to be completely shut down,
                        > and are unable
                        > to
                        > > > move, fire, use sensors or radio comms.
                        > >
                        > > Recon and Command vehicles unable to use any of
                        > their
                        > communications
                        > > bonuses whilst under EMP effects.
                        > > >
                        > > > The affectable weapon list is:
                        > > > Laser Pistol
                        > > > Laser Rifle
                        > > > Auto-Laser
                        > > > Gauss Rifle
                        > > > P-Beam Rifle
                        > > > Sniper Laser
                        > > > Advanced Assault (Pulse) Rifle.......Presume due
                        > to electronic
                        > aiming
                        > > and ammo counter????
                        > > > Blast Rifle
                        > > > Blast Carbine
                        > > > Heavy Squad Laser
                        > > > Smart Gun.........Presume due to electronic aim
                        > bonus and anti-
                        > grav
                        > > harness??
                        > > >Minigun...........Presume due to electric rotary
                        > action???
                        > >
                        > > > AM Beamer
                        > > > Missile Launcher
                        > > > All Heavy Weapons with the exception of HMGs.
                        > > >
                        > > > I do not have any ideas at all on points for EMP
                        > weapons. LOL :)
                        > > >
                        > > > Any thoughts ?
                        > >
                        > > Great stuff- 1 disagreement, AI (or LA in
                        > Beamstrike !) should not
                        > be
                        > > affected by EMP, Light armour is not powered by an
                        > exoskeleton, so
                        > other
                        > > than perhaps disruption of superficial systems
                        > like anti-glare
                        > visors,
                        > > comms links etc, should not be stopped.
                        > > >
                        > > > Kind regards to all
                        > > >
                        > > > Ian
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        Empathy, tolerance, justice :)


                        ___________________________________________________________
                        Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/
                      • don clarke
                        No problems with any of that. Don ... Empathy, tolerance, justice :) ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Answers - Got a
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jan 9, 2008
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                          No problems with any of that.

                          Don


                          --- Ian <cm.vulture@...> wrote:

                          > Neil and Don (and of course everyone else whose
                          > interested)
                          >
                          > Okay I've adjusted the templates to fall in line
                          > with the previous
                          > discussions and have re-issued the supplement as
                          > version 11
                          >
                          > I've spotted another couple of anomalies:
                          >
                          > - An Automatic Shotgun has an option to use
                          > template 2. I don't
                          > believe it should fall into the same category as an
                          > Assault
                          > Rifle, so I think we should consider downgrading
                          > this to Template
                          > 1. Your thoughts ?
                          >
                          > - The Blast Carbine has a Template 2 and the option
                          > for 2 rounds
                          > per phase at same target. For consistency suggest
                          > we remove the 2
                          > rounds per phase due to ammo limits.
                          >
                          > I've added some design notes at the bottom of the
                          > worksheet to
                          > remind us of some of the rationale applied.
                          >
                          > Given the fragmentation and blast effect of a
                          > Grenade I would have
                          > thought we should retain the suppressive effect.
                          > Either that or we
                          > selectively apply a suppressive effect based on the
                          > type of grenade
                          > in use. Thoughts ?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On the EMP side after doing some reading searching
                          > the web on this
                          > issue has provided some insights and ideas. We
                          > could have EMP
                          > weapons fall into three general categories:
                          > a) Nuclear bombs.
                          > b) Flux Compression Generator (FGC) bombs.
                          > http://science.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb3.htm
                          > c) Microwave Transmitters.
                          >
                          > I'll post my new thoughts tomorrow on this...
                          >
                          > Cheers
                          >
                          > Ian
                          >
                          > P.S. Neil I agree with you about AI infantry. My
                          > screw up there.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Beamstrike_Sci-fi_Game@yahoogroups.com, "Neil
                          > Cooper"
                          > <neilandannettec@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Hi Don and Ian, my comments in bold as usual!
                          > >
                          > > --- In Beamstrike_Sci-fi_Game@yahoogroups.com, don
                          > clarke
                          > > <yangtze2000@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Like all of these ideas.
                          > > >
                          > > > The EMP idea is good, but could be overly
                          > powerful? I'd like to
                          > see
                          > > EMP weapons restricted on the battlefield to
                          > specialist troops and
                          > > vehicles (as opposed to being generally available)
                          > - rationale for
                          > this
                          > > could be that it's extremely high technology (in
                          > whatever era).
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > Agree, either high points cost associated witht
                          > his type of
                          > weapon, or
                          > > some weapon weakness maybe (See below)
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > > Also, I think it would be fun and more authentic
                          > if there were
                          > some
                          > > kind of battle of the rival offensive/defensive
                          > electronics. So
                          > > potentially all effectable weapons/armour/vehicles
                          > are shut down,
                          > but
                          > > both the defender and the attacker roll, say a D6
                          > (or a D10),
                          > adding or
                          > > subtracting modifiers (primarily the class of the
                          > on-board
                          > defensive
                          > > electronics/ power of the EMP type weapon). If the
                          > attacker wins
                          > the
                          > > roll the weapon/armour/vehicle shuts down. If the
                          > defender wins
                          > the roll
                          > > there's no effect from the EMP attack.
                          > > >
                          > > > Don
                          > >
                          > > Yes, and what about shields, there should be a
                          > shield type
                          > effective
                          > > against EMPs?
                          > >
                          > > (See below)
                          > > >
                          > > > Ian cm.vulture@ wrote:
                          > > > Neil
                          > > >
                          > > > I'm okay with your rationale regarding the Basic
                          > Bolt Rifle.
                          > > >
                          > > > Looking again down the infantry weapon listing
                          > we have some
                          > > > inconsistencies that need sorting I think. For
                          > instance we have
                          > > > both an Assault Rifle and SMG using a Template
                          > 3. IMHO the SMG is
                          > > > way too inaccurate for that template. Perhaps we
                          > need to go back
                          > to
                          > > > basics. How about if we assume that:
                          > > >
                          > > > a) Weapons that can fire automatic (and have at
                          > least a 20 round
                          > mag)
                          > > > should have the option to use a template.
                          > > >
                          > > > b) Weapons with a belt feed ammo supply (or the
                          > futuristic
                          > > > equivalent) can fire 2 shots at the same target
                          > of they opt not
                          > to
                          > > > use a template.
                          > > >
                          > > > c) Short barrelled light weapons such as SMGs
                          > and the like -
                          > Option
                          > > > to Template 1.
                          > > >
                          > > > d) Assault Rifles and the like - Option to use
                          > Template 2.
                          > > >
                          > > > e) Support and Heavy Weapons - Option to use
                          > Template 3.
                          > > >
                          > > > f) Exceptions to the general rules above are:
                          > > > - Bolt Rifles can only fire semi-auto and so
                          > don't qualify for a
                          > > > template.
                          > > > - The Heavy Gyro Gun which is not belt fed and
                          > therefore can't
                          > fire
                          > > > 2 shots at same target.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Following this rationale you get:
                          > > >
                          > > > Auto-Gyrobolter: Template 1
                          > > > Auto-Laser: Template 1
                          > > > Machine Pistol: Template 1
                          > > > SMG: Template 1
                          > > >
                          > > > Assault Rifle: Template 2
                          > > > Advanced Assault Rifle: Template 2
                          > > > Blast Carbine: Template 2
                          > > >
                          > > > Heavy Squad Laser: Template 3 or 2 shots at same
                          > target.
                          > > > Heavy Gyro Gun: Template 3.
                          > > > Support Gyro Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same
                          > target.
                          > > > Smart Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same target.
                          > > > Machine Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same
                          > target.
                          > > > Heavy Machine Gun: Template 3 or 2 shots at same
                          > target.
                          > > > Light Mini-Gun: Template 3 or 3 shots at same
                          > target.
                          > >
                          > > Yes, looks good, hadnt considered it before as the
                          > weapon lists
                          > were
                          > > largely a straight port from IC. Agree, could you
                          > update the V10
                          > weapons
                          > > lists with these modifications please?also the
                          > Gyrobolt pistol
                          > points
                          > > cost should be 3 rather than 8. also think
                          > suppression should be
                          > removed
                          > > from riot gun and hand grenade.
                          > >
                          > > I am working with the core rules again and think
                          > rather than try
                          > to port
                          > > your Excel charts into Word (have tried now and
                          > the formatting goes
                          > > bad)- will keep them as a seperate set of QR
                          > charts and refer to
                          > them in
                          > > the core rules. Will make it easier to do later
                          > tweaking/
                          > additions,
                          > > without affecting the core rulebook.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > On the subject of crews can I suggest (for the
                          > Eras when grave
                          > pads
                          > > > are not widely available):
                          > > > HMG, Gyro-bolt Cannon, 20-40mm Auto-Cannon,
                          > Auto-Grenade
                          > Launcher -
                          > > > All require 3 Men.
                          > > > Man Portable ATGW - 2 Men.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > OK. Will add some suitable core rules for when
                          > the crew of a heavy
                          > > weapon is depleted.
                          > > >
                          > > > On the subject of EMP Weapons, how about we
                          > agree a general
                          > concept
                          > > > of a weapon that for a short time can disrupt
                          > the electronics of
                          > an
                          > > > opponent. To do so a large charge of electricity
                          > would be
                          > > > required. This by definition restricts its
                          > employment.
                          > >
                          > > I think the EMP weapons should have a 'power'
                          > level and if a 'kill'
                          > > result is gained for a figure, or a ' penetration'
                          > is achieved for
                          > a
                          > > vehicle, then the full EMP effect takes place,
                          > otherwise a figure
                          > has a
                          > > glancing blow or no effect, (depending on the
                          > roll) and a vehicle
                          > is not
                          > > affected.
                          > >
                          > > Energy shields give the usual protection bonus.
                          > > >
                          > > > Options Available:
                          > > > EMP Limpet Grenades (Hand Thrown)
                          > > > - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus
                          > AI, PA and AD
                          > > > infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. NO BLAST
                          > TEMPLATE USED,
                          > AFFECTS
                          > > ONE FIGURE OR BIKE ONLY. 'POWER' EMP level. Added
                          > to specialised
                          > grenade
                          > > 'pack'
                          > > >
                          > > > EMP Artillery Homing Shells (Off Table)
                          > > > - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus
                          > AI, PA and AD
                          > > > infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. Blast
                          > Template 1 for each
                          > > > round fired. 'Total2' EMP effect, available as
                          > an optional round
                          > in
                          > > off table fire support for an additional 10
                          > points.
                          > > >
                          > > > EMP Heavy Weapon (Ground mount) and EMP Vehicle
                          > Weapon.
                          > > > - Deactivates all the weapons listed below plus
                          > AI, PA and AD
                          > > > infantry, plus Bikes for 1 x D3 turns. Blast
                          > Template 1
                          > > > - Assuming a direct hit can deactivate a vehicle
                          > for 1 x D3
                          > > turns.'Total3 EMP effect, Size 1 tank gun, cost is
                          > 50 points,
                          > ranges and
                          > > 'to hit' values as 50mm CPP gun.
                          > > >
                          > > > Deactivated Weapons cannot fire. Deactivated AI,
                          > PA, AD and
                          > > > vehicles are assumed to be completely shut down,
                          > and are unable
                          > to
                          > > > move, fire, use sensors or radio comms.
                          > >
                          > > Recon and Command vehicles unable to use any of
                          > their
                          > communications
                          > > bonuses whilst under EMP effects.
                          > > >
                          > > > The affectable weapon list is:
                          > > > Laser Pistol
                          > > > Laser Rifle
                          > > > Auto-Laser
                          > > > Gauss Rifle
                          > > > P-Beam Rifle
                          > > > Sniper Laser
                          > > > Advanced Assault (Pulse) Rifle.......Presume due
                          > to electronic
                          > aiming
                          > > and ammo counter????
                          > > > Blast Rifle
                          > > > Blast Carbine
                          > > > Heavy Squad Laser
                          > > > Smart Gun.........Presume due to electronic aim
                          > bonus and anti-
                          > grav
                          > > harness??
                          > > >Minigun...........Presume due to electric rotary
                          > action???
                          > >
                          > > > AM Beamer
                          > > > Missile Launcher
                          > > > All Heavy Weapons with the exception of HMGs.
                          > > >
                          > > > I do not have any ideas at all on points for EMP
                          > weapons. LOL :)
                          > > >
                          > > > Any thoughts ?
                          > >
                          > > Great stuff- 1 disagreement, AI (or LA in
                          > Beamstrike !) should not
                          > be
                          > > affected by EMP, Light armour is not powered by an
                          > exoskeleton, so
                          > other
                          > > than perhaps disruption of superficial systems
                          > like anti-glare
                          > visors,
                          > > comms links etc, should not be stopped.
                          > > >
                          > > > Kind regards to all
                          > > >
                          > > > Ian
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          Empathy, tolerance, justice :)


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                        • Neil Cooper
                          ... Auto shotgun MUST use template 2, the max range is only 4. If we downgrade to must use template 1 this means this weapon only has a range of 3 inches, I
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jan 9, 2008
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                            --- In Beamstrike_Sci-fi_Game@yahoogroups.com, "Ian" <cm.vulture@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Neil and Don (and of course everyone else whose interested)
                            >
                            > Okay I've adjusted the templates to fall in line with the previous
                            > discussions and have re-issued the supplement as version 11
                            >
                            > I've spotted another couple of anomalies:
                            >
                            > - An Automatic Shotgun has an option to use template 2. I don't
                            > believe it should fall into the same category as an Assault
                            > Rifle, so I think we should consider downgrading this to Template
                            > 1. Your thoughts ?

                            Auto shotgun MUST use template 2, the max range is only 4. If we downgrade to 'must use template 1' this means this weapon only has a range of 3 inches, I am OK with this , but perhaps the points cost should go down to 2.
                            >
                            > - The Blast Carbine has a Template 2 and the option for 2 rounds
                            > per phase at same target. For consistency suggest we remove the 2
                            > rounds per phase due to ammo limits.

                            This was in there due to the weapon being the Star Wars blast carbine, seen in some of the movies firing multiple shots quickly.  No strong feelings if removed.
                            >
                            > I've added some design notes at the bottom of the worksheet to
                            > remind us of some of the rationale applied.
                            >
                            > Given the fragmentation and blast effect of a Grenade I would have
                            > thought we should retain the suppressive effect. Either that or we
                            > selectively apply a suppressive effect based on the type of grenade
                            > in use. Thoughts ?

                            Mmmm, Suppression of squads is potentially a powerful tool in the game, and i am not sure whether a single hand grenade would get a whole squad diving for cover and then being pinned until a troop roll is made, this was initially put in the rules to give deployed heavy weapons more clout. I still vote deployed support, heavy and vehicle weapons ONLY for suppression.
                            >
                            > On the EMP side after doing some reading searching the web on this
                            > issue has provided some insights and ideas. We could have EMP
                            > weapons fall into three general categories:
                            > a) Nuclear bombs.
                            > b) Flux Compression Generator (FGC) bombs.
                            > http://science.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb3.htm
                            > c) Microwave Transmitters.
                            >
                            > I'll post my new thoughts tomorrow on this...

                            OK, look forward to that.
                            >
                            > Cheers
                            >
                            > Ian
                            >
                            > P.S. Neil I agree with you about AI infantry. My screw up there.

                            Cool.No worries,  Remember its LA infantry in Beamstrike, AI were the name for them in IC!! ;-)

                          • Ian
                            Neil I ve amended the supplement (now at version 12) to removed the Blast Carbine s 2 shot per phase. On reflection I think you are right about the Grenades.
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jan 10, 2008
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                              Neil

                              I've amended the supplement (now at version 12) to removed the Blast
                              Carbine's 2 shot per phase. On reflection I think you are right
                              about the Grenades. Though I'm pretty sure that a squad would hit
                              the dirt if they saw a grenade coming their way, as soon as it went
                              off they'd be back up. Being under sustained fire from a Support or
                              Heavy weapon is althogther different.

                              Opps keep mixing up LA and AI and AD and DN :)

                              I've had no time today to do any more on the the EMP stuff, although
                              I have inserted a new worksheet into the supplement (called EMP)
                              which we can perhaps use as the framework for our discussions. I'll
                              populate with the stuff we've discussed tommorrow. I've had no time
                              tonight as I've been down at the Huntingdon Club having a Ancients
                              game using the Warhammer Ancient Battle (WAB) rules. My clean
                              living god fearing Romans beat the crap out of some unwashed
                              Barbarian scum :-)

                              Cheers

                              Ian




                              --- In Beamstrike_Sci-fi_Game@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Cooper"
                              <neilandannettec@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Beamstrike_Sci-fi_Game@yahoogroups.com, "Ian" <cm.vulture@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Neil and Don (and of course everyone else whose interested)
                              > >
                              > > Okay I've adjusted the templates to fall in line with the
                              previous
                              > > discussions and have re-issued the supplement as version 11
                              > >
                              > > I've spotted another couple of anomalies:
                              > >
                              > > - An Automatic Shotgun has an option to use template 2. I don't
                              > > believe it should fall into the same category as an Assault
                              > > Rifle, so I think we should consider downgrading this to Template
                              > > 1. Your thoughts ?
                              >
                              > Auto shotgun MUST use template 2, the max range is only 4. If we
                              > downgrade to 'must use template 1' this means this weapon only has
                              a
                              > range of 3 inches, I am OK with this , but perhaps the points cost
                              > should go down to 2.
                              > >
                              > > - The Blast Carbine has a Template 2 and the option for 2 rounds
                              > > per phase at same target. For consistency suggest we remove the 2
                              > > rounds per phase due to ammo limits.
                              >
                              > This was in there due to the weapon being the Star Wars blast
                              carbine,
                              > seen in some of the movies firing multiple shots quickly. No
                              strong
                              > feelings if removed.
                              > >
                              > > I've added some design notes at the bottom of the worksheet to
                              > > remind us of some of the rationale applied.
                              > >
                              > > Given the fragmentation and blast effect of a Grenade I would
                              have
                              > > thought we should retain the suppressive effect. Either that or
                              we
                              > > selectively apply a suppressive effect based on the type of
                              grenade
                              > > in use. Thoughts ?
                              >
                              > Mmmm, Suppression of squads is potentially a powerful tool in the
                              game,
                              > and i am not sure whether a single hand grenade would get a whole
                              squad
                              > diving for cover and then being pinned until a troop roll is made,
                              this
                              > was initially put in the rules to give deployed heavy weapons more
                              > clout. I still vote deployed support, heavy and vehicle weapons
                              ONLY for
                              > suppression.
                              > >
                              > > On the EMP side after doing some reading searching the web on
                              this
                              > > issue has provided some insights and ideas. We could have EMP
                              > > weapons fall into three general categories:
                              > > a) Nuclear bombs.
                              > > b) Flux Compression Generator (FGC) bombs.
                              > > http://science.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb3.htm
                              > > c) Microwave Transmitters.
                              > >
                              > > I'll post my new thoughts tomorrow on this...
                              >
                              > OK, look forward to that.
                              > >
                              > > Cheers
                              > >
                              > > Ian
                              > >
                              > > P.S. Neil I agree with you about AI infantry. My screw up there.
                              >
                              > Cool.No worries, Remember its LA infantry in Beamstrike, AI were
                              the
                              > name for them in IC!! ;-)
                              >
                            • Neil Cooper
                              Ok thanks Ian, Didnt realise you did other genres of miniature gaming as well....
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jan 11, 2008
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                                Ok thanks Ian, Didnt realise you did other genres of miniature gaming
                                as well....
                              • Ian
                                ... gaming ... Oh yes :) 1/300th Modern (multiple armies) 1/300th WW2 (multiple armies) 20mm WW2 (multiple armies) 25mm Ancients (using the WAB rules)
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jan 11, 2008
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                                  --- In Beamstrike_Sci-fi_Game@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Cooper"
                                  <neilandannettec@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Ok thanks Ian, Didnt realise you did other genres of miniature
                                  gaming
                                  > as well....
                                  >


                                  Oh yes :)

                                  1/300th Modern (multiple armies)
                                  1/300th WW2 (multiple armies)
                                  20mm WW2 (multiple armies)
                                  25mm Ancients (using the WAB rules) (multiple armies)
                                  Space Hound (sci-fi space ships)
                                  Warhammer
                                  Warhammer 40k (only v occasionally)
                                  Warmaster (got an army but yet to use it)
                                  Space Hulk
                                  Space Crusade
                                  Blood Bowl
                                  Lots of different types of board games.
                                  15mm Sci-Fi (obviously :) )

                                  plus a bunch of others :)



                                  How about yourself ?

                                  Cheers

                                  Ian
                                • Evyn MacDude
                                  ... That s one I missed... Me mostly 15mm sf, stargrunt etc... with a slowly growing 40k in 15mm set of armies, working on Necrons right now. -- Evyn MacDude
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jan 11, 2008
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                                    On Jan 11, 2008, at 3:02 PM, Ian wrote:

                                    Space Hound (sci-fi space ships)


                                    That's one I missed...

                                    Me mostly 15mm sf, stargrunt etc... with a slowly growing
                                    40k in 15mm set of armies, working on Necrons right now.

                                    --
                                    Evyn MacDude

                                    "When a meeting, or part thereof, is held under the Chatham House Rule, participants are free to use the information received, but neither the identity nor the affiliation of the speaker(s), nor that of any other participant, may be revealed"




                                  • Neil Cooper
                                    Evyn, i loved the 28mm Necrons for WH40K, but it just got too expensive and restrictive for me to keep playing 40K. Had some major issues with the rules as
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jan 11, 2008
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                                      Evyn,
                                      i loved the 28mm Necrons for WH40K, but it just got too expensive and
                                      restrictive for me to keep playing 40K. Had some major issues with the
                                      rules as well.

                                      The 15mm.co.uk 'Automatons' make great 15mm Necrons.
                                      Welcome to the group, hope you post/ contribute some more
                                      cheers
                                      neil
                                    • Evyn MacDude
                                      ... Well it started with Gav Thorpe at a con, we kept torturing with how cool 15mm science fiction is, and how 40k in 15mm would how fix how dorky the
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jan 11, 2008
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                                        On Jan 11, 2008, at 4:48 PM, Neil Cooper wrote:

                                        Evyn,
                                        i loved the 28mm Necrons for WH40K, but it just got too expensive and 
                                        restrictive for me to keep playing 40K. Had some major issues with the 
                                        rules as well.

                                        Well it started with Gav Thorpe at a con, we kept torturing with how cool
                                        15mm science fiction is, and how 40k in 15mm would how fix how 
                                        dorky the tournament tables looked when laden with tanks facing off
                                        across a 3 foot table. This is also when Flames of War was becoming
                                        a big thing.

                                        The 15mm.co.uk 'Automatons' make great 15mm Necrons.

                                        I started with GZGs terminator robots, will probably go their to bulk
                                        out my collection once I "borrow" the codex from one of me mates.

                                        Welcome to the group, hope you post/ contribute some more
                                        cheers

                                        Been here since the beginning, just spent the last 18 months 
                                        hammered with the whole single-parent and grad school thing.

                                        The boy is finally at the age for war-games. 
                                        --
                                        Evyn MacDude

                                        "When a meeting, or part thereof, is held under the Chatham House Rule, participants are free to use the information received, but neither the identity nor the affiliation of the speaker(s), nor that of any other participant, may be revealed"




                                      • Lee Barnes
                                        Other gaming: My favorite is FOW F&IW, BAB and LOTOW Showdown 28mm skirmish games, Sci Fi, Pulp, Horror, Modern OPS. The Sword and The Flame. Westerns using
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jan 11, 2008
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                                          Other gaming:

                                          My favorite is FOW
                                          F&IW, BAB and LOTOW
                                          Showdown 28mm skirmish games, Sci Fi, Pulp, Horror, Modern OPS.
                                          The Sword and The Flame.
                                          Westerns using Showdown or LOTOW, got my Mokiter Sheriff Lee heir.
                                          LOTOR for Fantasy.
                                          Arc of Fire for WWII skirmishing.
                                          DBM for ancients.
                                        • Ian
                                          I think the rules are still available, although not sure about the spaceships anymore. I got mine from Table Top Games (TTG) here in the UK in the early 80s A
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Jan 14, 2008
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                                            I think the rules are still available, although not sure about the
                                            spaceships anymore. I got mine from Table Top Games (TTG) here in
                                            the UK in the early 80s

                                            A v basic set of rules, but quite fun to play

                                            Ian





                                            --- In Beamstrike_Sci-fi_Game@yahoogroups.com, Evyn MacDude
                                            <infojunky@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On Jan 11, 2008, at 3:02 PM, Ian wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > Space Hound (sci-fi space ships)
                                            >
                                            > That's one I missed...
                                            >
                                            > Me mostly 15mm sf, stargrunt etc... with a slowly growing
                                            > 40k in 15mm set of armies, working on Necrons right now.
                                            >
                                            > --
                                            > Evyn MacDude
                                            > infojunky@...
                                            >
                                            > "When a meeting, or part thereof, is held under the Chatham House
                                            > Rule, participants are free to use the information received, but
                                            > neither the identity nor the affiliation of the speaker(s), nor
                                            that
                                            > of any other participant, may be revealed"
                                            >
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