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Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Basic Lightning Protection in my BLOG

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  • Carl
    So, why do they say cars will never get struck by lighting because of the rubber tires? Its isolated from the ground and can have a potential difference. No
    Message 1 of 10 , May 12, 2013
      So, why do they say cars will never get struck by lighting because of the rubber tires?  Its isolated from the ground and can have a potential difference.  No ground wires to earth.

      Sent from my iPhone

      On May 12, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:

       






      Andrew



    • Andres Espino
      While that is true of cars.. there is no way to insulate a boat from the water. The ground (earth or water) has potential and structures attached to the ground
      Message 2 of 10 , May 13, 2013
        While that is true of cars.. there is no way to insulate a boat from the water.
        The ground (earth or water) has potential and structures attached to the ground build up a charge like a big capacitor or glass jar in physics class.  Sharp points let this potential bleed off to the atmosphere making a strike less likely.  Then you may only be struck if you are the tallest object and then the strike will be less damaging and the ground cable can conduct it safely to the water or earth.  Before lightning rods, big rounded roof barns were very bad for building up such a huge charge that they would attract lightning even away from taller structures and in a valley.

        On small boats say 20 to 30 feet it is most common to find the mast or rigging grounded to the keel or a Centerboard pivot pin.  When the keel is encapsuelated metal or lead in fiberglass like the Buvvaneer 240 then boats attach a bronze grounding plate to the hull.  On my Bucc 240 I saw the ground wire clamped to the bronze galley thru hull under the aft bunk.

        Properly grounding your mast will not make you lightning proof.. but it will keep your charge potential at no greater than the surrounding water so you will nopt be a 'lightning magnet'.

        Andrerw

        From: Carl <carl_muehlenbeck@...>
        To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 4:11 PM
        Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Basic Lightning Protection in my BLOG

         
        So, why do they say cars will never get struck by lighting because of the rubber tires?  Its isolated from the ground and can have a potential difference.  No ground wires to earth.

        Sent from my iPhone

        On May 12, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:

         





        Andrew





      • Jbc
        Always been a concern here in Texas...and my original 1976 240 has NO factory lightning protection.   (and it has 4 bolt thru the decking on the mast pulpit
        Message 3 of 10 , May 13, 2013
          Always been a concern here in Texas...and my original 1976 240 has NO factory lightning protection.
           
          (and it has 4 bolt thru the decking on the mast pulpit with a teak doubler  inside underneath....covered of course with the white foam headliner material.)
           
          In harbor I try and console myself that her mast is pretty short compared to the others around her....and I TRY to avoid storms while sailing, although it has gotten pretty sporty on more than one occasion.
           
          I do need to set up something. Bad idea not to. BAD!
           
          Jack
          'Viajera'
           
           

          From: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
          To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 1:03 PM
          Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Basic Lightning Protection in my BLOG
           
          While that is true of cars.. there is no way to insulate a boat from the water.
          The ground (earth or water) has potential and structures attached to the ground build up a charge like a big capacitor or glass jar in physics class.  Sharp points let this potential bleed off to the atmosphere making a strike less likely.  Then you may only be struck if you are the tallest object and then the strike will be less damaging and the ground cable can conduct it safely to the water or earth.  Before lightning rods, big rounded roof barns were very bad for building up such a huge charge that they would attract lightning even away from taller structures and in a valley.

          On small boats say 20 to 30 feet it is most common to find the mast or rigging grounded to the keel or a Centerboard pivot pin.  When the keel is encapsuelated metal or lead in fiberglass like the Buvvaneer 240 then boats attach a bronze grounding plate to the hull.  On my Bucc 240 I saw the ground wire clamped to the bronze galley thru hull under the aft bunk.

          Properly grounding your mast will not make you lightning proof.. but it will keep your charge potential at no greater than the surrounding water so you will nopt be a 'lightning magnet'.

          Andrerw
          From: Carl <carl_muehlenbeck@...>
          To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 4:11 PM
          Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Basic Lightning Protection in my BLOG
           
          So, why do they say cars will never get struck by lighting because of the rubber tires?  Its isolated from the ground and can have a potential difference.  No ground wires to earth.

          Sent from my iPhone
          On May 12, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
           


          Posted Basic Lightning Protection to my BLOG 

          http://andrewssailingtips.blogspot.com/2013/05/basic-lightning-protection.html

          Andrew
        • Andres Espino
          My 1974 Buccaneer 240 had a thick (8 gauge?) copper wire clamped to the bronze galley thru hull under the below cockpit bunk.  Center section starboard
          Message 4 of 10 , May 13, 2013
            My 1974 Buccaneer 240 had a thick (8 gauge?) copper wire clamped to the bronze galley thru hull under the below cockpit bunk.  Center section starboard side.  The wire went back to a bolt on the backstay chainplate.  I have kept the arrangement.  I do not like running a wire from the overhead mast step bolts,  Other than the bronze thruhull ground a dedicated bronze grounding plate would be best and they usually mount through a single hole.

            I dont mind my 249 thruhull method brevause i know the idea us to bleed off the charge more than to make a path for a strike.  If it looks like I will be in a huge thunder storm I will also hang an anchor chain from thre mast base over the side into the water.

            I am also from Texas and always used to put in at Port Isabel where Sandy says they also launch the Texas 200 for Duckworks.  Where abouts are you located?

            Andrew



            From: Jbc <c670cj@...>
            To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 11:18 AM
            Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Basic Lightning Protection in my BLOG

             
            Always been a concern here in Texas...and my original 1976 240 has NO factory lightning protection.
             
            (and it has 4 bolt thru the decking on the mast pulpit with a teak doubler  inside underneath....covered of course with the white foam headliner material.)
             
            In harbor I try and console myself that her mast is pretty short compared to the others around her....and I TRY to avoid storms while sailing, although it has gotten pretty sporty on more than one occasion.
             
            I do need to set up something. Bad idea not to. BAD!
             
            Jack
            'Viajera'
             
             

            From: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
            To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 1:03 PM
            Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Basic Lightning Protection in my BLOG
             
            While that is true of cars.. there is no way to insulate a boat from the water.
            The ground (earth or water) has potential and structures attached to the ground build up a charge like a big capacitor or glass jar in physics class.  Sharp points let this potential bleed off to the atmosphere making a strike less likely.  Then you may only be struck if you are the tallest object and then the strike will be less damaging and the ground cable can conduct it safely to the water or earth.  Before lightning rods, big rounded roof barns were very bad for building up such a huge charge that they would attract lightning even away from taller structures and in a valley.

            On small boats say 20 to 30 feet it is most common to find the mast or rigging grounded to the keel or a Centerboard pivot pin.  When the keel is encapsuelated metal or lead in fiberglass like the Buvvaneer 240 then boats attach a bronze grounding plate to the hull.  On my Bucc 240 I saw the ground wire clamped to the bronze galley thru hull under the aft bunk.

            Properly grounding your mast will not make you lightning proof.. but it will keep your charge potential at no greater than the surrounding water so you will nopt be a 'lightning magnet'.

            Andrerw
            From: Carl <carl_muehlenbeck@...>
            To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 4:11 PM
            Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Basic Lightning Protection in my BLOG
             
            So, why do they say cars will never get struck by lighting because of the rubber tires?  Its isolated from the ground and can have a potential difference.  No ground wires to earth.

            Sent from my iPhone
            On May 12, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
             


            Posted Basic Lightning Protection to my BLOG 

            http://andrewssailingtips.blogspot.com/2013/05/basic-lightning-protection.html

            Andrew


          • Jbc
            Clear Lake/Galveston Bay complex....cant remember all the Hurricanes and Tropical Storms she s weathered. Lucky little girl.   She stays in Tx. My other boat
            Message 5 of 10 , May 13, 2013
              Clear Lake/Galveston Bay complex....cant remember all the Hurricanes and Tropical Storms she's weathered. Lucky little girl.
               
              She stays in Tx. My other boat is at my home in the San Juans of Washington State.

              From: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
              To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 2:55 PM
              Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Basic Lightning Protection in my BLOG
               
              My 1974 Buccaneer 240 had a thick (8 gauge?) copper wire clamped to the bronze galley thru hull under the below cockpit bunk.  Center section starboard side.  The wire went back to a bolt on the backstay chainplate.  I have kept the arrangement.  I do not like running a wire from the overhead mast step bolts,  Other than the bronze thruhull ground a dedicated bronze grounding plate would be best and they usually mount through a single hole. I dont mind my 249 thruhull method brevause i know the idea us to bleed off the charge more than to make a path for a strike.  If it looks like I will be in a huge thunder storm I will also hang an anchor chain from thre mast base over the side into the water. I am also from Texas and always used to put in at Port Isabel where Sandy says they also launch the Texas 200 for Duckworks.  Where abouts are you located? Andrew


              From: Jbc <c670cj@...>
              To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 11:18 AM
              Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Basic Lightning Protection in my BLOG
               
              Always been a concern here in Texas...and my original 1976 240 has NO factory lightning protection.
               
              (and it has 4 bolt thru the decking on the mast pulpit with a teak doubler  inside underneath....covered of course with the white foam headliner material.)
               
              In harbor I try and console myself that her mast is pretty short compared to the others around her....and I TRY to avoid storms while sailing, although it has gotten pretty sporty on more than one occasion.
               
              I do need to set up something. Bad idea not to. BAD!
               
              Jack
              'Viajera'
               
               

              From: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
              To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 1:03 PM
              Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Basic Lightning Protection in my BLOG
               
              While that is true of cars.. there is no way to insulate a boat from the water.
              The ground (earth or water) has potential and structures attached to the ground build up a charge like a big capacitor or glass jar in physics class.  Sharp points let this potential bleed off to the atmosphere making a strike less likely.  Then you may only be struck if you are the tallest object and then the strike will be less damaging and the ground cable can conduct it safely to the water or earth.  Before lightning rods, big rounded roof barns were very bad for building up such a huge charge that they would attract lightning even away from taller structures and in a valley.

              On small boats say 20 to 30 feet it is most common to find the mast or rigging grounded to the keel or a Centerboard pivot pin.  When the keel is encapsuelated metal or lead in fiberglass like the Buvvaneer 240 then boats attach a bronze grounding plate to the hull.  On my Bucc 240 I saw the ground wire clamped to the bronze galley thru hull under the aft bunk.

              Properly grounding your mast will not make you lightning proof.. but it will keep your charge potential at no greater than the surrounding water so you will nopt be a 'lightning magnet'.

              Andrerw
              From: Carl <carl_muehlenbeck@...>
              To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 4:11 PM
              Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Basic Lightning Protection in my BLOG
               
              So, why do they say cars will never get struck by lighting because of the rubber tires?  Its isolated from the ground and can have a potential difference.  No ground wires to earth.

              Sent from my iPhone
              On May 12, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
               


              Posted Basic Lightning Protection to my BLOG 

              http://andrewssailingtips.blogspot.com/2013/05/basic-lightning-protection.html

              Andrew
            • PhilC
              As I recall, more recent studies (lightning is still largely a mystery) they ve decided it s not the tires, it s the faraday cage effect. Cars do get struck,
              Message 6 of 10 , May 14, 2013
                As I recall, more recent studies (lightning is still largely a mystery) they've decided it's not the tires, it's the faraday cage effect.
                Cars do get struck, the tires often get blown out as the lightning path to ground goes right thru them, but the occupants are safe.

                Insurance companies have amassed a large quantity of data over the years.
                I've read everything I can find that has real data and research to back it up, rather than old pros continuing to do what has always been considered the best thing to do, and the only concrete thing I've been able to determine is-
                Ground systems, no grounds, pathways, or not, dissapators or none, no conclusive proof exists that anything actually works better than anything else or nothing at all. It's merely a lottery.
                And even if your boat does get struck, whether or not anything is damaged is merely luck.

                --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Carl <carl_muehlenbeck@...> wrote:
                >
                > So, why do they say cars will never get struck by lighting because of the rubber tires? Its isolated from the ground and can have a potential difference. No ground wires to earth.
                >
                > Sent from my iPhone
                >
                > On May 12, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Posted Basic Lightning Protection to my BLOG
                > >
                > > http://andrewssailingtips.blogspot.com/2013/05/basic-lightning-protection.html
                > >
                > > Andrew
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Carl
                Cause i was thinking, if sky has a different potential than the water, arent you inviting the lightning to strike your mast? Its the tallest object around,
                Message 7 of 10 , May 14, 2013
                  Cause i was thinking, if sky has a different potential than the water, arent you inviting the lightning to strike your mast?  Its the tallest object around, and its at the same potential as the water, because its wired to the keel.  The lightning will pick your boat as the best path to ground.  Now, it could save the occupants because the path will be thru the mast, shrouds, ground strap, keel, eletrical system, not through your family as much.

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On May 14, 2013, at 6:40 PM, "PhilC" <PandD_Collins@...> wrote:

                   

                  As I recall, more recent studies (lightning is still largely a mystery) they've decided it's not the tires, it's the faraday cage effect.
                  Cars do get struck, the tires often get blown out as the lightning path to ground goes right thru them, but the occupants are safe.

                  Insurance companies have amassed a large quantity of data over the years.
                  I've read everything I can find that has real data and research to back it up, rather than old pros continuing to do what has always been considered the best thing to do, and the only concrete thing I've been able to determine is-
                  Ground systems, no grounds, pathways, or not, dissapators or none, no conclusive proof exists that anything actually works better than anything else or nothing at all. It's merely a lottery.
                  And even if your boat does get struck, whether or not anything is damaged is merely luck.

                  --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Carl <carl_muehlenbeck@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > So, why do they say cars will never get struck by lighting because of the rubber tires? Its isolated from the ground and can have a potential difference. No ground wires to earth.
                  >
                  > Sent from my iPhone
                  >
                  > On May 12, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Posted Basic Lightning Protection to my BLOG
                  > >
                  > > http://andrewssailingtips.blogspot.com/2013/05/basic-lightning-protection.html
                  > >
                  > > Andrew
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >

                • Mike
                  During my Tornados, I usually don t worry about the Lightining. Living in N Central Texas (yeah, that would be Tornado Alley s front porch) can be exciting at
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 22, 2013
                    During my Tornados, I usually don't worry about the Lightining.
                    Living in N Central Texas (yeah, that would be Tornado Alley's front
                    porch) can be exciting at times, including 40 degree temperature swings.
                    I'm not a bluebird sailor, but if it's cracking out there, I just don't go. And my slip is in the middle of the dock, so I don't worry about it there. It's kinda like a line of speeding cars, it's either the first one or the last one in line that gets the speeding ticket.
                    Don't worry, be happy.....
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