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Bucc 24 in ocean swells

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  • bob.sparks@rocketmail.com
    I was just off the coast in some big swells coming in at 45 degrees to the wind so one tack was right into the waves. I could time it just right so that I
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 2, 2012
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      I was just off the coast in some big swells coming in at 45 degrees to the wind so one tack was right into the waves. I could time it just right so that I would weave a little bit to not slap on the back side of the wave. The extra free board did give me a dry ride. I think Andre will be happy with the performance once he gets his boat to the coast. Maybe he is there already.

      I did find I missed one tack and got blown back without coming full around. I think it was a combination of wind on the high freeboard and wave.

      I will try to figure out if I should start the tack at the crest of a roller or half up or half way down, to see what works best. I never had to think about that on the river. Its a whole extra dimension, the 3rd, to planning your tacks.

      Bob in Halifax NS
    • bayliner.bill
      Hey, Bob. I sail in the ocean all the time here in eastern Newfoundland and know exactly what you are describing. IMHO, she s not going to come around unless
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 2, 2012
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        Hey, Bob. I sail in the ocean all the time here in eastern Newfoundland and know exactly what you are describing. IMHO, she's not going to come around unless you have more speed. Now I'm not a good sailor and this is my first boat. Would like to hear your further experiences and observations. Did it fell safe to go offshore to you maybe 5 kms?

        --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "bob.sparks@..." <bob.sparks@...> wrote:
        >
        > I was just off the coast in some big swells coming in at 45 degrees to the wind so one tack was right into the waves. I could time it just right so that I would weave a little bit to not slap on the back side of the wave. The extra free board did give me a dry ride. I think Andre will be happy with the performance once he gets his boat to the coast. Maybe he is there already.
        >
        > I did find I missed one tack and got blown back without coming full around. I think it was a combination of wind on the high freeboard and wave.
        >
        > I will try to figure out if I should start the tack at the crest of a roller or half up or half way down, to see what works best. I never had to think about that on the river. Its a whole extra dimension, the 3rd, to planning your tacks.
        >
        > Bob in Halifax NS
        >
      • gts1544
        Bob, I learned to sail on a 14 Hobie Cat (with no foresail) in the ocean north of San Juan, Puerto Rico 35 years ago and spent half of my time in irons
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 2, 2012
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          Bob, I learned to sail on a 14' Hobie Cat (with no foresail) in the ocean north of San Juan, Puerto Rico 35 years ago and spent half of my time in "irons" until I learned the technique of keeping my speed up while climbing the swells, tacking at the very crest and using the surfing effect down the backside to complete the maneuver. Haven't been in irons since, course I am now sailing a 40' Beneteau down there. You might give it a try!

          gts1544 / George in Cheyenne, WY
        • Andres Espino
          Hi Bob, There is one member in here who was sailing off the north Atlantic coast with a 240 and who posted before.. are you that person? I have had a couple
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 2, 2012
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            Hi Bob,

            There is one member in here who was sailing off the north Atlantic coast with a 240 and who posted before.. are you that person?

            I have had a couple financial emergencies and have setbacks and so I am not in the water yet but the boat is 90% refurbished.

            I bought the 240 after learning it is based on an  Alan Payne design of the Columbia 23-T hull with a fixed keel and more ballast.   http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=237
            I have beefed up my 240 by upgrading standing rigging from 1/8 to 3/16 and by adding two removable water tanks on the cabin floor for long voyages.  I added 2 additional batteries and Solar panels and LED lighting.  The added water tanks and batteries give me about 600lbs additional weight on the cabin sole so it should ride more stable.  it altered my capsize ratio from the factory 2.0 to 1.9 now which puts me in a safer ocean category.

            My last boat was a 26ft sharpie and i sailed her in some bad weather up to force 7 storms and managed well by throwing a drogue off the stern to keep me pointed as you were doing.  I plan to carry a drogue on my 240 as well.

            If you look at the lines of your 240 you will see the hull bottom is very 'dory-ish' in design with almost a foot of rocker between bow and transom.  Treated like a sharpie or dory the 240 is a great design which should do well in most conditions if sailed with caution.

            Andrew


            From: "bob.sparks@..." <bob.sparks@...>
            To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, July 2, 2012 11:23 AM
            Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Bucc 24 in ocean swells

             
            I was just off the coast in some big swells coming in at 45 degrees to the wind so one tack was right into the waves. I could time it just right so that I would weave a little bit to not slap on the back side of the wave. The extra free board did give me a dry ride. I think Andre will be happy with the performance once he gets his boat to the coast. Maybe he is there already.

            I did find I missed one tack and got blown back without coming full around. I think it was a combination of wind on the high freeboard and wave.

            I will try to figure out if I should start the tack at the crest of a roller or half up or half way down, to see what works best. I never had to think about that on the river. Its a whole extra dimension, the 3rd, to planning your tacks.

            Bob in Halifax NS



          • Andres Espino
            Bayliner designed the 240 as a coastal family cruiser capable of short offshore voyages.  i think they allowed for passengers to be part of the ballast and so
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 2, 2012
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              Bayliner designed the 240 as a coastal family cruiser capable of short offshore voyages.  i think they allowed for passengers to be part of the ballast and so i found it rides better (like most dories) with some added weight on the floor.  They are beamy and are sluggish to tack but than again so are most dories and many sharpies unless heeled over with a bit of speed.

              the 240 was derogatorily called "Winnebago of The Water" by critics, but a family camper / cruiser is what they were aiming for and not a fast boat.  I am not into speed and as a former banks dory owner I am pleased with the 240 design and its amazing room below decks.

              Andrew



              From: bayliner.bill <bayliner.bill@...>
              To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, July 2, 2012 2:06 PM
              Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bucc 24 in ocean swells

               
              Hey, Bob. I sail in the ocean all the time here in eastern Newfoundland and know exactly what you are describing. IMHO, she's not going to come around unless you have more speed. Now I'm not a good sailor and this is my first boat. Would like to hear your further experiences and observations. Did it fell safe to go offshore to you maybe 5 kms?

              --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "bob.sparks@..." <bob.sparks@...> wrote:
              >
              > I was just off the coast in some big swells coming in at 45 degrees to the wind so one tack was right into the waves. I could time it just right so that I would weave a little bit to not slap on the back side of the wave. The extra free board did give me a dry ride. I think Andre will be happy with the performance once he gets his boat to the coast. Maybe he is there already.
              >
              > I did find I missed one tack and got blown back without coming full around. I think it was a combination of wind on the high freeboard and wave.
              >
              > I will try to figure out if I should start the tack at the crest of a roller or half up or half way down, to see what works best. I never had to think about that on the river. Its a whole extra dimension, the 3rd, to planning your tacks.
              >
              > Bob in Halifax NS
              >



            • Andres Espino
              That technique  sounds like it would work well with a 240 ! I am also toying with the idea of adding a small mizzen sail like Bolger has on his Micro and
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 2, 2012
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                That technique  sounds like it would work well with a 240 !

                I am also toying with the idea of adding a small mizzen sail like Bolger has on his Micro and other sharpies.  It aids in steering and helps the rudder make the stern more responsive.

                it copld be a short 12ft mizzen in a drop-in socket so it could be sailed with or without it.

                Andrew



                From: gts1544 <spettigue@...>
                To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, July 2, 2012 2:30 PM
                Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bucc 24 in ocean swells

                 

                Bob, I learned to sail on a 14' Hobie Cat (with no foresail) in the ocean north of San Juan, Puerto Rico 35 years ago and spent half of my time in "irons" until I learned the technique of keeping my speed up while climbing the swells, tacking at the very crest and using the surfing effect down the backside to complete the maneuver. Haven't been in irons since, course I am now sailing a 40' Beneteau down there. You might give it a try!

                gts1544 / George in Cheyenne, WY



              • Andres Espino
                Bolgers Micro can self steer without a vane with the mizzen in most conditions when the wind is off of or ahead of the beam.  users have reported tracking
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 2, 2012
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                  Bolgers Micro can self steer without a vane with the mizzen in most conditions when the wind is off of or ahead of the beam.  users have reported tracking within + or - 3 degtees bungeed alone.  here is a cool video.  I can see this working with a 240.

                  Bolger Micro Self-Steering


                  Andrew


                  From: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
                  To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, July 2, 2012 3:23 PM
                  Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bucc 24 in ocean swells

                   
                  That technique  sounds like it would work well with a 240 !

                  I am also toying with the idea of adding a small mizzen sail like Bolger has on his Micro and other sharpies.  It aids in steering and helps the rudder make the stern more responsive.

                  it copld be a short 12ft mizzen in a drop-in socket so it could be sailed with or without it.

                  Andrew



                  From: gts1544 <spettigue@...>
                  To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, July 2, 2012 2:30 PM
                  Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bucc 24 in ocean swells

                   

                  Bob, I learned to sail on a 14' Hobie Cat (with no foresail) in the ocean north of San Juan, Puerto Rico 35 years ago and spent half of my time in "irons" until I learned the technique of keeping my speed up while climbing the swells, tacking at the very crest and using the surfing effect down the backside to complete the maneuver. Haven't been in irons since, course I am now sailing a 40' Beneteau down there. You might give it a try!

                  gts1544 / George in Cheyenne, WY





                • TAMUZZA
                  Not so sure it was that the 240 was derogatorily called Winnebago of The Water . I know that the entire Bayliner line of sailboats was.
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 2, 2012
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                    Not so sure it was that the 240 was derogatorily called "Winnebago of The Water". I know that the entire Bayliner line of sailboats was.
                  • PhilC
                    Exactly, try to tack on the top of the wave. Speed is your friend as well...
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 2, 2012
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                      Exactly, try to tack on the top of the wave.
                      Speed is your friend as well...

                      --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "gts1544" <spettigue@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >..spent half of my time in "irons" until I learned the technique of keeping my speed up while climbing the swells, tacking at the very crest .
                    • PhilC
                      5kms or 50, doesn t matter if it s farther than you can swim... ;-)
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 2, 2012
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                        5kms or 50, doesn't matter if it's farther than you can swim... ;-)

                        --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "bayliner.bill" <bayliner.bill@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hey, Bob. I sail in the ocean all the time here in eastern Newfoundland and know exactly what you are describing. IMHO, she's not going to come around unless you have more speed. Now I'm not a good sailor and this is my first boat. Would like to hear your further experiences and observations. Did it fell safe to go offshore to you maybe 5 kms?
                        >
                        > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "bob.sparks@" <bob.sparks@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I was just off the coast in some big swells coming in at 45 degrees to the wind so one tack was right into the waves. I could time it just right so that I would weave a little bit to not slap on the back side of the wave. The extra free board did give me a dry ride. I think Andre will be happy with the performance once he gets his boat to the coast. Maybe he is there already.
                        > >
                        > > I did find I missed one tack and got blown back without coming full around. I think it was a combination of wind on the high freeboard and wave.
                        > >
                        > > I will try to figure out if I should start the tack at the crest of a roller or half up or half way down, to see what works best. I never had to think about that on the river. Its a whole extra dimension, the 3rd, to planning your tacks.
                        > >
                        > > Bob in Halifax NS
                        > >
                        >
                      • PhilC
                        Not the entire line, just the ones with fat hulls, shallow keels and lots of freeboard and a dozen windows. The Peterson and Mull designs aren t even
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 2, 2012
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                          Not the 'entire' line, just the ones with fat hulls, shallow keels and lots of freeboard and a dozen "windows."
                          The Peterson and Mull designs aren't even recocgized by most people as being Bayliners...

                          --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "TAMUZZA" <sv.scheherazade@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Not so sure it was that the 240 was derogatorily called "Winnebago of The Water". I know that the entire Bayliner line of sailboats was.
                          >
                        • PhilC
                          Remember that the sailplan must balance with the underwater foils (keel and rudder) so modifying in that matter might not work well at all. It will move the CE
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jul 2, 2012
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                            Remember that the sailplan must balance with the underwater foils (keel and rudder) so modifying in that matter might not work well at all. It will move the CE aft and might create lots of weather helm.
                            That said, I'm a big fan of modification and experimentation.

                            --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Bolgers Micro can self steer without a vane with the mizzen in most conditions when the wind is off of or ahead of the beam.  users have reported tracking within + or - 3 degtees bungeed alone.  here is a cool video.  I can see this working with a 240.
                            >
                            >
                            > Bolger Micro Self-Steering
                            > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD5BKu9634Y
                            >
                            > Andrew
                            >
                          • bob.sparks@rocketmail.com
                            How far off shore? Thats a question I can t answer. I would say it depends on the shore and how far are spots you could duck out of he weather if it changed. I
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jul 3, 2012
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                              How far off shore? Thats a question I can't answer. I would say it depends on the shore and how far are spots you could duck out of he weather if it changed. I would say that the hull and cabin shape do offer a lot of buoyancy. The guy who crossed the ocean in the twelve foot Tinkerbell made it because the ratio of buoyancy to weight was high. He would get pounded but pop back up like a cork. I have had a few kayaks and can say that the more bulbous the boat the better it handles a pounding as it sheds the water quickly an returns to stability. Those racing sail boats with no cabin bulge would submarine in waves buccs could surf. The racers are a great shape for what kayakers call an "ender" where you bury your bow into the wave so you can get shot up vertically out of the water. Great fun in a boat where self rescue is a technique taught beginners. I would think a bucc shape far less likely to pitch poll than a surf board with a mast.

                              So the bulbous shape will help most if your cabin is sealed shut and you are tethered in the cockpit. Something I would try my best to stay away from but if caught out give me a bucc please.

                              Bob

                              --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "bayliner.bill" <bayliner.bill@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hey, Bob. I sail in the ocean all the time here in eastern Newfoundland and know exactly what you are describing. IMHO, she's not going to come around unless you have more speed. Now I'm not a good sailor and this is my first boat. Would like to hear your further experiences and observations. Did it fell safe to go offshore to you maybe 5 kms?
                              >
                              > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "bob.sparks@" <bob.sparks@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I was just off the coast in some big swells coming in at 45 degrees to the wind so one tack was right into the waves. I could time it just right so that I would weave a little bit to not slap on the back side of the wave. The extra free board did give me a dry ride. I think Andre will be happy with the performance once he gets his boat to the coast. Maybe he is there already.
                              > >
                              > > I did find I missed one tack and got blown back without coming full around. I think it was a combination of wind on the high freeboard and wave.
                              > >
                              > > I will try to figure out if I should start the tack at the crest of a roller or half up or half way down, to see what works best. I never had to think about that on the river. Its a whole extra dimension, the 3rd, to planning your tacks.
                              > >
                              > > Bob in Halifax NS
                              > >
                              >
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