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rudders again

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  • mtboat1
    I am going to need a rudder, for my 240. Mine is still together enough to last another season, but is crap. I would like to make one out of wood. I can
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 4, 2010
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      I am going to need a rudder, for my 240. Mine is still together enough
      to last another season, but is crap. I would like to make one out of wood. I can trace mine and use my own hardware. The question is....what wood? Nothing too pricey. Or exotic, this is Montana.
    • bob.sparks@rocketmail.com
      Two pieces of well dried, thick as you can get it pressure treated plywood glued together works well. You can fibreglass it over. Contrary to what some say
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 5, 2010
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        Two pieces of well dried, thick as you can get it pressure treated plywood glued together works well. You can fibreglass it over. Contrary to what some say Home depot is a good place to buy pressure treated as you can get a piece of the bottom of the pile that has been drying out in the store for a good long time.

        Have you considered repairing the old one. Mine was all crappy around the top where the tiller bolts on. I scooped out all the old crap and filled it with long stand bondo. I bondo-ed in a sleeve of copper pipe for the tiller bolt to go through. This way I have metal against metal not metal against plastic. I could have used stainless. But I figure since the bolt was steel its cheap to replace. After two years of use its holding fine.

        I added a drain plug to the bottom this spring. I still have leaks around the edges but that's this years project. I can put compressed air in the drain plug and find the pin holes with air rushing out easily.

        I don't know why more people don't use bondo long hair on boats.

        http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MAutomotive/Aftermarket/Products/Product-Catalog/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECFTDQCEK3_nid=HL4K87TQZ1gsFDKXQL309JglWF8XGJNQD6bl

        --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "mtboat1" <mtboat1@...> wrote:
        >
        > I am going to need a rudder, for my 240. Mine is still together enough
        > to last another season, but is crap. I would like to make one out of wood. I can trace mine and use my own hardware. The question is....what wood? Nothing too pricey. Or exotic, this is Montana.
        >
      • Andres Espino
        Very good rudders can be maid by 3/4 marine or ext plywood laminated (glued) together for the proper thickness and then  contoured with a belt sander.. then
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 5, 2010
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          Very good rudders can be maid by 3/4 marine or ext plywood laminated (glued) together for the proper thickness and then  contoured with a belt sander.. then epoxied and glassed over.  That really looks like what my 240 rudder is made of anyway.  It is a heavy thing too.  Get new Gudgeons and pintals and hold down while you are at it.

          Andrew



          --- On Thu, 11/4/10, mtboat1 <mtboat1@...> wrote:

          From: mtboat1 <mtboat1@...>
          Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] rudders again
          To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 9:39 PM

           

          I am going to need a rudder, for my 240. Mine is still together enough
          to last another season, but is crap. I would like to make one out of wood. I can trace mine and use my own hardware. The question is....what wood? Nothing too pricey. Or exotic, this is Montana.


        • mtboat1
          Toying with the concept of no glass. I think a wood rudder might be cool. Mine is not gone yet, but every fall I drill a test hole and about a cup of water
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 5, 2010
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            Toying with the concept of no glass. I think a wood rudder might be cool. Mine is not gone yet, but every fall I drill a test hole and about a cup of water comes out, then drips for a few weeks. Lots of cracks and I have done all the repair I am stand. And isn't more wood on a boat a good thing? :)


            --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
            >
            > Very good rudders can be maid by 3/4 marine or ext plywood laminated (glued) together for the proper thickness and then  contoured with a belt sander.. then epoxied and glassed over.  That really looks like what my 240 rudder is made of anyway.  It is a heavy thing too.  Get new Gudgeons and pintals and hold down while you are at it.
            >
            > Andrew
            >
            >
            >
            > --- On Thu, 11/4/10, mtboat1 <mtboat1@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: mtboat1 <mtboat1@...>
            > Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] rudders again
            > To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 9:39 PM
            >
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            > I am going to need a rudder, for my 240. Mine is still together enough
            >
            > to last another season, but is crap. I would like to make one out of wood. I can trace mine and use my own hardware. The question is....what wood? Nothing too pricey. Or exotic, this is Montana.
            >
          • Andres Espino
            Years ago wood was the only choice.  The first boat I ever built (with the scouts in Portsmouth NH_ was an all wood Banks Dory of 19ft with steamed and bent
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 6, 2010
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              Years ago wood was the only choice.  The first boat I ever built (with the scouts in Portsmouth NH_ was an all wood Banks Dory of 19ft with steamed and bent wood strips for the hull.

              But the sea is Hard on wood.. what with waterlogging, dry and wet rot, and paresites that bore into the wood from outside.  Fiberglass has reduced the maintenance and expense of upkeep to a minimum.  So I recommend glassing everything below the beam unless this is a collectible boat which will not be in water much..  Glassing something the size of a rudder will be both cheap and simple.

              Start by "encapsuelating" (coating) the rudder with epoxy, after you have contoured it with a belt sander.  Then add a layer of glass cloth and epoxy and lightly sand.  A thin layer of gel coat is recommended.  Then paint it with bottom paint and don't forget to extend your waterline across the rudder as well.

              Because of the upkeep of wood most are reserving it for interiors.  Decks still use teak which is long lasting, but depending on how much you have, you will spend more hours maintaining your teak than you will spend sailing. 

              On interior and some exterior wood, many people have quit varnish and started to use UV resistant polyurethane paints instead (but not on teak).


              See here for the care of teak. 
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teak_furniture#Caring_for_teak


              Regards,

              Andrew



              --- On Fri, 11/5/10, mtboat1 <mtboat1@...> wrote:

              From: mtboat1 <mtboat1@...>
              Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: rudders again
              To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 7:26 PM

               

              Toying with the concept of no glass. I think a wood rudder might be cool. Mine is not gone yet, but every fall I drill a test hole and about a cup of water comes out, then drips for a few weeks. Lots of cracks and I have done all the repair I am stand. And isn't more wood on a boat a good thing? :)


              --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
              >
              > Very good rudders can be maid by 3/4 marine or ext plywood laminated (glued) together for the proper thickness and then  contoured with a belt sander.. then epoxied and glassed over.  That really looks like what my 240 rudder is made of anyway.  It is a heavy thing too.  Get new Gudgeons and pintals and hold down while you are at it.
              >
              > Andrew
              >
              >
              >
              > --- On Thu, 11/4/10, mtboat1 <mtboat1@...> wrote:
              >
              > From: mtboat1 <mtboat1@...>
              > Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] rudders again
              > To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 9:39 PM
              >
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              >
              >
              >  
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              > I am going to need a rudder, for my 240. Mine is still together enough
              >
              > to last another season, but is crap. I would like to make one out of wood. I can trace mine and use my own hardware. The question is....what wood? Nothing too pricey. Or exotic, this is Montana.
              >


            • bob.sparks@rocketmail.com
              The cost of a wood only rudder is attractive. You would be heart broken if only lasted 10 years or so. If I was making one I would make it so I could retract
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 6, 2010
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                The cost of a wood only rudder is attractive. You would be heart broken if only lasted 10 years or so. If I was making one I would make it so I could retract the rudder out of the water when not sailing. Particularly with buccs you get a lot of freeboard to work with.

                I lash the tiller off to the boom sheet to dampen all the thrashing around the rudder does at mooring. What do you folks do?

                Bob

                --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "mtboat1" <mtboat1@...> wrote:
                >
                > Toying with the concept of no glass. I think a wood rudder might be cool. Mine is not gone yet, but every fall I drill a test hole and about a cup of water comes out, then drips for a few weeks. Lots of cracks and I have done all the repair I am stand. And isn't more wood on a boat a good thing? :)
                >
                >
                > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Very good rudders can be maid by 3/4 marine or ext plywood laminated (glued) together for the proper thickness and then  contoured with a belt sander.. then epoxied and glassed over.  That really looks like what my 240 rudder is made of anyway.  It is a heavy thing too.  Get new Gudgeons and pintals and hold down while you are at it.
                > >
                > > Andrew
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- On Thu, 11/4/10, mtboat1 <mtboat1@> wrote:
                > >
                > > From: mtboat1 <mtboat1@>
                > > Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] rudders again
                > > To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                > > Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 9:39 PM
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >  
                > >
                > >
                > >
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                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > I am going to need a rudder, for my 240. Mine is still together enough
                > >
                > > to last another season, but is crap. I would like to make one out of wood. I can trace mine and use my own hardware. The question is....what wood? Nothing too pricey. Or exotic, this is Montana.
                > >
                >
              • PhilC
                ... You MUST fiberglass over it. Or in a couple of years it will be rotted again. ... Because it does not bond well to polyester OR epoxy, and it is not
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 6, 2010
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                  --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "bob.sparks@..." <bob.sparks@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Two pieces of well dried, thick as you can get it pressure treated >plywood glued together works well. You can fibreglass it over.

                  You MUST fiberglass over it. Or in a couple of years it will be rotted again.


                  > I don't know why more people don't use bondo long hair on boats.

                  Because it does not bond well to polyester OR epoxy, and it is not waterproof for long term.
                • PhilC
                  If you go to the trouble of building a new rudder (a fun and rewarding project) by all means get a good foil template and shape it well. Don t use the old
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 6, 2010
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                    If you go to the trouble of building a new rudder (a fun and rewarding project) by all means get a good foil template and shape it well. Don't use the old rudder foil shape as a guide, the factory rudders were simply horrible. A NACA section is a good all around shape. Depends on the thickness and chord of your rudder which section will work best, but an 0012 to 0014 section makes a terrific rudder for a boat like the Bucc - it will be responsive, hard to stall, low drag. (you can google for more info)

                    For simplicity sake I'd use plywood, or laminate up lengths of solid straight grain mahogany. Don't try to use cedar or fir or any softer woods, they will break. Definitely must fiberglass over it to keep the moisture out and the wood from checking.

                    --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "mtboat1" <mtboat1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I am going to need a rudder, for my 240. Mine is still together enough
                    > to last another season, but is crap. I would like to make one out of wood. I can trace mine and use my own hardware. The question is....what wood? Nothing too pricey. Or exotic, this is Montana.
                    >
                  • PhilC
                    ... Don t do it. Seriously, it WILL NOT WORK. ... One layer of glass up to 10oz (or 2 layers totally 10oz or less) is perfectly transparent. BUT - UV (the
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 6, 2010
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                      --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "mtboat1" <mtboat1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Toying with the concept of no glass.

                      Don't do it. Seriously, it WILL NOT WORK.


                      >I think a wood rudder might be cool.

                      One layer of glass up to 10oz (or 2 layers totally 10oz or less) is perfectly transparent.

                      BUT - UV (the sunlight) eats resins, it will yellow and deteriorate become ugly in only a couple seasons. You could coat it will 8 -10 boats of Marine Varnish with UV inhibitors, but since it's submerged, that won't work. Even if it did, you'd be sanding it down and recoating every couple of years.

                      Paint it and be happy with something that works properly.
                    • PhilC
                      ... If it s not strong enough initially, and/or if it s no glassed over, it won t last anywhere near 10 years. As it flexes microcracks appear and let water
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 6, 2010
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                        --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "bob.sparks@..." <bob.sparks@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > The cost of a wood only rudder is attractive. You would be heart broken if only lasted 10 years or so.

                        If it's not strong enough initially, and/or if it's no glassed over, it won't last anywhere near 10 years. As it flexes microcracks appear and let water in, the wood starts checking... 3 years tops and it's facked.
                        Be sure it is strong enough, and glass over it.
                        There's usually Very good reason why certain things on boats are done the way they are.


                        >If I was making one I would make it so I could retract the rudder out >of the water when not sailing. Particularly with buccs you get a lot >of freeboard to work with.
                        >
                        > I lash the tiller off to the boom sheet to dampen all the thrashing around the rudder does at mooring. What do you folks do?

                        I agree with both statements. Retract it or lift it off and store it.
                        And if down, or retracted, always secure it.
                        If left down and unsecured, the thrashing will put a lifetime of wear on the pintles/gudgeons in only one season, unless you're in the calmest marina in th world.
                      • mtboat1
                        OK. I wasn t clear I guess. The plan was to varnish as a sealant. Never figured bare wood in water. I have a gallon of resin, and the effort/cost was not a
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 6, 2010
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                          OK. I wasn't clear I guess. The plan was to varnish as a sealant. Never figured bare wood in water. I have a gallon of resin, and the effort/cost was not a consideration. I just thought it might look cool to have a beautiful natural wood varnished appearance. That and I have done enough fiberglass sanding in my life.
                          Phil: Am I to understand that the varnish is not enough?
                          If not than I will probably have a shop try and redo this rudder, It is cracked through the glass on all edges , and after it dries out it could be re coated.

                          --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "PhilC" <PandD_Collins@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > If you go to the trouble of building a new rudder (a fun and rewarding project) by all means get a good foil template and shape it well. Don't use the old rudder foil shape as a guide, the factory rudders were simply horrible. A NACA section is a good all around shape. Depends on the thickness and chord of your rudder which section will work best, but an 0012 to 0014 section makes a terrific rudder for a boat like the Bucc - it will be responsive, hard to stall, low drag. (you can google for more info)
                          >
                          > For simplicity sake I'd use plywood, or laminate up lengths of solid straight grain mahogany. Don't try to use cedar or fir or any softer woods, they will break. Definitely must fiberglass over it to keep the moisture out and the wood from checking.
                          >
                          > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "mtboat1" <mtboat1@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I am going to need a rudder, for my 240. Mine is still together enough
                          > > to last another season, but is crap. I would like to make one out of wood. I can trace mine and use my own hardware. The question is....what wood? Nothing too pricey. Or exotic, this is Montana.
                          > >
                          >
                        • mtboat1
                          Regarding the rudder thrashing around at anchor...I have a device screwed on the tiller handle with two cords that lead aft and out. It has a little tension
                          Message 12 of 15 , Nov 6, 2010
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                            Regarding the rudder thrashing around at anchor...I have a device screwed on the tiller handle with two cords that lead aft and out. It has a little tension wheel that keeps the tiller locked where ever it is positioned.
                            --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "bob.sparks@..." <bob.sparks@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > The cost of a wood only rudder is attractive. You would be heart broken if only lasted 10 years or so. If I was making one I would make it so I could retract the rudder out of the water when not sailing. Particularly with buccs you get a lot of freeboard to work with.
                            >
                            > I lash the tiller off to the boom sheet to dampen all the thrashing around the rudder does at mooring. What do you folks do?
                            >
                            > Bob
                            >
                            > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "mtboat1" <mtboat1@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Toying with the concept of no glass. I think a wood rudder might be cool. Mine is not gone yet, but every fall I drill a test hole and about a cup of water comes out, then drips for a few weeks. Lots of cracks and I have done all the repair I am stand. And isn't more wood on a boat a good thing? :)
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Very good rudders can be maid by 3/4 marine or ext plywood laminated (glued) together for the proper thickness and then  contoured with a belt sander.. then epoxied and glassed over.  That really looks like what my 240 rudder is made of anyway.  It is a heavy thing too.  Get new Gudgeons and pintals and hold down while you are at it.
                            > > >
                            > > > Andrew
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- On Thu, 11/4/10, mtboat1 <mtboat1@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > From: mtboat1 <mtboat1@>
                            > > > Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] rudders again
                            > > > To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 9:39 PM
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >  
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > I am going to need a rudder, for my 240. Mine is still together enough
                            > > >
                            > > > to last another season, but is crap. I would like to make one out of wood. I can trace mine and use my own hardware. The question is....what wood? Nothing too pricey. Or exotic, this is Montana.
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • mtboat1
                            Is a bucc rudder glass over foam? Folks at Sailnet all seem to fill all suspect spots with epoxy and re gelcoat, then drain it every year anyway. The general
                            Message 13 of 15 , Nov 6, 2010
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                              Is a bucc rudder glass over foam? Folks at Sailnet all seem to fill all suspect spots with epoxy and re gelcoat, then drain it every year anyway.
                              The general opinion is it will continue to leak. I was hoping that varnish over wood was enough. If I had to rebuild it every 5 years, ok. I have filled holes and cracks in river drift boats, and sprayed a bottom with gelcoat. So I have the stuff and the ability to work with glass. I would probably get some one else to do it and kick in the gallon of resin I have.


                              --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "mtboat1" <mtboat1@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > OK. I wasn't clear I guess. The plan was to varnish as a sealant. Never figured bare wood in water. I have a gallon of resin, and the effort/cost was not a consideration. I just thought it might look cool to have a beautiful natural wood varnished appearance. That and I have done enough fiberglass sanding in my life.
                              > Phil: Am I to understand that the varnish is not enough?
                              > If not than I will probably have a shop try and redo this rudder, It is cracked through the glass on all edges , and after it dries out it could be re coated.
                              >
                              > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "PhilC" <PandD_Collins@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > If you go to the trouble of building a new rudder (a fun and rewarding project) by all means get a good foil template and shape it well. Don't use the old rudder foil shape as a guide, the factory rudders were simply horrible. A NACA section is a good all around shape. Depends on the thickness and chord of your rudder which section will work best, but an 0012 to 0014 section makes a terrific rudder for a boat like the Bucc - it will be responsive, hard to stall, low drag. (you can google for more info)
                              > >
                              > > For simplicity sake I'd use plywood, or laminate up lengths of solid straight grain mahogany. Don't try to use cedar or fir or any softer woods, they will break. Definitely must fiberglass over it to keep the moisture out and the wood from checking.
                              > >
                              > > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "mtboat1" <mtboat1@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I am going to need a rudder, for my 240. Mine is still together enough
                              > > > to last another season, but is crap. I would like to make one out of wood. I can trace mine and use my own hardware. The question is....what wood? Nothing too pricey. Or exotic, this is Montana.
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • PhilC
                              Varnish alone won t do it. It will not prevent the wood from checking and splitting, and it does not hold up to being submerged for long periods. It does
                              Message 14 of 15 , Nov 8, 2010
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                                Varnish alone won't do it. It will not prevent the wood from checking and splitting, and it does not hold up to being submerged for long periods. It does however, go over epoxy and add UV protection (great for tillers!) But there's still the problem with varnish not being intended for underwater use.

                                --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "mtboat1" <mtboat1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > .. The plan was to varnish as a sealant.....
                                > Phil: Am I to understand that the varnish is not enough?
                              • mtboat1
                                Thanks Phil, glass it is.
                                Message 15 of 15 , Nov 9, 2010
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                                  Thanks Phil, glass it is.
                                  --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "PhilC" <PandD_Collins@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Varnish alone won't do it. It will not prevent the wood from checking and splitting, and it does not hold up to being submerged for long periods. It does however, go over epoxy and add UV protection (great for tillers!) But there's still the problem with varnish not being intended for underwater use.
                                  >
                                  > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "mtboat1" <mtboat1@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > .. The plan was to varnish as a sealant.....
                                  > > Phil: Am I to understand that the varnish is not enough?
                                  >
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