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Re: Hello, everyone! From Orlando, Florida

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  • Eric Reams
    Hello Toby and welcome to the group. Being from Hudson, FL I can pretty well assure you that you re in no fear of Blue water in Orlando, lol. A lot of the
    Message 1 of 30 , Oct 1, 2010
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      Hello Toby and welcome to the group. Being from Hudson, FL
      I can pretty well assure you that you're in no fear of Blue
      water in Orlando, lol.

      A lot of the stuff you read on the 'net is ramblings posted
      by people who actually have never been on a bucc, let alone
      sailed one. It's the way of most rumors in that they start
      one way and develop a mind of their own. Most people that
      purchased Buccs, back-in-the-day, would've done so because
      of price, so that lends to the fact that a lot of them were
      1st timers. In any event, the first time we do anything,
      there can be tons of "bad" things happen, and that's probably
      where a lot of those rumors started.

      A sailboat is a sailboat is a sailboat in one particular
      arena; she's only as good as her captain. There's some pretty
      knowledgeable people in this group, of which, you can probably
      find one or two who have sailed their "buccs" in blue water.
      At the same time, and possibly in the same thread, you'll find
      guys/gals who say "don't". Again, it's all about the sailor.
      Now, if you're planning to put in at say, Coccoa, and sail the
      ICW down to Miami, well, that's not really blue water, is it?
      But then, as you know, you're only a days trip to the Bahamas.
      That leg of the journey should be predicated on experience alone.

      Good luck and don't forget we're all "Picture deprived" so post
      all you can. And again, welcome aboard!

      --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "carlos_gaudin" <cgaudin69@...> wrote:
      >
      > I just bought a very nice 1976 24' Buccaneer. It is in very good condition for being an almost 35 year old boat. It is roomy. However, I got bad vibes from a couple of postings on the net about it being "unsafe". I know nothing about sailing so I'm new to this thing. I would like for some of you Buccaneer veterans about the idiosyncrasies of this particuler boat and why it has been dubbed as unsafe. I'd like to think that me and the kid will be fine just sailing the Florida shoreline. Is this strictly a calm water vessel? or can I feel comfortable keeping it afloat if weather turns on me while I'm out. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, all.
      >
      > Toby
      >
    • Andres Espino
      I think you will find the stats are very close between the Buccaneer 240 and the Columbia Contender or Challenger 24 or the Coronado 24.  All were made from
      Message 2 of 30 , Oct 1, 2010
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        I think you will find the stats are very close between the Buccaneer 240 and the Columbia Contender or Challenger 24 or the Coronado 24.  All were made from Columbia molds.  This was one reason I bought my Buccaneer this month.  I already know Columbias very well.

        Andrew



        --- On Thu, 9/30/10, Bill Crunk <crunkinator@...> wrote:

        From: Bill Crunk <crunkinator@...>
        Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Hello, everyone! From Orlando, Florida
        To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, September 30, 2010, 5:26 PM

         

        Sail anywhere?  I have a bucc 240 also and totally LOVE the room per length of buccs.  As far as a blue water cruiser or even a coastal cruiser... I'll use my Columbia 40 and keep my 240 in the lake for day-sailing fun.
        If I had to rank risk assestment for blue water cruising in a bucc240, I would put it somewhere between being married to a red hed with anger management issues and getting a prostrate exam from the jolly green giant.

        On Sep 30, 2010 2:01 PM, "PhilC" <PandD_Collins@...> wrote:

         

        Never have I heard them classed as unsafe. (Many other unkind adjectives, but not that one.) Bear in mind that it has a lot of freeboard and windage, and doesn't point very high, so big winds and big seas might have their way with you. It helps to be skilled, in ANY boat, if you mess about where the weather can catch you out. The Buccs are very solidly built, so that just leaves the inevitable need for repairs and maintenance of an old boat. (For example I wouldn't venture offshore with 30 year old rigging...)
        But I see no reason whatsoever that the Bucc 240 in good condition won't take you safely anywhere common sense and decent seamanship would allow you to go.



        --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "carlos_gaudin" <cgaudin69@...> wrote:
        >
        I got bad ...


      • Andres Espino
        Hi Eric, I agree! When I bought a sharpie home built.. everyone told me what a lousy boat i bought  The thing is I learned to sail on a dory off the NH
        Message 3 of 30 , Oct 1, 2010
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          Hi Eric,

          I agree!

          When I bought a sharpie home built.. everyone told me what a lousy boat i bought 

          The thing is I learned to sail on a dory off the NH coast.  A Sharpie is mostly a decked over dory optimized for sail.  I still regret selling it.. I did it when I moved here to the AZ desert from Texas.  I sailed over 10,000 miles altogether in all kinds of weather.


          Andrew





          --- On Fri, 10/1/10, Eric Reams <ericreams65@...> wrote:

          From: Eric Reams <ericreams65@...>
          Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Hello, everyone! From Orlando, Florida
          To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, October 1, 2010, 9:09 AM

           

          Hello Toby and welcome to the group. Being from Hudson, FL
          I can pretty well assure you that you're in no fear of Blue
          water in Orlando, lol.

          A lot of the stuff you read on the 'net is ramblings posted
          by people who actually have never been on a bucc, let alone
          sailed one. It's the way of most rumors in that they start
          one way and develop a mind of their own. Most people that
          purchased Buccs, back-in-the-day, would've done so because
          of price, so that lends to the fact that a lot of them were
          1st timers. In any event, the first time we do anything,
          there can be tons of "bad" things happen, and that's probably
          where a lot of those rumors started.

          A sailboat is a sailboat is a sailboat in one particular
          arena; she's only as good as her captain. There's some pretty
          knowledgeable people in this group, of which, you can probably
          find one or two who have sailed their "buccs" in blue water.
          At the same time, and possibly in the same thread, you'll find
          guys/gals who say "don't". Again, it's all about the sailor.
          Now, if you're planning to put in at say, Coccoa, and sail the
          ICW down to Miami, well, that's not really blue water, is it?
          But then, as you know, you're only a days trip to the Bahamas.
          That leg of the journey should be predicated on experience alone.

          Good luck and don't forget we're all "Picture deprived" so post
          all you can. And again, welcome aboard!

          --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "carlos_gaudin" <cgaudin69@...> wrote:
          >
          > I just bought a very nice 1976 24' Buccaneer. It is in very good condition for being an almost 35 year old boat. It is roomy. However, I got bad vibes from a couple of postings on the net about it being "unsafe". I know nothing about sailing so I'm new to this thing. I would like for some of you Buccaneer veterans about the idiosyncrasies of this particuler boat and why it has been dubbed as unsafe. I'd like to think that me and the kid will be fine just sailing the Florida shoreline. Is this strictly a calm water vessel? or can I feel comfortable keeping it afloat if weather turns on me while I'm out. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, all.
          >
          > Toby
          >


        • mtboat1
          Buccs unsafe began here, when Bayliner was sued over a Buccaneer sinking, with casualties.I will include the link. To sum it up...three adults and four
          Message 4 of 30 , Oct 1, 2010
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            Buccs unsafe began here, when Bayliner was sued over a Buccaneer sinking, with casualties.I will include the link. To sum it up...three adults and four children on a Bucc 180. Right a 180, not a 210 or 240. Took it out in weather beyond their skill level, NO life jackets on kids, ...stoned on pot. The 180 is a swing keel, so it will take on water when overloaded. A copy of the court case can be found here:
            http://www.diysailor.com/diysailor/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=157:bayliner-buccaneer-18-court-case-1996&catid=32:buccs-by-make-and-model&Itemid=40

            Regardless of the courts decision Buccaneers still suffer that bad press.

            --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "carlos_gaudin" <cgaudin69@...> wrote:
            >
            > I just bought a very nice 1976 24' Buccaneer. It is in very good condition for being an almost 35 year old boat. It is roomy. However, I got bad vibes from a couple of postings on the net about it being "unsafe". I know nothing about sailing so I'm new to this thing. I would like for some of you Buccaneer veterans about the idiosyncrasies of this particuler boat and why it has been dubbed as unsafe. I'd like to think that me and the kid will be fine just sailing the Florida shoreline. Is this strictly a calm water vessel? or can I feel comfortable keeping it afloat if weather turns on me while I'm out. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, all.
            >
            > Toby
            >
          • Andres Espino
            Ahhhhhh  I often wondered how the bad reputation all started, since they are copies of Columbia hulls which are good and well regarded economy cruisers. 
            Message 5 of 30 , Oct 2, 2010
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              Ahhhhhh  I often wondered how the bad reputation all started, since they are copies of Columbia hulls which are good and well regarded economy cruisers. 

              Here is a pic of the 17.5 foot 180 with link to the specs.. one can see by looking that it would have been over-occupied as well with 7 aboard..
              http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4872

              Buccaneer 180 photo


              There are stories of Catalina 22 with swing keel which have sailed from Cali to Hawaii and throughout the Caribbean, but the CB trunk is closed at the top except for a small hole for the cable.  The pic on the specs page sort-of looks like this CB trunk has an open top.  It is in the cockpit to allow for drainage, but it is still a problem for an overloaded boat.

              Thanks for the informative post!

              Andrew



              --- On Fri, 10/1/10, mtboat1 <mtboat1@...> wrote:

              From: mtboat1 <mtboat1@...>
              Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Hello, everyone! From Orlando, Florida
              To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, October 1, 2010, 9:46 PM

               

              Buccs unsafe began here, when Bayliner was sued over a Buccaneer sinking, with casualties.I will include the link. To sum it up...three adults and four children on a Bucc 180. Right a 180, not a 210 or 240. Took it out in weather beyond their skill level, NO life jackets on kids, ...stoned on pot. The 180 is a swing keel, so it will take on water when overloaded. A copy of the court case can be found here:
              http://www.diysailor.com/diysailor/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=157:bayliner-buccaneer-18-court-case-1996&catid=32:buccs-by-make-and-model&Itemid=40

              Regardless of the courts decision Buccaneers still suffer that bad press.

              --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "carlos_gaudin" <cgaudin69@...> wrote:
              >
              > I just bought a very nice 1976 24' Buccaneer. It is in very good condition for being an almost 35 year old boat. It is roomy. However, I got bad vibes from a couple of postings on the net about it being "unsafe". I know nothing about sailing so I'm new to this thing. I would like for some of you Buccaneer veterans about the idiosyncrasies of this particuler boat and why it has been dubbed as unsafe. I'd like to think that me and the kid will be fine just sailing the Florida shoreline. Is this strictly a calm water vessel? or can I feel comfortable keeping it afloat if weather turns on me while I'm out. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, all.
              >
              > Toby
              >


            • Andres Espino
              I Found the old article with links re: that 180 story.. it was posted in this group Oct 2010 I am reposting as a reply to bring it up top. Andrew
              Message 6 of 30 , Sep 29, 2012
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                I Found the old article with links re: that 180 story.. it was posted in this group Oct 2010
                I am reposting as a reply to bring it up top.

                Andrew

                From: mtboat1 <mtboat1@...>
                To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, October 1, 2010 8:46 PM
                Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Hello, everyone! From Orlando, Florida

                 
                Buccs unsafe began here, when Bayliner was sued over a Buccaneer sinking, with casualties.I will include the link. To sum it up...three adults and four children on a Bucc 180. Right a 180, not a 210 or 240. Took it out in weather beyond their skill level, NO life jackets on kids, ...stoned on pot. The 180 is a swing keel, so it will take on water when overloaded. A copy of the court case can be found here:
                http://www.diysailor.com/diysailor/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=157:bayliner-buccaneer-18-court-case-1996&catid=32:buccs-by-make-and-model&Itemid=40

                Regardless of the courts decision Buccaneers still suffer that bad press.

                --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "carlos_gaudin" <cgaudin69@...> wrote:
                >
                > I just bought a very nice 1976 24' Buccaneer. It is in very good condition for being an almost 35 year old boat. It is roomy. However, I got bad vibes from a couple of postings on the net about it being "unsafe". I know nothing about sailing so I'm new to this thing. I would like for some of you Buccaneer veterans about the idiosyncrasies of this particuler boat and why it has been dubbed as unsafe. I'd like to think that me and the kid will be fine just sailing the Florida shoreline. Is this strictly a calm water vessel? or can I feel comfortable keeping it afloat if weather turns on me while I'm out. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, all.
                >
                > Toby
                >



              • Jbc
                I ve owned my 240 since new...sailed it in Gulf nearshore and have inadvertantly, yet successfully, worked her reefed thru TStorms with winds gusting over 60
                Message 7 of 30 , Oct 1, 2012
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                  I've owned my 240 since new...sailed it in Gulf nearshore and have inadvertantly, yet successfully, worked her reefed thru TStorms with winds gusting over 60 mph with very rough waters without concern regarding her (or my) surviveability. Actually quite stable when the going gets rough.
                   
                  That said, she was not intended for deepwater cruising and I would be hesitant to purposefully pusue such use on a recurring basis. Also, things do get old and require appropriate maintenance to to retain their design capabilities.
                   
                  A great boat IMHO. She can scuttle along with the best of 'em.
                   
                   

                  From: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
                  To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2012 9:18 PM
                  Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Found the old article re: that 180 story it was in this group Oct 2010
                   
                  I Found the old article with links re: that 180 story.. it was posted in this group Oct 2010
                  I am reposting as a reply to bring it up top.

                  Andrew
                  From: mtboat1 <mtboat1@...>
                  To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, October 1, 2010 8:46 PM
                  Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Hello, everyone! From Orlando, Florida
                   
                  Buccs unsafe began here, when Bayliner was sued over a Buccaneer sinking, with casualties.I will include the link. To sum it up...three adults and four children on a Bucc 180. Right a 180, not a 210 or 240. Took it out in weather beyond their skill level, NO life jackets on kids, ...stoned on pot. The 180 is a swing keel, so it will take on water when overloaded. A copy of the court case can be found here: http://www.diysailor.com/diysailor/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=157:bayliner-buccaneer-18-court-case-1996&catid=32:buccs-by-make-and-model&Itemid=40 Regardless of the courts decision Buccaneers still suffer that bad press. --- In mailto:BaylinerBuccaneerGroup%40yahoogroups.com, "carlos_gaudin" <cgaudin69@...> wrote: > > I just bought a very nice 1976 24' Buccaneer. It is in very good condition for being an almost 35 year old boat. It is roomy. However, I got bad vibes from a couple of postings on the net about it being "unsafe". I know nothing about sailing so I'm new to this thing. I would like for some of you Buccaneer veterans about the idiosyncrasies of this particuler boat and why it has been dubbed as unsafe. I'd like to think that me and the kid will be fine just sailing the Florida shoreline. Is this strictly a calm water vessel? or can I feel comfortable keeping it afloat if weather turns on me while I'm out. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, all. > > Toby >
                • Andres Espino
                  I think three things affect the 240 in open seas.  The high freeboard catches wind and affects handling.  The large cockpit and small drain can fill with
                  Message 8 of 30 , Oct 1, 2012
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                    I think three things affect the 240 in open seas.  The high freeboard catches wind and affects handling.  The large cockpit and small drain can fill with 1000+ lbs of water in seconds (this s why Roger Taylor reduced his cockpit size) and the shoal keel is not as effective as a larger one.

                    My cockpit is reduced by 1/3 and the remainder can drain completely in about 30 seconds or less.  It drains past a mudflap baffle down into the motor well and the drain area is 1 foot tall by 2 feet wide.  If I had a tradition unmodified 240 i would make cockpit drains from shower drains and drain it with 3 inch PVC to the stern.

                    I plan to sail more extensively and so I secured 2 30 gallon water tabks to the cabin floor but at expense of standing headroom throughout.  That and 3 batteries add about 600lbs of more ballast to the floor of the boat.

                    There was not much i could do about the freeboard but I carry a drogue which with a storm jib, will help me to stay pointed in rough weather

                    Andrew


                    From: Jbc <c670cj@...>
                    To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 8:39 AM
                    Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Found the old article re: that 180 story it was in this group Oct 2010

                     
                    I've owned my 240 since new...sailed it in Gulf nearshore and have inadvertantly, yet successfully, worked her reefed thru TStorms with winds gusting over 60 mph with very rough waters without concern regarding her (or my) surviveability. Actually quite stable when the going gets rough.
                     
                    That said, she was not intended for deepwater cruising and I would be hesitant to purposefully pusue such use on a recurring basis. Also, things do get old and require appropriate maintenance to to retain their design capabilities.
                     
                    A great boat IMHO. She can scuttle along with the best of 'em.
                     
                     

                    From: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
                    To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2012 9:18 PM
                    Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Found the old article re: that 180 story it was in this group Oct 2010
                     
                    I Found the old article with links re: that 180 story.. it was posted in this group Oct 2010
                    I am reposting as a reply to bring it up top.

                    Andrew
                    From: mtboat1 <mtboat1@...>
                    To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, October 1, 2010 8:46 PM
                    Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Hello, everyone! From Orlando, Florida
                     
                    Buccs unsafe began here, when Bayliner was sued over a Buccaneer sinking, with casualties.I will include the link. To sum it up...three adults and four children on a Bucc 180. Right a 180, not a 210 or 240. Took it out in weather beyond their skill level, NO life jackets on kids, ...stoned on pot. The 180 is a swing keel, so it will take on water when overloaded. A copy of the court case can be found here: http://www.diysailor.com/diysailor/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=157:bayliner-buccaneer-18-court-case-1996&catid=32:buccs-by-make-and-model&Itemid=40 Regardless of the courts decision Buccaneers still suffer that bad press. --- In mailto:BaylinerBuccaneerGroup%40yahoogroups.com, "carlos_gaudin" <cgaudin69@...> wrote: > > I just bought a very nice 1976 24' Buccaneer. It is in very good condition for being an almost 35 year old boat. It is roomy. However, I got bad vibes from a couple of postings on the net about it being "unsafe". I know nothing about sailing so I'm new to this thing. I would like for some of you Buccaneer veterans about the idiosyncrasies of this particuler boat and why it has been dubbed as unsafe. I'd like to think that me and the kid will be fine just sailing the Florida shoreline. Is this strictly a calm water vessel? or can I feel comfortable keeping it afloat if weather turns on me while I'm out. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, all. > > Toby >


                  • Andres Espino
                    Okay I am a crazy man  LOL Just for fun,  I am toying with adding a transom mounted mizzen to my 240 and a small sail like most Bolger square boats have and
                    Message 9 of 30 , Oct 1, 2012
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                      Okay I am a crazy man  LOL

                      Just for fun,  I am toying with adding a transom mounted mizzen to my 240 and a small sail like most Bolger square boats have and which Michalak recommends on many of his designs.  At least one of his designs (18ft Caroline) has a socked made on the outside of the transom so a mizzen can be dropped into it.     http://duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caroline/index.htm


                      CAROLINE, SAILBOAT, 18' X 6'

                      I emailed Jim Michalak and he said it could probably be adapted to many factory boats easily, and would likely help offset high freeboard and help pointing.

                      This would not affect the structure of the 240 and the mast could be an aluminum tube 12-15 feet long.  the sail could be, as in my case, a spare jib.  The Bolger Micro can self steer with that mizzen.. some say within plus or minus 3 degrees.. except when close hauled sailing to windward.

                      Watch the micro self steering here 
                      1. Bolger Micro Self-Steering

                        Sailing Micro in 12 to 15 knots on Lake Wivenhoe
                        2 years ago 8,745 views

                      Andrew

                    • paulmorf
                      Go for it, Andrew....and keep us posted about how things work out. I ve got several Q s about adapting a BUC so as to carry a mizzen and small sail. It you
                      Message 10 of 30 , Oct 2, 2012
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                        Go for it, Andrew....and keep us posted about how things work out. I've got several Q's about adapting a BUC so as to carry a mizzen and small sail. It you find it to be more or less workable, I'm game too!
                        Paul....skipper of the Buc 270 "Fresh Gail" out of Racine WI.

                        --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Okay I am a crazy man  LOL
                        >
                        > Just for fun,  I am toying with adding a transom mounted mizzen to my 240 and a small sail like most Bolger square boats have and which Michalak recommends on many of his designs.  At least one of his designs (18ft Caroline) has a socked made on the outside of the transom so a mizzen can be dropped into it.     http://duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caroline/index.htm
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > CAROLINE, SAILBOAT, 18' X 6'
                        >
                        > I emailed Jim Michalak and he said it could probably be adapted to many factory boats easily, and would likely help offset high freeboard and help pointing.
                        >
                        > This would not affect the structure of the 240 and the mast could be an aluminum tube 12-15 feet long.  the sail could be, as in my case, a spare jib.  The Bolger Micro can self steer with that mizzen.. some say within plus or minus 3 degrees.. except when close hauled sailing to windward.
                        >
                        > Watch the micro self steering here 
                        > 1. 1:28
                        > Bolger Micro Self-Steering
                        > Sailing Micro in 12 to 15 knots on Lake Wivenhoe
                        > 2 years ago | 8,745 views
                        > by jetta1342
                        >
                        > Andrew
                        >
                      • Andres Espino
                        According to Jim Michalak, the easiest is to make an outside bracket to support the mizzen like on his Caroline.  He said I can get a Caroline mizzen sail
                        Message 11 of 30 , Oct 2, 2012
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                          According to Jim Michalak, the easiest is to make an outside bracket to support the mizzen like on his Caroline.  He said I can get a Caroline mizzen sail ready made on Duckworks   http://duckworksbbs.com/sails/jim/sail.htm  or i thought I could use a lashed on spare jib sail with the sprit boom.

                          The mizzen offers weather vaning and pointing assistance in most points of wind from off the bow to the stern, but not too well running before the wind because it will want to blow the mizzen sail forward. (thats how I imagine it)

                          I am thinking of it in place of using a drogue to help keep my beamy boat pointed.

                          I am curious what your questions might be...  I have been researching this since I had my sharpie since I am a Bolger fan.

                          Andrew


                          From: paulmorf <pmorf@...>
                          To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 9:09 AM
                          Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL

                           
                          Go for it, Andrew....and keep us posted about how things work out. I've got several Q's about adapting a BUC so as to carry a mizzen and small sail. It you find it to be more or less workable, I'm game too!
                          Paul....skipper of the Buc 270 "Fresh Gail" out of Racine WI.

                          --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Okay I am a crazy man  LOL
                          >
                          > Just for fun,  I am toying with adding a transom mounted mizzen to my 240 and a small sail like most Bolger square boats have and which Michalak recommends on many of his designs.  At least one of his designs (18ft Caroline) has a socked made on the outside of the transom so a mizzen can be dropped into it.     http://duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caroline/index.htm
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > CAROLINE, SAILBOAT, 18' X 6'
                          >
                          > I emailed Jim Michalak and he said it could probably be adapted to many factory boats easily, and would likely help offset high freeboard and help pointing.
                          >
                          > This would not affect the structure of the 240 and the mast could be an aluminum tube 12-15 feet long.  the sail could be, as in my case, a spare jib.  The Bolger Micro can self steer with that mizzen.. some say within plus or minus 3 degrees.. except when close hauled sailing to windward.
                          >
                          > Watch the micro self steering here 
                          > 1. 1:28
                          > Bolger Micro Self-Steering
                          > Sailing Micro in 12 to 15 knots on Lake Wivenhoe
                          > 2 years ago | 8,745 views
                          > by jetta1342
                          >
                          > Andrew
                          >



                        • Andres Espino
                          Just a note from my personal experience that when you refurbish a Buccaneer 240 you may find that plaque about the weights handy that I put into files.  Since
                          Message 12 of 30 , Oct 2, 2012
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                            Just a note from my personal experience that when you refurbish a Buccaneer 240 you may find that plaque about the weights handy that I put into files.  Since mine was missing, I was going by the figures for a Columbia and they are not the same at all.

                            Maximum weight capacity for the 240 is 1,350 pounds of persons, motor and gear combined.  I am fine with the added water tanks because I will be single handing or sailing with one other person most of the time.  The poly tanks are not heavy when empty, but I did have to remove a few other things I had planned to add like the big horizontal 20gal propane tank.

                            For best stability the Buccaneer should sail best when on the blue painted water line. and the load inside balanced.. again use the waterline to see your balance if you have it as mine does.

                            Andrew
                          • paulmorf
                            2 Q s, Andrew....#1...do you suppose that it is necessary to cut back on main or jib areas in order to balance out the total SQFT. area of the sails on a 270
                            Message 13 of 30 , Oct 4, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              2 Q's, Andrew....#1...do you suppose that it is necessary to cut back on main or jib areas in order to balance out the total SQFT. area of the sails on a 270 if you/we added the mizzen sail?
                              #2...any recommendations on "the bracket" used to carry the mizzen mast?. My guess is that it would need to stand about 2ft. or so aft the stern/transom in order to clear the rudder head

                              --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > According to Jim Michalak, the easiest is to make an outside bracket to support the mizzen like on his Caroline.  He said I can get a Caroline mizzen sail ready made on Duckworks   http://duckworksbbs.com/sails/jim/sail.htm%c3%82%c2%a0 or i thought I could use a lashed on spare jib sail with the sprit boom.
                              >
                              > The mizzen offers weather vaning and pointing assistance in most points of wind from off the bow to the stern, but not too well running before the wind because it will want to blow the mizzen sail forward. (thats how I imagine it)
                              >
                              > I am thinking of it in place of using a drogue to help keep my beamy boat pointed.
                              >
                              > I am curious what your questions might be...  I have been researching this since I had my sharpie since I am a Bolger fan.
                              >
                              >
                              > Andrew
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: paulmorf <pmorf@...>
                              > To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 9:09 AM
                              > Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL
                              >
                              >
                              >  
                              > Go for it, Andrew....and keep us posted about how things work out. I've got several Q's about adapting a BUC so as to carry a mizzen and small sail. It you find it to be more or less workable, I'm game too!
                              > Paul....skipper of the Buc 270 "Fresh Gail" out of Racine WI.
                              >
                              > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Okay I am a crazy man  LOL
                              > >
                              > > Just for fun,  I am toying with adding a transom mounted mizzen to my 240 and a small sail like most Bolger square boats have and which Michalak recommends on many of his designs.  At least one of his designs (18ft Caroline) has a socked made on the outside of the transom so a mizzen can be dropped into it.     http://duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caroline/index.htm
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > CAROLINE, SAILBOAT, 18' X 6'
                              > >
                              > > I emailed Jim Michalak and he said it could probably be adapted to many factory boats easily, and would likely help offset high freeboard and help pointing.
                              > >
                              > > This would not affect the structure of the 240 and the mast could be an aluminum tube 12-15 feet long.  the sail could be, as in my case, a spare jib.  The Bolger Micro can self steer with that mizzen.. some say within plus or minus 3 degrees.. except when close hauled sailing to windward.
                              > >
                              > > Watch the micro self steering here 
                              > > 1. 1:28
                              > > Bolger Micro Self-Steering
                              > > Sailing Micro in 12 to 15 knots on Lake Wivenhoe
                              > > 2 years ago | 8,745 views
                              > > by jetta1342
                              > >
                              > > Andrew
                              > >
                              >
                            • Andres Espino
                              Okay.. this is not a conventional Yawl rig.  It is Bolgers idea or I think he was the first.  The mizzen is mounted offset in the starboard quarter of the
                              Message 14 of 30 , Oct 4, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Okay.. this is not a conventional Yawl rig.  It is Bolgers idea or I think he was the first.  The mizzen is mounted offset in the starboard quarter of the stern or that side of the transom  not in the center.  Michalak studied a lot of Bolger designs and he is the only living designer Iknow if who is continuing the legacy of Bolger type square boats.  A picture is worth a thousand words so I will insert a few pics here.

                                Michalak's Cariline is the one that has the outer stern bracket.  Jim said there are several ways to do this so I plan to bend some 1/4 aluminum plate into loops that a square 4x4 will drop into and rest aon a piece bent into an angle on the bottom.

                                here is the link and pic of Caroline  





                                I think it is worth buying the VIOLA plans for $27.50 and have all the mizzen construction details.  Viola is a larger 22 and 26 foot model similar to a Catalina 22 with a mizzen.  they are the same except the caroline bolts to the outside of the transom.

                                Viola22 - cabin sailboat - 22' x 7'

                                Viola26 - cabin sailboat - 26' x 7'


                                Here is a video of Bolgers Martha Jane that clearly shows the owner unfurling the sails and setting up the mizzen... notice the offset.

                                Bolger Martha Jane sail test run
                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TiJC_rGcho

                                Martha Jane is the big sister to Bolgers Long Micro and is close to the size of my 240  Also there is the AS19.  Most if not all Bolger boats have the mizzen offset and Michalak does the same thing.  It  Looks weird but turns out to be efficient and out of the way of the rudder and boarding ladder and outboard if someone has one.

                                In this video of sailing a Bolger Micro.. notice the man is seated by the offset. mizzen on the stern.  This shows the mizzen and tiller and so  on quite clearly.

                                The mizzen typically tapers to 2 inches at the peak.  they are usually solid so it makes sense to start with a good straight 4x4 which is planed down to 3.5 at the lumberyard.  Usually one saws it on a taper to a 2 inch tip all 4 sides and then saws off the ridges to form an octogon.. some stop there and others round it smooth with a belt sander or power plane.  It is not an exact thing but best to start the taper above the mounting section about 2-3 feet.  I will try to have mine 15 feet above the transom tapering from 3.5in to 2 inches.  The sail is either lashed on with a loop ed line thru grommets or the sail is sewed with a sleeve that slides down the mast.  i will do the first and use spare jibs I already have so my experiment will be very cheap... maybe 50 bucks.

                                The mizzen boom is usually secured on top of the side deck at the stern.  So the mast bracket is simple bolt ons like an OB bracket but on starboard and the mizzen boom may be secured with "U" clamps.

                                I would not change the sails at all because this is just a weathervane sort of mizzen sail to assist in pointing and tracking not driving the boat.  I plan to just add it.  I could remove the mizzen from the socket and the 240 would appear relatively unchanged.

                                Andrew


                                From: paulmorf <pmorf@...>
                                To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 8:24 AM
                                Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL

                                 
                                2 Q's, Andrew....#1...do you suppose that it is necessary to cut back on main or jib areas in order to balance out the total SQFT. area of the sails on a 270 if you/we added the mizzen sail?
                                #2...any recommendations on "the bracket" used to carry the mizzen mast?. My guess is that it would need to stand about 2ft. or so aft the stern/transom in order to clear the rudder head

                                --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > According to Jim Michalak, the easiest is to make an outside bracket to support the mizzen like on his Caroline.  He said I can get a Caroline mizzen sail ready made on Duckworks   http://duckworksbbs.com/sails/jim/sail.htm  or i thought I could use a lashed on spare jib sail with the sprit boom.
                                >
                                > The mizzen offers weather vaning and pointing assistance in most points of wind from off the bow to the stern, but not too well running before the wind because it will want to blow the mizzen sail forward. (thats how I imagine it)
                                >
                                > I am thinking of it in place of using a drogue to help keep my beamy boat pointed.
                                >
                                > I am curious what your questions might be...  I have been researching this since I had my sharpie since I am a Bolger fan.
                                >
                                >
                                > Andrew
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: paulmorf <pmorf@...>
                                > To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 9:09 AM
                                > Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL
                                >
                                >
                                >  
                                > Go for it, Andrew....and keep us posted about how things work out. I've got several Q's about adapting a BUC so as to carry a mizzen and small sail. It you find it to be more or less workable, I'm game too!
                                > Paul....skipper of the Buc 270 "Fresh Gail" out of Racine WI.
                                >
                                > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Okay I am a crazy man  LOL
                                > >
                                > > Just for fun,  I am toying with adding a transom mounted mizzen to my 240 and a small sail like most Bolger square boats have and which Michalak recommends on many of his designs.  At least one of his designs (18ft Caroline) has a socked made on the outside of the transom so a mizzen can be dropped into it.     http://duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caroline/index.htm
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > CAROLINE, SAILBOAT, 18' X 6'
                                > >
                                > > I emailed Jim Michalak and he said it could probably be adapted to many factory boats easily, and would likely help offset high freeboard and help pointing.
                                > >
                                > > This would not affect the structure of the 240 and the mast could be an aluminum tube 12-15 feet long.  the sail could be, as in my case, a spare jib.  The Bolger Micro can self steer with that mizzen.. some say within plus or minus 3 degrees.. except when close hauled sailing to windward.
                                > >
                                > > Watch the micro self steering here 
                                > > 1. 1:28
                                > > Bolger Micro Self-Steering
                                > > Sailing Micro in 12 to 15 knots on Lake Wivenhoe
                                > > 2 years ago | 8,745 views
                                > > by jetta1342
                                > >
                                > > Andrew
                                > >
                                >



                              • Jbc
                                As the mad Dr. Frankenstein screamed as the lightning struck all around the monster which had been cobbled together by discarded human parts.... ITS ALIVE!
                                Message 15 of 30 , Oct 4, 2012
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                                  As the mad Dr. Frankenstein screamed as the lightning struck all around the monster which had been cobbled together by discarded human parts...."ITS ALIVE!"

                                  One has to be careful not to overly pervert what I believe is the inherent natural beauty, symmetry and sea-kindly performance of the Buccaneer...it may well get to a point where you'll have to start your own group, since your boat will no longer be recognizable as the Bayliner product it started out as....which is maybe what your after.

                                  In any event...Good luck with that!


                                  From: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
                                  To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 2:56 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL

                                   
                                  Okay.. this is not a conventional Yawl rig.  It is Bolgers idea or I think he was the first.  The mizzen is mounted offset in the starboard quarter of the stern or that side of the transom  not in the center.  Michalak studied a lot of Bolger designs and he is the only living designer Iknow if who is continuing the legacy of Bolger type square boats.  A picture is worth a thousand words so I will insert a few pics here.

                                  Michalak's Cariline is the one that has the outer stern bracket.  Jim said there are several ways to do this so I plan to bend some 1/4 aluminum plate into loops that a square 4x4 will drop into and rest aon a piece bent into an angle on the bottom.

                                  here is the link and pic of Caroline  





                                  I think it is worth buying the VIOLA plans for $27.50 and have all the mizzen construction details.  Viola is a larger 22 and 26 foot model similar to a Catalina 22 with a mizzen.  they are the same except the caroline bolts to the outside of the transom.

                                  Viola22 - cabin sailboat - 22' x 7'

                                  Viola26 - cabin sailboat - 26' x 7'


                                  Here is a video of Bolgers Martha Jane that clearly shows the owner unfurling the sails and setting up the mizzen... notice the offset.

                                  Bolger Martha Jane sail test run
                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TiJC_rGcho

                                  Martha Jane is the big sister to Bolgers Long Micro and is close to the size of my 240  Also there is the AS19.  Most if not all Bolger boats have the mizzen offset and Michalak does the same thing.  It  Looks weird but turns out to be efficient and out of the way of the rudder and boarding ladder and outboard if someone has one.

                                  In this video of sailing a Bolger Micro.. notice the man is seated by the offset. mizzen on the stern.  This shows the mizzen and tiller and so  on quite clearly.

                                  The mizzen typically tapers to 2 inches at the peak.  they are usually solid so it makes sense to start with a good straight 4x4 which is planed down to 3.5 at the lumberyard.  Usually one saws it on a taper to a 2 inch tip all 4 sides and then saws off the ridges to form an octogon.. some stop there and others round it smooth with a belt sander or power plane.  It is not an exact thing but best to start the taper above the mounting section about 2-3 feet.  I will try to have mine 15 feet above the transom tapering from 3.5in to 2 inches.  The sail is either lashed on with a loop ed line thru grommets or the sail is sewed with a sleeve that slides down the mast.  i will do the first and use spare jibs I already have so my experiment will be very cheap... maybe 50 bucks.

                                  The mizzen boom is usually secured on top of the side deck at the stern.  So the mast bracket is simple bolt ons like an OB bracket but on starboard and the mizzen boom may be secured with "U" clamps.

                                  I would not change the sails at all because this is just a weathervane sort of mizzen sail to assist in pointing and tracking not driving the boat.  I plan to just add it.  I could remove the mizzen from the socket and the 240 would appear relatively unchanged.

                                  Andrew


                                  From: paulmorf <pmorf@...>
                                  To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 8:24 AM
                                  Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL

                                   
                                  2 Q's, Andrew....#1...do you suppose that it is necessary to cut back on main or jib areas in order to balance out the total SQFT. area of the sails on a 270 if you/we added the mizzen sail?
                                  #2...any recommendations on "the bracket" used to carry the mizzen mast?. My guess is that it would need to stand about 2ft. or so aft the stern/transom in order to clear the rudder head

                                  --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > According to Jim Michalak, the easiest is to make an outside bracket to support the mizzen like on his Caroline.  He said I can get a Caroline mizzen sail ready made on Duckworks   http://duckworksbbs.com/sails/jim/sail.htm  or i thought I could use a lashed on spare jib sail with the sprit boom.
                                  >
                                  > The mizzen offers weather vaning and pointing assistance in most points of wind from off the bow to the stern, but not too well running before the wind because it will want to blow the mizzen sail forward. (thats how I imagine it)
                                  >
                                  > I am thinking of it in place of using a drogue to help keep my beamy boat pointed.
                                  >
                                  > I am curious what your questions might be...  I have been researching this since I had my sharpie since I am a Bolger fan.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Andrew
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: paulmorf <pmorf@...>
                                  > To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 9:09 AM
                                  > Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >  
                                  > Go for it, Andrew....and keep us posted about how things work out. I've got several Q's about adapting a BUC so as to carry a mizzen and small sail. It you find it to be more or less workable, I'm game too!
                                  > Paul....skipper of the Buc 270 "Fresh Gail" out of Racine WI.
                                  >
                                  > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Okay I am a crazy man  LOL
                                  > >
                                  > > Just for fun,  I am toying with adding a transom mounted mizzen to my 240 and a small sail like most Bolger square boats have and which Michalak recommends on many of his designs.  At least one of his designs (18ft Caroline) has a socked made on the outside of the transom so a mizzen can be dropped into it.     http://duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caroline/index.htm
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > CAROLINE, SAILBOAT, 18' X 6'
                                  > >
                                  > > I emailed Jim Michalak and he said it could probably be adapted to many factory boats easily, and would likely help offset high freeboard and help pointing.
                                  > >
                                  > > This would not affect the structure of the 240 and the mast could be an aluminum tube 12-15 feet long.  the sail could be, as in my case, a spare jib.  The Bolger Micro can self steer with that mizzen.. some say within plus or minus 3 degrees.. except when close hauled sailing to windward.
                                  > >
                                  > > Watch the micro self steering here 
                                  > > 1. 1:28
                                  > > Bolger Micro Self-Steering
                                  > > Sailing Micro in 12 to 15 knots on Lake Wivenhoe
                                  > > 2 years ago | 8,745 views
                                  > > by jetta1342
                                  > >
                                  > > Andrew
                                  > >
                                  >





                                • Andres Espino
                                  LOL well my boat continues to look like a Bucc 240.  i saw this as an optional accessory. When reading and watching videos about the self steering ability of
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Oct 4, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    LOL well my boat continues to look like a Bucc 240.  i saw this as an optional accessory.

                                    When reading and watching videos about the self steering ability of Bolger type boats with the mizzen sail.. I began to see it as a possible cheap alternative to a windvane or elec autopilot, and better than a bungeed tiller for self steering. 

                                    The fact that such a small 12-15ft mizzen mast and sail can be plugged into a simple bracket on the outside of the transom adds to the attractiveness of such an idea.  All other rigging and sails would remain unaltered.

                                    Agreed it would give the 240 or 270 a bit if a Bolger look when the mizzen was in use but requires no cutting or serious changes to the boat itself.

                                    Users of the Bolger Micro report self steering within plus or minus 3 degrees which is acceptable with a GPS to consult frequently.

                                    i plan to try to take my 240 on extended voyages and so I did add 2 more internal water tanks, 2 batteries and solar panel which hardly detract from the look of a Buccaneer.


                                    From: Jbc <c670cj@...>
                                    To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 1:29 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL

                                     
                                    As the mad Dr. Frankenstein screamed as the lightning struck all around the monster which had been cobbled together by discarded human parts...."ITS ALIVE!"

                                    One has to be careful not to overly pervert what I believe is the inherent natural beauty, symmetry and sea-kindly performance of the Buccaneer...it may well get to a point where you'll have to start your own group, since your boat will no longer be recognizable as the Bayliner product it started out as....which is maybe what your after.

                                    In any event...Good luck with that!


                                    From: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
                                    To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 2:56 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL

                                     
                                    Okay.. this is not a conventional Yawl rig.  It is Bolgers idea or I think he was the first.  The mizzen is mounted offset in the starboard quarter of the stern or that side of the transom  not in the center.  Michalak studied a lot of Bolger designs and he is the only living designer Iknow if who is continuing the legacy of Bolger type square boats.  A picture is worth a thousand words so I will insert a few pics here.

                                    Michalak's Cariline is the one that has the outer stern bracket.  Jim said there are several ways to do this so I plan to bend some 1/4 aluminum plate into loops that a square 4x4 will drop into and rest aon a piece bent into an angle on the bottom.

                                    here is the link and pic of Caroline  





                                    I think it is worth buying the VIOLA plans for $27.50 and have all the mizzen construction details.  Viola is a larger 22 and 26 foot model similar to a Catalina 22 with a mizzen.  they are the same except the caroline bolts to the outside of the transom.

                                    Viola22 - cabin sailboat - 22' x 7'

                                    Viola26 - cabin sailboat - 26' x 7'


                                    Here is a video of Bolgers Martha Jane that clearly shows the owner unfurling the sails and setting up the mizzen... notice the offset.

                                    Bolger Martha Jane sail test run
                                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TiJC_rGcho

                                    Martha Jane is the big sister to Bolgers Long Micro and is close to the size of my 240  Also there is the AS19.  Most if not all Bolger boats have the mizzen offset and Michalak does the same thing.  It  Looks weird but turns out to be efficient and out of the way of the rudder and boarding ladder and outboard if someone has one.

                                    In this video of sailing a Bolger Micro.. notice the man is seated by the offset. mizzen on the stern.  This shows the mizzen and tiller and so  on quite clearly.

                                    The mizzen typically tapers to 2 inches at the peak.  they are usually solid so it makes sense to start with a good straight 4x4 which is planed down to 3.5 at the lumberyard.  Usually one saws it on a taper to a 2 inch tip all 4 sides and then saws off the ridges to form an octogon.. some stop there and others round it smooth with a belt sander or power plane.  It is not an exact thing but best to start the taper above the mounting section about 2-3 feet.  I will try to have mine 15 feet above the transom tapering from 3.5in to 2 inches.  The sail is either lashed on with a loop ed line thru grommets or the sail is sewed with a sleeve that slides down the mast.  i will do the first and use spare jibs I already have so my experiment will be very cheap... maybe 50 bucks.

                                    The mizzen boom is usually secured on top of the side deck at the stern.  So the mast bracket is simple bolt ons like an OB bracket but on starboard and the mizzen boom may be secured with "U" clamps.

                                    I would not change the sails at all because this is just a weathervane sort of mizzen sail to assist in pointing and tracking not driving the boat.  I plan to just add it.  I could remove the mizzen from the socket and the 240 would appear relatively unchanged.

                                    Andrew


                                    From: paulmorf <pmorf@...>
                                    To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 8:24 AM
                                    Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL

                                     
                                    2 Q's, Andrew....#1...do you suppose that it is necessary to cut back on main or jib areas in order to balance out the total SQFT. area of the sails on a 270 if you/we added the mizzen sail?
                                    #2...any recommendations on "the bracket" used to carry the mizzen mast?. My guess is that it would need to stand about 2ft. or so aft the stern/transom in order to clear the rudder head

                                    --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > According to Jim Michalak, the easiest is to make an outside bracket to support the mizzen like on his Caroline.  He said I can get a Caroline mizzen sail ready made on Duckworks   http://duckworksbbs.com/sails/jim/sail.htm  or i thought I could use a lashed on spare jib sail with the sprit boom.
                                    >
                                    > The mizzen offers weather vaning and pointing assistance in most points of wind from off the bow to the stern, but not too well running before the wind because it will want to blow the mizzen sail forward. (thats how I imagine it)
                                    >
                                    > I am thinking of it in place of using a drogue to help keep my beamy boat pointed.
                                    >
                                    > I am curious what your questions might be...  I have been researching this since I had my sharpie since I am a Bolger fan.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Andrew
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > From: paulmorf <pmorf@...>
                                    > To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 9:09 AM
                                    > Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >  
                                    > Go for it, Andrew....and keep us posted about how things work out. I've got several Q's about adapting a BUC so as to carry a mizzen and small sail. It you find it to be more or less workable, I'm game too!
                                    > Paul....skipper of the Buc 270 "Fresh Gail" out of Racine WI.
                                    >
                                    > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Okay I am a crazy man  LOL
                                    > >
                                    > > Just for fun,  I am toying with adding a transom mounted mizzen to my 240 and a small sail like most Bolger square boats have and which Michalak recommends on many of his designs.  At least one of his designs (18ft Caroline) has a socked made on the outside of the transom so a mizzen can be dropped into it.     http://duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caroline/index.htm
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > CAROLINE, SAILBOAT, 18' X 6'
                                    > >
                                    > > I emailed Jim Michalak and he said it could probably be adapted to many factory boats easily, and would likely help offset high freeboard and help pointing.
                                    > >
                                    > > This would not affect the structure of the 240 and the mast could be an aluminum tube 12-15 feet long.  the sail could be, as in my case, a spare jib.  The Bolger Micro can self steer with that mizzen.. some say within plus or minus 3 degrees.. except when close hauled sailing to windward.
                                    > >
                                    > > Watch the micro self steering here 
                                    > > 1. 1:28
                                    > > Bolger Micro Self-Steering
                                    > > Sailing Micro in 12 to 15 knots on Lake Wivenhoe
                                    > > 2 years ago | 8,745 views
                                    > > by jetta1342
                                    > >
                                    > > Andrew
                                    > >
                                    >







                                  • Andres Espino
                                    Ummm.. well the previous owner did also install a motorwell in the stern of the cockpit, with covered holds on either side,  which shortened the cockpit by
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Oct 4, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Ummm.. well the previous owner did also install a motorwell in the stern of the cockpit, with covered holds on either side,  which shortened the cockpit by 1/3 but it is rather invisible except from in the cockpit looking down.  it does provide fast draining and eliminates an OB hanging off the stern and a short shaft motor will fit.

                                      The other things I have done were mostly renewing the cosmetics of the interior.  I upgraded the rigging from 1/8 (3mm) to 3/16 but it too is invisible.

                                      Andrew


                                      From: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
                                      To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 6:34 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL

                                       
                                      LOL well my boat continues to look like a Bucc 240.  i saw this as an optional accessory.

                                      When reading and watching videos about the self steering ability of Bolger type boats with the mizzen sail.. I began to see it as a possible cheap alternative to a windvane or elec autopilot, and better than a bungeed tiller for self steering. 

                                      The fact that such a small 12-15ft mizzen mast and sail can be plugged into a simple bracket on the outside of the transom adds to the attractiveness of such an idea.  All other rigging and sails would remain unaltered.

                                      Agreed it would give the 240 or 270 a bit if a Bolger look when the mizzen was in use but requires no cutting or serious changes to the boat itself.

                                      Users of the Bolger Micro report self steering within plus or minus 3 degrees which is acceptable with a GPS to consult frequently.

                                      i plan to try to take my 240 on extended voyages and so I did add 2 more internal water tanks, 2 batteries and solar panel which hardly detract from the look of a Buccaneer.


                                      From: Jbc <c670cj@...>
                                      To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 1:29 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL

                                       
                                      As the mad Dr. Frankenstein screamed as the lightning struck all around the monster which had been cobbled together by discarded human parts...."ITS ALIVE!"

                                      One has to be careful not to overly pervert what I believe is the inherent natural beauty, symmetry and sea-kindly performance of the Buccaneer...it may well get to a point where you'll have to start your own group, since your boat will no longer be recognizable as the Bayliner product it started out as....which is maybe what your after.

                                      In any event...Good luck with that!


                                      From: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
                                      To: "BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com" <BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 2:56 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL

                                       
                                      Okay.. this is not a conventional Yawl rig.  It is Bolgers idea or I think he was the first.  The mizzen is mounted offset in the starboard quarter of the stern or that side of the transom  not in the center.  Michalak studied a lot of Bolger designs and he is the only living designer Iknow if who is continuing the legacy of Bolger type square boats.  A picture is worth a thousand words so I will insert a few pics here.

                                      Michalak's Cariline is the one that has the outer stern bracket.  Jim said there are several ways to do this so I plan to bend some 1/4 aluminum plate into loops that a square 4x4 will drop into and rest aon a piece bent into an angle on the bottom.

                                      here is the link and pic of Caroline  





                                      I think it is worth buying the VIOLA plans for $27.50 and have all the mizzen construction details.  Viola is a larger 22 and 26 foot model similar to a Catalina 22 with a mizzen.  they are the same except the caroline bolts to the outside of the transom.

                                      Viola22 - cabin sailboat - 22' x 7'

                                      Viola26 - cabin sailboat - 26' x 7'


                                      Here is a video of Bolgers Martha Jane that clearly shows the owner unfurling the sails and setting up the mizzen... notice the offset.

                                      Bolger Martha Jane sail test run
                                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TiJC_rGcho

                                      Martha Jane is the big sister to Bolgers Long Micro and is close to the size of my 240  Also there is the AS19.  Most if not all Bolger boats have the mizzen offset and Michalak does the same thing.  It  Looks weird but turns out to be efficient and out of the way of the rudder and boarding ladder and outboard if someone has one.

                                      In this video of sailing a Bolger Micro.. notice the man is seated by the offset. mizzen on the stern.  This shows the mizzen and tiller and so  on quite clearly.

                                      The mizzen typically tapers to 2 inches at the peak.  they are usually solid so it makes sense to start with a good straight 4x4 which is planed down to 3.5 at the lumberyard.  Usually one saws it on a taper to a 2 inch tip all 4 sides and then saws off the ridges to form an octogon.. some stop there and others round it smooth with a belt sander or power plane.  It is not an exact thing but best to start the taper above the mounting section about 2-3 feet.  I will try to have mine 15 feet above the transom tapering from 3.5in to 2 inches.  The sail is either lashed on with a loop ed line thru grommets or the sail is sewed with a sleeve that slides down the mast.  i will do the first and use spare jibs I already have so my experiment will be very cheap... maybe 50 bucks.

                                      The mizzen boom is usually secured on top of the side deck at the stern.  So the mast bracket is simple bolt ons like an OB bracket but on starboard and the mizzen boom may be secured with "U" clamps.

                                      I would not change the sails at all because this is just a weathervane sort of mizzen sail to assist in pointing and tracking not driving the boat.  I plan to just add it.  I could remove the mizzen from the socket and the 240 would appear relatively unchanged.

                                      Andrew


                                      From: paulmorf <pmorf@...>
                                      To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 8:24 AM
                                      Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL

                                       
                                      2 Q's, Andrew....#1...do you suppose that it is necessary to cut back on main or jib areas in order to balance out the total SQFT. area of the sails on a 270 if you/we added the mizzen sail?
                                      #2...any recommendations on "the bracket" used to carry the mizzen mast?. My guess is that it would need to stand about 2ft. or so aft the stern/transom in order to clear the rudder head

                                      --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > According to Jim Michalak, the easiest is to make an outside bracket to support the mizzen like on his Caroline.  He said I can get a Caroline mizzen sail ready made on Duckworks   http://duckworksbbs.com/sails/jim/sail.htm  or i thought I could use a lashed on spare jib sail with the sprit boom.
                                      >
                                      > The mizzen offers weather vaning and pointing assistance in most points of wind from off the bow to the stern, but not too well running before the wind because it will want to blow the mizzen sail forward. (thats how I imagine it)
                                      >
                                      > I am thinking of it in place of using a drogue to help keep my beamy boat pointed.
                                      >
                                      > I am curious what your questions might be...  I have been researching this since I had my sharpie since I am a Bolger fan.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Andrew
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      > From: paulmorf <pmorf@...>
                                      > To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 9:09 AM
                                      > Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      > Go for it, Andrew....and keep us posted about how things work out. I've got several Q's about adapting a BUC so as to carry a mizzen and small sail. It you find it to be more or less workable, I'm game too!
                                      > Paul....skipper of the Buc 270 "Fresh Gail" out of Racine WI.
                                      >
                                      > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Okay I am a crazy man  LOL
                                      > >
                                      > > Just for fun,  I am toying with adding a transom mounted mizzen to my 240 and a small sail like most Bolger square boats have and which Michalak recommends on many of his designs.  At least one of his designs (18ft Caroline) has a socked made on the outside of the transom so a mizzen can be dropped into it.     http://duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caroline/index.htm
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > CAROLINE, SAILBOAT, 18' X 6'
                                      > >
                                      > > I emailed Jim Michalak and he said it could probably be adapted to many factory boats easily, and would likely help offset high freeboard and help pointing.
                                      > >
                                      > > This would not affect the structure of the 240 and the mast could be an aluminum tube 12-15 feet long.  the sail could be, as in my case, a spare jib.  The Bolger Micro can self steer with that mizzen.. some say within plus or minus 3 degrees.. except when close hauled sailing to windward.
                                      > >
                                      > > Watch the micro self steering here 
                                      > > 1. 1:28
                                      > > Bolger Micro Self-Steering
                                      > > Sailing Micro in 12 to 15 knots on Lake Wivenhoe
                                      > > 2 years ago | 8,745 views
                                      > > by jetta1342
                                      > >
                                      > > Andrew
                                      > >
                                      >









                                    • paulmorf
                                      Andrew...it looks like a little bit--actually a lot more--than something I want to take on. I tink the 270 is a great yacht!. I ve added a wheel helm (for
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Oct 5, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Andrew...it looks like a little bit--actually a lot more--than something I want to take on. I tink the 270 is a great yacht!. I've added a wheel helm (for about $3K) which was a major reinvention of the 270 idea but was totally worth it! I am drawn to the idea of a
                                        mizzen off the stern BUT, it's more than I want to take on right now.
                                        BUT....you go ahead and keep us posted!. Once again, thanx for sharing ideas --even this one--and your experience with us.
                                        Paul....skipper of the "Fresh Gail".

                                        --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Okay.. this is not a conventional Yawl rig.  It is Bolgers idea or I think he was the first.  The mizzen is mounted offset in the starboard quarter of the stern or that side of the transom  not in the center.  Michalak studied a lot of Bolger designs and he is the only living designer Iknow if who is continuing the legacy of Bolger type square boats.  A picture is worth a thousand words so I will insert a few pics here.
                                        >
                                        > Michalak's Cariline is the one that has the outer stern bracket.  Jim said there are several ways to do this so I plan to bend some 1/4 aluminum plate into loops that a square 4x4 will drop into and rest aon a piece bent into an angle on the bottom.
                                        >
                                        > here is the link and pic of Caroline  
                                        >
                                        > http://duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caroline/index.htm
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I think it is worth buying the VIOLA plans for $27.50 and have all the mizzen construction details.  Viola is a larger 22 and 26 foot model similar to a Catalina 22 with a mizzen.  they are the same except the caroline bolts to the outside of the transom.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Viola22 - cabin sailboat - 22' x 7'
                                        >
                                        > Viola26 - cabin sailboat - 26' x 7'
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Here is a video of Bolgers Martha Jane that clearly shows the owner unfurling the sails and setting up the mizzen... notice the offset.
                                        >
                                        > Bolger Martha Jane sail test run
                                        > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TiJC_rGcho
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Martha Jane is the big sister to Bolgers Long Micro and is close to the size of my 240  Also there is the AS19.  Most if not all Bolger boats have the mizzen offset and Michalak does the same thing.  It  Looks weird but turns out to be efficient and out of the way of the rudder and boarding ladder and outboard if someone has one.
                                        >
                                        > In this video of sailing a Bolger Micro.. notice the man is seated by the offset. mizzen on the stern.  This shows the mizzen and tiller and so  on quite clearly.
                                        >
                                        > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD5BKu9634Y
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > The mizzen typically tapers to 2 inches at the peak.  they are usually solid so it makes sense to start with a good straight 4x4 which is planed down to 3.5 at the lumberyard.  Usually one saws it on a taper to a 2 inch tip all 4 sides and then saws off the ridges to form an octogon.. some stop there and others round it smooth with a belt sander or power plane.  It is not an exact thing but best to start the taper above the mounting section about 2-3 feet.  I will try to have mine 15 feet above the transom tapering from 3.5in to 2 inches.  The sail is either lashed on with a loop ed line thru grommets or the sail is sewed with a sleeve that slides down the mast.  i will do the first and use spare jibs I already have so my experiment will be very cheap... maybe 50 bucks.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > The mizzen boom is usually secured on top of the side deck at the stern.  So the mast bracket is simple bolt ons like an OB bracket but on starboard and the mizzen boom may be secured with "U" clamps.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I would not change the sails at all because this is just a weathervane sort of mizzen sail to assist in pointing and tracking not driving the boat.  I plan to just add it.  I could remove the mizzen from the socket and the 240 would appear relatively unchanged.
                                        >
                                        > Andrew
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________
                                        > From: paulmorf <pmorf@...>
                                        > To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 8:24 AM
                                        > Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >  
                                        > 2 Q's, Andrew....#1...do you suppose that it is necessary to cut back on main or jib areas in order to balance out the total SQFT. area of the sails on a 270 if you/we added the mizzen sail?
                                        > #2...any recommendations on "the bracket" used to carry the mizzen mast?. My guess is that it would need to stand about 2ft. or so aft the stern/transom in order to clear the rudder head
                                        >
                                        > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > According to Jim Michalak, the easiest is to make an outside bracket to support the mizzen like on his Caroline.  He said I can get a Caroline mizzen sail ready made on Duckworks   http://duckworksbbs.com/sails/jim/sail.htm%c3%83%c2%82%c3%82%c2%a0 or i thought I could use a lashed on spare jib sail with the sprit boom.
                                        > >
                                        > > The mizzen offers weather vaning and pointing assistance in most points of wind from off the bow to the stern, but not too well running before the wind because it will want to blow the mizzen sail forward. (thats how I imagine it)
                                        > >
                                        > > I am thinking of it in place of using a drogue to help keep my beamy boat pointed.
                                        > >
                                        > > I am curious what your questions might be...  I have been researching this since I had my sharpie since I am a Bolger fan.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Andrew
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ________________________________
                                        > > From: paulmorf <pmorf@>
                                        > > To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 9:09 AM
                                        > > Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >  
                                        > > Go for it, Andrew....and keep us posted about how things work out. I've got several Q's about adapting a BUC so as to carry a mizzen and small sail. It you find it to be more or less workable, I'm game too!
                                        > > Paul....skipper of the Buc 270 "Fresh Gail" out of Racine WI.
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Okay I am a crazy man  LOL
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Just for fun,  I am toying with adding a transom mounted mizzen to my 240 and a small sail like most Bolger square boats have and which Michalak recommends on many of his designs.  At least one of his designs (18ft Caroline) has a socked made on the outside of the transom so a mizzen can be dropped into it.     http://duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caroline/index.htm
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > CAROLINE, SAILBOAT, 18' X 6'
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I emailed Jim Michalak and he said it could probably be adapted to many factory boats easily, and would likely help offset high freeboard and help pointing.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > This would not affect the structure of the 240 and the mast could be an aluminum tube 12-15 feet long.  the sail could be, as in my case, a spare jib.  The Bolger Micro can self steer with that mizzen.. some say within plus or minus 3 degrees.. except when close hauled sailing to windward.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Watch the micro self steering here 
                                        > > > 1. 1:28
                                        > > > Bolger Micro Self-Steering
                                        > > > Sailing Micro in 12 to 15 knots on Lake Wivenhoe
                                        > > > 2 years ago | 8,745 views
                                        > > > by jetta1342
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Andrew
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Andres Espino
                                        I was lucky.. I got an Edson wheel helm included when I bought the 240.  The previous owner evidently did some offshore sailing. My Ritcxhie Binnacle compass
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Oct 5, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I was lucky.. I got an Edson wheel helm included when I bought the 240.  The previous owner evidently did some offshore sailing. My Ritcxhie Binnacle compass is damaged.. something (the mast?) has fallen on the dome.

                                          Yes I hear you.  I am looking at alternatives to help with self steering because the cheaper autohelm units at about $500 are made to attach to a tiller not a wheel type.  I downloaded a couple different plans to make my own windvane and holy cow!  They are a lot of work and require some machining tools i do not have or money to pay a machinist.

                                          I used to bungee the tiller on my old sharpie.. never had auto pilot of any kind before but would like something. So when I read the several accounts praising the plus or minus 3 degrees self steering created by the small bolt on mizzen sail I was intrigued and still am.

                                          The stern mount involves 5 bolts to hold on the 2 brackets and base stop,  and 2 U bolt clamps for the boom.  That's it.. nothing worse than mounting an outboard bracket.  So I think i will give it a try and see how it points and steers.  Most of the work involves tapering the mast and finishing it and I plan to lash on one of my smaller Jib Sails.  So my overall investment will be around $50 and way cheaper than any other self steering, and I hope it works better than a bungee.  If not it is no worse than removing an outboard bracket.

                                          I have plans for a simple QME (British style) DIY windvane which is supposed to connect directly to a tiller.  People report good results on boats up to 22 feet.  I think for a bigger boat like ours one would need to add a trim tab to the rudder to connect the lines.  I will give the plans I downloaded to anyone who asks for them,  I added them to the photos section on lowcostvoyaging

                                          Andrew

                                          From: paulmorf <pmorf@...>
                                          To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 8:57 AM
                                          Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL

                                           
                                          Andrew...it looks like a little bit--actually a lot more--than something I want to take on. I tink the 270 is a great yacht!. I've added a wheel helm (for about $3K) which was a major reinvention of the 270 idea but was totally worth it! I am drawn to the idea of a
                                          mizzen off the stern BUT, it's more than I want to take on right now.
                                          BUT....you go ahead and keep us posted!. Once again, thanx for sharing ideas --even this one--and your experience with us.
                                          Paul....skipper of the "Fresh Gail".

                                          --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Okay.. this is not a conventional Yawl rig.  It is Bolgers idea or I think he was the first.  The mizzen is mounted offset in the starboard quarter of the stern or that side of the transom  not in the center.  Michalak studied a lot of Bolger designs and he is the only living designer Iknow if who is continuing the legacy of Bolger type square boats.  A picture is worth a thousand words so I will insert a few pics here.
                                          >
                                          > Michalak's Cariline is the one that has the outer stern bracket.  Jim said there are several ways to do this so I plan to bend some 1/4 aluminum plate into loops that a square 4x4 will drop into and rest aon a piece bent into an angle on the bottom.
                                          >
                                          > here is the link and pic of Caroline  
                                          >
                                          > http://duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caroline/index.htm
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I think it is worth buying the VIOLA plans for $27.50 and have all the mizzen construction details.  Viola is a larger 22 and 26 foot model similar to a Catalina 22 with a mizzen.  they are the same except the caroline bolts to the outside of the transom.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Viola22 - cabin sailboat - 22' x 7'
                                          >
                                          > Viola26 - cabin sailboat - 26' x 7'
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Here is a video of Bolgers Martha Jane that clearly shows the owner unfurling the sails and setting up the mizzen... notice the offset.
                                          >
                                          > Bolger Martha Jane sail test run
                                          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TiJC_rGcho
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Martha Jane is the big sister to Bolgers Long Micro and is close to the size of my 240  Also there is the AS19.  Most if not all Bolger boats have the mizzen offset and Michalak does the same thing.  It  Looks weird but turns out to be efficient and out of the way of the rudder and boarding ladder and outboard if someone has one.
                                          >
                                          > In this video of sailing a Bolger Micro.. notice the man is seated by the offset. mizzen on the stern.  This shows the mizzen and tiller and so  on quite clearly.
                                          >
                                          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD5BKu9634Y
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > The mizzen typically tapers to 2 inches at the peak.  they are usually solid so it makes sense to start with a good straight 4x4 which is planed down to 3.5 at the lumberyard.  Usually one saws it on a taper to a 2 inch tip all 4 sides and then saws off the ridges to form an octogon.. some stop there and others round it smooth with a belt sander or power plane.  It is not an exact thing but best to start the taper above the mounting section about 2-3 feet.  I will try to have mine 15 feet above the transom tapering from 3.5in to 2 inches.  The sail is either lashed on with a loop ed line thru grommets or the sail is sewed with a sleeve that slides down the mast.  i will do the first and use spare jibs I already have so my experiment will be very cheap... maybe 50 bucks.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > The mizzen boom is usually secured on top of the side deck at the stern.  So the mast bracket is simple bolt ons like an OB bracket but on starboard and the mizzen boom may be secured with "U" clamps.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I would not change the sails at all because this is just a weathervane sort of mizzen sail to assist in pointing and tracking not driving the boat.  I plan to just add it.  I could remove the mizzen from the socket and the 240 would appear relatively unchanged.
                                          >
                                          > Andrew
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ________________________________
                                          > From: paulmorf <pmorf@...>
                                          > To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 8:24 AM
                                          > Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          > 2 Q's, Andrew....#1...do you suppose that it is necessary to cut back on main or jib areas in order to balance out the total SQFT. area of the sails on a 270 if you/we added the mizzen sail?
                                          > #2...any recommendations on "the bracket" used to carry the mizzen mast?. My guess is that it would need to stand about 2ft. or so aft the stern/transom in order to clear the rudder head
                                          >
                                          > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > According to Jim Michalak, the easiest is to make an outside bracket to support the mizzen like on his Caroline.  He said I can get a Caroline mizzen sail ready made on Duckworks   http://duckworksbbs.com/sails/jim/sail.htm  or i thought I could use a lashed on spare jib sail with the sprit boom.
                                          > >
                                          > > The mizzen offers weather vaning and pointing assistance in most points of wind from off the bow to the stern, but not too well running before the wind because it will want to blow the mizzen sail forward. (thats how I imagine it)
                                          > >
                                          > > I am thinking of it in place of using a drogue to help keep my beamy boat pointed.
                                          > >
                                          > > I am curious what your questions might be...  I have been researching this since I had my sharpie since I am a Bolger fan.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Andrew
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ________________________________
                                          > > From: paulmorf <pmorf@>
                                          > > To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 9:09 AM
                                          > > Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >  
                                          > > Go for it, Andrew....and keep us posted about how things work out. I've got several Q's about adapting a BUC so as to carry a mizzen and small sail. It you find it to be more or less workable, I'm game too!
                                          > > Paul....skipper of the Buc 270 "Fresh Gail" out of Racine WI.
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Okay I am a crazy man  LOL
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Just for fun,  I am toying with adding a transom mounted mizzen to my 240 and a small sail like most Bolger square boats have and which Michalak recommends on many of his designs.  At least one of his designs (18ft Caroline) has a socked made on the outside of the transom so a mizzen can be dropped into it.     http://duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caroline/index.htm
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > CAROLINE, SAILBOAT, 18' X 6'
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I emailed Jim Michalak and he said it could probably be adapted to many factory boats easily, and would likely help offset high freeboard and help pointing.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > This would not affect the structure of the 240 and the mast could be an aluminum tube 12-15 feet long.  the sail could be, as in my case, a spare jib.  The Bolger Micro can self steer with that mizzen.. some say within plus or minus 3 degrees.. except when close hauled sailing to windward.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Watch the micro self steering here 
                                          > > > 1. 1:28
                                          > > > Bolger Micro Self-Steering
                                          > > > Sailing Micro in 12 to 15 knots on Lake Wivenhoe
                                          > > > 2 years ago | 8,745 views
                                          > > > by jetta1342
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Andrew
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >



                                        • pcollins8872
                                          Okay, I tried to keep my mouth shut… Before anyone starts chainsawing their Bucc - Things to consider: Self steering only works if the boat is quite balanced
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Oct 6, 2012
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                                            Okay, I tried to keep my mouth shut…
                                            Before anyone starts chainsawing their Bucc - Things to consider:
                                            Self steering only works if the boat is quite balanced and well behaved. Even autopilots struggle with unbalanced boats.
                                            Assuming your boat is balanced now, adding a mizzen off the transom will RADICALLY affect balance. It changes the sailplan COE lead to the CLR of the keel, and a host of other things. (I don't give a crap what Michalak says.)
                                            Nothing you do with adding masts or sailplan changes will do much for your pointing angle. If you want to point higher, get a DEEPER keel.
                                            The high freeboard of the 240 will also make self steering or autopilots strain to hold a course in strong winds.

                                            Even so, I kinda like the idea…. ;-) The "stabilizing sail" yawl rig has a history of seaworthy usefullnness, but in EVERY SINGLE CASE the boat was Designed for it….



                                            Oh, and, ~c670cj – "inherent natural beauty" ?!!
                                          • Jbc
                                            ...is in the eye of the beholder.....and yes, I think shes beautiful. ________________________________ From: pcollins8872 To:
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Oct 6, 2012
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                                              ...is in the eye of the beholder.....and yes, I think shes beautiful.


                                              From: pcollins8872 <PandD_Collins@...>
                                              To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 2:24 AM
                                              Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL

                                               
                                              Okay, I tried to keep my mouth shut…
                                              Before anyone starts chainsawing their Bucc - Things to consider:
                                              Self steering only works if the boat is quite balanced and well behaved. Even autopilots struggle with unbalanced boats.
                                              Assuming your boat is balanced now, adding a mizzen off the transom will RADICALLY affect balance. It changes the sailplan COE lead to the CLR of the keel, and a host of other things. (I don't give a crap what Michalak says.)
                                              Nothing you do with adding masts or sailplan changes will do much for your pointing angle. If you want to point higher, get a DEEPER keel.
                                              The high freeboard of the 240 will also make self steering or autopilots strain to hold a course in strong winds.

                                              Even so, I kinda like the idea…. ;-) The "stabilizing sail" yawl rig has a history of seaworthy usefullnness, but in EVERY SINGLE CASE the boat was Designed for it….

                                              Oh, and, ~c670cj – "inherent natural beauty" ?!!



                                            • Mike
                                              I have owned my 240 for 25 years and is all original. She is a compromise but suits us very well. She s not the prettiest girl but beauty is in the eye of the
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Oct 6, 2012
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                                                I have owned my 240 for 25 years and is all original. She is a compromise but suits us very well. She's not the prettiest girl but beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.

                                                --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "pcollins8872" <PandD_Collins@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Okay, I tried to keep my mouth shut�
                                                > Before anyone starts chainsawing their Bucc - Things to consider:
                                                > Self steering only works if the boat is quite balanced and well behaved. Even autopilots struggle with unbalanced boats.
                                                > Assuming your boat is balanced now, adding a mizzen off the transom will RADICALLY affect balance. It changes the sailplan COE lead to the CLR of the keel, and a host of other things. (I don't give a crap what Michalak says.)
                                                > Nothing you do with adding masts or sailplan changes will do much for your pointing angle. If you want to point higher, get a DEEPER keel.
                                                > The high freeboard of the 240 will also make self steering or autopilots strain to hold a course in strong winds.
                                                >
                                                > Even so, I kinda like the idea�. ;-) The "stabilizing sail" yawl rig has a history of seaworthy usefullnness, but in EVERY SINGLE CASE the boat was Designed for it�.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Oh, and, ~c670cj � "inherent natural beauty" ?!!
                                                >
                                              • PhilC
                                                I could have sworn I added a ;-) to the end of my sentence...
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Oct 6, 2012
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                                                  I could have sworn I added a ;-) to the end of my sentence...

                                                  --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Jbc <c670cj@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > ...is in the eye of the beholder.....and yes, I think shes beautiful.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • Jbc
                                                  Apology accepted...  :). ________________________________ From: PhilC To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday,
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Oct 6, 2012
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                                                    Apology accepted...  :).



                                                    From: PhilC <PandD_Collins@...>
                                                    To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 5:32 PM
                                                    Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL

                                                     
                                                    I could have sworn I added a ;-) to the end of my sentence...

                                                    --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, Jbc <c670cj@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > ...is in the eye of the beholder.....and yes, I think shes beautiful.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >



                                                  • Andres Espino
                                                    Yes you do raise some valid points and most of Bolgers boats were lug rigs or catboats.  Michalak however is not a home study hack.. he is an Aerospace Design
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Oct 7, 2012
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                                                      Yes you do raise some valid points and most of Bolgers boats were lug rigs or catboats. 

                                                      Michalak however is not a home study hack.. he is an Aerospace Design Engineer who started boat designing as a sideline hobby and was personally acquainted with Phil Bolger and others.  His plans have been put through hull design software and behave as he predicts.  He generally understates their capabilities.

                                                      The Bolger Micro, which has reportedly self steered so well with the mizzen, does have a keel but it is only about 18 inches deep.

                                                      Some Bolger boats like Martha Jane and Michalak's Viola have a main mast in the same COE position as a sloop... and they will sail the same with or without the mizzen plugged in and furled.  Both can utilize foresails.  Like all Bolger type 'square boats' they also have wide beams, blunt bows and high freeboard.  Martha Jane has no keel but water ballast and uses a Leeboard which Bolger and Michalak are both fond of.  I myself am not a fan of Dutch boats.

                                                      As for pointing, i was referring to the weather vane effect that the mizzen does which i was doing with a drogue before.  For steering you don't want a drogue.. in that case once you get the boat on a prescribed course you adjust the mizzen like a windvane to hold it there with only a bungee on the tiller.  If the boat tries to veer the wind on the mizzen will straighten it out again  much like sheet to tiller steering.

                                                      I agree that I would not just tell everyone to do this, but I am not a novice and have built 3 boats of similar designs, two Grand Banks Dories and a Sharpie, before undertaking this boat. 

                                                      The overall dimensions and characteristics of the 240 compare rather closely with Bolger and Michalak designs in length, keel, beam, freeboard, ballast and mast positioning. 

                                                      Since I will never know for certain without trying it and it is as simple as bolting on an OB bracket, (no chainsawing is required  LOL),  I have the idea to try it and see how it actually works.  :D big grin

                                                      Andrew

                                                      From: pcollins8872 <PandD_Collins@...>
                                                      To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 12:24 AM
                                                      Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL

                                                       
                                                      Okay, I tried to keep my mouth shut…
                                                      Before anyone starts chainsawing their Bucc - Things to consider:
                                                      Self steering only works if the boat is quite balanced and well behaved. Even autopilots struggle with unbalanced boats.
                                                      Assuming your boat is balanced now, adding a mizzen off the transom will RADICALLY affect balance. It changes the sailplan COE lead to the CLR of the keel, and a host of other things. (I don't give a crap what Michalak says.)
                                                      Nothing you do with adding masts or sailplan changes will do much for your pointing angle. If you want to point higher, get a DEEPER keel.
                                                      The high freeboard of the 240 will also make self steering or autopilots strain to hold a course in strong winds.

                                                      Even so, I kinda like the idea…. ;-) The "stabilizing sail" yawl rig has a history of seaworthy usefullnness, but in EVERY SINGLE CASE the boat was Designed for it….

                                                      Oh, and, ~c670cj – "inherent natural beauty" ?!!



                                                    • Andres Espino
                                                      I too like the look of the Buccaneer 240.  The 240 was not the only boat built in that era that was beamy and slow.  The bigger Pearson Vanguard 33 would
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Oct 7, 2012
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                                                        I too like the look of the Buccaneer 240.  The 240 was not the only boat built in that era that was beamy and slow.  The bigger Pearson Vanguard 33 would appear much like an enlarged 240.  They too were reported to be slow but sturdy as a tank and forgiving to sail.

                                                        I tend to like slower functional boats and I am not into racing anyway.  The Pearson Vanguard lent itself well to conversion and many were made into junks.  I think a 240 would make a beautiful junk too and I may do it when these sails all wear out.  Again no chainsaw is required but mast partners would need to be added and the mast moved forward to just aft of the forward vee birth.

                                                        I am also a member in the junkrig group and there is a lot of accurate advice for converting many factory boats.  A book "The Practical Junk Rig"  is recommended before anyone attenpts this.

                                                        Such modifications are not for everyone but for the few desiring a different rig or purpose for their boat.  i am not so much looking for a weekend cruiser but for a boat that i can singlehand over extended distances alone and manage all lines and so on from the cockpit.  Most of the time i will sail with land in sight but will undertake some extended voyages of some days between landfalls.

                                                        Ideally i should have a windvane but cannot afford it right now so was considering the mizzen sail strictly as a steering alternative.  I have a wheel not a tiller snd so the cheaper $500 electronic tiller pilots will not adapt to this boat.


                                                        Andrew

                                                        From: Mike <mike126862003@...>
                                                        To: BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 1:19 PM
                                                        Subject: [BaylinerBuccaneerGroup] Re: Bolger Buccaneer anyone? LOL

                                                         

                                                        I have owned my 240 for 25 years and is all original. She is a compromise but suits us very well. She's not the prettiest girl but beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.

                                                        --- In BaylinerBuccaneerGroup@yahoogroups.com, "pcollins8872" <PandD_Collins@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Okay, I tried to keep my mouth shut�
                                                        > Before anyone starts chainsawing their Bucc - Things to consider:
                                                        > Self steering only works if the boat is quite balanced and well behaved. Even autopilots struggle with unbalanced boats.
                                                        > Assuming your boat is balanced now, adding a mizzen off the transom will RADICALLY affect balance. It changes the sailplan COE lead to the CLR of the keel, and a host of other things. (I don't give a crap what Michalak says.)
                                                        > Nothing you do with adding masts or sailplan changes will do much for your pointing angle. If you want to point higher, get a DEEPER keel.
                                                        > The high freeboard of the 240 will also make self steering or autopilots strain to hold a course in strong winds.
                                                        >
                                                        > Even so, I kinda like the idea�. ;-) The "stabilizing sail" yawl rig has a history of seaworthy usefullnness, but in EVERY SINGLE CASE the boat was Designed for it�.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Oh, and, ~c670cj � "inherent natural beauty" ?!!
                                                        >



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