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The place of boxing in Bartitsu

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  • Rabid Weasel Lawson
    Opinion and speculation time! Tactically, what is the relationship of Boxing and Savate in the context of la canne and JuJitsu? ... be used as simply something
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 1, 2006
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      Opinion and speculation time!

      Tactically, what is the relationship of Boxing and Savate in the context
      of la canne and JuJitsu?

      >From what I can tell, superficially at least, Boxing and Savate seem to
      be used as simply something to bridge from long range and enter into
      grappling range.

      I'm *speculating* this based upon several observations.

      1) In the unarmed Pearsons almost no boxing is shown but several entries
      into grappling range are shown and most seem to start in grappling
      range. (yes, I know this may be for other reasons :-)

      2) In the la canne Pearsons, the cane (especially light ones) are
      frequently used to pass the weapon and bridge into some sort of stick-
      assisted grapple or a throw. Middle range doesn't show up much.

      3) Tanni's published opinion on JJ in contrast with Boxing

      4) Though BW knew boxing (and tried to teach Tanni) when he demonstrated
      Bartitsu it seems to have focused more upon the la canne and the JJ
      elements.

      My speculative conclusion then is that Boxing and Savate received less
      focus than the la canne and JJ elements.

      So, here's where I get educated. Surely I've missed something here.
      What is it?

      Peace favor your sword,
      Kirk
    • will thomas
      If these arts received less attention, it was because they were known to fighters at the time, while JJ was still new. It was the drawing point to the school.
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 1, 2006
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        If these arts received less attention, it was because they were known to fighters at the time, while JJ was still new. It was the drawing point to the school. That's why Tani etc. couldn't wait to go out and teach on their own, more money for them.
        -Will

        Rabid Weasel Lawson <lawson@...> wrote:
        Opinion and speculation time!

        Tactically, what is the relationship of Boxing and Savate in the context
        of la canne and JuJitsu?

        >From what I can tell, superficially at least, Boxing and Savate seem to
        be used as simply something to bridge from long range and enter into
        grappling range.

        I'm *speculating* this based upon several observations.

        1) In the unarmed Pearsons almost no boxing is shown but several entries
        into grappling range are shown and most seem to start in grappling
        range. (yes, I know this may be for other reasons :-)

        2) In the la canne Pearsons, the cane (especially light ones) are
        frequently used to pass the weapon and bridge into some sort of stick-
        assisted grapple or a throw. Middle range doesn't show up much.

        3) Tanni's published opinion on JJ in contrast with Boxing

        4) Though BW knew boxing (and tried to teach Tanni) when he demonstrated
        Bartitsu it seems to have focused more upon the la canne and the JJ
        elements.

        My speculative conclusion then is that Boxing and Savate received less
        focus than the la canne and JJ elements.

        So, here's where I get educated. Surely I've missed something here.
        What is it?

        Peace favor your sword,
        Kirk



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      • lone_wolf_92001
        ... known to fighters at the time, while JJ was still new. It was the drawing point to the school. That s why Tani etc. couldn t wait to go out and teach on
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 1, 2006
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          --- In Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com, will thomas <baritsumaster@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > If these arts received less attention, it was because they were
          known to fighters at the time, while JJ was still new. It was the
          drawing point to the school. That's why Tani etc. couldn't wait to go
          out and teach on their own, more money for them.
          > -Will

          What Will said; boxing, in particular, seems to have been pretty much
          taken for granted, and by 1902 neither boxing nor savate had the wow
          factor of JJ/Vigny canne.

          On the other hand, although the novelty of jiujitsu and combat canne
          would justify B-W devoting magazine articles to them, that may not
          necessarily reflect the proportionate value assigned to these arts at
          the Bartitsu Club itself. B-W was inclined to say things like "in
          order to get to close range, it is absolutely necessary to understand
          the use of the fist and the foot" and the Black and White Budget
          article stresses that both boxing and savate, as taught at the Club,
          had been "adapted" for use in actual self defence rather than as
          gentlemanly sports.

          I think it's safe to say that the proportions may have been in the
          order of 3/4 stick and jiujitsu, 1/4 modified boxing and savate, with
          room for personal preferences. It's evident that B-W's ideal for
          Bartitsu was that students should know enough of all the principal
          arts to be able to defend against them and to use one against the
          other as needs be.

          I doubt that he really had time to develop Bartitsu into a polished
          art in its own right before the Club closed down, and we can only
          speculate about his own further development of Bartitsu after that
          (although the books produced by the second generation teachers are
          probably a good indication>) IMHO, that just means that it existed,
          and can continue to exist, as a process of cross-training and
          experimentation between the Japanese, Swiss/French and English systems.

          For newbies, see the essay "A System Which He Termed 'Bartitsu'" in
          the Bartitsu Compendium for the background to this discussion.

          The floor is open ...

          Tony
        • will thomas
          I m square in your corner, Tony. That is how I ve read it. -Will ... known to fighters at the time, while JJ was still new. It was the drawing point to the
          Message 4 of 4 , Aug 2, 2006
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            I'm square in your corner, Tony. That is how I've read it.
            -Will

            lone_wolf_92001 <lone_wolf_9@...> wrote:
            --- In Bartitsu_Forum@ yahoogroups. com, will thomas <baritsumaster@ ...>
            wrote:
            >
            > If these arts received less attention, it was because they were
            known to fighters at the time, while JJ was still new. It was the
            drawing point to the school. That's why Tani etc. couldn't wait to go
            out and teach on their own, more money for them.
            > -Will

            What Will said; boxing, in particular, seems to have been pretty much
            taken for granted, and by 1902 neither boxing nor savate had the wow
            factor of JJ/Vigny canne.

            On the other hand, although the novelty of jiujitsu and combat canne
            would justify B-W devoting magazine articles to them, that may not
            necessarily reflect the proportionate value assigned to these arts at
            the Bartitsu Club itself. B-W was inclined to say things like "in
            order to get to close range, it is absolutely necessary to understand
            the use of the fist and the foot" and the Black and White Budget
            article stresses that both boxing and savate, as taught at the Club,
            had been "adapted" for use in actual self defence rather than as
            gentlemanly sports.

            I think it's safe to say that the proportions may have been in the
            order of 3/4 stick and jiujitsu, 1/4 modified boxing and savate, with
            room for personal preferences. It's evident that B-W's ideal for
            Bartitsu was that students should know enough of all the principal
            arts to be able to defend against them and to use one against the
            other as needs be.

            I doubt that he really had time to develop Bartitsu into a polished
            art in its own right before the Club closed down, and we can only
            speculate about his own further development of Bartitsu after that
            (although the books produced by the second generation teachers are
            probably a good indication>) IMHO, that just means that it existed,
            and can continue to exist, as a process of cross-training and
            experimentation between the Japanese, Swiss/French and English systems.

            For newbies, see the essay "A System Which He Termed 'Bartitsu'" in
            the Bartitsu Compendium for the background to this discussion.

            The floor is open ...

            Tony



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