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RE: [BackpackGearTest] QUESTION: inclusion of comparison & cost info in test reports

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  • Mark McLauchlin
    I ll be watching this one Kurt, I have the same thoughts. My comparison would be to baby wipes, also very effective. They are rather big wipes, Cheers _____
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 6, 2008
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      I'll be watching this one Kurt, I have the same thoughts.



      My comparison would be to baby wipes, also very effective.



      They are rather big wipes,



      Cheers



      _____

      From: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kwpapke
      Sent: Friday, 6 June 2008 10:01 PM
      To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [BackpackGearTest] QUESTION: inclusion of comparison & cost info in
      test reports



      I am working on some content for my FR on the Adventure Medical Travel
      Wipes. I have used off-the-shelf WetOnes, etc. in the past and the
      Wipes I am testing seem both bulky and costly in comparison to what
      you can pick up in a drugstore for $1.

      OTOH, the bylaws clearly state we are not to include product comparisons.

      I would like to include something like the following in the summary,
      and I am looking for feedback on whether it is appropriate and perhaps
      suggestions on how to re-phrase it:

      "I find that the Travel Wipes are more costly than drugstore
      varieties, and substantially more bulky, and its not clear to me that
      the additional cleaning effectiveness warrants both the larger space
      and weight in my pack and the additional cost."

      Thanks in advance for your help.

      --Kurt





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Greg
      Hey Guys, It might not mean much since I m new, but I ve got an opinion. Agreed, the ByLaws state not to point to product comparisions. However, in the summary
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 6, 2008
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        Hey Guys,

        It might not mean much since I'm new, but I've got an opinion.

        Agreed, the ByLaws state not to point to product comparisions.
        However, in the summary that you've worded up Kurt you don't actually
        make any comparisions to anything specific - you make a general
        observation about a product that you have experiences with. It would
        probably not be appropriate to say you prefer WetOnes or what have
        you, but you are stating a general conclusion in your report that you
        don't see a huge advantage to this specialty product. To me, that
        certainly has a place and I personally like how you worded it.

        I am looking at it from the perspective of myself as somebody reading
        a report trying to decide whether or not to buy something. If I read
        your report and you say that in your opinion there isn't much
        advantage of these wipes compared to something I could get from the
        drug store I would find that to be valuable information.

        If I may, I'd actually like to quote Ray's recent OR on his MSR
        DromLite (Message No. 75865):
        "I tried to use the DromLite as a hydration bladder using the Hands
        Free Kit but did not care for it. Purpose made bladders work much
        better."
        That is certainly an observation of his, and he does say he prefers
        something else without making a direct comparision - which is what I
        see when I read your statement.

        Obviously I have no authority and have no say in it, but I fully
        support you having that in there. It is NOT a
        direct product comparison and it is a valuable observation.

        Greg M

        --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "Mark McLauchlin" <mark@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I'll be watching this one Kurt, I have the same thoughts.
        > My comparison would be to baby wipes, also very effective.
        > They are rather big wipes,
        > Cheers
        _____
        >
        > From: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kwpapke
        > Sent: Friday, 6 June 2008 10:01 PM
        >
        > I am working on some content for my FR on the Adventure Medical
        Travel
        > Wipes. I have used off-the-shelf WetOnes, etc. in the past and the
        > Wipes I am testing seem both bulky and costly in comparison to what
        > you can pick up in a drugstore for $1.
        >
        > OTOH, the bylaws clearly state we are not to include product
        comparisons.
        >
        > I would like to include something like the following in the summary,
        > and I am looking for feedback on whether it is appropriate and
        perhaps
        > suggestions on how to re-phrase it:
        >
        > "I find that the Travel Wipes are more costly than drugstore
        > varieties, and substantially more bulky, and its not clear to me
        that
        > the additional cleaning effectiveness warrants both the larger space
        > and weight in my pack and the additional cost."
        >
        > Thanks in advance for your help.
        >
        > --Kurt
      • rayestrella1
        ... ... But there is a difference between reviews and reports. A review is of something that we purchased and therefore can complain or not about the
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 6, 2008
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          --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <gdm320@...> wrote:
          >
          > However, in the summary that you've worded up Kurt you don't
          > actually make any comparisons to anything specific - you make a
          > general observation about a product that you have experiences with.
          <snip>
          > If I may, I'd actually like to quote Ray's recent OR on his MSR
          > DromLite (Message No. 75865): "I tried to use the DromLite as a
          > hydration bladder using the Hands Free Kit but did not care for it.
          > Purpose made bladders work much better." That is certainly an
          > observation of his, and he does say he prefers something else
          > without making a direct comparison.


          But there is a difference between reviews and reports. A review is of
          something that we purchased and therefore can complain or not about
          the price. A test item is something we are given and are supposed to
          be looking at how they perform in their stated use. While I feel the
          remark about the space they take up is something that should be
          addressed, I personally would not go into whether it is over-priced
          or not when I did not pay for it.

          That is just my take on it, not an official statement by any means.

          Ray
        • pamwyant
          Kurt your comments seem appropriate. As pointed out, what we want to avoid is a shoot-out style review between product A & product B. Your comments avoid
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 6, 2008
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            Kurt your comments seem appropriate. As pointed out, what we want to
            avoid is a 'shoot-out' style review between product A & product B.
            Your comments avoid that, and relay your opinion in a fair way.
            Nothing wrong with that.

            Had you said the Travel Wipes aren't any better than Wet Ones or
            Huggies Baby Wipes, that would not have been acceptable. Hope that
            makes sense.

            Pam

            --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "kwpapke" <kwpapke@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > I am working on some content for my FR on the Adventure Medical
            Travel
            > Wipes. I have used off-the-shelf WetOnes, etc. in the past and the
            > Wipes I am testing seem both bulky and costly in comparison to what
            > you can pick up in a drugstore for $1.
            >
            > OTOH, the bylaws clearly state we are not to include product
            comparisons.
            >
            > I would like to include something like the following in the summary,
            > and I am looking for feedback on whether it is appropriate and
            perhaps
            > suggestions on how to re-phrase it:
            >
            > "I find that the Travel Wipes are more costly than drugstore
            > varieties, and substantially more bulky, and its not clear to me
            that
            > the additional cleaning effectiveness warrants both the larger space
            > and weight in my pack and the additional cost."
            >
            > Thanks in advance for your help.
            >
            > --Kurt
            >
          • Greg
            ... I see your point. I it comes down to how the comparison is drawn. I do remember seeing an actual Test Series for a knife (I cannot recall the exact one, I
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 6, 2008
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              --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "rayestrella1"
              > But there is a difference between reviews and reports. A review is of
              > something that we purchased and therefore can complain or not about
              > the price. A test item is something we are given and are supposed to
              > be looking at how they perform in their stated use. While I feel the
              > remark about the space they take up is something that should be
              > addressed, I personally would not go into whether it is over-priced
              > or not when I did not pay for it.

              I see your point. I it comes down to how the comparison is drawn. I do
              remember seeing an actual Test Series for a knife (I cannot recall the
              exact one, I will have to go searching) that mentioned the knife being
              a pricey for it's performance. I'm interested to see the response
              because this is obviously a gray area in my understanding too.

              Edit: I see I was thinking along the same lines as Pam here.

              Greg M
            • amatbrewer
              ... of ... about ... to ... the ... priced ... I would like to see some clarification on this point. I have hesitated referencing the overall value for the
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 6, 2008
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                > But there is a difference between reviews and reports. A review is
                of
                > something that we purchased and therefore can complain or not
                about
                > the price. A test item is something we are given and are supposed
                to
                > be looking at how they perform in their stated use. While I feel
                the
                > remark about the space they take up is something that should be
                > addressed, I personally would not go into whether it is over-
                priced
                > or not when I did not pay for it.

                I would like to see some clarification on this point. I have
                hesitated referencing the overall value for the cost, but we do put
                the MSRP in the report, and I personally think this is an important
                piece of information to consider before purchasing any item (even if
                it is subjective). I can admit that I have purchased items that may
                have not been the best quality, but I felt were a very good value
                for the price. For example I once purchased a $35 bivi (no kidding)
                with the intent that it only had to survive the one trip it was
                purchased for. [As it turned out I used it a lot, and my kids still
                use it… > 6 years later!]

                Dave
              • pamwyant
                Disclaimer: This is not an official opinion, just my own personal opinion. As you state, value is very subjective. What is a great value for one person may
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 6, 2008
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                  Disclaimer: This is not an official opinion, just my own personal
                  opinion.

                  As you state, value is very subjective. What is a great value for
                  one person may not be a good value for another, given different
                  financial situations and even different amounts of time individuals
                  are able to spend in the outdoors.

                  What I would personally do is avoid referencing value. If you really
                  felt something was an exceptional value, then it might be okay to say
                  that, and say why you feel that way. I would really avoid saying
                  something was not a good value for the money unless it fails or you
                  have extensively used products that perform the same for the same
                  price. Even then, I would recommend saying the product was not a
                  good value for *you*, as the reviewer does in the case of the wipes.

                  Pam

                  --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "amatbrewer"
                  <amatbrewer@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >

                  >
                  > I would like to see some clarification on this point. I have
                  > hesitated referencing the overall value for the cost, but we do put
                  > the MSRP in the report, and I personally think this is an important
                  > piece of information to consider before purchasing any item (even
                  if
                  > it is subjective). I can admit that I have purchased items that may
                  > have not been the best quality, but I felt were a very good value
                  > for the price. For example I once purchased a $35 bivi (no kidding)
                  > with the intent that it only had to survive the one trip it was
                  > purchased for. [As it turned out I used it a lot, and my kids still
                  > use it… > 6 years later!]
                  >
                  > Dave
                  >
                • David Wilkes
                  Good point. Thanks! Dave Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device from U.S. Cellular ... From: pamwyant Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 6, 2008
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                    Good point.
                    Thanks!

                    Dave
                    Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device from U.S. Cellular

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: "pamwyant" <pamwyant@...>

                    Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:34:28
                    To:BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [BackpackGearTest] Re: QUESTION: inclusion of comparison & cost info in test reports


                    Disclaimer: This is not an official opinion, just my own personal
                    opinion.

                    As you state, value is very subjective. What is a great value for
                    one person may not be a good value for another, given different
                    financial situations and even different amounts of time individuals
                    are able to spend in the outdoors.

                    What I would personally do is avoid referencing value. If you really
                    felt something was an exceptional value, then it might be okay to say
                    that, and say why you feel that way. I would really avoid saying
                    something was not a good value for the money unless it fails or you
                    have extensively used products that perform the same for the same
                    price. Even then, I would recommend saying the product was not a
                    good value for *you*, as the reviewer does in the case of the wipes.

                    Pam

                    --- In BackpackGearTest@ <mailto:BackpackGearTest%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com, "amatbrewer"
                    <amatbrewer@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >

                    >
                    > I would like to see some clarification on this point. I have
                    > hesitated referencing the overall value for the cost, but we do put
                    > the MSRP in the report, and I personally think this is an important
                    > piece of information to consider before purchasing any item (even
                    if
                    > it is subjective). I can admit that I have purchased items that may
                    > have not been the best quality, but I felt were a very good value
                    > for the price. For example I once purchased a $35 bivi (no kidding)
                    > with the intent that it only had to survive the one trip it was
                    > purchased for. [As it turned out I used it a lot, and my kids still
                    > use it… > 6 years later!]
                    >
                    > Dave
                    >
                  • Mark McLauchlin
                    Thanks to all, Seems to have cleared that up nicely, Posting here is like Christmas morning, when you are in Australia, send a message at night and wake up and
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 6, 2008
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                      Thanks to all, Seems to have cleared that up nicely,

                      Posting here is like Christmas morning, when you are in Australia, send a
                      message at night and wake up and there are a whole heap of replies.

                      Don't you guys get sick of being on the wrong side of the world :)

                      Cheers

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Wilkes
                      Sent: Saturday, 7 June 2008 4:39 AM
                      To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [BackpackGearTest] Re: QUESTION: inclusion of comparison & cost
                      info in test reports

                      Good point.
                      Thanks!

                      Dave
                      Sent from my BlackBerryR wireless device from U.S. Cellular

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: "pamwyant" <pamwyant@...>

                      Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:34:28
                      To:BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [BackpackGearTest] Re: QUESTION: inclusion of comparison & cost
                      info in test reports


                      Disclaimer: This is not an official opinion, just my own personal
                      opinion.

                      As you state, value is very subjective. What is a great value for
                      one person may not be a good value for another, given different
                      financial situations and even different amounts of time individuals
                      are able to spend in the outdoors.

                      What I would personally do is avoid referencing value. If you really
                      felt something was an exceptional value, then it might be okay to say
                      that, and say why you feel that way. I would really avoid saying
                      something was not a good value for the money unless it fails or you
                      have extensively used products that perform the same for the same
                      price. Even then, I would recommend saying the product was not a
                      good value for *you*, as the reviewer does in the case of the wipes.

                      Pam

                      --- In BackpackGearTest@ <mailto:BackpackGearTest%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com, "amatbrewer"
                      <amatbrewer@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >

                      >
                      > I would like to see some clarification on this point. I have
                      > hesitated referencing the overall value for the cost, but we do put
                      > the MSRP in the report, and I personally think this is an important
                      > piece of information to consider before purchasing any item (even
                      if
                      > it is subjective). I can admit that I have purchased items that may
                      > have not been the best quality, but I felt were a very good value
                      > for the price. For example I once purchased a $35 bivi (no kidding)
                      > with the intent that it only had to survive the one trip it was
                      > purchased for. [As it turned out I used it a lot, and my kids still
                      > use it. > 6 years later!]
                      >
                      > Dave
                      >


                      ------------------------------------

                      To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/Yahoo!
                      Groups Links
                    • Roger Caffin
                      ... The first rule here is that we don t do Product A vs Product B shootouts. It gets the suppliers all snarky. That s a definite rule. However, if you think
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 7, 2008
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                        >I find that the Travel Wipes are more costly than drugstore
                        > varieties, and substantially more bulky, and its not clear to me that
                        > the additional cleaning effectiveness warrants both the larger space
                        > and weight in my pack and the additional cost."

                        The first rule here is that we don't do Product A vs Product B shootouts. It
                        gets the suppliers all snarky. That's a definite rule.

                        However, if you think you have enough experience of the market that you can
                        make a comparison of Product A against the field, that is usually fair game,
                        as long as you give fair and honest reasons for your comments. We are not
                        here just to sing unmitigated praise for every product tested.

                        A good rule here is to ask yourself whether your comments would help a
                        novice seeking honest information about Product A. The comparisons you have
                        made are quite general but will assist the reader.

                        I see no difference between price, weight and bulk in comparisons. All
                        matter to the reader.

                        My 2c.

                        Cheers
                        Roger
                      • André Corterier
                        ... wrote: ... Yes. But usually by the time that happens, our vacation time is over and we get to come back here. ... André
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jun 9, 2008
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                          --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "Mark McLauchlin" <mark@...>
                          wrote:
                          <snip>
                          > Don't you guys get sick of being on the wrong side of the world :)
                          >
                          > Cheers

                          Yes. But usually by the time that happens, our vacation time is over
                          and we get to come back here.
                          :-P
                          André
                        • Andrew Priest
                          Hi Kurt This is your official repsonse. It sounds good to me. Regards Andrew ... -- Senior Edit Moderator [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 10, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Kurt

                            This is your official repsonse. It sounds good to me.

                            Regards
                            Andrew

                            2008/6/6 kwpapke <kwpapke@...>:

                            > I am working on some content for my FR on the Adventure Medical Travel
                            > Wipes. I have used off-the-shelf WetOnes, etc. in the past and the
                            > Wipes I am testing seem both bulky and costly in comparison to what
                            > you can pick up in a drugstore for $1.
                            >
                            > OTOH, the bylaws clearly state we are not to include product comparisons.
                            >
                            > I would like to include something like the following in the summary,
                            > and I am looking for feedback on whether it is appropriate and perhaps
                            > suggestions on how to re-phrase it:
                            >
                            > "I find that the Travel Wipes are more costly than drugstore
                            > varieties, and substantially more bulky, and its not clear to me that
                            > the additional cleaning effectiveness warrants both the larger space
                            > and weight in my pack and the additional cost."
                            >
                            > Thanks in advance for your help.
                            >
                            > --Kurt
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/Yahoo!
                            > Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            --
                            Senior Edit Moderator


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • kwpapke
                            I thought the discussion from all participants was very valuable - good to get all the POV s. Thanks everyone, got what I needed. Regards, --Kurt ...
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jun 11, 2008
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                              I thought the discussion from all participants was very valuable -
                              good to get all the POV's. Thanks everyone, got what I needed.

                              Regards,
                              --Kurt

                              --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Priest" <apriest@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Kurt
                              >
                              > This is your official repsonse. It sounds good to me.
                              >
                              > Regards
                              > Andrew
                              >
                              > 2008/6/6 kwpapke <kwpapke@...>:
                              >
                              > > I am working on some content for my FR on the Adventure Medical Travel
                              > > Wipes. I have used off-the-shelf WetOnes, etc. in the past and the
                              > > Wipes I am testing seem both bulky and costly in comparison to what
                              > > you can pick up in a drugstore for $1.
                              > >
                              > > OTOH, the bylaws clearly state we are not to include product
                              comparisons.
                              > >
                              > > I would like to include something like the following in the summary,
                              > > and I am looking for feedback on whether it is appropriate and perhaps
                              > > suggestions on how to re-phrase it:
                              > >
                              > > "I find that the Travel Wipes are more costly than drugstore
                              > > varieties, and substantially more bulky, and its not clear to me that
                              > > the additional cleaning effectiveness warrants both the larger space
                              > > and weight in my pack and the additional cost."
                              > >
                              > > Thanks in advance for your help.
                              > >
                              > > --Kurt
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------------------
                              > >
                              > > To read our reviews, please visit
                              http://www.backpackgeartest.org/Yahoo!
                              > > Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > --
                              > Senior Edit Moderator
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
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