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EDIT ADDENDUM: Owner Review - GoLite Hex 3 - by tim todd

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  • edwardripleyduggan
    To clarify one edit (on re-reading I thought this unclear) ***** PRODUCT DESCRIPTION: The Hex 3 is a versatile ultra-lite, expedition single walled-shelter. It
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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      To clarify one edit (on re-reading I thought this unclear)

      *****

      PRODUCT DESCRIPTION:
      The Hex 3 is a versatile ultra-lite, expedition single walled-shelter.
      It is
      constructed in the
      teepee design allowing it to handle nearly any weather condition. The
      Hex 3 can
      be
      pitched with or without a pole.

      ### EDIT: I'd like to see this section expanded, please. While you
      have the manufacturer description, this is never a substitute for a
      detailed owner description.


      *****

      What I am asking for here is a physical description of the tent,
      discussing (not necessarily in vast detail) the pole system (and how
      it is set up without poles), guying, fabric, construction, etc. You
      have some of this (the vents for example) but reading this I don't
      have a clear sense of, for example, how the door operates, a pretty
      basic pice of info.
    • nivaun
      So, why am I writing the review when someone else can do it better? It s a waste of time. I don t see where my review needs any improvement.
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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        So, why am I writing the review when someone else can do it better? It's a waste of time. I
        don't see where my review needs any improvement.
      • Jerry Goller
        Perhaps it is a waste of your time, Tim. Writing reports to our standards can prove to be pretty inconvenient. To be quite honest, the important part is that
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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          Perhaps it is a waste of your time, Tim. Writing reports to our standards
          can prove to be pretty inconvenient.

          To be quite honest, the important part is that your editor feels your report
          needs improvement.

          As far as why you are writing the review...only you know that answer.

          If you are unwilling to make the requested edits or don't want to waste your
          time on them then perhaps you should rethink this whole write reports for
          BGT thing......

          Jerry

          <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/> http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the
          most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.



          _____

          From: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nivaun
          Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 9:42 AM
          To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [BackpackGearTest] Re: EDIT ADDENDUM: Owner Review - GoLite Hex 3 -
          by tim todd


          So, why am I writing the review when someone else can do it better? It's a
          waste of time. I
          don't see where my review needs any improvement.






          To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/




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        • edwardripleyduggan
          Hi Tim, As I wrote recently on this list, the role of the editor on BGT (as with any form of editorial work) is not adversarial, although I realize it s not
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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            Hi Tim,

            As I wrote recently on this list, the role of the editor on BGT (as
            with any form of editorial work) is not adversarial, although I
            realize it's not that comfortable to have one's writing dissected. You
            should realize that all BGT reviews and test reports are carefully
            peer-edited. It's a crucial part of the process.

            Why? BGT is, in effect, a publication, and we have certain house
            styles and standards. These aren't always obvious or intuitive. Even
            the best report writers among us make mistakes, me no less than others.

            It doesn't give me any pleasure to take an hour or two out of my day
            carefully correcting a submission. Your review has a number of
            substantial defects in form and substance that I addressed. If you
            work to correct them, you will have created something worthwhile, as
            well as showing the sense of responsibility we require for gear testing.

            Best,

            Ted.


            --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "nivaun" <tim@...> wrote:
            >
            > So, why am I writing the review when someone else can do it better?
            It's a waste of time. I
            > don't see where my review needs any improvement.
            >
          • Steven H. Miller
            Are these house styles and standards delineated in writing somewhere that s accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor s work considerably.
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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              Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing somewhere
              that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor's work
              considerably.

              SteveM


              On Feb 2, 2006, at 3:41 PM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

              > Hi Tim,
              >
              > As I wrote recently on this list, the role of the editor on BGT (as
              > with any form of editorial work) is not adversarial, although I
              > realize it's not that comfortable to have one's writing dissected. You
              > should realize that all BGT reviews and test reports are carefully
              > peer-edited. It's a crucial part of the process.
              >
              > Why? BGT is, in effect, a publication, and we have certain house
              > styles and standards. These aren't always obvious or intuitive. Even
              > the best report writers among us make mistakes, me no less than
              > others.
              >
              > It doesn't give me any pleasure to take an hour or two out of my day
              > carefully correcting a submission. Your review has a number of
              > substantial defects in form and substance that I addressed. If you
              > work to correct them, you will have created something worthwhile, as
              > well as showing the sense of responsibility we require for gear
              > testing.
              >
              > Best,
              >
              > Ted.
              >
              >
              > --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "nivaun" <tim@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > So, why am I writing the review when someone else can do it better?
              > It's a waste of time. I
              > > don't see where my review needs any improvement.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
              >
              >
              >
              > SPONSORED LINKS
              > Hiking sock
              > Hiking tour
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              >  
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              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jason Boyle
              ... somewhere ... Steve and others, They best advice that I can give you as a veteran tester would be to watch the list read what others edits are, and take a
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Steven H. Miller
                <metaphorce@...> wrote:
                >
                > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                somewhere
                > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor's work
                > considerably.
                >
                > SteveM

                Steve and others,

                They best advice that I can give you as a veteran tester would be to
                watch the list read what others edits are, and take a look at some of
                the reports on the web site. Also when you joined you should have
                received a link to the survival guide which while not perfect outlines
                what is expected in a report.

                If you are looking for reports to get an idea of the content that is
                required I would start with the editors of this group. Roger Caffin,
                Pam Wyant, Colleen Porter and others.

                We don't want to change peoples style of writing, but do want to make
                sure the content of the report meets the requirements. Additionally
                there is a mentoring program where your mentor can help you with your
                report so that it will go through the editing process on this list
                much easier.

                Jason B
                Veteran Tester
              • edwardripleyduggan
                ... Not to mention the writer s... Jason s post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide, though a little out of date for a few minor details (a
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing somewhere
                  > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor's work
                  > considerably.
                  >
                  > SteveM

                  Not to mention the writer's...

                  Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide,
                  though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new version is
                  in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed that, and
                  as both a tester and an editor I agree.

                  One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and units.
                  The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has pretty
                  comprehensive information regarding how this information should be
                  presented, and I consider this text indispensable.

                  The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                  documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront. It
                  seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't internalized
                  easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                  would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting them
                  carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.

                  Ted.
                • Steven H. Miller
                  Ted and Jason: Actually, looking back through my emails, I can t find the Survival Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website, and I
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Ted and Jason:

                    Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                    Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website, and
                    I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see when
                    the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)

                    But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over the
                    past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                    which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles" involved
                    here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in the
                    online lessons.

                    Style is a very subjective call. I have noticed that every so often, a
                    new report writer just freaks out about being edited. I've seen it
                    twice in the past three weeks. It has seemed to center on a sense of
                    outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                    arbitrary.

                    It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers if a
                    couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                    since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                    editing.

                    Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                    couple of decades ago. I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                    advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:

                    a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as the
                    author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                    involved. Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you wrote
                    it that way. But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                    somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                    needs fixing... you'll find something every time. Most really good
                    writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel that
                    it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                    part with it at some point anyway.

                    b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work. Criticism
                    of your work is not criticism of you. Outright rejection of your work
                    is not rejection of you. Nobody's talking about you as a human being
                    when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag. (The first time I
                    sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                    thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                    what had happened. "I got rejected" I said. "You did not get
                    rejected!" she said very briskly. "Your script got rejected. They
                    don't know you. They've never even met you.")

                    c) This kind of writing is a job, it's not art. It's not poetry, it's
                    not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter. If
                    it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                    taking personally. But this is a job. If you were working your first
                    day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and pointed
                    to two boards you'd nailed together and said, "Hey, that joint's not
                    square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you. You'd
                    get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped you
                    out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof wouldn't
                    sit on it correctly. Writing-style is more subjective than the
                    squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                    worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about it.
                    You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                    imperfect as an editor. All we can do is try.

                    All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here.
                    It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing you,
                    just because they can. I don't know how the editors decide between
                    what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I suspect
                    that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so far.

                    Best,
                    SteveM

                    On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

                    > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                    > somewhere
                    > > that's accessible to new reporters?  It might ease the editor's work
                    > > considerably.
                    > >
                    > > SteveM
                    >
                    > Not to mention the writer's...
                    >
                    > Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide,
                    > though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new version is
                    > in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed that, and
                    > as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                    >
                    > One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and units.
                    > The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has pretty
                    > comprehensive information regarding how this information should be
                    > presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                    >
                    > The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                    > documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront. It
                    > seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't internalized
                    > easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                    > would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting them
                    > carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                    >
                    > Ted.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                    >
                    >
                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    >
                    > ▪  Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                    >  
                    > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    >  BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >  
                    > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > Service.
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • TheMiddleSister
                    Bravo, Steve! Truly well-written and thoughtful advice to us all! Thanks, Kathy ... From: Steven H. Miller To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday,
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Bravo, Steve! Truly well-written and thoughtful advice to us all!

                      Thanks,
                      Kathy
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Steven H. Miller
                      To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 12:42 PM
                      Subject: Re: [BackpackGearTest] Re: EDIT ADDENDUM: Owner Review - GoLite Hex 3 - by tim todd


                      Ted and Jason:

                      Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                      Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website, and
                      I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see when
                      the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)

                      But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over the
                      past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                      which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles" involved
                      here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in the
                      online lessons.

                      Style is a very subjective call. I have noticed that every so often, a
                      new report writer just freaks out about being edited. I've seen it
                      twice in the past three weeks. It has seemed to center on a sense of
                      outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                      arbitrary.

                      It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers if a
                      couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                      since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                      editing.

                      Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                      couple of decades ago. I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                      advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:

                      a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as the
                      author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                      involved. Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you wrote
                      it that way. But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                      somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                      needs fixing... you'll find something every time. Most really good
                      writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel that
                      it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                      part with it at some point anyway.

                      b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work. Criticism
                      of your work is not criticism of you. Outright rejection of your work
                      is not rejection of you. Nobody's talking about you as a human being
                      when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag. (The first time I
                      sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                      thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                      what had happened. "I got rejected" I said. "You did not get
                      rejected!" she said very briskly. "Your script got rejected. They
                      don't know you. They've never even met you.")

                      c) This kind of writing is a job, it's not art. It's not poetry, it's
                      not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter. If
                      it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                      taking personally. But this is a job. If you were working your first
                      day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and pointed
                      to two boards you'd nailed together and said, "Hey, that joint's not
                      square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you. You'd
                      get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped you
                      out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof wouldn't
                      sit on it correctly. Writing-style is more subjective than the
                      squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                      worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about it.
                      You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                      imperfect as an editor. All we can do is try.

                      All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here.
                      It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing you,
                      just because they can. I don't know how the editors decide between
                      what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I suspect
                      that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so far.

                      Best,
                      SteveM

                      On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

                      > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                      > somewhere
                      > > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor's work
                      > > considerably.
                      > >
                      > > SteveM
                      >
                      > Not to mention the writer's...
                      >
                      > Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide,
                      > though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new version is
                      > in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed that, and
                      > as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                      >
                      > One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and units.
                      > The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has pretty
                      > comprehensive information regarding how this information should be
                      > presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                      >
                      > The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                      > documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront. It
                      > seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't internalized
                      > easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                      > would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting them
                      > carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                      >
                      > Ted.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                      >
                      >
                      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                      >
                      > ▪ Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                      >
                      > ▪ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > ▪ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > Service.
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/



                      SPONSORED LINKS Hiking sock Hiking tour Hiking vacation
                      Hiking clothes Hiking the inca trail Hiking backpack


                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                    • edwardripleyduggan
                      Steve, Looking over your articulate, insightful, and incisive response, I m really looking forward to your OR! I feel the latter part of your note goes to the
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
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                        Steve,

                        Looking over your articulate, insightful, and incisive response, I'm
                        really looking forward to your OR! I feel the latter part of your note
                        goes to the heart of the matter. I do have a few comments.

                        1. Public expressions of dismay at edits have been rather uncommon on
                        BGT. In general, those who submit ORs for the first time are either
                        grateful for the assistance in getting their review into shape, or
                        they simply don't respond. They drop out of the program. Though that's
                        often disappointing to me as an editor, the cruel truth is that they
                        were (likely enough) not a good fit for the program.

                        2. The issue of "styles" is a tough one. In point of fact, we try to
                        avoid editing style wherever possible. As an example, we often let
                        punctuation issues pass, provided that they don't interfere with ease
                        of reading. This is just as well, as I'm terrible about punctuation
                        myself. We value the variety of the voices which our contributors
                        bring to the table. However, I'm often faced with new contributors who
                        know their gear, but not how to express their opinions about it. This
                        is rather tough on all concerned.

                        3. The single biggest source of confusion lies with metric
                        conversions, and with the expression of units. The best guide to this
                        by far is to be found at the foot of the conversion page, at

                        http://www.backpackgeartest.org/convert.html

                        I would be the first to admit that this is a little buried (not
                        something over which I have control). In the next revision of the
                        Survival Guide, I hope this will be hyperlinked.

                        4. On BGT, see

                        http://www.backpackgeartest.org/lesson.php?lesson=BecomeTester&page=1

                        (linked from the homepage).

                        The Survival Guide, which is linked from several places, is at

                        http://www.backpackgeartest.org/requirements.php

                        Chapter 3 is the critical section.

                        ******


                        We are all volunteers here, and we wouldn't be editing if we didn't
                        care about both BGT and those who contribute to it. Without
                        contributors, BGT does not exist. No edit I make, or that any of the
                        editors make, is addressed to the writer as an individual. We're
                        editing the text, not the person!

                        I'm sure that there's more that I could write on this subject, but you
                        have addressed the issues admirably. Thanks.

                        Very best,

                        Ted.









                        --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Steven H. Miller
                        <metaphorce@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Ted and Jason:
                        >
                        > Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                        > Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website, and
                        > I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see when
                        > the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)
                        >
                        > But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over the
                        > past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                        > which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles" involved
                        > here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in the
                        > online lessons.
                        >
                        > Style is a very subjective call. I have noticed that every so often, a
                        > new report writer just freaks out about being edited. I've seen it
                        > twice in the past three weeks. It has seemed to center on a sense of
                        > outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                        > arbitrary.
                        >
                        > It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers if a
                        > couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                        > since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                        > editing.
                        >
                        > Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                        > couple of decades ago. I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                        > advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:
                        >
                        > a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as the
                        > author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                        > involved. Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you wrote
                        > it that way. But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                        > somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                        > needs fixing... you'll find something every time. Most really good
                        > writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel that
                        > it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                        > part with it at some point anyway.
                        >
                        > b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work. Criticism
                        > of your work is not criticism of you. Outright rejection of your work
                        > is not rejection of you. Nobody's talking about you as a human being
                        > when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag. (The first time I
                        > sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                        > thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                        > what had happened. "I got rejected" I said. "You did not get
                        > rejected!" she said very briskly. "Your script got rejected. They
                        > don't know you. They've never even met you.")
                        >
                        > c) This kind of writing is a job, it's not art. It's not poetry, it's
                        > not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter. If
                        > it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                        > taking personally. But this is a job. If you were working your first
                        > day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and pointed
                        > to two boards you'd nailed together and said, "Hey, that joint's not
                        > square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you. You'd
                        > get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped you
                        > out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof wouldn't
                        > sit on it correctly. Writing-style is more subjective than the
                        > squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                        > worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about it.
                        > You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                        > imperfect as an editor. All we can do is try.
                        >
                        > All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here.
                        > It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing you,
                        > just because they can. I don't know how the editors decide between
                        > what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I suspect
                        > that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so far.
                        >
                        > Best,
                        > SteveM
                        >
                        > On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:
                        >
                        > > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                        > > somewhere
                        > > > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the
                        editor's work
                        > > > considerably.
                        > > >
                        > > > SteveM
                        > >
                        > > Not to mention the writer's...
                        > >
                        > > Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide,
                        > > though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new version is
                        > > in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed that, and
                        > > as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                        > >
                        > > One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and units.
                        > > The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has
                        pretty
                        > > comprehensive information regarding how this information should be
                        > > presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                        > >
                        > > The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                        > > documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront. It
                        > > seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't internalized
                        > > easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                        > > would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting them
                        > > carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                        > >
                        > > Ted.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        > >
                        > > ▪  Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                        > > Â
                        > > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > Â BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Â
                        > > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                        Terms of
                        > > Service.
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Steven H. Miller
                        Ted: Well, I kinda doubt my OR is anything earthshaking. I think it s reasonably to the point, but that s all. Thanks for the Survival Guide link. It s not
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Ted:

                          Well, I kinda doubt my OR is anything earthshaking. I think it's
                          reasonably to the point, but that's all.

                          Thanks for the Survival Guide link. It's not linked from the main nav
                          bar, nor is it linked from the How To Become A Tester page, although it
                          IS linked from the Quickstart page.

                          I hope it's OK to talk about process onlist like this. I really felt
                          for those two reviewers who seemed to be bleeding so badly from being
                          edited. I figured that if these two people were hurting badly enough
                          to go public, there are probably others who are bleeding in private.
                          It felt like a little public airing of the issues - without so much of
                          the anguish - might do everyone a bit of good. (Pretty presumptuous
                          for a newbie, I admit, but have been known to pop blythly in where
                          angels fear to tread... with mixed results.)

                          I think this list and the associated website are a very cool web
                          phenomenon, and I'd like to be part of it. Obviously there's quite a
                          few others who would, too, so I thought maybe reducing some of the
                          emotional wear and tear of joining might be helpful.

                          Best,
                          SteveM


                          On Feb 3, 2006, at 1:47 PM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

                          > Steve,
                          >
                          > Looking over your articulate, insightful, and incisive response, I'm
                          > really looking forward to your OR! I feel the latter part of your note
                          > goes to the heart of the matter. I do have a few comments.
                          >
                          > 1. Public expressions of dismay at edits have been rather uncommon on
                          > BGT. In general, those who submit ORs for the first time are either
                          > grateful for the assistance in getting their review into shape, or
                          > they simply don't respond. They drop out of the program. Though that's
                          > often disappointing to me as an editor, the cruel truth is that they
                          > were (likely enough) not a good fit for the program.
                          >
                          > 2. The issue of "styles" is a tough one. In point of fact, we try to
                          > avoid editing style wherever possible. As an example, we often let
                          > punctuation issues pass, provided that they don't interfere with ease
                          > of reading. This is just as well, as I'm terrible about punctuation
                          > myself. We value the variety of the voices which our contributors
                          > bring to the table. However, I'm often faced with new contributors who
                          > know their gear, but not how to express their opinions about it. This
                          > is rather tough on all concerned.
                          >
                          > 3. The single biggest source of confusion lies with metric
                          > conversions, and with the expression of units. The best guide to this
                          > by far is to be found at the foot of the conversion page, at
                          >
                          > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/convert.html
                          >
                          > I would be the first to admit that this is a little buried (not
                          > something over which I have control). In the next revision of the
                          > Survival Guide, I hope this will be hyperlinked.
                          >
                          > 4. On BGT, see
                          >
                          > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/lesson.php?lesson=BecomeTester&page=1
                          >
                          > (linked from the homepage).
                          >
                          > The Survival Guide, which is linked from several places, is at
                          >
                          > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/requirements.php
                          >
                          > Chapter 3 is the critical section.
                          >
                          > ******
                          >
                          >
                          > We are all volunteers here, and we wouldn't be editing if we didn't
                          > care about both BGT and those who contribute to it. Without
                          > contributors, BGT does not exist. No edit I make, or that any of the
                          > editors make, is addressed to the writer as an individual. We're
                          > editing the text, not the person!
                          >
                          > I'm sure that there's more that I could write on this subject, but you
                          > have addressed the issues admirably. Thanks.
                          >
                          > Very best,
                          >
                          > Ted.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Steven H. Miller
                          > <metaphorce@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Ted and Jason:
                          > >
                          > > Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                          > > Guide.  I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website,
                          > and
                          > > I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see
                          > when
                          > > the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)
                          > >
                          > > But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over
                          > the
                          > > past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                          > > which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles"
                          > involved
                          > > here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in
                          > the
                          > > online lessons.
                          > >
                          > > Style is a very subjective call.  I have noticed that every so
                          > often, a
                          > > new report writer just freaks out about being edited.  I've seen it
                          > > twice in the past three weeks.  It has seemed to center on a sense
                          > of
                          > > outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                          > > arbitrary.
                          > >
                          > > It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers
                          > if a
                          > > couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                          > > since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                          > > editing.
                          > >
                          > > Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                          > > couple of decades ago.  I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                          > > advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:
                          > >
                          > > a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as
                          > the
                          > > author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                          > > involved.  Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you
                          > wrote
                          > > it that way.  But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                          > > somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                          > > needs fixing... you'll find something every time.  Most really good
                          > > writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel
                          > that
                          > > it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                          > > part with it at some point anyway.
                          > >
                          > > b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work. 
                          > Criticism
                          > > of your work is not criticism of you.  Outright rejection of your
                          > work
                          > > is not rejection of you.  Nobody's talking about you as a human
                          > being
                          > > when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag.   (The first
                          > time I
                          > > sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                          > > thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                          > > what had happened.  "I got rejected" I said.  "You did not get
                          > > rejected!" she said very briskly.  "Your script got rejected.  They
                          > > don't know you.  They've never even met you.")
                          > >
                          > > c)  This kind of writing is a job, it's not art.  It's not poetry,
                          > it's
                          > > not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter. 
                          > If
                          > > it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                          > > taking personally.  But this is a job.  If you were working your
                          > first
                          > > day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and
                          > pointed
                          > > to two boards you'd nailed together and said,  "Hey, that joint's
                          > not
                          > > square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you. 
                          > You'd
                          > > get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped
                          > you
                          > > out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof
                          > wouldn't
                          > > sit on it correctly.  Writing-style is more subjective than the
                          > > squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                          > > worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about
                          > it. 
                          > > You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                          > > imperfect as an editor.  All we can do is try.
                          > >
                          > > All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here. 
                          > > It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing
                          > you,
                          > > just because they can.  I don't know how the editors decide between
                          > > what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I
                          > suspect
                          > > that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so
                          > far.
                          > >
                          > > Best,
                          > > SteveM
                          > >
                          > > On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                          > > > somewhere
                          > > >  > that's accessible to new reporters?  It might ease the
                          > editor's work
                          > > >  > considerably.
                          > > >  >
                          > > >  > SteveM
                          > > >
                          > > >  Not to mention the writer's...
                          > > >
                          > > >  Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival
                          > Guide,
                          > > >  though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new
                          > version is
                          > > >  in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed
                          > that, and
                          > > >  as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                          > > >
                          > > >  One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and
                          > units.
                          > > >  The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has
                          > pretty
                          > > >  comprehensive information regarding how this information should
                          > be
                          > > >  presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                          > > >
                          > > >  The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                          > > >  documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront.
                          > It
                          > > >  seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't
                          > internalized
                          > > >  easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                          > > >  would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting
                          > them
                          > > >  carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                          > > >
                          > > >  Ted.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                          > > >
                          > > >     â–ª     Â Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                          > > > Â
                          > > >     â–ª     Â To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > > Â BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > Â
                          > > >     â–ª     Â Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                          > Terms of
                          > > > Service.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                          >
                          >
                          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                          >
                          > ▪  Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                          >  
                          > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          >  BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >  
                          > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          > Service.
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Jerry Goller
                          Excellent post, Steve! These are just general comments on the subject and not directed at anyone in particular. I ve tried to, as much as possible, avoid
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Excellent post, Steve!

                            These are just general comments on the subject and not directed at anyone in particular.

                            I've tried to, as much as possible, avoid having styles edited. I *want* different styles in reports. I can't imagine anything more boring than a few thousand cookie cutter reports. I want our readers to believe that a report they are reading could be from the person they shared a shelter with last week or the person they were talking to at the trailhead last month...or themselves, for that matter.

                            But we also have to have standards to make our reports readable and worthwhile. Certain information *must* be in there for reports to have value.

                            Editor make style *suggestions* only when they truly feel it would substantially add to the report. When they say it isn't a suggestion, but a requirement that means it is something we've discussed and decided was necessary for reports in general.

                            I'd also like to say I don't believe in micromanaging. The Editors have a tough job. I don't want to do their job. So I set down guidelines, general, to be sure, as to what I want and I let them decide how to get that.

                            I absolutely support *all* Mods and their people in their decisions. Unless I want to take over their jobs, which I don't, I don't see how it can work any other way.

                            I do, from time to time, comment on editing that seems to be more toward style than substance when I see it. It is a gentle reminder to Editors as to what I consider style and what I consider content. The content, the information, is the important part, not the report. The information is the only reason BGT exists.

                            If you feel quite strongly that it is a style issue then don't make the change. If the Editors feel quite strongly that it is a content issue and needs to be changed then they can leave it up to me and I will arbitrate it. But I am the court of last resort and am not going to second guess Editors on a daily, or weekly, or monthly basis. Don't bring it to me unless it is a deal breaker between you and BGT.

                            And when I make a decision the only discussion is if you want to follow it or leave BGT.

                            Jerry Goller
                            Publisher/Owner
                            Backpackgeartest.org

                            <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/> http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.



                            _____

                            From: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steven H.Miller
                            Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 10:42 AM
                            To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [BackpackGearTest] Re: EDIT ADDENDUM: Owner Review - GoLite Hex 3 - by tim todd


                            Ted and Jason:

                            Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                            Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website, and
                            I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see when
                            the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)

                            But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over the
                            past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                            which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles" involved
                            here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in the
                            online lessons.

                            Style is a very subjective call. I have noticed that every so often, a
                            new report writer just freaks out about being edited. I've seen it
                            twice in the past three weeks. It has seemed to center on a sense of
                            outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                            arbitrary.

                            It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers if a
                            couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                            since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                            editing.

                            Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                            couple of decades ago. I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                            advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:

                            a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as the
                            author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                            involved. Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you wrote
                            it that way. But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                            somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                            needs fixing... you'll find something every time. Most really good
                            writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel that
                            it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                            part with it at some point anyway.

                            b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work. Criticism
                            of your work is not criticism of you. Outright rejection of your work
                            is not rejection of you. Nobody's talking about you as a human being
                            when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag. (The first time I
                            sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                            thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                            what had happened. "I got rejected" I said. "You did not get
                            rejected!" she said very briskly. "Your script got rejected. They
                            don't know you. They've never even met you.")

                            c) This kind of writing is a job, it's not art. It's not poetry, it's
                            not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter. If
                            it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                            taking personally. But this is a job. If you were working your first
                            day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and pointed
                            to two boards you'd nailed together and said, "Hey, that joint's not
                            square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you. You'd
                            get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped you
                            out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof wouldn't
                            sit on it correctly. Writing-style is more subjective than the
                            squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                            worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about it.
                            You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                            imperfect as an editor. All we can do is try.

                            All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here.
                            It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing you,
                            just because they can. I don't know how the editors decide between
                            what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I suspect
                            that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so far.

                            Best,
                            SteveM

                            On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

                            > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                            > somewhere
                            > > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor's work
                            > > considerably.
                            > >
                            > > SteveM
                            >
                            > Not to mention the writer's...
                            >
                            > Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide,
                            > though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new version is
                            > in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed that, and
                            > as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                            >
                            > One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and units.
                            > The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has pretty
                            > comprehensive information regarding how this information should be
                            > presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                            >
                            > The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                            > documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront. It
                            > seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't internalized
                            > easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                            > would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting them
                            > carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                            >
                            > Ted.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                            >
                            >
                            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            >
                            > ▪ Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                            >
                            > ▪ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > ▪ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            > Service.
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                            Hiking <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Hiking+clothes&w1=Hiking+sock&w2=Hiking+tour&w3=Hiking+vacation&w4=Hiking+clothes&w5=Hiking+the+inca+trail&w6=Hiking+backpack&c=6&s=123&.sig=WrmBQDpNvAms02hrqEWL9w> clothes Hiking <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Hiking+the+inca+trail&w1=Hiking+sock&w2=Hiking+tour&w3=Hiking+vacation&w4=Hiking+clothes&w5=Hiking+the+inca+trail&w6=Hiking+backpack&c=6&s=123&.sig=bz8AqFG05H-XH09jUZRJNA> the inca trail Hiking <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Hiking+backpack&w1=Hiking+sock&w2=Hiking+tour&w3=Hiking+vacation&w4=Hiking+clothes&w5=Hiking+the+inca+trail&w6=Hiking+backpack&c=6&s=123&.sig=tAm1RFs4a8iRVKkXahBWZQ> backpack

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                          • Jerry Goller
                            I d also like to say the BGT is a work in progress. We re always interested in ideas. May not take them, of course, but always interested...... ;o) Jerry
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
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                              I'd also like to say the BGT is a work in progress. We're always interested in ideas. May not take them, of course, but always interested...... ;o)

                              Jerry

                              <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/> http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.



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                              From: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steven H.Miller
                              Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 3:44 PM
                              To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [BackpackGearTest] Editing protocols WAS: EDIT ADDENDUM: Owner Review...


                              Ted:

                              Well, I kinda doubt my OR is anything earthshaking. I think it's
                              reasonably to the point, but that's all.

                              Thanks for the Survival Guide link. It's not linked from the main nav
                              bar, nor is it linked from the How To Become A Tester page, although it
                              IS linked from the Quickstart page.

                              I hope it's OK to talk about process onlist like this. I really felt
                              for those two reviewers who seemed to be bleeding so badly from being
                              edited. I figured that if these two people were hurting badly enough
                              to go public, there are probably others who are bleeding in private.
                              It felt like a little public airing of the issues - without so much of
                              the anguish - might do everyone a bit of good. (Pretty presumptuous
                              for a newbie, I admit, but have been known to pop blythly in where
                              angels fear to tread... with mixed results.)

                              I think this list and the associated website are a very cool web
                              phenomenon, and I'd like to be part of it. Obviously there's quite a
                              few others who would, too, so I thought maybe reducing some of the
                              emotional wear and tear of joining might be helpful.

                              Best,
                              SteveM


                              On Feb 3, 2006, at 1:47 PM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

                              > Steve,
                              >
                              > Looking over your articulate, insightful, and incisive response, I'm
                              > really looking forward to your OR! I feel the latter part of your note
                              > goes to the heart of the matter. I do have a few comments.
                              >
                              > 1. Public expressions of dismay at edits have been rather uncommon on
                              > BGT. In general, those who submit ORs for the first time are either
                              > grateful for the assistance in getting their review into shape, or
                              > they simply don't respond. They drop out of the program. Though that's
                              > often disappointing to me as an editor, the cruel truth is that they
                              > were (likely enough) not a good fit for the program.
                              >
                              > 2. The issue of "styles" is a tough one. In point of fact, we try to
                              > avoid editing style wherever possible. As an example, we often let
                              > punctuation issues pass, provided that they don't interfere with ease
                              > of reading. This is just as well, as I'm terrible about punctuation
                              > myself. We value the variety of the voices which our contributors
                              > bring to the table. However, I'm often faced with new contributors who
                              > know their gear, but not how to express their opinions about it. This
                              > is rather tough on all concerned.
                              >
                              > 3. The single biggest source of confusion lies with metric
                              > conversions, and with the expression of units. The best guide to this
                              > by far is to be found at the foot of the conversion page, at
                              >
                              > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/convert.html
                              >
                              > I would be the first to admit that this is a little buried (not
                              > something over which I have control). In the next revision of the
                              > Survival Guide, I hope this will be hyperlinked.
                              >
                              > 4. On BGT, see
                              >
                              > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/lesson.php?lesson=BecomeTester <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/lesson.php?lesson=BecomeTester&page=1> &page=1
                              >
                              > (linked from the homepage).
                              >
                              > The Survival Guide, which is linked from several places, is at
                              >
                              > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/requirements.php
                              >
                              > Chapter 3 is the critical section.
                              >
                              > ******
                              >
                              >
                              > We are all volunteers here, and we wouldn't be editing if we didn't
                              > care about both BGT and those who contribute to it. Without
                              > contributors, BGT does not exist. No edit I make, or that any of the
                              > editors make, is addressed to the writer as an individual. We're
                              > editing the text, not the person!
                              >
                              > I'm sure that there's more that I could write on this subject, but you
                              > have addressed the issues admirably. Thanks.
                              >
                              > Very best,
                              >
                              > Ted.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Steven H. Miller
                              > <metaphorce@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Ted and Jason:
                              > >
                              > > Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                              > > Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website,
                              > and
                              > > I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see
                              > when
                              > > the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)
                              > >
                              > > But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over
                              > the
                              > > past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                              > > which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles"
                              > involved
                              > > here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in
                              > the
                              > > online lessons.
                              > >
                              > > Style is a very subjective call. I have noticed that every so
                              > often, a
                              > > new report writer just freaks out about being edited. I've seen it
                              > > twice in the past three weeks. It has seemed to center on a sense
                              > of
                              > > outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                              > > arbitrary.
                              > >
                              > > It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers
                              > if a
                              > > couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                              > > since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                              > > editing.
                              > >
                              > > Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                              > > couple of decades ago. I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                              > > advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:
                              > >
                              > > a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as
                              > the
                              > > author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                              > > involved. Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you
                              > wrote
                              > > it that way. But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                              > > somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                              > > needs fixing... you'll find something every time. Most really good
                              > > writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel
                              > that
                              > > it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                              > > part with it at some point anyway.
                              > >
                              > > b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work.
                              > Criticism
                              > > of your work is not criticism of you. Outright rejection of your
                              > work
                              > > is not rejection of you. Nobody's talking about you as a human
                              > being
                              > > when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag. (The first
                              > time I
                              > > sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                              > > thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                              > > what had happened. "I got rejected" I said. "You did not get
                              > > rejected!" she said very briskly. "Your script got rejected. They
                              > > don't know you. They've never even met you.")
                              > >
                              > > c) This kind of writing is a job, it's not art. It's not poetry,
                              > it's
                              > > not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter.
                              > If
                              > > it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                              > > taking personally. But this is a job. If you were working your
                              > first
                              > > day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and
                              > pointed
                              > > to two boards you'd nailed together and said, "Hey, that joint's
                              > not
                              > > square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you.
                              > You'd
                              > > get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped
                              > you
                              > > out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof
                              > wouldn't
                              > > sit on it correctly. Writing-style is more subjective than the
                              > > squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                              > > worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about
                              > it.
                              > > You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                              > > imperfect as an editor. All we can do is try.
                              > >
                              > > All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here.
                              > > It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing
                              > you,
                              > > just because they can. I don't know how the editors decide between
                              > > what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I
                              > suspect
                              > > that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so
                              > far.
                              > >
                              > > Best,
                              > > SteveM
                              > >
                              > > On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                              > > > somewhere
                              > > > > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the
                              > editor's work
                              > > > > considerably.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > SteveM
                              > > >
                              > > > Not to mention the writer's...
                              > > >
                              > > > Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival
                              > Guide,
                              > > > though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new
                              > version is
                              > > > in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed
                              > that, and
                              > > > as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                              > > >
                              > > > One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and
                              > units.
                              > > > The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has
                              > pretty
                              > > > comprehensive information regarding how this information should
                              > be
                              > > > presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                              > > >
                              > > > The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                              > > > documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront.
                              > It
                              > > > seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't
                              > internalized
                              > > > easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                              > > > would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting
                              > them
                              > > > carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                              > > >
                              > > > Ted.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                              > > >
                              > > > â–ª Â Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                              > > > Â
                              > > > â–ª Â To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > > Â BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Â
                              > > > â–ª Â Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                              > Terms of
                              > > > Service.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                              >
                              >
                              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Andrew Priest
                              ... Hi Steve Ahh, it is linked from the How to Become a Tester page. You will find it in the first paragraph of the Quick Start Guide and it is linked at
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 8, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                At 06:43 AM 4/02/2006, you wrote:

                                >Thanks for the Survival Guide link. It's not linked from the main nav
                                >bar, nor is it linked from the How To Become A Tester page, although it
                                >IS linked from the Quickstart page.

                                Hi Steve

                                Ahh, it is linked from the How to Become a Tester page. You will find
                                it in the first paragraph of the Quick Start Guide and it is linked
                                at
                                <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/lesson.php?lesson=BecomeTester&page=9>
                                the appropriate page of the How to Become a Tester documents.

                                Also if you log into the BackpackGearTest.org site you will find
                                under Documents. It is called "Test Requirements" which it primarily is.

                                As an aside, can you please ensure you edit (read delete the surplus
                                parts of the email you are replying to) your posts before sending to
                                the list. We ask you do this as a consideration of other users,
                                particularly digest readers.

                                Thanks
                                Andrew Priest
                                List Moderator





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Steven H. Miller
                                Andrew: In the future, I will delete the previous (the opposite is the protocol on other lists I belong to). As to the Survival Guide/Test Requirements
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 8, 2006
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                                  Andrew:

                                  In the future, I will delete the previous (the opposite is the protocol
                                  on other lists I belong to).

                                  As to the "Survival Guide/Test Requirements" pages... May I suggest
                                  (based on my own strugles as a pioneer website content creator in the
                                  mid 1990's) that settling on one name for it and always using that name
                                  -both on the website and in posts/emails - would make it easier on us
                                  newbies.

                                  Thanks,
                                  SteveM
                                • Andrew Priest
                                  ... Protocol on other lists? That is interesting. If you do a search on email etiquette you might find that your approach of (a) top posting versus bottom
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    At 03:46 AM 9/02/2006, you wrote:
                                    >Andrew:
                                    >
                                    >In the future, I will delete the previous (the opposite is the protocol
                                    >on other lists I belong to).

                                    Protocol on other lists? That is interesting. If you do a search on
                                    email etiquette you might find that your approach of (a) top posting
                                    versus bottom posting (considering people with disabilities) and (b)
                                    quoting in full all the advert details and in full all the previous
                                    posts in the thread as opposed to editing the material you are
                                    quoting to the relevant material is not consider good etiquette.

                                    I suggest you also try going on to digest and get a feel for the
                                    digest users experience. You might even be surprised. Or
                                    alternatively I am sure Roger and some of the other digest users here
                                    will be more than happy to let you know what they think of you
                                    earlier approach :-).

                                    >As to the "Survival Guide/Test Requirements" pages... May I suggest
                                    >(based on my own strugles as a pioneer website content creator in the
                                    >mid 1990's) that settling on one name for it and always using that name
                                    >-both on the website and in posts/emails - would make it easier on us
                                    >newbies.

                                    Sure, I understand your point, but it is referred to as the Survival
                                    Guide in all "newbie" related documentation and the testers who have
                                    signed up to the website seem to have had no problem finding the
                                    document. This is the first time that I am aware of since we have had
                                    the website that it has been raised as an issue. Given the website
                                    usage etc I am not going to get hung up on this one.

                                    That said I will pass your comment on to the Webmaster.

                                    Regard

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • edwardripleyduggan
                                    Historically (can one write historically in connection with such a recent phenomenon as the Internet?) the norm with replies to e-mail--and, by extension, to
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Historically (can one write "historically" in connection with such a
                                      recent phenomenon as the Internet?) the norm with replies to
                                      e-mail--and, by extension, to lists--has been to remove all
                                      superfluous material. I was online as soon as public access to the
                                      Internet (i.e. to those without government or academic affiliation)
                                      was permitted, and all the books on the subject of Internet procedures
                                      of that time mentioned trimming excess from e-mail.

                                      Though this sounds like one of those "Back when I was a lad..."
                                      stories, almost everything was command line driven, but that was OK
                                      because we were all used to DOS, if not even more "primitive"
                                      operating systems. I still like command line, in fact. The issue with
                                      e-mail is both practical (bandwidth) and procedural (it's annoying to
                                      readers who receive the digest form).

                                      My first machine had 1 MG of RAM--which marks me very much as a
                                      Johnny-come-lately, given that the really early home computers had 64
                                      k or less. I now have 50 times more RAM than I had hard-disk capacity
                                      back then. This statistic is somehow both obscurely pleasing and
                                      disturbing...

                                      Ted.

                                      Andrew wrote:

                                      > Protocol on other lists? That is interesting. If you do a search on
                                      > email etiquette you might find that your approach of (a) top posting
                                      > versus bottom posting
                                    • Andrew Priest
                                      ... Hate to tell you this Ted but I suspect I was online even before you ... academic institution. I can still remember or the stories of doom and gloom if
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        At 10:20 PM 9/02/2006, you wrote:
                                        >Historically (can one write "historically" in connection with such a
                                        >recent phenomenon as the Internet?) the norm with replies to
                                        >e-mail--and, by extension, to lists--has been to remove all
                                        >superfluous material. I was online as soon as public access to the
                                        >Internet (i.e. to those without government or academic affiliation)
                                        >was permitted, and all the books on the subject of Internet procedures
                                        >of that time mentioned trimming excess from e-mail.

                                        Hate to tell you this Ted but I suspect I was online even before you
                                        :-). I can remember vaguely pre-WWW days, but then I work for a
                                        academic institution. I can still remember or the stories of doom and
                                        gloom if business got hold of the Internet. How things have changed.
                                        Mind you I see AOL is looking to charge to have emails sent to AOL members.

                                        Andrew


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Leesa J
                                        I remember a demonstration of spednet it was an academic online board for special education teachers. We could go to the university to access information
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
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                                          I remember a demonstration of 'spednet' it was an academic 'online' board
                                          for special education teachers. We could go to the university to access
                                          information using their computers. I'm pretty sure it was 87-88. Most of
                                          the teachers couldn't understand why this was worth using - they thought it
                                          would never amount to anything. I guess I was a geek even then. Leesa

                                          On 2/9/06, Andrew Priest <apriest@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > At 10:20 PM 9/02/2006, you wrote:
                                          > >Historically (can one write "historically" in connection with such a
                                          > >recent phenomenon as the Internet?) the norm with replies to
                                          > >e-mail--and, by extension, to lists--has been to remove all
                                          > >superfluous material. I was online as soon as public access to the
                                          > >Internet (i.e. to those without government or academic affiliation)
                                          > >was permitted, and all the books on the subject of Internet procedures
                                          > >of that time mentioned trimming excess from e-mail.
                                          >
                                          > Hate to tell you this Ted but I suspect I was online even before you
                                          > :-). I can remember vaguely pre-WWW days, but then I work for a
                                          > academic institution. I can still remember or the stories of doom and
                                          > gloom if business got hold of the Internet. How things have changed.
                                          > Mind you I see AOL is looking to charge to have emails sent to AOL
                                          > members.
                                          >
                                          > Andrew
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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Brad Larson
                                          At the risk of perpetuating this thread indefinitely.... -- I remember sending my first emails in 1975 via U of Minnesota -- In 1983 had my own ATT 3b2 Unix
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
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                                            At the risk of perpetuating this thread indefinitely....

                                            -- I remember sending my first emails in 1975 via U of Minnesota
                                            -- In 1983 had my own ATT 3b2 Unix SysV computer in my home running
                                            UUCP (unix to unix copy) that allowed me to send emails


                                            Leesa J wrote:
                                            > I remember a demonstration of 'spednet' ... I'm pretty sure it was 87-88.
                                            > On 2/9/06, Andrew Priest <apriest@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >> At 10:20 PM 9/02/2006, you wrote:
                                            >>
                                            >>> Historically (can one write "historically" in connection with such a
                                            >>> recent phenomenon as the Internet?)
                                            >>>
                                            >> Hate to tell you this Ted but I suspect I was online even before you
                                            >> :-). I can remember vaguely pre-WWW days...
                                            >>
                                            >> Andrew
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                          • Steven H. Miller
                                            I can t top that (1975, that is), but I was known to frequent a notoriously raucous chat room on Peoplelink somewhere between 1983 1987. (I think... those
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
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                                              I can't top that (1975, that is), but I was known to frequent a
                                              notoriously raucous chat room on Peoplelink somewhere between 1983
                                              1987. (I think... those years are a bit hazy). It was there that the
                                              term SPAM first arose. Certain individuals had a tactic for silencing
                                              people who they found boring or intrusive in our little group. They
                                              would start quoting the Monty Python SPAM routine back and forth...
                                              they had it pre-typed so they could post far more qucikly than anyone
                                              else - until they drowned out all other conversation. (Hence, SPAM is
                                              unwanted communication that chokes the system). Those of us who were
                                              regulars would just wait this out. The interlopers would figure this
                                              was no place to pick up cybersex, and leave. Then normal conversation
                                              would resume.

                                              But seriously, folks, I had no intention of stirring up a storm. I
                                              belong to a couple of Photography oriented lists where people normally
                                              leave in the preceeding thread messages. They don't even <snip>. If
                                              it's different here, I don't mind at all. I'm perfectly flexible to
                                              local custom.

                                              As to Top-posting VS bottom posting, this is endlessly the topic of
                                              debate. I have seen nasty flame-wars erupt over the question of which
                                              practice is actually the "norm," what constitutes courtesy, and what
                                              makes something intelligible.

                                              And then there's interstitial-posting...

                                              Anyway, I hope to repost my (edited) OR soon. Back to work.

                                              SteveM


                                              On Feb 9, 2006, at 8:26 AM, Brad Larson wrote:

                                              > At the risk of perpetuating this thread indefinitely....
                                              >
                                              > -- I remember sending my first emails in 1975 via U of Minnesota
                                              > -- In 1983 had my own ATT 3b2 Unix SysV computer in my home running
                                              > UUCP (unix to unix copy) that allowed me to send emails
                                              >
                                              >


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • edwardripleyduggan
                                              This thread should probably end here, but I suspect that machine is now quite collectible!
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
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                                                This thread should probably end here, but I suspect that machine is
                                                now quite collectible!


                                                > At the risk of perpetuating this thread indefinitely....
                                                >
                                                > -- I remember sending my first emails in 1975 via U of Minnesota
                                                > -- In 1983 had my own ATT 3b2 Unix SysV computer in my home running
                                                > UUCP (unix to unix copy) that allowed me to send emails
                                                >
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