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EDIT: Owner Review - GoLite Hex 3 - by tim todd

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  • edwardripleyduggan
    Hi Tim, I ve taken over from Colleen on your edit (she s out of commission for now). I ve looked over this carefully, and while I think this is a potentially
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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      Hi Tim,

      I've taken over from Colleen on your edit (she's out of commission for
      now). I've looked over this carefully, and while I think this is a
      potentially interesting review, it does have some way to go. Tents are
      notoriously tough to describe, as they are deceptively complex artifacts.

      I have added just a few edits to your "summary" section because I'd
      like you to work on this a little more before giving it a full edit.
      There's so much information there that should really be in the main
      body of the review. For example, you use snow stakes. These are
      presumably not those supplied with the tent? This is information which
      should really be with the section on pitching (not present). Are the
      supplied stakes of any use?

      The same caveat applies to many of your observations in this section.
      There is much that should have been described in the field experiences
      section (e.g. the need to tap the tent wall before opening). The
      summary should be just that -- a short recap of the stated facts,
      perhaps with a few short pros and cons -- rather than an extensive
      section, introducing data that's not been previously mentioned.

      Have a shot at licking this review into shape. Please repost (using
      REPOST at the beginning of the subject line) when you have finished.
      It may be, though, that you need a little more assistance than I can
      give you, in which case I'd strongly recommend the BGT mentoring program.

      Best,

      Ted.

      BGT OR EDITOR


      ### EDIT: This may just have got cut off somehow, but the heading
      should read

      Owner review GoLite Hex 3 tent

      Review date: [whatever it is]



      Tester Biography as 8-Dec-05

      Tim Todd
      Kingston, WA – USA Gender: Male Height: 5' 11" (1.8 m)
      tim@... Age: 42 Weight: 182 lb (82.5 kg)

      Backpacking Background:
      I have been backpacking since 1969. Though I do camp in summer, it is
      usually
      too
      hot for me. I write a camping column in our local paper every month
      that focuses
      primarily
      on lightweight and efficient backpacking. Depending on the party and
      season my
      pack can
      weigh from 7lbs to 26lbs

      ### EDIT: 7 lb to 26 lb (metric conversions in kg here, please)

      with provisions. My two Australian Shepherds always
      hike with
      me. I have worked with WTA building and maintaining trails. At the
      very least,
      every
      Sunday is reserved for a wilderness hike where daily life is not
      allowed to
      interrupt.

      Reviewed Product:
      GOLITE HEX 3 TENT
      • Manufacturer: Golite

      ### EDIT: When in lower case, the firm calls itself GoLite


      • www.golite.com
      • Purchase Year: Fall 2002

      SPECIFICATIONS:
      4-season, 3-person Height: 66" (168 cm) Area: 65 sq ft (6m2)


      ### EDIT: For consistency 65 sq m

      Weight: 47oz (2.9lb / 1332g), with pole and 12 tent stakes.
      Actual Weight: 45oz (2.8lb / 1275g), with pole and 12 tent stakes.
      Material: SiLite, (Silicone Impregnated Ripstop Nylon)

      ### EDIT: In the section above, please leave a space between the
      number and the unit, e.g. 47 oz. Call the first weight "Manufacturer's
      stated weight" or something of the kind.

      Do you have the MSRP? This should be listed if available, in the form

      MSRP: $[whatever it is] US

      If not available, state "n/a" Please don't use retailer prices,
      though, just GoLite's.

      ########


      FEATURES:
      • Waterproof
      • Hexagonal shape sheds elements
      • Adjustable Easton aluminum pole
      • Top Loop
      • 2 Large Roof Vents
      • Door Zipper
      • Reflective Stake Out Loops
      • Floorless Design
      • 9 "Y" Stakes
      • SiLite Stow Sack

      THE MANUFACTURER'S DESCRIPTION:
      "Ultra-lite, expedition-ready, and simple to pitch, the Hex 3 is a
      model of
      backcountry
      versatility! This 4-season teepee-style shelter sheds wind and weather
      brilliantly and can
      be used by itself, with the Hex 3 Floor, or with the Hex 3 Nest inner
      bug tent.
      You can
      pitch it with the micro-adjustable Easton® aluminum pole included,
      over a paddle
      or ski
      pole, or hang it from a branch via its top loop. Dual roof vents provide
      excellent airflow,
      and reflective stake out loops keep you from tripping in the middle of the
      night."


      PRODUCT DESCRIPTION:
      The Hex 3 is a versatile ultra-lite, expedition single walled-shelter.
      It is
      constructed in the
      teepee design allowing it to handle nearly any weather condition. The
      Hex 3 can
      be
      pitched with or without a pole.

      ### EDIT: I'd like to see this section expanded, please. While you
      have the manufacturer description, this is never a substitute for a
      detailed owner description.


      Field Information:
      LOCATIONS USED:
      • Olympic National Forest, Washington State
      o Terrain varies from snow to rocky.
      • Bitterroot National Forest, Montana
      o The terrain was 8 inches of snow.
      • Mt. Hood, Oregon
      o Terrain was either snow or soft soil.

      ### EDIT: I need temperature and elevation data here also.

      REVIEWS:
      First Use:

      Once I was satisfied and confident about the Hex 3, my wife, two dogs
      and I
      ventured
      into the wilderness on a partly sunny day. The tent setup just like at
      home. My
      wife was
      happy though concerned about the "no floor" feature. I use tarps a lot
      when
      camping solo
      and the Hex 3 was meant to bridge a gap between tent and tarp that my
      wife would
      approve of since she prefers a tent. She was happily surprised. That
      we all had
      more than
      enough room and we all slept comfortably.
      However, she still prefers a traditional tent with "no-seeum" mesh and
      this
      meant
      purchasing the Hex 3 Nest Inner Tent that is all mesh with a floor and an
      additional 2
      pounds 6 ounces to the weight of the entire Hex 3 package.

      ### EDIT: 2 lb 6 oz (metric conversion)

      ### EDIT: It's OK to mention the inner tent purchase as an option you
      pursued, but I'd be careful to focus the review on the primary
      subject, the Hex 3 itself.


      All in all it's a
      small price to
      pay to keep my significant other happy.

      In an effort to compromise in the weight
      category,
      we now use the Golite Trig 2 shelter.


      ### EDIT: Omit the sentence above, as you aren't reviweing the Trig 2.
      This doesn't add to the review, but confuses it.


      I usually reach for the Hex 3 when
      traveling with
      friends and in the winter.



      Second Use and Beyond:

      I am a believer in the teepee design. Its ability to offer height and huge
      floor space is
      perfect for my camping needs consisting of canines.


      ### EDIT: "...perfect for camping with my dogs." reads better


      The cone shape is ideal for
      shedding
      any kind of weather one might encounter without the need to determine what
      direction it
      should be pitched. Heavy winds can consume it from any point leaving no or
      little effect to
      the tent.

      ### EDIT: "Consume" is not the correct word here. Maybe "Heavy winds
      may blow from any direction with little or no effect on the tent"


      The Hex 3 has become my winter and foul weather tent because of its
      durability,
      functionality, and weight. Because the Hex 3 is basically a tarp I
      have been
      unlimited in
      how or where it is set up.



      ### EDIT: Reading the above sentence, it's not clear to me why you
      should necessarily have hugely more options than a tent. Perhaps you
      could elaborate on this a little. "Unlimited" is a bit too broad a
      claim, perhaps?


      This shelter is single-walled. What this means is that it does collect
      condensation
      easily. Though the two large vents at the top help some, in order to be
      effective, they need
      to be even larger.

      ### EDIT: "...they would need to be even larger"

      I am not bothered by condensation; it is nature and part of
      the
      experience.

      ### EDIT: This seems a little broad. I have slept in tents, even
      single wall, where condensation was not present. Maybe "I am not
      bothered by condensation which occurs in the Hex 3 as in many other
      single-wall shelters."


      One thing I can say is that no matter how wet, windy, or snow packed
      my
      outings became this tent as never put me in a dangerous position by
      allowing any
      of those
      elements inside. Condensation has never dripped on me, water has never
      filled
      the floor,
      and snow has never crept inside – With the exception of what my dogs
      tracked
      inside.

      ### EDIT: "...and snow has never entered, other than what my dogs
      tracked in."


      That said I feel it important to relay an experiment I did at my
      house. A heavy
      rainstorm blew in a year or so ago that lasted three days with winds
      at 45 – 50
      mph

      ### EDIT: Just leave it at the single number with such a narrow range
      "...at about 50 mph (80 kph)."

      I set
      up my tarp and the Hex 3 side by side as the storm began and watch it

      ### EDIT: "watched it"


      pound both
      shelters for its duration. It amazed me to find that the tarp out
      performed


      ### EDIT: outperformed

      the
      Hex 3.
      There was a good inch of water in various puddles on the Hex 3 floor
      whereas the
      ground
      under the tarp was completely dry.
      After reporting this discovery to Golite they asked me to return the
      Hex 3 and
      they
      sent me a new one within a week. I was impressed with their service.
      Since then
      I have
      camped in the same situation as my test and in both cases the Hex 3 was
      watertight this
      time.

      ### EDIT: Missing from this review are some details that I, as a
      reader, would really like to know. Probably most noteworthy is "How
      easily does this tent pitch?" As you are using it as a four-season
      shelter, this is iomportant. In hard conditions (high winds, cold
      temperatures) a complex shelter can be positively dangerous. Also,
      what pitching procedure do you use? Have you found any tricks to make
      it faster and easier? How long does it take, now you have some
      experience?

      I'd also like to read how the tent performed in the various locations
      and conditions you describe at the outset.

      #######



      In Summary:
      Is the Hex 3 the perfect shelter? No shelter made today can make that
      claim
      yet.

      ### EDIT: I don't think any shelter will ever be able to make that
      claim, except perhaps for some designed for a very narrow set of
      conditions!


      Is it
      for everyone? No. If given a chance it would appeal to more hikers
      though. Does
      it function
      as it was intended? A definite YES! All too often we categorize
      everything as
      positive or
      negative. I don't like doing that because in a lot of cases a person's
      con is
      actually
      another's pro. I will list a few traits in given situations so that a
      person can
      make an
      educated decision about this product.
      It is especially vital to realize that lightweight gear demands
      knowledgeable
      responsibility
      of how, when, and where the gear can be used. The Golite Hex 3 is
      lightweight
      gear so use
      caution and respect for nature when using this shelter. As with all single
      walled shelters
      the Hex 3 works best when a person understands the nature of
      condensation so I
      would
      highly recommend studying this subject. I have tried to list
      everything I have
      experienced
      in this shelter but I may have forgotten something. If so, I am sorry.

      A Warm Clear Night:
      • It's nice, sleep outside and watch the stars.
      • There won't be any condensation.
      • Airflow will be great so it will match what is outside.
      • There is no bug netting so if this is a concern you will need the
      Hex 3 Nest.
      • The optional Hex 3 Nest is awesome on clear nights. There is a
      360-degree view
      of
      the surroundings and protection from insects.

      Early In The Morning:
      • As long as an individual has not camped in a low stagnate area or
      near water
      there
      will be no or very little condensation.

      Wet Night:
      • There will be some condensation so camp and sleep in a way that will
      minimize
      it.
      Ventilation, ventilation, ventilation.
      • Remember the tent is a cone shape and when the door is unzipped the
      center of
      the
      tent is exposed to rain.

      Snow:
      • Condensation is a given but fortunately it is frozen and will only
      be ice
      crystal that
      can be shaken off in the morning.
      • Remember the tent is a cone shape, when the door is unzipped, which
      is bottom
      to
      top; the center of the tent is exposed to snow.
      • Tap the side of the tent to let snow slide down before opening the door.

      ### EDIT: The sentence beginning "tap" seems simply an extension of
      the previous and should not be separately bulletted.

      • Wide snow stake or snow anchors are imperative in setting the tent up.
      • It is a single walled shelter, there is absolutely no insulating
      value to the
      tent – It will
      be cold unless the proper gear is utilized.

      ### EDIT: While it is true that the walls of a single-wall tent have
      little insulating value, even a mesh tent will retain some degree of
      warmth. This is not "insulation" per se, but rather the fact that the
      tent prevents dissipation of heat by radiation and convection. More
      crucial to the differential between inside and outside, in my
      experience, is the volume of the tent and how windproof the fabric is.
      I would drop this line.


      • The optional Hex 3 Floor works wonders, I highly recommend it.
    • edwardripleyduggan
      To clarify one edit (on re-reading I thought this unclear) ***** PRODUCT DESCRIPTION: The Hex 3 is a versatile ultra-lite, expedition single walled-shelter. It
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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        To clarify one edit (on re-reading I thought this unclear)

        *****

        PRODUCT DESCRIPTION:
        The Hex 3 is a versatile ultra-lite, expedition single walled-shelter.
        It is
        constructed in the
        teepee design allowing it to handle nearly any weather condition. The
        Hex 3 can
        be
        pitched with or without a pole.

        ### EDIT: I'd like to see this section expanded, please. While you
        have the manufacturer description, this is never a substitute for a
        detailed owner description.


        *****

        What I am asking for here is a physical description of the tent,
        discussing (not necessarily in vast detail) the pole system (and how
        it is set up without poles), guying, fabric, construction, etc. You
        have some of this (the vents for example) but reading this I don't
        have a clear sense of, for example, how the door operates, a pretty
        basic pice of info.
      • nivaun
        So, why am I writing the review when someone else can do it better? It s a waste of time. I don t see where my review needs any improvement.
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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          So, why am I writing the review when someone else can do it better? It's a waste of time. I
          don't see where my review needs any improvement.
        • Jerry Goller
          Perhaps it is a waste of your time, Tim. Writing reports to our standards can prove to be pretty inconvenient. To be quite honest, the important part is that
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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            Perhaps it is a waste of your time, Tim. Writing reports to our standards
            can prove to be pretty inconvenient.

            To be quite honest, the important part is that your editor feels your report
            needs improvement.

            As far as why you are writing the review...only you know that answer.

            If you are unwilling to make the requested edits or don't want to waste your
            time on them then perhaps you should rethink this whole write reports for
            BGT thing......

            Jerry

            <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/> http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the
            most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.



            _____

            From: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nivaun
            Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 9:42 AM
            To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [BackpackGearTest] Re: EDIT ADDENDUM: Owner Review - GoLite Hex 3 -
            by tim todd


            So, why am I writing the review when someone else can do it better? It's a
            waste of time. I
            don't see where my review needs any improvement.






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          • edwardripleyduggan
            Hi Tim, As I wrote recently on this list, the role of the editor on BGT (as with any form of editorial work) is not adversarial, although I realize it s not
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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              Hi Tim,

              As I wrote recently on this list, the role of the editor on BGT (as
              with any form of editorial work) is not adversarial, although I
              realize it's not that comfortable to have one's writing dissected. You
              should realize that all BGT reviews and test reports are carefully
              peer-edited. It's a crucial part of the process.

              Why? BGT is, in effect, a publication, and we have certain house
              styles and standards. These aren't always obvious or intuitive. Even
              the best report writers among us make mistakes, me no less than others.

              It doesn't give me any pleasure to take an hour or two out of my day
              carefully correcting a submission. Your review has a number of
              substantial defects in form and substance that I addressed. If you
              work to correct them, you will have created something worthwhile, as
              well as showing the sense of responsibility we require for gear testing.

              Best,

              Ted.


              --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "nivaun" <tim@...> wrote:
              >
              > So, why am I writing the review when someone else can do it better?
              It's a waste of time. I
              > don't see where my review needs any improvement.
              >
            • Steven H. Miller
              Are these house styles and standards delineated in writing somewhere that s accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor s work considerably.
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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                Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing somewhere
                that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor's work
                considerably.

                SteveM


                On Feb 2, 2006, at 3:41 PM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

                > Hi Tim,
                >
                > As I wrote recently on this list, the role of the editor on BGT (as
                > with any form of editorial work) is not adversarial, although I
                > realize it's not that comfortable to have one's writing dissected. You
                > should realize that all BGT reviews and test reports are carefully
                > peer-edited. It's a crucial part of the process.
                >
                > Why? BGT is, in effect, a publication, and we have certain house
                > styles and standards. These aren't always obvious or intuitive. Even
                > the best report writers among us make mistakes, me no less than
                > others.
                >
                > It doesn't give me any pleasure to take an hour or two out of my day
                > carefully correcting a submission. Your review has a number of
                > substantial defects in form and substance that I addressed. If you
                > work to correct them, you will have created something worthwhile, as
                > well as showing the sense of responsibility we require for gear
                > testing.
                >
                > Best,
                >
                > Ted.
                >
                >
                > --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "nivaun" <tim@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > So, why am I writing the review when someone else can do it better?
                > It's a waste of time. I
                > > don't see where my review needs any improvement.
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                >
                >
                >
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                > Hiking sock
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              • Jason Boyle
                ... somewhere ... Steve and others, They best advice that I can give you as a veteran tester would be to watch the list read what others edits are, and take a
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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                  --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Steven H. Miller
                  <metaphorce@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                  somewhere
                  > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor's work
                  > considerably.
                  >
                  > SteveM

                  Steve and others,

                  They best advice that I can give you as a veteran tester would be to
                  watch the list read what others edits are, and take a look at some of
                  the reports on the web site. Also when you joined you should have
                  received a link to the survival guide which while not perfect outlines
                  what is expected in a report.

                  If you are looking for reports to get an idea of the content that is
                  required I would start with the editors of this group. Roger Caffin,
                  Pam Wyant, Colleen Porter and others.

                  We don't want to change peoples style of writing, but do want to make
                  sure the content of the report meets the requirements. Additionally
                  there is a mentoring program where your mentor can help you with your
                  report so that it will go through the editing process on this list
                  much easier.

                  Jason B
                  Veteran Tester
                • edwardripleyduggan
                  ... Not to mention the writer s... Jason s post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide, though a little out of date for a few minor details (a
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
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                    > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing somewhere
                    > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor's work
                    > considerably.
                    >
                    > SteveM

                    Not to mention the writer's...

                    Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide,
                    though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new version is
                    in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed that, and
                    as both a tester and an editor I agree.

                    One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and units.
                    The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has pretty
                    comprehensive information regarding how this information should be
                    presented, and I consider this text indispensable.

                    The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                    documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront. It
                    seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't internalized
                    easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                    would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting them
                    carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.

                    Ted.
                  • Steven H. Miller
                    Ted and Jason: Actually, looking back through my emails, I can t find the Survival Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website, and I
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
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                      Ted and Jason:

                      Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                      Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website, and
                      I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see when
                      the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)

                      But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over the
                      past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                      which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles" involved
                      here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in the
                      online lessons.

                      Style is a very subjective call. I have noticed that every so often, a
                      new report writer just freaks out about being edited. I've seen it
                      twice in the past three weeks. It has seemed to center on a sense of
                      outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                      arbitrary.

                      It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers if a
                      couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                      since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                      editing.

                      Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                      couple of decades ago. I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                      advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:

                      a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as the
                      author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                      involved. Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you wrote
                      it that way. But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                      somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                      needs fixing... you'll find something every time. Most really good
                      writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel that
                      it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                      part with it at some point anyway.

                      b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work. Criticism
                      of your work is not criticism of you. Outright rejection of your work
                      is not rejection of you. Nobody's talking about you as a human being
                      when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag. (The first time I
                      sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                      thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                      what had happened. "I got rejected" I said. "You did not get
                      rejected!" she said very briskly. "Your script got rejected. They
                      don't know you. They've never even met you.")

                      c) This kind of writing is a job, it's not art. It's not poetry, it's
                      not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter. If
                      it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                      taking personally. But this is a job. If you were working your first
                      day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and pointed
                      to two boards you'd nailed together and said, "Hey, that joint's not
                      square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you. You'd
                      get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped you
                      out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof wouldn't
                      sit on it correctly. Writing-style is more subjective than the
                      squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                      worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about it.
                      You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                      imperfect as an editor. All we can do is try.

                      All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here.
                      It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing you,
                      just because they can. I don't know how the editors decide between
                      what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I suspect
                      that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so far.

                      Best,
                      SteveM

                      On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

                      > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                      > somewhere
                      > > that's accessible to new reporters?  It might ease the editor's work
                      > > considerably.
                      > >
                      > > SteveM
                      >
                      > Not to mention the writer's...
                      >
                      > Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide,
                      > though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new version is
                      > in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed that, and
                      > as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                      >
                      > One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and units.
                      > The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has pretty
                      > comprehensive information regarding how this information should be
                      > presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                      >
                      > The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                      > documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront. It
                      > seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't internalized
                      > easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                      > would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting them
                      > carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                      >
                      > Ted.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                      >
                      >
                      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                      >
                      > ▪  Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                      >  
                      > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      >  BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >  
                      > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > Service.
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • TheMiddleSister
                      Bravo, Steve! Truly well-written and thoughtful advice to us all! Thanks, Kathy ... From: Steven H. Miller To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday,
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Bravo, Steve! Truly well-written and thoughtful advice to us all!

                        Thanks,
                        Kathy
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Steven H. Miller
                        To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 12:42 PM
                        Subject: Re: [BackpackGearTest] Re: EDIT ADDENDUM: Owner Review - GoLite Hex 3 - by tim todd


                        Ted and Jason:

                        Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                        Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website, and
                        I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see when
                        the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)

                        But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over the
                        past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                        which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles" involved
                        here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in the
                        online lessons.

                        Style is a very subjective call. I have noticed that every so often, a
                        new report writer just freaks out about being edited. I've seen it
                        twice in the past three weeks. It has seemed to center on a sense of
                        outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                        arbitrary.

                        It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers if a
                        couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                        since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                        editing.

                        Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                        couple of decades ago. I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                        advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:

                        a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as the
                        author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                        involved. Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you wrote
                        it that way. But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                        somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                        needs fixing... you'll find something every time. Most really good
                        writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel that
                        it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                        part with it at some point anyway.

                        b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work. Criticism
                        of your work is not criticism of you. Outright rejection of your work
                        is not rejection of you. Nobody's talking about you as a human being
                        when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag. (The first time I
                        sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                        thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                        what had happened. "I got rejected" I said. "You did not get
                        rejected!" she said very briskly. "Your script got rejected. They
                        don't know you. They've never even met you.")

                        c) This kind of writing is a job, it's not art. It's not poetry, it's
                        not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter. If
                        it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                        taking personally. But this is a job. If you were working your first
                        day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and pointed
                        to two boards you'd nailed together and said, "Hey, that joint's not
                        square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you. You'd
                        get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped you
                        out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof wouldn't
                        sit on it correctly. Writing-style is more subjective than the
                        squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                        worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about it.
                        You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                        imperfect as an editor. All we can do is try.

                        All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here.
                        It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing you,
                        just because they can. I don't know how the editors decide between
                        what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I suspect
                        that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so far.

                        Best,
                        SteveM

                        On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

                        > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                        > somewhere
                        > > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor's work
                        > > considerably.
                        > >
                        > > SteveM
                        >
                        > Not to mention the writer's...
                        >
                        > Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide,
                        > though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new version is
                        > in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed that, and
                        > as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                        >
                        > One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and units.
                        > The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has pretty
                        > comprehensive information regarding how this information should be
                        > presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                        >
                        > The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                        > documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront. It
                        > seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't internalized
                        > easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                        > would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting them
                        > carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                        >
                        > Ted.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                        >
                        >
                        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        >
                        > ▪ Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                        >
                        > ▪ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > ▪ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        > Service.
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/



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                        Hiking clothes Hiking the inca trail Hiking backpack


                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • edwardripleyduggan
                        Steve, Looking over your articulate, insightful, and incisive response, I m really looking forward to your OR! I feel the latter part of your note goes to the
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Steve,

                          Looking over your articulate, insightful, and incisive response, I'm
                          really looking forward to your OR! I feel the latter part of your note
                          goes to the heart of the matter. I do have a few comments.

                          1. Public expressions of dismay at edits have been rather uncommon on
                          BGT. In general, those who submit ORs for the first time are either
                          grateful for the assistance in getting their review into shape, or
                          they simply don't respond. They drop out of the program. Though that's
                          often disappointing to me as an editor, the cruel truth is that they
                          were (likely enough) not a good fit for the program.

                          2. The issue of "styles" is a tough one. In point of fact, we try to
                          avoid editing style wherever possible. As an example, we often let
                          punctuation issues pass, provided that they don't interfere with ease
                          of reading. This is just as well, as I'm terrible about punctuation
                          myself. We value the variety of the voices which our contributors
                          bring to the table. However, I'm often faced with new contributors who
                          know their gear, but not how to express their opinions about it. This
                          is rather tough on all concerned.

                          3. The single biggest source of confusion lies with metric
                          conversions, and with the expression of units. The best guide to this
                          by far is to be found at the foot of the conversion page, at

                          http://www.backpackgeartest.org/convert.html

                          I would be the first to admit that this is a little buried (not
                          something over which I have control). In the next revision of the
                          Survival Guide, I hope this will be hyperlinked.

                          4. On BGT, see

                          http://www.backpackgeartest.org/lesson.php?lesson=BecomeTester&page=1

                          (linked from the homepage).

                          The Survival Guide, which is linked from several places, is at

                          http://www.backpackgeartest.org/requirements.php

                          Chapter 3 is the critical section.

                          ******


                          We are all volunteers here, and we wouldn't be editing if we didn't
                          care about both BGT and those who contribute to it. Without
                          contributors, BGT does not exist. No edit I make, or that any of the
                          editors make, is addressed to the writer as an individual. We're
                          editing the text, not the person!

                          I'm sure that there's more that I could write on this subject, but you
                          have addressed the issues admirably. Thanks.

                          Very best,

                          Ted.









                          --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Steven H. Miller
                          <metaphorce@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Ted and Jason:
                          >
                          > Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                          > Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website, and
                          > I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see when
                          > the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)
                          >
                          > But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over the
                          > past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                          > which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles" involved
                          > here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in the
                          > online lessons.
                          >
                          > Style is a very subjective call. I have noticed that every so often, a
                          > new report writer just freaks out about being edited. I've seen it
                          > twice in the past three weeks. It has seemed to center on a sense of
                          > outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                          > arbitrary.
                          >
                          > It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers if a
                          > couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                          > since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                          > editing.
                          >
                          > Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                          > couple of decades ago. I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                          > advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:
                          >
                          > a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as the
                          > author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                          > involved. Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you wrote
                          > it that way. But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                          > somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                          > needs fixing... you'll find something every time. Most really good
                          > writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel that
                          > it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                          > part with it at some point anyway.
                          >
                          > b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work. Criticism
                          > of your work is not criticism of you. Outright rejection of your work
                          > is not rejection of you. Nobody's talking about you as a human being
                          > when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag. (The first time I
                          > sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                          > thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                          > what had happened. "I got rejected" I said. "You did not get
                          > rejected!" she said very briskly. "Your script got rejected. They
                          > don't know you. They've never even met you.")
                          >
                          > c) This kind of writing is a job, it's not art. It's not poetry, it's
                          > not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter. If
                          > it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                          > taking personally. But this is a job. If you were working your first
                          > day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and pointed
                          > to two boards you'd nailed together and said, "Hey, that joint's not
                          > square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you. You'd
                          > get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped you
                          > out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof wouldn't
                          > sit on it correctly. Writing-style is more subjective than the
                          > squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                          > worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about it.
                          > You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                          > imperfect as an editor. All we can do is try.
                          >
                          > All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here.
                          > It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing you,
                          > just because they can. I don't know how the editors decide between
                          > what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I suspect
                          > that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so far.
                          >
                          > Best,
                          > SteveM
                          >
                          > On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:
                          >
                          > > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                          > > somewhere
                          > > > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the
                          editor's work
                          > > > considerably.
                          > > >
                          > > > SteveM
                          > >
                          > > Not to mention the writer's...
                          > >
                          > > Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide,
                          > > though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new version is
                          > > in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed that, and
                          > > as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                          > >
                          > > One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and units.
                          > > The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has
                          pretty
                          > > comprehensive information regarding how this information should be
                          > > presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                          > >
                          > > The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                          > > documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront. It
                          > > seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't internalized
                          > > easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                          > > would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting them
                          > > carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                          > >
                          > > Ted.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                          > >
                          > > ▪  Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                          > > Â
                          > > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > Â BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Â
                          > > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                          Terms of
                          > > Service.
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Steven H. Miller
                          Ted: Well, I kinda doubt my OR is anything earthshaking. I think it s reasonably to the point, but that s all. Thanks for the Survival Guide link. It s not
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Ted:

                            Well, I kinda doubt my OR is anything earthshaking. I think it's
                            reasonably to the point, but that's all.

                            Thanks for the Survival Guide link. It's not linked from the main nav
                            bar, nor is it linked from the How To Become A Tester page, although it
                            IS linked from the Quickstart page.

                            I hope it's OK to talk about process onlist like this. I really felt
                            for those two reviewers who seemed to be bleeding so badly from being
                            edited. I figured that if these two people were hurting badly enough
                            to go public, there are probably others who are bleeding in private.
                            It felt like a little public airing of the issues - without so much of
                            the anguish - might do everyone a bit of good. (Pretty presumptuous
                            for a newbie, I admit, but have been known to pop blythly in where
                            angels fear to tread... with mixed results.)

                            I think this list and the associated website are a very cool web
                            phenomenon, and I'd like to be part of it. Obviously there's quite a
                            few others who would, too, so I thought maybe reducing some of the
                            emotional wear and tear of joining might be helpful.

                            Best,
                            SteveM


                            On Feb 3, 2006, at 1:47 PM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

                            > Steve,
                            >
                            > Looking over your articulate, insightful, and incisive response, I'm
                            > really looking forward to your OR! I feel the latter part of your note
                            > goes to the heart of the matter. I do have a few comments.
                            >
                            > 1. Public expressions of dismay at edits have been rather uncommon on
                            > BGT. In general, those who submit ORs for the first time are either
                            > grateful for the assistance in getting their review into shape, or
                            > they simply don't respond. They drop out of the program. Though that's
                            > often disappointing to me as an editor, the cruel truth is that they
                            > were (likely enough) not a good fit for the program.
                            >
                            > 2. The issue of "styles" is a tough one. In point of fact, we try to
                            > avoid editing style wherever possible. As an example, we often let
                            > punctuation issues pass, provided that they don't interfere with ease
                            > of reading. This is just as well, as I'm terrible about punctuation
                            > myself. We value the variety of the voices which our contributors
                            > bring to the table. However, I'm often faced with new contributors who
                            > know their gear, but not how to express their opinions about it. This
                            > is rather tough on all concerned.
                            >
                            > 3. The single biggest source of confusion lies with metric
                            > conversions, and with the expression of units. The best guide to this
                            > by far is to be found at the foot of the conversion page, at
                            >
                            > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/convert.html
                            >
                            > I would be the first to admit that this is a little buried (not
                            > something over which I have control). In the next revision of the
                            > Survival Guide, I hope this will be hyperlinked.
                            >
                            > 4. On BGT, see
                            >
                            > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/lesson.php?lesson=BecomeTester&page=1
                            >
                            > (linked from the homepage).
                            >
                            > The Survival Guide, which is linked from several places, is at
                            >
                            > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/requirements.php
                            >
                            > Chapter 3 is the critical section.
                            >
                            > ******
                            >
                            >
                            > We are all volunteers here, and we wouldn't be editing if we didn't
                            > care about both BGT and those who contribute to it. Without
                            > contributors, BGT does not exist. No edit I make, or that any of the
                            > editors make, is addressed to the writer as an individual. We're
                            > editing the text, not the person!
                            >
                            > I'm sure that there's more that I could write on this subject, but you
                            > have addressed the issues admirably. Thanks.
                            >
                            > Very best,
                            >
                            > Ted.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Steven H. Miller
                            > <metaphorce@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Ted and Jason:
                            > >
                            > > Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                            > > Guide.  I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website,
                            > and
                            > > I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see
                            > when
                            > > the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)
                            > >
                            > > But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over
                            > the
                            > > past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                            > > which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles"
                            > involved
                            > > here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in
                            > the
                            > > online lessons.
                            > >
                            > > Style is a very subjective call.  I have noticed that every so
                            > often, a
                            > > new report writer just freaks out about being edited.  I've seen it
                            > > twice in the past three weeks.  It has seemed to center on a sense
                            > of
                            > > outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                            > > arbitrary.
                            > >
                            > > It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers
                            > if a
                            > > couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                            > > since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                            > > editing.
                            > >
                            > > Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                            > > couple of decades ago.  I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                            > > advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:
                            > >
                            > > a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as
                            > the
                            > > author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                            > > involved.  Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you
                            > wrote
                            > > it that way.  But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                            > > somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                            > > needs fixing... you'll find something every time.  Most really good
                            > > writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel
                            > that
                            > > it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                            > > part with it at some point anyway.
                            > >
                            > > b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work. 
                            > Criticism
                            > > of your work is not criticism of you.  Outright rejection of your
                            > work
                            > > is not rejection of you.  Nobody's talking about you as a human
                            > being
                            > > when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag.   (The first
                            > time I
                            > > sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                            > > thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                            > > what had happened.  "I got rejected" I said.  "You did not get
                            > > rejected!" she said very briskly.  "Your script got rejected.  They
                            > > don't know you.  They've never even met you.")
                            > >
                            > > c)  This kind of writing is a job, it's not art.  It's not poetry,
                            > it's
                            > > not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter. 
                            > If
                            > > it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                            > > taking personally.  But this is a job.  If you were working your
                            > first
                            > > day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and
                            > pointed
                            > > to two boards you'd nailed together and said,  "Hey, that joint's
                            > not
                            > > square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you. 
                            > You'd
                            > > get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped
                            > you
                            > > out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof
                            > wouldn't
                            > > sit on it correctly.  Writing-style is more subjective than the
                            > > squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                            > > worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about
                            > it. 
                            > > You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                            > > imperfect as an editor.  All we can do is try.
                            > >
                            > > All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here. 
                            > > It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing
                            > you,
                            > > just because they can.  I don't know how the editors decide between
                            > > what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I
                            > suspect
                            > > that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so
                            > far.
                            > >
                            > > Best,
                            > > SteveM
                            > >
                            > > On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                            > > > somewhere
                            > > >  > that's accessible to new reporters?  It might ease the
                            > editor's work
                            > > >  > considerably.
                            > > >  >
                            > > >  > SteveM
                            > > >
                            > > >  Not to mention the writer's...
                            > > >
                            > > >  Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival
                            > Guide,
                            > > >  though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new
                            > version is
                            > > >  in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed
                            > that, and
                            > > >  as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                            > > >
                            > > >  One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and
                            > units.
                            > > >  The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has
                            > pretty
                            > > >  comprehensive information regarding how this information should
                            > be
                            > > >  presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                            > > >
                            > > >  The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                            > > >  documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront.
                            > It
                            > > >  seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't
                            > internalized
                            > > >  easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                            > > >  would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting
                            > them
                            > > >  carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                            > > >
                            > > >  Ted.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            > > >
                            > > >     â–ª     Â Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                            > > > Â
                            > > >     â–ª     Â To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > > Â BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > Â
                            > > >     â–ª     Â Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                            > Terms of
                            > > > Service.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                            >
                            >
                            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            >
                            > ▪  Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                            >  
                            > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                            >  
                            > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            > Service.
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Jerry Goller
                            Excellent post, Steve! These are just general comments on the subject and not directed at anyone in particular. I ve tried to, as much as possible, avoid
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Excellent post, Steve!

                              These are just general comments on the subject and not directed at anyone in particular.

                              I've tried to, as much as possible, avoid having styles edited. I *want* different styles in reports. I can't imagine anything more boring than a few thousand cookie cutter reports. I want our readers to believe that a report they are reading could be from the person they shared a shelter with last week or the person they were talking to at the trailhead last month...or themselves, for that matter.

                              But we also have to have standards to make our reports readable and worthwhile. Certain information *must* be in there for reports to have value.

                              Editor make style *suggestions* only when they truly feel it would substantially add to the report. When they say it isn't a suggestion, but a requirement that means it is something we've discussed and decided was necessary for reports in general.

                              I'd also like to say I don't believe in micromanaging. The Editors have a tough job. I don't want to do their job. So I set down guidelines, general, to be sure, as to what I want and I let them decide how to get that.

                              I absolutely support *all* Mods and their people in their decisions. Unless I want to take over their jobs, which I don't, I don't see how it can work any other way.

                              I do, from time to time, comment on editing that seems to be more toward style than substance when I see it. It is a gentle reminder to Editors as to what I consider style and what I consider content. The content, the information, is the important part, not the report. The information is the only reason BGT exists.

                              If you feel quite strongly that it is a style issue then don't make the change. If the Editors feel quite strongly that it is a content issue and needs to be changed then they can leave it up to me and I will arbitrate it. But I am the court of last resort and am not going to second guess Editors on a daily, or weekly, or monthly basis. Don't bring it to me unless it is a deal breaker between you and BGT.

                              And when I make a decision the only discussion is if you want to follow it or leave BGT.

                              Jerry Goller
                              Publisher/Owner
                              Backpackgeartest.org

                              <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/> http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.



                              _____

                              From: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steven H.Miller
                              Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 10:42 AM
                              To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [BackpackGearTest] Re: EDIT ADDENDUM: Owner Review - GoLite Hex 3 - by tim todd


                              Ted and Jason:

                              Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                              Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website, and
                              I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see when
                              the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)

                              But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over the
                              past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                              which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles" involved
                              here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in the
                              online lessons.

                              Style is a very subjective call. I have noticed that every so often, a
                              new report writer just freaks out about being edited. I've seen it
                              twice in the past three weeks. It has seemed to center on a sense of
                              outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                              arbitrary.

                              It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers if a
                              couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                              since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                              editing.

                              Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                              couple of decades ago. I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                              advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:

                              a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as the
                              author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                              involved. Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you wrote
                              it that way. But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                              somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                              needs fixing... you'll find something every time. Most really good
                              writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel that
                              it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                              part with it at some point anyway.

                              b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work. Criticism
                              of your work is not criticism of you. Outright rejection of your work
                              is not rejection of you. Nobody's talking about you as a human being
                              when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag. (The first time I
                              sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                              thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                              what had happened. "I got rejected" I said. "You did not get
                              rejected!" she said very briskly. "Your script got rejected. They
                              don't know you. They've never even met you.")

                              c) This kind of writing is a job, it's not art. It's not poetry, it's
                              not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter. If
                              it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                              taking personally. But this is a job. If you were working your first
                              day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and pointed
                              to two boards you'd nailed together and said, "Hey, that joint's not
                              square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you. You'd
                              get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped you
                              out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof wouldn't
                              sit on it correctly. Writing-style is more subjective than the
                              squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                              worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about it.
                              You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                              imperfect as an editor. All we can do is try.

                              All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here.
                              It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing you,
                              just because they can. I don't know how the editors decide between
                              what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I suspect
                              that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so far.

                              Best,
                              SteveM

                              On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

                              > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                              > somewhere
                              > > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor's work
                              > > considerably.
                              > >
                              > > SteveM
                              >
                              > Not to mention the writer's...
                              >
                              > Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide,
                              > though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new version is
                              > in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed that, and
                              > as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                              >
                              > One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and units.
                              > The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has pretty
                              > comprehensive information regarding how this information should be
                              > presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                              >
                              > The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                              > documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront. It
                              > seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't internalized
                              > easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                              > would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting them
                              > carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                              >
                              > Ted.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                              >
                              >
                              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                              >
                              > ▪ Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                              >
                              > ▪ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > ▪ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                              > Service.
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                            • Jerry Goller
                              I d also like to say the BGT is a work in progress. We re always interested in ideas. May not take them, of course, but always interested...... ;o) Jerry
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I'd also like to say the BGT is a work in progress. We're always interested in ideas. May not take them, of course, but always interested...... ;o)

                                Jerry

                                <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/> http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.



                                _____

                                From: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steven H.Miller
                                Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 3:44 PM
                                To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [BackpackGearTest] Editing protocols WAS: EDIT ADDENDUM: Owner Review...


                                Ted:

                                Well, I kinda doubt my OR is anything earthshaking. I think it's
                                reasonably to the point, but that's all.

                                Thanks for the Survival Guide link. It's not linked from the main nav
                                bar, nor is it linked from the How To Become A Tester page, although it
                                IS linked from the Quickstart page.

                                I hope it's OK to talk about process onlist like this. I really felt
                                for those two reviewers who seemed to be bleeding so badly from being
                                edited. I figured that if these two people were hurting badly enough
                                to go public, there are probably others who are bleeding in private.
                                It felt like a little public airing of the issues - without so much of
                                the anguish - might do everyone a bit of good. (Pretty presumptuous
                                for a newbie, I admit, but have been known to pop blythly in where
                                angels fear to tread... with mixed results.)

                                I think this list and the associated website are a very cool web
                                phenomenon, and I'd like to be part of it. Obviously there's quite a
                                few others who would, too, so I thought maybe reducing some of the
                                emotional wear and tear of joining might be helpful.

                                Best,
                                SteveM


                                On Feb 3, 2006, at 1:47 PM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

                                > Steve,
                                >
                                > Looking over your articulate, insightful, and incisive response, I'm
                                > really looking forward to your OR! I feel the latter part of your note
                                > goes to the heart of the matter. I do have a few comments.
                                >
                                > 1. Public expressions of dismay at edits have been rather uncommon on
                                > BGT. In general, those who submit ORs for the first time are either
                                > grateful for the assistance in getting their review into shape, or
                                > they simply don't respond. They drop out of the program. Though that's
                                > often disappointing to me as an editor, the cruel truth is that they
                                > were (likely enough) not a good fit for the program.
                                >
                                > 2. The issue of "styles" is a tough one. In point of fact, we try to
                                > avoid editing style wherever possible. As an example, we often let
                                > punctuation issues pass, provided that they don't interfere with ease
                                > of reading. This is just as well, as I'm terrible about punctuation
                                > myself. We value the variety of the voices which our contributors
                                > bring to the table. However, I'm often faced with new contributors who
                                > know their gear, but not how to express their opinions about it. This
                                > is rather tough on all concerned.
                                >
                                > 3. The single biggest source of confusion lies with metric
                                > conversions, and with the expression of units. The best guide to this
                                > by far is to be found at the foot of the conversion page, at
                                >
                                > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/convert.html
                                >
                                > I would be the first to admit that this is a little buried (not
                                > something over which I have control). In the next revision of the
                                > Survival Guide, I hope this will be hyperlinked.
                                >
                                > 4. On BGT, see
                                >
                                > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/lesson.php?lesson=BecomeTester <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/lesson.php?lesson=BecomeTester&page=1> &page=1
                                >
                                > (linked from the homepage).
                                >
                                > The Survival Guide, which is linked from several places, is at
                                >
                                > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/requirements.php
                                >
                                > Chapter 3 is the critical section.
                                >
                                > ******
                                >
                                >
                                > We are all volunteers here, and we wouldn't be editing if we didn't
                                > care about both BGT and those who contribute to it. Without
                                > contributors, BGT does not exist. No edit I make, or that any of the
                                > editors make, is addressed to the writer as an individual. We're
                                > editing the text, not the person!
                                >
                                > I'm sure that there's more that I could write on this subject, but you
                                > have addressed the issues admirably. Thanks.
                                >
                                > Very best,
                                >
                                > Ted.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Steven H. Miller
                                > <metaphorce@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Ted and Jason:
                                > >
                                > > Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                                > > Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website,
                                > and
                                > > I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see
                                > when
                                > > the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)
                                > >
                                > > But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over
                                > the
                                > > past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                                > > which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles"
                                > involved
                                > > here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in
                                > the
                                > > online lessons.
                                > >
                                > > Style is a very subjective call. I have noticed that every so
                                > often, a
                                > > new report writer just freaks out about being edited. I've seen it
                                > > twice in the past three weeks. It has seemed to center on a sense
                                > of
                                > > outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                                > > arbitrary.
                                > >
                                > > It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers
                                > if a
                                > > couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                                > > since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                                > > editing.
                                > >
                                > > Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                                > > couple of decades ago. I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                                > > advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:
                                > >
                                > > a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as
                                > the
                                > > author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                                > > involved. Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you
                                > wrote
                                > > it that way. But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                                > > somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                                > > needs fixing... you'll find something every time. Most really good
                                > > writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel
                                > that
                                > > it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                                > > part with it at some point anyway.
                                > >
                                > > b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work.
                                > Criticism
                                > > of your work is not criticism of you. Outright rejection of your
                                > work
                                > > is not rejection of you. Nobody's talking about you as a human
                                > being
                                > > when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag. (The first
                                > time I
                                > > sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                                > > thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                                > > what had happened. "I got rejected" I said. "You did not get
                                > > rejected!" she said very briskly. "Your script got rejected. They
                                > > don't know you. They've never even met you.")
                                > >
                                > > c) This kind of writing is a job, it's not art. It's not poetry,
                                > it's
                                > > not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter.
                                > If
                                > > it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                                > > taking personally. But this is a job. If you were working your
                                > first
                                > > day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and
                                > pointed
                                > > to two boards you'd nailed together and said, "Hey, that joint's
                                > not
                                > > square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you.
                                > You'd
                                > > get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped
                                > you
                                > > out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof
                                > wouldn't
                                > > sit on it correctly. Writing-style is more subjective than the
                                > > squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                                > > worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about
                                > it.
                                > > You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                                > > imperfect as an editor. All we can do is try.
                                > >
                                > > All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here.
                                > > It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing
                                > you,
                                > > just because they can. I don't know how the editors decide between
                                > > what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I
                                > suspect
                                > > that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so
                                > far.
                                > >
                                > > Best,
                                > > SteveM
                                > >
                                > > On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                                > > > somewhere
                                > > > > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the
                                > editor's work
                                > > > > considerably.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > SteveM
                                > > >
                                > > > Not to mention the writer's...
                                > > >
                                > > > Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival
                                > Guide,
                                > > > though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new
                                > version is
                                > > > in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed
                                > that, and
                                > > > as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                                > > >
                                > > > One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and
                                > units.
                                > > > The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has
                                > pretty
                                > > > comprehensive information regarding how this information should
                                > be
                                > > > presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                                > > >
                                > > > The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                                > > > documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront.
                                > It
                                > > > seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't
                                > internalized
                                > > > easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                                > > > would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting
                                > them
                                > > > carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                                > > >
                                > > > Ted.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                                > > >
                                > > >
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                                > > > Service.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
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                                >
                                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                SPONSORED LINKS
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                                Hiking <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Hiking+clothes&w1=Hiking+sock&w2=Hiking+tour&w3=Hiking+vacation&w4=Hiking+clothes&w5=Hiking+the+inca+trail&w6=Hiking+backpack&c=6&s=123&.sig=WrmBQDpNvAms02hrqEWL9w> clothes Hiking <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Hiking+the+inca+trail&w1=Hiking+sock&w2=Hiking+tour&w3=Hiking+vacation&w4=Hiking+clothes&w5=Hiking+the+inca+trail&w6=Hiking+backpack&c=6&s=123&.sig=bz8AqFG05H-XH09jUZRJNA> the inca trail Hiking <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Hiking+backpack&w1=Hiking+sock&w2=Hiking+tour&w3=Hiking+vacation&w4=Hiking+clothes&w5=Hiking+the+inca+trail&w6=Hiking+backpack&c=6&s=123&.sig=tAm1RFs4a8iRVKkXahBWZQ> backpack

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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Andrew Priest
                                ... Hi Steve Ahh, it is linked from the How to Become a Tester page. You will find it in the first paragraph of the Quick Start Guide and it is linked at
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 8, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  At 06:43 AM 4/02/2006, you wrote:

                                  >Thanks for the Survival Guide link. It's not linked from the main nav
                                  >bar, nor is it linked from the How To Become A Tester page, although it
                                  >IS linked from the Quickstart page.

                                  Hi Steve

                                  Ahh, it is linked from the How to Become a Tester page. You will find
                                  it in the first paragraph of the Quick Start Guide and it is linked
                                  at
                                  <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/lesson.php?lesson=BecomeTester&page=9>
                                  the appropriate page of the How to Become a Tester documents.

                                  Also if you log into the BackpackGearTest.org site you will find
                                  under Documents. It is called "Test Requirements" which it primarily is.

                                  As an aside, can you please ensure you edit (read delete the surplus
                                  parts of the email you are replying to) your posts before sending to
                                  the list. We ask you do this as a consideration of other users,
                                  particularly digest readers.

                                  Thanks
                                  Andrew Priest
                                  List Moderator





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Steven H. Miller
                                  Andrew: In the future, I will delete the previous (the opposite is the protocol on other lists I belong to). As to the Survival Guide/Test Requirements
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Feb 8, 2006
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                                    Andrew:

                                    In the future, I will delete the previous (the opposite is the protocol
                                    on other lists I belong to).

                                    As to the "Survival Guide/Test Requirements" pages... May I suggest
                                    (based on my own strugles as a pioneer website content creator in the
                                    mid 1990's) that settling on one name for it and always using that name
                                    -both on the website and in posts/emails - would make it easier on us
                                    newbies.

                                    Thanks,
                                    SteveM
                                  • Andrew Priest
                                    ... Protocol on other lists? That is interesting. If you do a search on email etiquette you might find that your approach of (a) top posting versus bottom
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      At 03:46 AM 9/02/2006, you wrote:
                                      >Andrew:
                                      >
                                      >In the future, I will delete the previous (the opposite is the protocol
                                      >on other lists I belong to).

                                      Protocol on other lists? That is interesting. If you do a search on
                                      email etiquette you might find that your approach of (a) top posting
                                      versus bottom posting (considering people with disabilities) and (b)
                                      quoting in full all the advert details and in full all the previous
                                      posts in the thread as opposed to editing the material you are
                                      quoting to the relevant material is not consider good etiquette.

                                      I suggest you also try going on to digest and get a feel for the
                                      digest users experience. You might even be surprised. Or
                                      alternatively I am sure Roger and some of the other digest users here
                                      will be more than happy to let you know what they think of you
                                      earlier approach :-).

                                      >As to the "Survival Guide/Test Requirements" pages... May I suggest
                                      >(based on my own strugles as a pioneer website content creator in the
                                      >mid 1990's) that settling on one name for it and always using that name
                                      >-both on the website and in posts/emails - would make it easier on us
                                      >newbies.

                                      Sure, I understand your point, but it is referred to as the Survival
                                      Guide in all "newbie" related documentation and the testers who have
                                      signed up to the website seem to have had no problem finding the
                                      document. This is the first time that I am aware of since we have had
                                      the website that it has been raised as an issue. Given the website
                                      usage etc I am not going to get hung up on this one.

                                      That said I will pass your comment on to the Webmaster.

                                      Regard

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • edwardripleyduggan
                                      Historically (can one write historically in connection with such a recent phenomenon as the Internet?) the norm with replies to e-mail--and, by extension, to
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Historically (can one write "historically" in connection with such a
                                        recent phenomenon as the Internet?) the norm with replies to
                                        e-mail--and, by extension, to lists--has been to remove all
                                        superfluous material. I was online as soon as public access to the
                                        Internet (i.e. to those without government or academic affiliation)
                                        was permitted, and all the books on the subject of Internet procedures
                                        of that time mentioned trimming excess from e-mail.

                                        Though this sounds like one of those "Back when I was a lad..."
                                        stories, almost everything was command line driven, but that was OK
                                        because we were all used to DOS, if not even more "primitive"
                                        operating systems. I still like command line, in fact. The issue with
                                        e-mail is both practical (bandwidth) and procedural (it's annoying to
                                        readers who receive the digest form).

                                        My first machine had 1 MG of RAM--which marks me very much as a
                                        Johnny-come-lately, given that the really early home computers had 64
                                        k or less. I now have 50 times more RAM than I had hard-disk capacity
                                        back then. This statistic is somehow both obscurely pleasing and
                                        disturbing...

                                        Ted.

                                        Andrew wrote:

                                        > Protocol on other lists? That is interesting. If you do a search on
                                        > email etiquette you might find that your approach of (a) top posting
                                        > versus bottom posting
                                      • Andrew Priest
                                        ... Hate to tell you this Ted but I suspect I was online even before you ... academic institution. I can still remember or the stories of doom and gloom if
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          At 10:20 PM 9/02/2006, you wrote:
                                          >Historically (can one write "historically" in connection with such a
                                          >recent phenomenon as the Internet?) the norm with replies to
                                          >e-mail--and, by extension, to lists--has been to remove all
                                          >superfluous material. I was online as soon as public access to the
                                          >Internet (i.e. to those without government or academic affiliation)
                                          >was permitted, and all the books on the subject of Internet procedures
                                          >of that time mentioned trimming excess from e-mail.

                                          Hate to tell you this Ted but I suspect I was online even before you
                                          :-). I can remember vaguely pre-WWW days, but then I work for a
                                          academic institution. I can still remember or the stories of doom and
                                          gloom if business got hold of the Internet. How things have changed.
                                          Mind you I see AOL is looking to charge to have emails sent to AOL members.

                                          Andrew


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Leesa J
                                          I remember a demonstration of spednet it was an academic online board for special education teachers. We could go to the university to access information
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I remember a demonstration of 'spednet' it was an academic 'online' board
                                            for special education teachers. We could go to the university to access
                                            information using their computers. I'm pretty sure it was 87-88. Most of
                                            the teachers couldn't understand why this was worth using - they thought it
                                            would never amount to anything. I guess I was a geek even then. Leesa

                                            On 2/9/06, Andrew Priest <apriest@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > At 10:20 PM 9/02/2006, you wrote:
                                            > >Historically (can one write "historically" in connection with such a
                                            > >recent phenomenon as the Internet?) the norm with replies to
                                            > >e-mail--and, by extension, to lists--has been to remove all
                                            > >superfluous material. I was online as soon as public access to the
                                            > >Internet (i.e. to those without government or academic affiliation)
                                            > >was permitted, and all the books on the subject of Internet procedures
                                            > >of that time mentioned trimming excess from e-mail.
                                            >
                                            > Hate to tell you this Ted but I suspect I was online even before you
                                            > :-). I can remember vaguely pre-WWW days, but then I work for a
                                            > academic institution. I can still remember or the stories of doom and
                                            > gloom if business got hold of the Internet. How things have changed.
                                            > Mind you I see AOL is looking to charge to have emails sent to AOL
                                            > members.
                                            >
                                            > Andrew
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > SPONSORED LINKS
                                            > Hiking sock<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Hiking+sock&w1=Hiking+sock&w2=Hiking+tour&w3=Hiking+vacation&w4=Hiking+clothes&w5=Hiking+the+inca+trail&w6=Hiking+backpack&c=6&s=123&.sig=U7vNs1GAXQsMdkmMejGcvg> Hiking
                                            > tour<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Hiking+tour&w1=Hiking+sock&w2=Hiking+tour&w3=Hiking+vacation&w4=Hiking+clothes&w5=Hiking+the+inca+trail&w6=Hiking+backpack&c=6&s=123&.sig=FTu67uRNdfXzYYRGjh3i0g> Hiking
                                            > vacation<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Hiking+vacation&w1=Hiking+sock&w2=Hiking+tour&w3=Hiking+vacation&w4=Hiking+clothes&w5=Hiking+the+inca+trail&w6=Hiking+backpack&c=6&s=123&.sig=8M9bAzGv1jv1caX5nQWHOg> Hiking
                                            > clothes<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Hiking+clothes&w1=Hiking+sock&w2=Hiking+tour&w3=Hiking+vacation&w4=Hiking+clothes&w5=Hiking+the+inca+trail&w6=Hiking+backpack&c=6&s=123&.sig=WrmBQDpNvAms02hrqEWL9w> Hiking
                                            > the inca trail<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Hiking+the+inca+trail&w1=Hiking+sock&w2=Hiking+tour&w3=Hiking+vacation&w4=Hiking+clothes&w5=Hiking+the+inca+trail&w6=Hiking+backpack&c=6&s=123&.sig=bz8AqFG05H-XH09jUZRJNA> Hiking
                                            > backpack<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Hiking+backpack&w1=Hiking+sock&w2=Hiking+tour&w3=Hiking+vacation&w4=Hiking+clothes&w5=Hiking+the+inca+trail&w6=Hiking+backpack&c=6&s=123&.sig=tAm1RFs4a8iRVKkXahBWZQ>
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                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Brad Larson
                                            At the risk of perpetuating this thread indefinitely.... -- I remember sending my first emails in 1975 via U of Minnesota -- In 1983 had my own ATT 3b2 Unix
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
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                                              At the risk of perpetuating this thread indefinitely....

                                              -- I remember sending my first emails in 1975 via U of Minnesota
                                              -- In 1983 had my own ATT 3b2 Unix SysV computer in my home running
                                              UUCP (unix to unix copy) that allowed me to send emails


                                              Leesa J wrote:
                                              > I remember a demonstration of 'spednet' ... I'm pretty sure it was 87-88.
                                              > On 2/9/06, Andrew Priest <apriest@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >> At 10:20 PM 9/02/2006, you wrote:
                                              >>
                                              >>> Historically (can one write "historically" in connection with such a
                                              >>> recent phenomenon as the Internet?)
                                              >>>
                                              >> Hate to tell you this Ted but I suspect I was online even before you
                                              >> :-). I can remember vaguely pre-WWW days...
                                              >>
                                              >> Andrew
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                            • Steven H. Miller
                                              I can t top that (1975, that is), but I was known to frequent a notoriously raucous chat room on Peoplelink somewhere between 1983 1987. (I think... those
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                I can't top that (1975, that is), but I was known to frequent a
                                                notoriously raucous chat room on Peoplelink somewhere between 1983
                                                1987. (I think... those years are a bit hazy). It was there that the
                                                term SPAM first arose. Certain individuals had a tactic for silencing
                                                people who they found boring or intrusive in our little group. They
                                                would start quoting the Monty Python SPAM routine back and forth...
                                                they had it pre-typed so they could post far more qucikly than anyone
                                                else - until they drowned out all other conversation. (Hence, SPAM is
                                                unwanted communication that chokes the system). Those of us who were
                                                regulars would just wait this out. The interlopers would figure this
                                                was no place to pick up cybersex, and leave. Then normal conversation
                                                would resume.

                                                But seriously, folks, I had no intention of stirring up a storm. I
                                                belong to a couple of Photography oriented lists where people normally
                                                leave in the preceeding thread messages. They don't even <snip>. If
                                                it's different here, I don't mind at all. I'm perfectly flexible to
                                                local custom.

                                                As to Top-posting VS bottom posting, this is endlessly the topic of
                                                debate. I have seen nasty flame-wars erupt over the question of which
                                                practice is actually the "norm," what constitutes courtesy, and what
                                                makes something intelligible.

                                                And then there's interstitial-posting...

                                                Anyway, I hope to repost my (edited) OR soon. Back to work.

                                                SteveM


                                                On Feb 9, 2006, at 8:26 AM, Brad Larson wrote:

                                                > At the risk of perpetuating this thread indefinitely....
                                                >
                                                > -- I remember sending my first emails in 1975 via U of Minnesota
                                                > -- In 1983 had my own ATT 3b2 Unix SysV computer in my home running
                                                > UUCP (unix to unix copy) that allowed me to send emails
                                                >
                                                >


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • edwardripleyduggan
                                                This thread should probably end here, but I suspect that machine is now quite collectible!
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  This thread should probably end here, but I suspect that machine is
                                                  now quite collectible!


                                                  > At the risk of perpetuating this thread indefinitely....
                                                  >
                                                  > -- I remember sending my first emails in 1975 via U of Minnesota
                                                  > -- In 1983 had my own ATT 3b2 Unix SysV computer in my home running
                                                  > UUCP (unix to unix copy) that allowed me to send emails
                                                  >
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