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(Revised) Owner Review - Golite Hex 3 - by tim todd

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  • nivaun
    Tester Biography as 8-Dec-05 Tim Todd Kingston, WA – USA Gender: Male Height: 5 11 (1.8 m) tim@nivaun.com Age: 42 Weight: 182 lb (82.5 kg) Backpacking
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 20, 2006
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      Tester Biography as 8-Dec-05

      Tim Todd
      Kingston, WA – USA Gender: Male Height: 5' 11" (1.8 m)
      tim@... Age: 42 Weight: 182 lb (82.5 kg)

      Backpacking Background:
      I have been backpacking since 1969. Though I do camp in summer, it is usually too
      hot for me. I write a camping column in our local paper every month that focuses primarily
      on lightweight and efficient backpacking. Depending on the party and season my pack can
      weigh from 7lbs to 26lbs with provisions. My two Australian Shepherds always hike with
      me. I have worked with WTA building and maintaining trails. At the very least, every
      Sunday is reserved for a wilderness hike where daily life is not allowed to interrupt.

      Reviewed Product:
      GOLITE HEX 3 TENT
      • Manufacturer: Golite
      • www.golite.com
      • Purchase Year: Fall 2002

      SPECIFICATIONS:
      4-season, 3-person Height: 66" (168 cm) Area: 65 sq ft (6m2)
      Weight: 47oz (2.9lb / 1332g), with pole and 12 tent stakes.
      Actual Weight: 45oz (2.8lb / 1275g), with pole and 12 tent stakes.
      Material: SiLite, (Silicone Impregnated Ripstop Nylon)

      FEATURES:
      • Waterproof
      • Hexagonal shape sheds elements
      • Adjustable Easton aluminum pole
      • Top Loop
      • 2 Large Roof Vents
      • Door Zipper
      • Reflective Stake Out Loops
      • Floorless Design
      • 9 "Y" Stakes
      • SiLite Stow Sack

      THE MANUFACTURER'S DESCRIPTION:
      "Ultra-lite, expedition-ready, and simple to pitch, the Hex 3 is a model of backcountry
      versatility! This 4-season teepee-style shelter sheds wind and weather brilliantly and can
      be used by itself, with the Hex 3 Floor, or with the Hex 3 Nest inner bug tent. You can
      pitch it with the micro-adjustable Easton® aluminum pole included, over a paddle or ski
      pole, or hang it from a branch via its top loop. Dual roof vents provide excellent airflow,
      and reflective stake out loops keep you from tripping in the middle of the night."


      PRODUCT DESCRIPTION:
      The Hex 3 is a versatile ultra-lite, expedition single walled-shelter. It is constructed in the
      teepee design allowing it to handle nearly any weather condition. The Hex 3 can be
      pitched with or without a pole.


      Field Information:
      LOCATIONS USED:
      • Olympic National Forest, Washington State
      o Terrain varies from snow to rocky.
      • Bitterroot National Forest, Montana
      o The terrain was 8 inches of snow.
      • Mt. Hood, Oregon
      o Terrain was either snow or soft soil.

      REVIEWS:
      First Use:

      All new gear I get is always tested at home first on my seven wooded acres. The
      incident was quite uneventful. All corners were staked out, the pole set in place, and there
      it was just like in the picture. Very simple except for one detail – I have yet to achieve a
      perfectly round base. Maybe my eyes are crooked, I don't know. Fortunately the lack of
      perfect roundness is only aesthetic and in no way a hindrance to its performance.
      Once I was satisfied and confident about the Hex 3, my wife, two dogs and I ventured
      into the wilderness on a partly sunny day. The tent setup just like at home. My wife was
      happy though concerned about the "no floor" feature. I use tarps a lot when camping solo
      and the Hex 3 was meant to bridge a gap between tent and tarp that my wife would
      approve of since she prefers a tent. She was happily surprised. That we all had more than
      enough room and we all slept comfortably.
      However, she still prefers a traditional tent with "no-seeum" mesh and this meant
      purchasing the Hex 3 Nest Inner Tent that is all mesh with a floor and an additional 2
      pounds 6 ounces to the weight of the entire Hex 3 package. All in all it's a small price to
      pay to keep my significant other happy. In an effort to compromise in the weight category,
      we now use the Golite Trig 2 shelter. I usually reach for the Hex 3 when traveling with
      friends and in the winter.



      Second Use and Beyond:

      I am a believer in the teepee design. Its ability to offer height and huge floor space is
      perfect for my camping needs consisting of canines. The cone shape is ideal for shedding
      any kind of weather one might encounter without the need to determine what direction it
      should be pitched. Heavy winds can consume it from any point leaving no or little effect to
      the tent.
      The Hex 3 has become my winter and foul weather tent because of its durability,
      functionality, and weight. Because the Hex 3 is basically a tarp I have been unlimited in
      how or where it is set up.
      This shelter is single-walled. What this means is that it does collect condensation
      easily. Though the two large vents at the top help some, in order to be effective, they need
      to be even larger. I am not bothered by condensation; it is nature and part of the
      experience. One thing I can say is that no matter how wet, windy, or snow packed my
      outings became this tent as never put me in a dangerous position by allowing any of those
      elements inside. Condensation has never dripped on me, water has never filled the floor,
      and snow has never crept inside – With the exception of what my dogs tracked inside.
      That said I feel it important to relay an experiment I did at my house. A heavy
      rainstorm blew in a year or so ago that lasted three days with winds at 45 – 50 mph. I set
      up my tarp and the Hex 3 side by side as the storm began and watch it pound both
      shelters for its duration. It amazed me to find that the tarp out performed the Hex 3.
      There was a good inch of water in various puddles on the Hex 3 floor whereas the ground
      under the tarp was completely dry.
      After reporting this discovery to Golite they asked me to return the Hex 3 and they
      sent me a new one within a week. I was impressed with their service. Since then I have
      camped in the same situation as my test and in both cases the Hex 3 was watertight this
      time.

      In Summary:
      Is the Hex 3 the perfect shelter? No shelter made today can make that claim yet. Is it
      for everyone? No. If given a chance it would appeal to more hikers though. Does it function
      as it was intended? A definite YES! All too often we categorize everything as positive or
      negative. I don't like doing that because in a lot of cases a person's con is actually
      another's pro. I will list a few traits in given situations so that a person can make an
      educated decision about this product.
      It is especially vital to realize that lightweight gear demands knowledgeable responsibility
      of how, when, and where the gear can be used. The Golite Hex 3 is lightweight gear so use
      caution and respect for nature when using this shelter. As with all single walled shelters
      the Hex 3 works best when a person understands the nature of condensation so I would
      highly recommend studying this subject. I have tried to list everything I have experienced
      in this shelter but I may have forgotten something. If so, I am sorry.

      A Warm Clear Night:
      • It's nice, sleep outside and watch the stars.
      • There won't be any condensation.
      • Airflow will be great so it will match what is outside.
      • There is no bug netting so if this is a concern you will need the Hex 3 Nest.
      • The optional Hex 3 Nest is awesome on clear nights. There is a 360-degree view of
      the surroundings and protection from insects.

      Early In The Morning:
      • As long as an individual has not camped in a low stagnate area or near water there
      will be no or very little condensation.

      Wet Night:
      • There will be some condensation so camp and sleep in a way that will minimize it.
      Ventilation, ventilation, ventilation.
      • Remember the tent is a cone shape and when the door is unzipped the center of the
      tent is exposed to rain.

      Snow:
      • Condensation is a given but fortunately it is frozen and will only be ice crystal that
      can be shaken off in the morning.
      • Remember the tent is a cone shape, when the door is unzipped, which is bottom to
      top; the center of the tent is exposed to snow.
      • Tap the side of the tent to let snow slide down before opening the door.
      • Wide snow stake or snow anchors are imperative in setting the tent up.
      • It is a single walled shelter, there is absolutely no insulating value to the tent – It will
      be cold unless the proper gear is utilized.
      • The optional Hex 3 Floor works wonders, I highly recommend it.
    • edwardripleyduggan
      Hi Tim, I ve taken over from Colleen on your edit (she s out of commission for now). I ve looked over this carefully, and while I think this is a potentially
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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        Hi Tim,

        I've taken over from Colleen on your edit (she's out of commission for
        now). I've looked over this carefully, and while I think this is a
        potentially interesting review, it does have some way to go. Tents are
        notoriously tough to describe, as they are deceptively complex artifacts.

        I have added just a few edits to your "summary" section because I'd
        like you to work on this a little more before giving it a full edit.
        There's so much information there that should really be in the main
        body of the review. For example, you use snow stakes. These are
        presumably not those supplied with the tent? This is information which
        should really be with the section on pitching (not present). Are the
        supplied stakes of any use?

        The same caveat applies to many of your observations in this section.
        There is much that should have been described in the field experiences
        section (e.g. the need to tap the tent wall before opening). The
        summary should be just that -- a short recap of the stated facts,
        perhaps with a few short pros and cons -- rather than an extensive
        section, introducing data that's not been previously mentioned.

        Have a shot at licking this review into shape. Please repost (using
        REPOST at the beginning of the subject line) when you have finished.
        It may be, though, that you need a little more assistance than I can
        give you, in which case I'd strongly recommend the BGT mentoring program.

        Best,

        Ted.

        BGT OR EDITOR


        ### EDIT: This may just have got cut off somehow, but the heading
        should read

        Owner review GoLite Hex 3 tent

        Review date: [whatever it is]



        Tester Biography as 8-Dec-05

        Tim Todd
        Kingston, WA – USA Gender: Male Height: 5' 11" (1.8 m)
        tim@... Age: 42 Weight: 182 lb (82.5 kg)

        Backpacking Background:
        I have been backpacking since 1969. Though I do camp in summer, it is
        usually
        too
        hot for me. I write a camping column in our local paper every month
        that focuses
        primarily
        on lightweight and efficient backpacking. Depending on the party and
        season my
        pack can
        weigh from 7lbs to 26lbs

        ### EDIT: 7 lb to 26 lb (metric conversions in kg here, please)

        with provisions. My two Australian Shepherds always
        hike with
        me. I have worked with WTA building and maintaining trails. At the
        very least,
        every
        Sunday is reserved for a wilderness hike where daily life is not
        allowed to
        interrupt.

        Reviewed Product:
        GOLITE HEX 3 TENT
        • Manufacturer: Golite

        ### EDIT: When in lower case, the firm calls itself GoLite


        • www.golite.com
        • Purchase Year: Fall 2002

        SPECIFICATIONS:
        4-season, 3-person Height: 66" (168 cm) Area: 65 sq ft (6m2)


        ### EDIT: For consistency 65 sq m

        Weight: 47oz (2.9lb / 1332g), with pole and 12 tent stakes.
        Actual Weight: 45oz (2.8lb / 1275g), with pole and 12 tent stakes.
        Material: SiLite, (Silicone Impregnated Ripstop Nylon)

        ### EDIT: In the section above, please leave a space between the
        number and the unit, e.g. 47 oz. Call the first weight "Manufacturer's
        stated weight" or something of the kind.

        Do you have the MSRP? This should be listed if available, in the form

        MSRP: $[whatever it is] US

        If not available, state "n/a" Please don't use retailer prices,
        though, just GoLite's.

        ########


        FEATURES:
        • Waterproof
        • Hexagonal shape sheds elements
        • Adjustable Easton aluminum pole
        • Top Loop
        • 2 Large Roof Vents
        • Door Zipper
        • Reflective Stake Out Loops
        • Floorless Design
        • 9 "Y" Stakes
        • SiLite Stow Sack

        THE MANUFACTURER'S DESCRIPTION:
        "Ultra-lite, expedition-ready, and simple to pitch, the Hex 3 is a
        model of
        backcountry
        versatility! This 4-season teepee-style shelter sheds wind and weather
        brilliantly and can
        be used by itself, with the Hex 3 Floor, or with the Hex 3 Nest inner
        bug tent.
        You can
        pitch it with the micro-adjustable Easton® aluminum pole included,
        over a paddle
        or ski
        pole, or hang it from a branch via its top loop. Dual roof vents provide
        excellent airflow,
        and reflective stake out loops keep you from tripping in the middle of the
        night."


        PRODUCT DESCRIPTION:
        The Hex 3 is a versatile ultra-lite, expedition single walled-shelter.
        It is
        constructed in the
        teepee design allowing it to handle nearly any weather condition. The
        Hex 3 can
        be
        pitched with or without a pole.

        ### EDIT: I'd like to see this section expanded, please. While you
        have the manufacturer description, this is never a substitute for a
        detailed owner description.


        Field Information:
        LOCATIONS USED:
        • Olympic National Forest, Washington State
        o Terrain varies from snow to rocky.
        • Bitterroot National Forest, Montana
        o The terrain was 8 inches of snow.
        • Mt. Hood, Oregon
        o Terrain was either snow or soft soil.

        ### EDIT: I need temperature and elevation data here also.

        REVIEWS:
        First Use:

        Once I was satisfied and confident about the Hex 3, my wife, two dogs
        and I
        ventured
        into the wilderness on a partly sunny day. The tent setup just like at
        home. My
        wife was
        happy though concerned about the "no floor" feature. I use tarps a lot
        when
        camping solo
        and the Hex 3 was meant to bridge a gap between tent and tarp that my
        wife would
        approve of since she prefers a tent. She was happily surprised. That
        we all had
        more than
        enough room and we all slept comfortably.
        However, she still prefers a traditional tent with "no-seeum" mesh and
        this
        meant
        purchasing the Hex 3 Nest Inner Tent that is all mesh with a floor and an
        additional 2
        pounds 6 ounces to the weight of the entire Hex 3 package.

        ### EDIT: 2 lb 6 oz (metric conversion)

        ### EDIT: It's OK to mention the inner tent purchase as an option you
        pursued, but I'd be careful to focus the review on the primary
        subject, the Hex 3 itself.


        All in all it's a
        small price to
        pay to keep my significant other happy.

        In an effort to compromise in the weight
        category,
        we now use the Golite Trig 2 shelter.


        ### EDIT: Omit the sentence above, as you aren't reviweing the Trig 2.
        This doesn't add to the review, but confuses it.


        I usually reach for the Hex 3 when
        traveling with
        friends and in the winter.



        Second Use and Beyond:

        I am a believer in the teepee design. Its ability to offer height and huge
        floor space is
        perfect for my camping needs consisting of canines.


        ### EDIT: "...perfect for camping with my dogs." reads better


        The cone shape is ideal for
        shedding
        any kind of weather one might encounter without the need to determine what
        direction it
        should be pitched. Heavy winds can consume it from any point leaving no or
        little effect to
        the tent.

        ### EDIT: "Consume" is not the correct word here. Maybe "Heavy winds
        may blow from any direction with little or no effect on the tent"


        The Hex 3 has become my winter and foul weather tent because of its
        durability,
        functionality, and weight. Because the Hex 3 is basically a tarp I
        have been
        unlimited in
        how or where it is set up.



        ### EDIT: Reading the above sentence, it's not clear to me why you
        should necessarily have hugely more options than a tent. Perhaps you
        could elaborate on this a little. "Unlimited" is a bit too broad a
        claim, perhaps?


        This shelter is single-walled. What this means is that it does collect
        condensation
        easily. Though the two large vents at the top help some, in order to be
        effective, they need
        to be even larger.

        ### EDIT: "...they would need to be even larger"

        I am not bothered by condensation; it is nature and part of
        the
        experience.

        ### EDIT: This seems a little broad. I have slept in tents, even
        single wall, where condensation was not present. Maybe "I am not
        bothered by condensation which occurs in the Hex 3 as in many other
        single-wall shelters."


        One thing I can say is that no matter how wet, windy, or snow packed
        my
        outings became this tent as never put me in a dangerous position by
        allowing any
        of those
        elements inside. Condensation has never dripped on me, water has never
        filled
        the floor,
        and snow has never crept inside – With the exception of what my dogs
        tracked
        inside.

        ### EDIT: "...and snow has never entered, other than what my dogs
        tracked in."


        That said I feel it important to relay an experiment I did at my
        house. A heavy
        rainstorm blew in a year or so ago that lasted three days with winds
        at 45 – 50
        mph

        ### EDIT: Just leave it at the single number with such a narrow range
        "...at about 50 mph (80 kph)."

        I set
        up my tarp and the Hex 3 side by side as the storm began and watch it

        ### EDIT: "watched it"


        pound both
        shelters for its duration. It amazed me to find that the tarp out
        performed


        ### EDIT: outperformed

        the
        Hex 3.
        There was a good inch of water in various puddles on the Hex 3 floor
        whereas the
        ground
        under the tarp was completely dry.
        After reporting this discovery to Golite they asked me to return the
        Hex 3 and
        they
        sent me a new one within a week. I was impressed with their service.
        Since then
        I have
        camped in the same situation as my test and in both cases the Hex 3 was
        watertight this
        time.

        ### EDIT: Missing from this review are some details that I, as a
        reader, would really like to know. Probably most noteworthy is "How
        easily does this tent pitch?" As you are using it as a four-season
        shelter, this is iomportant. In hard conditions (high winds, cold
        temperatures) a complex shelter can be positively dangerous. Also,
        what pitching procedure do you use? Have you found any tricks to make
        it faster and easier? How long does it take, now you have some
        experience?

        I'd also like to read how the tent performed in the various locations
        and conditions you describe at the outset.

        #######



        In Summary:
        Is the Hex 3 the perfect shelter? No shelter made today can make that
        claim
        yet.

        ### EDIT: I don't think any shelter will ever be able to make that
        claim, except perhaps for some designed for a very narrow set of
        conditions!


        Is it
        for everyone? No. If given a chance it would appeal to more hikers
        though. Does
        it function
        as it was intended? A definite YES! All too often we categorize
        everything as
        positive or
        negative. I don't like doing that because in a lot of cases a person's
        con is
        actually
        another's pro. I will list a few traits in given situations so that a
        person can
        make an
        educated decision about this product.
        It is especially vital to realize that lightweight gear demands
        knowledgeable
        responsibility
        of how, when, and where the gear can be used. The Golite Hex 3 is
        lightweight
        gear so use
        caution and respect for nature when using this shelter. As with all single
        walled shelters
        the Hex 3 works best when a person understands the nature of
        condensation so I
        would
        highly recommend studying this subject. I have tried to list
        everything I have
        experienced
        in this shelter but I may have forgotten something. If so, I am sorry.

        A Warm Clear Night:
        • It's nice, sleep outside and watch the stars.
        • There won't be any condensation.
        • Airflow will be great so it will match what is outside.
        • There is no bug netting so if this is a concern you will need the
        Hex 3 Nest.
        • The optional Hex 3 Nest is awesome on clear nights. There is a
        360-degree view
        of
        the surroundings and protection from insects.

        Early In The Morning:
        • As long as an individual has not camped in a low stagnate area or
        near water
        there
        will be no or very little condensation.

        Wet Night:
        • There will be some condensation so camp and sleep in a way that will
        minimize
        it.
        Ventilation, ventilation, ventilation.
        • Remember the tent is a cone shape and when the door is unzipped the
        center of
        the
        tent is exposed to rain.

        Snow:
        • Condensation is a given but fortunately it is frozen and will only
        be ice
        crystal that
        can be shaken off in the morning.
        • Remember the tent is a cone shape, when the door is unzipped, which
        is bottom
        to
        top; the center of the tent is exposed to snow.
        • Tap the side of the tent to let snow slide down before opening the door.

        ### EDIT: The sentence beginning "tap" seems simply an extension of
        the previous and should not be separately bulletted.

        • Wide snow stake or snow anchors are imperative in setting the tent up.
        • It is a single walled shelter, there is absolutely no insulating
        value to the
        tent – It will
        be cold unless the proper gear is utilized.

        ### EDIT: While it is true that the walls of a single-wall tent have
        little insulating value, even a mesh tent will retain some degree of
        warmth. This is not "insulation" per se, but rather the fact that the
        tent prevents dissipation of heat by radiation and convection. More
        crucial to the differential between inside and outside, in my
        experience, is the volume of the tent and how windproof the fabric is.
        I would drop this line.


        • The optional Hex 3 Floor works wonders, I highly recommend it.
      • edwardripleyduggan
        To clarify one edit (on re-reading I thought this unclear) ***** PRODUCT DESCRIPTION: The Hex 3 is a versatile ultra-lite, expedition single walled-shelter. It
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          To clarify one edit (on re-reading I thought this unclear)

          *****

          PRODUCT DESCRIPTION:
          The Hex 3 is a versatile ultra-lite, expedition single walled-shelter.
          It is
          constructed in the
          teepee design allowing it to handle nearly any weather condition. The
          Hex 3 can
          be
          pitched with or without a pole.

          ### EDIT: I'd like to see this section expanded, please. While you
          have the manufacturer description, this is never a substitute for a
          detailed owner description.


          *****

          What I am asking for here is a physical description of the tent,
          discussing (not necessarily in vast detail) the pole system (and how
          it is set up without poles), guying, fabric, construction, etc. You
          have some of this (the vents for example) but reading this I don't
          have a clear sense of, for example, how the door operates, a pretty
          basic pice of info.
        • nivaun
          So, why am I writing the review when someone else can do it better? It s a waste of time. I don t see where my review needs any improvement.
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            So, why am I writing the review when someone else can do it better? It's a waste of time. I
            don't see where my review needs any improvement.
          • Jerry Goller
            Perhaps it is a waste of your time, Tim. Writing reports to our standards can prove to be pretty inconvenient. To be quite honest, the important part is that
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Perhaps it is a waste of your time, Tim. Writing reports to our standards
              can prove to be pretty inconvenient.

              To be quite honest, the important part is that your editor feels your report
              needs improvement.

              As far as why you are writing the review...only you know that answer.

              If you are unwilling to make the requested edits or don't want to waste your
              time on them then perhaps you should rethink this whole write reports for
              BGT thing......

              Jerry

              <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/> http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the
              most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.



              _____

              From: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nivaun
              Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 9:42 AM
              To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [BackpackGearTest] Re: EDIT ADDENDUM: Owner Review - GoLite Hex 3 -
              by tim todd


              So, why am I writing the review when someone else can do it better? It's a
              waste of time. I
              don't see where my review needs any improvement.






              To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/




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            • edwardripleyduggan
              Hi Tim, As I wrote recently on this list, the role of the editor on BGT (as with any form of editorial work) is not adversarial, although I realize it s not
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Tim,

                As I wrote recently on this list, the role of the editor on BGT (as
                with any form of editorial work) is not adversarial, although I
                realize it's not that comfortable to have one's writing dissected. You
                should realize that all BGT reviews and test reports are carefully
                peer-edited. It's a crucial part of the process.

                Why? BGT is, in effect, a publication, and we have certain house
                styles and standards. These aren't always obvious or intuitive. Even
                the best report writers among us make mistakes, me no less than others.

                It doesn't give me any pleasure to take an hour or two out of my day
                carefully correcting a submission. Your review has a number of
                substantial defects in form and substance that I addressed. If you
                work to correct them, you will have created something worthwhile, as
                well as showing the sense of responsibility we require for gear testing.

                Best,

                Ted.


                --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "nivaun" <tim@...> wrote:
                >
                > So, why am I writing the review when someone else can do it better?
                It's a waste of time. I
                > don't see where my review needs any improvement.
                >
              • Steven H. Miller
                Are these house styles and standards delineated in writing somewhere that s accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor s work considerably.
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing somewhere
                  that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor's work
                  considerably.

                  SteveM


                  On Feb 2, 2006, at 3:41 PM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

                  > Hi Tim,
                  >
                  > As I wrote recently on this list, the role of the editor on BGT (as
                  > with any form of editorial work) is not adversarial, although I
                  > realize it's not that comfortable to have one's writing dissected. You
                  > should realize that all BGT reviews and test reports are carefully
                  > peer-edited. It's a crucial part of the process.
                  >
                  > Why? BGT is, in effect, a publication, and we have certain house
                  > styles and standards. These aren't always obvious or intuitive. Even
                  > the best report writers among us make mistakes, me no less than
                  > others.
                  >
                  > It doesn't give me any pleasure to take an hour or two out of my day
                  > carefully correcting a submission. Your review has a number of
                  > substantial defects in form and substance that I addressed. If you
                  > work to correct them, you will have created something worthwhile, as
                  > well as showing the sense of responsibility we require for gear
                  > testing.
                  >
                  > Best,
                  >
                  > Ted.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "nivaun" <tim@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > So, why am I writing the review when someone else can do it better?
                  > It's a waste of time. I
                  > > don't see where my review needs any improvement.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > SPONSORED LINKS
                  > Hiking sock
                  > Hiking tour
                  > Hiking vacation
                  > Hiking clothes
                  > Hiking the inca trail
                  > Hiking backpack
                  >
                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  >
                  > ▪  Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                  >  
                  > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  >  BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >  
                  > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > Service.
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jason Boyle
                  ... somewhere ... Steve and others, They best advice that I can give you as a veteran tester would be to watch the list read what others edits are, and take a
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Steven H. Miller
                    <metaphorce@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                    somewhere
                    > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor's work
                    > considerably.
                    >
                    > SteveM

                    Steve and others,

                    They best advice that I can give you as a veteran tester would be to
                    watch the list read what others edits are, and take a look at some of
                    the reports on the web site. Also when you joined you should have
                    received a link to the survival guide which while not perfect outlines
                    what is expected in a report.

                    If you are looking for reports to get an idea of the content that is
                    required I would start with the editors of this group. Roger Caffin,
                    Pam Wyant, Colleen Porter and others.

                    We don't want to change peoples style of writing, but do want to make
                    sure the content of the report meets the requirements. Additionally
                    there is a mentoring program where your mentor can help you with your
                    report so that it will go through the editing process on this list
                    much easier.

                    Jason B
                    Veteran Tester
                  • edwardripleyduggan
                    ... Not to mention the writer s... Jason s post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide, though a little out of date for a few minor details (a
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing somewhere
                      > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor's work
                      > considerably.
                      >
                      > SteveM

                      Not to mention the writer's...

                      Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide,
                      though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new version is
                      in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed that, and
                      as both a tester and an editor I agree.

                      One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and units.
                      The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has pretty
                      comprehensive information regarding how this information should be
                      presented, and I consider this text indispensable.

                      The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                      documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront. It
                      seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't internalized
                      easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                      would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting them
                      carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.

                      Ted.
                    • Steven H. Miller
                      Ted and Jason: Actually, looking back through my emails, I can t find the Survival Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website, and I
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Ted and Jason:

                        Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                        Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website, and
                        I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see when
                        the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)

                        But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over the
                        past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                        which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles" involved
                        here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in the
                        online lessons.

                        Style is a very subjective call. I have noticed that every so often, a
                        new report writer just freaks out about being edited. I've seen it
                        twice in the past three weeks. It has seemed to center on a sense of
                        outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                        arbitrary.

                        It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers if a
                        couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                        since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                        editing.

                        Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                        couple of decades ago. I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                        advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:

                        a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as the
                        author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                        involved. Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you wrote
                        it that way. But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                        somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                        needs fixing... you'll find something every time. Most really good
                        writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel that
                        it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                        part with it at some point anyway.

                        b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work. Criticism
                        of your work is not criticism of you. Outright rejection of your work
                        is not rejection of you. Nobody's talking about you as a human being
                        when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag. (The first time I
                        sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                        thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                        what had happened. "I got rejected" I said. "You did not get
                        rejected!" she said very briskly. "Your script got rejected. They
                        don't know you. They've never even met you.")

                        c) This kind of writing is a job, it's not art. It's not poetry, it's
                        not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter. If
                        it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                        taking personally. But this is a job. If you were working your first
                        day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and pointed
                        to two boards you'd nailed together and said, "Hey, that joint's not
                        square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you. You'd
                        get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped you
                        out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof wouldn't
                        sit on it correctly. Writing-style is more subjective than the
                        squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                        worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about it.
                        You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                        imperfect as an editor. All we can do is try.

                        All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here.
                        It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing you,
                        just because they can. I don't know how the editors decide between
                        what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I suspect
                        that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so far.

                        Best,
                        SteveM

                        On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

                        > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                        > somewhere
                        > > that's accessible to new reporters?  It might ease the editor's work
                        > > considerably.
                        > >
                        > > SteveM
                        >
                        > Not to mention the writer's...
                        >
                        > Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide,
                        > though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new version is
                        > in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed that, and
                        > as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                        >
                        > One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and units.
                        > The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has pretty
                        > comprehensive information regarding how this information should be
                        > presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                        >
                        > The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                        > documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront. It
                        > seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't internalized
                        > easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                        > would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting them
                        > carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                        >
                        > Ted.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                        >
                        >
                        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        >
                        > ▪  Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                        >  
                        > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        >  BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >  
                        > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        > Service.
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • TheMiddleSister
                        Bravo, Steve! Truly well-written and thoughtful advice to us all! Thanks, Kathy ... From: Steven H. Miller To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday,
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Bravo, Steve! Truly well-written and thoughtful advice to us all!

                          Thanks,
                          Kathy
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Steven H. Miller
                          To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 12:42 PM
                          Subject: Re: [BackpackGearTest] Re: EDIT ADDENDUM: Owner Review - GoLite Hex 3 - by tim todd


                          Ted and Jason:

                          Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                          Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website, and
                          I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see when
                          the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)

                          But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over the
                          past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                          which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles" involved
                          here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in the
                          online lessons.

                          Style is a very subjective call. I have noticed that every so often, a
                          new report writer just freaks out about being edited. I've seen it
                          twice in the past three weeks. It has seemed to center on a sense of
                          outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                          arbitrary.

                          It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers if a
                          couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                          since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                          editing.

                          Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                          couple of decades ago. I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                          advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:

                          a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as the
                          author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                          involved. Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you wrote
                          it that way. But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                          somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                          needs fixing... you'll find something every time. Most really good
                          writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel that
                          it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                          part with it at some point anyway.

                          b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work. Criticism
                          of your work is not criticism of you. Outright rejection of your work
                          is not rejection of you. Nobody's talking about you as a human being
                          when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag. (The first time I
                          sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                          thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                          what had happened. "I got rejected" I said. "You did not get
                          rejected!" she said very briskly. "Your script got rejected. They
                          don't know you. They've never even met you.")

                          c) This kind of writing is a job, it's not art. It's not poetry, it's
                          not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter. If
                          it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                          taking personally. But this is a job. If you were working your first
                          day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and pointed
                          to two boards you'd nailed together and said, "Hey, that joint's not
                          square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you. You'd
                          get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped you
                          out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof wouldn't
                          sit on it correctly. Writing-style is more subjective than the
                          squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                          worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about it.
                          You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                          imperfect as an editor. All we can do is try.

                          All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here.
                          It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing you,
                          just because they can. I don't know how the editors decide between
                          what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I suspect
                          that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so far.

                          Best,
                          SteveM

                          On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

                          > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                          > somewhere
                          > > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor's work
                          > > considerably.
                          > >
                          > > SteveM
                          >
                          > Not to mention the writer's...
                          >
                          > Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide,
                          > though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new version is
                          > in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed that, and
                          > as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                          >
                          > One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and units.
                          > The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has pretty
                          > comprehensive information regarding how this information should be
                          > presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                          >
                          > The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                          > documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront. It
                          > seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't internalized
                          > easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                          > would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting them
                          > carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                          >
                          > Ted.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                          >
                          >
                          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                          >
                          > ▪ Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                          >
                          > ▪ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > ▪ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          > Service.
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/



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                          Hiking clothes Hiking the inca trail Hiking backpack


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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • edwardripleyduggan
                          Steve, Looking over your articulate, insightful, and incisive response, I m really looking forward to your OR! I feel the latter part of your note goes to the
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Steve,

                            Looking over your articulate, insightful, and incisive response, I'm
                            really looking forward to your OR! I feel the latter part of your note
                            goes to the heart of the matter. I do have a few comments.

                            1. Public expressions of dismay at edits have been rather uncommon on
                            BGT. In general, those who submit ORs for the first time are either
                            grateful for the assistance in getting their review into shape, or
                            they simply don't respond. They drop out of the program. Though that's
                            often disappointing to me as an editor, the cruel truth is that they
                            were (likely enough) not a good fit for the program.

                            2. The issue of "styles" is a tough one. In point of fact, we try to
                            avoid editing style wherever possible. As an example, we often let
                            punctuation issues pass, provided that they don't interfere with ease
                            of reading. This is just as well, as I'm terrible about punctuation
                            myself. We value the variety of the voices which our contributors
                            bring to the table. However, I'm often faced with new contributors who
                            know their gear, but not how to express their opinions about it. This
                            is rather tough on all concerned.

                            3. The single biggest source of confusion lies with metric
                            conversions, and with the expression of units. The best guide to this
                            by far is to be found at the foot of the conversion page, at

                            http://www.backpackgeartest.org/convert.html

                            I would be the first to admit that this is a little buried (not
                            something over which I have control). In the next revision of the
                            Survival Guide, I hope this will be hyperlinked.

                            4. On BGT, see

                            http://www.backpackgeartest.org/lesson.php?lesson=BecomeTester&page=1

                            (linked from the homepage).

                            The Survival Guide, which is linked from several places, is at

                            http://www.backpackgeartest.org/requirements.php

                            Chapter 3 is the critical section.

                            ******


                            We are all volunteers here, and we wouldn't be editing if we didn't
                            care about both BGT and those who contribute to it. Without
                            contributors, BGT does not exist. No edit I make, or that any of the
                            editors make, is addressed to the writer as an individual. We're
                            editing the text, not the person!

                            I'm sure that there's more that I could write on this subject, but you
                            have addressed the issues admirably. Thanks.

                            Very best,

                            Ted.









                            --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Steven H. Miller
                            <metaphorce@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Ted and Jason:
                            >
                            > Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                            > Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website, and
                            > I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see when
                            > the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)
                            >
                            > But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over the
                            > past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                            > which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles" involved
                            > here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in the
                            > online lessons.
                            >
                            > Style is a very subjective call. I have noticed that every so often, a
                            > new report writer just freaks out about being edited. I've seen it
                            > twice in the past three weeks. It has seemed to center on a sense of
                            > outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                            > arbitrary.
                            >
                            > It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers if a
                            > couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                            > since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                            > editing.
                            >
                            > Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                            > couple of decades ago. I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                            > advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:
                            >
                            > a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as the
                            > author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                            > involved. Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you wrote
                            > it that way. But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                            > somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                            > needs fixing... you'll find something every time. Most really good
                            > writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel that
                            > it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                            > part with it at some point anyway.
                            >
                            > b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work. Criticism
                            > of your work is not criticism of you. Outright rejection of your work
                            > is not rejection of you. Nobody's talking about you as a human being
                            > when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag. (The first time I
                            > sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                            > thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                            > what had happened. "I got rejected" I said. "You did not get
                            > rejected!" she said very briskly. "Your script got rejected. They
                            > don't know you. They've never even met you.")
                            >
                            > c) This kind of writing is a job, it's not art. It's not poetry, it's
                            > not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter. If
                            > it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                            > taking personally. But this is a job. If you were working your first
                            > day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and pointed
                            > to two boards you'd nailed together and said, "Hey, that joint's not
                            > square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you. You'd
                            > get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped you
                            > out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof wouldn't
                            > sit on it correctly. Writing-style is more subjective than the
                            > squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                            > worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about it.
                            > You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                            > imperfect as an editor. All we can do is try.
                            >
                            > All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here.
                            > It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing you,
                            > just because they can. I don't know how the editors decide between
                            > what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I suspect
                            > that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so far.
                            >
                            > Best,
                            > SteveM
                            >
                            > On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:
                            >
                            > > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                            > > somewhere
                            > > > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the
                            editor's work
                            > > > considerably.
                            > > >
                            > > > SteveM
                            > >
                            > > Not to mention the writer's...
                            > >
                            > > Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide,
                            > > though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new version is
                            > > in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed that, and
                            > > as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                            > >
                            > > One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and units.
                            > > The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has
                            pretty
                            > > comprehensive information regarding how this information should be
                            > > presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                            > >
                            > > The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                            > > documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront. It
                            > > seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't internalized
                            > > easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                            > > would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting them
                            > > carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                            > >
                            > > Ted.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                            > >
                            > >
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                            > >
                            > > ▪  Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
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                            > > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                            Terms of
                            > > Service.
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                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Steven H. Miller
                            Ted: Well, I kinda doubt my OR is anything earthshaking. I think it s reasonably to the point, but that s all. Thanks for the Survival Guide link. It s not
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
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                              Ted:

                              Well, I kinda doubt my OR is anything earthshaking. I think it's
                              reasonably to the point, but that's all.

                              Thanks for the Survival Guide link. It's not linked from the main nav
                              bar, nor is it linked from the How To Become A Tester page, although it
                              IS linked from the Quickstart page.

                              I hope it's OK to talk about process onlist like this. I really felt
                              for those two reviewers who seemed to be bleeding so badly from being
                              edited. I figured that if these two people were hurting badly enough
                              to go public, there are probably others who are bleeding in private.
                              It felt like a little public airing of the issues - without so much of
                              the anguish - might do everyone a bit of good. (Pretty presumptuous
                              for a newbie, I admit, but have been known to pop blythly in where
                              angels fear to tread... with mixed results.)

                              I think this list and the associated website are a very cool web
                              phenomenon, and I'd like to be part of it. Obviously there's quite a
                              few others who would, too, so I thought maybe reducing some of the
                              emotional wear and tear of joining might be helpful.

                              Best,
                              SteveM


                              On Feb 3, 2006, at 1:47 PM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

                              > Steve,
                              >
                              > Looking over your articulate, insightful, and incisive response, I'm
                              > really looking forward to your OR! I feel the latter part of your note
                              > goes to the heart of the matter. I do have a few comments.
                              >
                              > 1. Public expressions of dismay at edits have been rather uncommon on
                              > BGT. In general, those who submit ORs for the first time are either
                              > grateful for the assistance in getting their review into shape, or
                              > they simply don't respond. They drop out of the program. Though that's
                              > often disappointing to me as an editor, the cruel truth is that they
                              > were (likely enough) not a good fit for the program.
                              >
                              > 2. The issue of "styles" is a tough one. In point of fact, we try to
                              > avoid editing style wherever possible. As an example, we often let
                              > punctuation issues pass, provided that they don't interfere with ease
                              > of reading. This is just as well, as I'm terrible about punctuation
                              > myself. We value the variety of the voices which our contributors
                              > bring to the table. However, I'm often faced with new contributors who
                              > know their gear, but not how to express their opinions about it. This
                              > is rather tough on all concerned.
                              >
                              > 3. The single biggest source of confusion lies with metric
                              > conversions, and with the expression of units. The best guide to this
                              > by far is to be found at the foot of the conversion page, at
                              >
                              > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/convert.html
                              >
                              > I would be the first to admit that this is a little buried (not
                              > something over which I have control). In the next revision of the
                              > Survival Guide, I hope this will be hyperlinked.
                              >
                              > 4. On BGT, see
                              >
                              > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/lesson.php?lesson=BecomeTester&page=1
                              >
                              > (linked from the homepage).
                              >
                              > The Survival Guide, which is linked from several places, is at
                              >
                              > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/requirements.php
                              >
                              > Chapter 3 is the critical section.
                              >
                              > ******
                              >
                              >
                              > We are all volunteers here, and we wouldn't be editing if we didn't
                              > care about both BGT and those who contribute to it. Without
                              > contributors, BGT does not exist. No edit I make, or that any of the
                              > editors make, is addressed to the writer as an individual. We're
                              > editing the text, not the person!
                              >
                              > I'm sure that there's more that I could write on this subject, but you
                              > have addressed the issues admirably. Thanks.
                              >
                              > Very best,
                              >
                              > Ted.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Steven H. Miller
                              > <metaphorce@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Ted and Jason:
                              > >
                              > > Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                              > > Guide.  I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website,
                              > and
                              > > I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see
                              > when
                              > > the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)
                              > >
                              > > But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over
                              > the
                              > > past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                              > > which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles"
                              > involved
                              > > here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in
                              > the
                              > > online lessons.
                              > >
                              > > Style is a very subjective call.  I have noticed that every so
                              > often, a
                              > > new report writer just freaks out about being edited.  I've seen it
                              > > twice in the past three weeks.  It has seemed to center on a sense
                              > of
                              > > outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                              > > arbitrary.
                              > >
                              > > It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers
                              > if a
                              > > couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                              > > since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                              > > editing.
                              > >
                              > > Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                              > > couple of decades ago.  I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                              > > advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:
                              > >
                              > > a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as
                              > the
                              > > author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                              > > involved.  Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you
                              > wrote
                              > > it that way.  But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                              > > somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                              > > needs fixing... you'll find something every time.  Most really good
                              > > writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel
                              > that
                              > > it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                              > > part with it at some point anyway.
                              > >
                              > > b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work. 
                              > Criticism
                              > > of your work is not criticism of you.  Outright rejection of your
                              > work
                              > > is not rejection of you.  Nobody's talking about you as a human
                              > being
                              > > when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag.   (The first
                              > time I
                              > > sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                              > > thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                              > > what had happened.  "I got rejected" I said.  "You did not get
                              > > rejected!" she said very briskly.  "Your script got rejected.  They
                              > > don't know you.  They've never even met you.")
                              > >
                              > > c)  This kind of writing is a job, it's not art.  It's not poetry,
                              > it's
                              > > not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter. 
                              > If
                              > > it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                              > > taking personally.  But this is a job.  If you were working your
                              > first
                              > > day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and
                              > pointed
                              > > to two boards you'd nailed together and said,  "Hey, that joint's
                              > not
                              > > square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you. 
                              > You'd
                              > > get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped
                              > you
                              > > out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof
                              > wouldn't
                              > > sit on it correctly.  Writing-style is more subjective than the
                              > > squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                              > > worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about
                              > it. 
                              > > You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                              > > imperfect as an editor.  All we can do is try.
                              > >
                              > > All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here. 
                              > > It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing
                              > you,
                              > > just because they can.  I don't know how the editors decide between
                              > > what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I
                              > suspect
                              > > that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so
                              > far.
                              > >
                              > > Best,
                              > > SteveM
                              > >
                              > > On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                              > > > somewhere
                              > > >  > that's accessible to new reporters?  It might ease the
                              > editor's work
                              > > >  > considerably.
                              > > >  >
                              > > >  > SteveM
                              > > >
                              > > >  Not to mention the writer's...
                              > > >
                              > > >  Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival
                              > Guide,
                              > > >  though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new
                              > version is
                              > > >  in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed
                              > that, and
                              > > >  as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                              > > >
                              > > >  One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and
                              > units.
                              > > >  The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has
                              > pretty
                              > > >  comprehensive information regarding how this information should
                              > be
                              > > >  presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                              > > >
                              > > >  The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                              > > >  documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront.
                              > It
                              > > >  seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't
                              > internalized
                              > > >  easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                              > > >  would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting
                              > them
                              > > >  carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                              > > >
                              > > >  Ted.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                              > > >
                              > > >     â–ª     Â Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                              > > > Â
                              > > >     â–ª     Â To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > > Â BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Â
                              > > >     â–ª     Â Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                              > Terms of
                              > > > Service.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                              >
                              >
                              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                              >
                              > ▪  Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                              >  
                              > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              >  BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >  
                              > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                              > Service.
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Jerry Goller
                              Excellent post, Steve! These are just general comments on the subject and not directed at anyone in particular. I ve tried to, as much as possible, avoid
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Excellent post, Steve!

                                These are just general comments on the subject and not directed at anyone in particular.

                                I've tried to, as much as possible, avoid having styles edited. I *want* different styles in reports. I can't imagine anything more boring than a few thousand cookie cutter reports. I want our readers to believe that a report they are reading could be from the person they shared a shelter with last week or the person they were talking to at the trailhead last month...or themselves, for that matter.

                                But we also have to have standards to make our reports readable and worthwhile. Certain information *must* be in there for reports to have value.

                                Editor make style *suggestions* only when they truly feel it would substantially add to the report. When they say it isn't a suggestion, but a requirement that means it is something we've discussed and decided was necessary for reports in general.

                                I'd also like to say I don't believe in micromanaging. The Editors have a tough job. I don't want to do their job. So I set down guidelines, general, to be sure, as to what I want and I let them decide how to get that.

                                I absolutely support *all* Mods and their people in their decisions. Unless I want to take over their jobs, which I don't, I don't see how it can work any other way.

                                I do, from time to time, comment on editing that seems to be more toward style than substance when I see it. It is a gentle reminder to Editors as to what I consider style and what I consider content. The content, the information, is the important part, not the report. The information is the only reason BGT exists.

                                If you feel quite strongly that it is a style issue then don't make the change. If the Editors feel quite strongly that it is a content issue and needs to be changed then they can leave it up to me and I will arbitrate it. But I am the court of last resort and am not going to second guess Editors on a daily, or weekly, or monthly basis. Don't bring it to me unless it is a deal breaker between you and BGT.

                                And when I make a decision the only discussion is if you want to follow it or leave BGT.

                                Jerry Goller
                                Publisher/Owner
                                Backpackgeartest.org

                                <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/> http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.



                                _____

                                From: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steven H.Miller
                                Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 10:42 AM
                                To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [BackpackGearTest] Re: EDIT ADDENDUM: Owner Review - GoLite Hex 3 - by tim todd


                                Ted and Jason:

                                Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                                Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website, and
                                I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see when
                                the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)

                                But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over the
                                past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                                which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles" involved
                                here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in the
                                online lessons.

                                Style is a very subjective call. I have noticed that every so often, a
                                new report writer just freaks out about being edited. I've seen it
                                twice in the past three weeks. It has seemed to center on a sense of
                                outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                                arbitrary.

                                It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers if a
                                couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                                since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                                editing.

                                Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                                couple of decades ago. I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                                advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:

                                a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as the
                                author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                                involved. Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you wrote
                                it that way. But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                                somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                                needs fixing... you'll find something every time. Most really good
                                writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel that
                                it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                                part with it at some point anyway.

                                b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work. Criticism
                                of your work is not criticism of you. Outright rejection of your work
                                is not rejection of you. Nobody's talking about you as a human being
                                when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag. (The first time I
                                sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                                thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                                what had happened. "I got rejected" I said. "You did not get
                                rejected!" she said very briskly. "Your script got rejected. They
                                don't know you. They've never even met you.")

                                c) This kind of writing is a job, it's not art. It's not poetry, it's
                                not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter. If
                                it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                                taking personally. But this is a job. If you were working your first
                                day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and pointed
                                to two boards you'd nailed together and said, "Hey, that joint's not
                                square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you. You'd
                                get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped you
                                out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof wouldn't
                                sit on it correctly. Writing-style is more subjective than the
                                squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                                worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about it.
                                You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                                imperfect as an editor. All we can do is try.

                                All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here.
                                It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing you,
                                just because they can. I don't know how the editors decide between
                                what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I suspect
                                that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so far.

                                Best,
                                SteveM

                                On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

                                > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                                > somewhere
                                > > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the editor's work
                                > > considerably.
                                > >
                                > > SteveM
                                >
                                > Not to mention the writer's...
                                >
                                > Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival Guide,
                                > though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new version is
                                > in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed that, and
                                > as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                                >
                                > One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and units.
                                > The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has pretty
                                > comprehensive information regarding how this information should be
                                > presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                                >
                                > The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                                > documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront. It
                                > seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't internalized
                                > easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                                > would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting them
                                > carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                                >
                                > Ted.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                                >
                                >
                                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                >
                                > ▪ Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                                >
                                > ▪ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > ▪ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                > Service.
                                >
                                >


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                              • Jerry Goller
                                I d also like to say the BGT is a work in progress. We re always interested in ideas. May not take them, of course, but always interested...... ;o) Jerry
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I'd also like to say the BGT is a work in progress. We're always interested in ideas. May not take them, of course, but always interested...... ;o)

                                  Jerry

                                  <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/> http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.



                                  _____

                                  From: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steven H.Miller
                                  Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 3:44 PM
                                  To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [BackpackGearTest] Editing protocols WAS: EDIT ADDENDUM: Owner Review...


                                  Ted:

                                  Well, I kinda doubt my OR is anything earthshaking. I think it's
                                  reasonably to the point, but that's all.

                                  Thanks for the Survival Guide link. It's not linked from the main nav
                                  bar, nor is it linked from the How To Become A Tester page, although it
                                  IS linked from the Quickstart page.

                                  I hope it's OK to talk about process onlist like this. I really felt
                                  for those two reviewers who seemed to be bleeding so badly from being
                                  edited. I figured that if these two people were hurting badly enough
                                  to go public, there are probably others who are bleeding in private.
                                  It felt like a little public airing of the issues - without so much of
                                  the anguish - might do everyone a bit of good. (Pretty presumptuous
                                  for a newbie, I admit, but have been known to pop blythly in where
                                  angels fear to tread... with mixed results.)

                                  I think this list and the associated website are a very cool web
                                  phenomenon, and I'd like to be part of it. Obviously there's quite a
                                  few others who would, too, so I thought maybe reducing some of the
                                  emotional wear and tear of joining might be helpful.

                                  Best,
                                  SteveM


                                  On Feb 3, 2006, at 1:47 PM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:

                                  > Steve,
                                  >
                                  > Looking over your articulate, insightful, and incisive response, I'm
                                  > really looking forward to your OR! I feel the latter part of your note
                                  > goes to the heart of the matter. I do have a few comments.
                                  >
                                  > 1. Public expressions of dismay at edits have been rather uncommon on
                                  > BGT. In general, those who submit ORs for the first time are either
                                  > grateful for the assistance in getting their review into shape, or
                                  > they simply don't respond. They drop out of the program. Though that's
                                  > often disappointing to me as an editor, the cruel truth is that they
                                  > were (likely enough) not a good fit for the program.
                                  >
                                  > 2. The issue of "styles" is a tough one. In point of fact, we try to
                                  > avoid editing style wherever possible. As an example, we often let
                                  > punctuation issues pass, provided that they don't interfere with ease
                                  > of reading. This is just as well, as I'm terrible about punctuation
                                  > myself. We value the variety of the voices which our contributors
                                  > bring to the table. However, I'm often faced with new contributors who
                                  > know their gear, but not how to express their opinions about it. This
                                  > is rather tough on all concerned.
                                  >
                                  > 3. The single biggest source of confusion lies with metric
                                  > conversions, and with the expression of units. The best guide to this
                                  > by far is to be found at the foot of the conversion page, at
                                  >
                                  > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/convert.html
                                  >
                                  > I would be the first to admit that this is a little buried (not
                                  > something over which I have control). In the next revision of the
                                  > Survival Guide, I hope this will be hyperlinked.
                                  >
                                  > 4. On BGT, see
                                  >
                                  > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/lesson.php?lesson=BecomeTester <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/lesson.php?lesson=BecomeTester&page=1> &page=1
                                  >
                                  > (linked from the homepage).
                                  >
                                  > The Survival Guide, which is linked from several places, is at
                                  >
                                  > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/requirements.php
                                  >
                                  > Chapter 3 is the critical section.
                                  >
                                  > ******
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > We are all volunteers here, and we wouldn't be editing if we didn't
                                  > care about both BGT and those who contribute to it. Without
                                  > contributors, BGT does not exist. No edit I make, or that any of the
                                  > editors make, is addressed to the writer as an individual. We're
                                  > editing the text, not the person!
                                  >
                                  > I'm sure that there's more that I could write on this subject, but you
                                  > have addressed the issues admirably. Thanks.
                                  >
                                  > Very best,
                                  >
                                  > Ted.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Steven H. Miller
                                  > <metaphorce@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Ted and Jason:
                                  > >
                                  > > Actually, looking back through my emails, I can't find the Survival
                                  > > Guide. I certainly read the review-writing lessons on the website,
                                  > and
                                  > > I think I followed the suggestions pretty closely (but we'll see
                                  > when
                                  > > the editor "has at" my first review, won't we!)
                                  > >
                                  > > But having read a bunch of fresh reviews and the edits of them over
                                  > the
                                  > > past few weeks, it seems to me that there are not only standards -
                                  > > which are addressed well in your post, Ted - but also "styles"
                                  > involved
                                  > > here, and style requirements are not really clearly documented in
                                  > the
                                  > > online lessons.
                                  > >
                                  > > Style is a very subjective call. I have noticed that every so
                                  > often, a
                                  > > new report writer just freaks out about being edited. I've seen it
                                  > > twice in the past three weeks. It has seemed to center on a sense
                                  > of
                                  > > outrage that the editor is being too demanding, too subjective, too
                                  > > arbitrary.
                                  > >
                                  > > It would certainly make it easier for a lot of new report-writers
                                  > if a
                                  > > couple of you veterans could try to document some thoughts on style,
                                  > > since you are certainly operating out of your style-opinions in your
                                  > > editing.
                                  > >
                                  > > Now, I write for a living, and my skin got toughened up to editing a
                                  > > couple of decades ago. I feel it incumbent on me to pass along some
                                  > > advice that helped me over this emotional hurdle:
                                  > >
                                  > > a) If your editor does not seem objective to you, remember that as
                                  > the
                                  > > author, you are probably the least objective of all the parties
                                  > > involved. Of course you think your piece is good: that's why you
                                  > wrote
                                  > > it that way. But if you can step back from it honestly and pretend
                                  > > somebody else wrote it and see if you can spot anything in it that
                                  > > needs fixing... you'll find something every time. Most really good
                                  > > writers are never completely satisfied with their work, and feel
                                  > that
                                  > > it was never really "finished" and perfected, only that they had to
                                  > > part with it at some point anyway.
                                  > >
                                  > > b) It's important to distinguish between you and your work.
                                  > Criticism
                                  > > of your work is not criticism of you. Outright rejection of your
                                  > work
                                  > > is not rejection of you. Nobody's talking about you as a human
                                  > being
                                  > > when they're editing your report on a sleeping bag. (The first
                                  > time I
                                  > > sent off a screenplay and got it back with a short 'Thanks, but no
                                  > > thanks' note, I called an older and wiser friend and glumly told her
                                  > > what had happened. "I got rejected" I said. "You did not get
                                  > > rejected!" she said very briskly. "Your script got rejected. They
                                  > > don't know you. They've never even met you.")
                                  > >
                                  > > c) This kind of writing is a job, it's not art. It's not poetry,
                                  > it's
                                  > > not a confession of your inmost feelings, it's not a love letter.
                                  > If
                                  > > it was one of those things, criticism of your style might be worth
                                  > > taking personally. But this is a job. If you were working your
                                  > first
                                  > > day on a construction job, and a veteran carpenter came by and
                                  > pointed
                                  > > to two boards you'd nailed together and said, "Hey, that joint's
                                  > not
                                  > > square," you wouldn't start yelling at him for criticizing you.
                                  > You'd
                                  > > get your square and fix the joint, and be thankful the guy helped
                                  > you
                                  > > out before you put up the wall-frame and found that the roof
                                  > wouldn't
                                  > > sit on it correctly. Writing-style is more subjective than the
                                  > > squareness of two studs, but it's still a job, not art, and it's not
                                  > > worth expending a lot of emotional energy getting defensive about
                                  > it.
                                  > > You are probably imperfect as a writer, and your editor is probably
                                  > > imperfect as an editor. All we can do is try.
                                  > >
                                  > > All that said, I sympathize with the two freak-outs I've seen here.
                                  > > It's terrible to feel that a strangers are capriciously torturing
                                  > you,
                                  > > just because they can. I don't know how the editors decide between
                                  > > what things are mandatory edits and what are suggestions, but I
                                  > suspect
                                  > > that therein lies the key to the emotional problems I've seen so
                                  > far.
                                  > >
                                  > > Best,
                                  > > SteveM
                                  > >
                                  > > On Feb 3, 2006, at 7:02 AM, edwardripleyduggan wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > > Are these "house styles and standards" delineated in writing
                                  > > > somewhere
                                  > > > > that's accessible to new reporters? It might ease the
                                  > editor's work
                                  > > > > considerably.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > SteveM
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Not to mention the writer's...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Jason's post addressed this issue pretty well. The Survival
                                  > Guide,
                                  > > > though a little out of date for a few minor details (a new
                                  > version is
                                  > > > in the works) remains an essential document. Jason stressed
                                  > that, and
                                  > > > as both a tester and an editor I agree.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > One major source of edits is in the matter of conversions and
                                  > units.
                                  > > > The BGT site has a converter utility. The foot of this page has
                                  > pretty
                                  > > > comprehensive information regarding how this information should
                                  > be
                                  > > > presented, and I consider this text indispensable.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The BGT standards are not hidden away or arbitrary; they are all
                                  > > > documented, and most of the documentation is indicated upfront.
                                  > It
                                  > > > seems not everyone reads it, though (or perhaps it isn't
                                  > internalized
                                  > > > easily). I really don't expect perfect ORs to come rolling in--it
                                  > > > would be boring if they did--but I do ask that those submitting
                                  > them
                                  > > > carefully attend to my edits and advice. Most do.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Ted.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  > > >
                                  > > > â–ª Â Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                                  > > > Â
                                  > > > â–ª Â To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > > Â BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > Â
                                  > > > â–ª Â Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                  > Terms of
                                  > > > Service.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  >
                                  > ▪ Visit your group "BackpackGearTest" on the web.
                                  >
                                  > ▪ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Andrew Priest
                                  ... Hi Steve Ahh, it is linked from the How to Become a Tester page. You will find it in the first paragraph of the Quick Start Guide and it is linked at
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Feb 8, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    At 06:43 AM 4/02/2006, you wrote:

                                    >Thanks for the Survival Guide link. It's not linked from the main nav
                                    >bar, nor is it linked from the How To Become A Tester page, although it
                                    >IS linked from the Quickstart page.

                                    Hi Steve

                                    Ahh, it is linked from the How to Become a Tester page. You will find
                                    it in the first paragraph of the Quick Start Guide and it is linked
                                    at
                                    <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/lesson.php?lesson=BecomeTester&page=9>
                                    the appropriate page of the How to Become a Tester documents.

                                    Also if you log into the BackpackGearTest.org site you will find
                                    under Documents. It is called "Test Requirements" which it primarily is.

                                    As an aside, can you please ensure you edit (read delete the surplus
                                    parts of the email you are replying to) your posts before sending to
                                    the list. We ask you do this as a consideration of other users,
                                    particularly digest readers.

                                    Thanks
                                    Andrew Priest
                                    List Moderator





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Steven H. Miller
                                    Andrew: In the future, I will delete the previous (the opposite is the protocol on other lists I belong to). As to the Survival Guide/Test Requirements
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Feb 8, 2006
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                                      Andrew:

                                      In the future, I will delete the previous (the opposite is the protocol
                                      on other lists I belong to).

                                      As to the "Survival Guide/Test Requirements" pages... May I suggest
                                      (based on my own strugles as a pioneer website content creator in the
                                      mid 1990's) that settling on one name for it and always using that name
                                      -both on the website and in posts/emails - would make it easier on us
                                      newbies.

                                      Thanks,
                                      SteveM
                                    • Andrew Priest
                                      ... Protocol on other lists? That is interesting. If you do a search on email etiquette you might find that your approach of (a) top posting versus bottom
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        At 03:46 AM 9/02/2006, you wrote:
                                        >Andrew:
                                        >
                                        >In the future, I will delete the previous (the opposite is the protocol
                                        >on other lists I belong to).

                                        Protocol on other lists? That is interesting. If you do a search on
                                        email etiquette you might find that your approach of (a) top posting
                                        versus bottom posting (considering people with disabilities) and (b)
                                        quoting in full all the advert details and in full all the previous
                                        posts in the thread as opposed to editing the material you are
                                        quoting to the relevant material is not consider good etiquette.

                                        I suggest you also try going on to digest and get a feel for the
                                        digest users experience. You might even be surprised. Or
                                        alternatively I am sure Roger and some of the other digest users here
                                        will be more than happy to let you know what they think of you
                                        earlier approach :-).

                                        >As to the "Survival Guide/Test Requirements" pages... May I suggest
                                        >(based on my own strugles as a pioneer website content creator in the
                                        >mid 1990's) that settling on one name for it and always using that name
                                        >-both on the website and in posts/emails - would make it easier on us
                                        >newbies.

                                        Sure, I understand your point, but it is referred to as the Survival
                                        Guide in all "newbie" related documentation and the testers who have
                                        signed up to the website seem to have had no problem finding the
                                        document. This is the first time that I am aware of since we have had
                                        the website that it has been raised as an issue. Given the website
                                        usage etc I am not going to get hung up on this one.

                                        That said I will pass your comment on to the Webmaster.

                                        Regard

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • edwardripleyduggan
                                        Historically (can one write historically in connection with such a recent phenomenon as the Internet?) the norm with replies to e-mail--and, by extension, to
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Historically (can one write "historically" in connection with such a
                                          recent phenomenon as the Internet?) the norm with replies to
                                          e-mail--and, by extension, to lists--has been to remove all
                                          superfluous material. I was online as soon as public access to the
                                          Internet (i.e. to those without government or academic affiliation)
                                          was permitted, and all the books on the subject of Internet procedures
                                          of that time mentioned trimming excess from e-mail.

                                          Though this sounds like one of those "Back when I was a lad..."
                                          stories, almost everything was command line driven, but that was OK
                                          because we were all used to DOS, if not even more "primitive"
                                          operating systems. I still like command line, in fact. The issue with
                                          e-mail is both practical (bandwidth) and procedural (it's annoying to
                                          readers who receive the digest form).

                                          My first machine had 1 MG of RAM--which marks me very much as a
                                          Johnny-come-lately, given that the really early home computers had 64
                                          k or less. I now have 50 times more RAM than I had hard-disk capacity
                                          back then. This statistic is somehow both obscurely pleasing and
                                          disturbing...

                                          Ted.

                                          Andrew wrote:

                                          > Protocol on other lists? That is interesting. If you do a search on
                                          > email etiquette you might find that your approach of (a) top posting
                                          > versus bottom posting
                                        • Andrew Priest
                                          ... Hate to tell you this Ted but I suspect I was online even before you ... academic institution. I can still remember or the stories of doom and gloom if
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            At 10:20 PM 9/02/2006, you wrote:
                                            >Historically (can one write "historically" in connection with such a
                                            >recent phenomenon as the Internet?) the norm with replies to
                                            >e-mail--and, by extension, to lists--has been to remove all
                                            >superfluous material. I was online as soon as public access to the
                                            >Internet (i.e. to those without government or academic affiliation)
                                            >was permitted, and all the books on the subject of Internet procedures
                                            >of that time mentioned trimming excess from e-mail.

                                            Hate to tell you this Ted but I suspect I was online even before you
                                            :-). I can remember vaguely pre-WWW days, but then I work for a
                                            academic institution. I can still remember or the stories of doom and
                                            gloom if business got hold of the Internet. How things have changed.
                                            Mind you I see AOL is looking to charge to have emails sent to AOL members.

                                            Andrew


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Leesa J
                                            I remember a demonstration of spednet it was an academic online board for special education teachers. We could go to the university to access information
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              I remember a demonstration of 'spednet' it was an academic 'online' board
                                              for special education teachers. We could go to the university to access
                                              information using their computers. I'm pretty sure it was 87-88. Most of
                                              the teachers couldn't understand why this was worth using - they thought it
                                              would never amount to anything. I guess I was a geek even then. Leesa

                                              On 2/9/06, Andrew Priest <apriest@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > At 10:20 PM 9/02/2006, you wrote:
                                              > >Historically (can one write "historically" in connection with such a
                                              > >recent phenomenon as the Internet?) the norm with replies to
                                              > >e-mail--and, by extension, to lists--has been to remove all
                                              > >superfluous material. I was online as soon as public access to the
                                              > >Internet (i.e. to those without government or academic affiliation)
                                              > >was permitted, and all the books on the subject of Internet procedures
                                              > >of that time mentioned trimming excess from e-mail.
                                              >
                                              > Hate to tell you this Ted but I suspect I was online even before you
                                              > :-). I can remember vaguely pre-WWW days, but then I work for a
                                              > academic institution. I can still remember or the stories of doom and
                                              > gloom if business got hold of the Internet. How things have changed.
                                              > Mind you I see AOL is looking to charge to have emails sent to AOL
                                              > members.
                                              >
                                              > Andrew
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > To read our reviews, please visit http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > SPONSORED LINKS
                                              > Hiking sock<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Hiking+sock&w1=Hiking+sock&w2=Hiking+tour&w3=Hiking+vacation&w4=Hiking+clothes&w5=Hiking+the+inca+trail&w6=Hiking+backpack&c=6&s=123&.sig=U7vNs1GAXQsMdkmMejGcvg> Hiking
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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Brad Larson
                                              At the risk of perpetuating this thread indefinitely.... -- I remember sending my first emails in 1975 via U of Minnesota -- In 1983 had my own ATT 3b2 Unix
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
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                                                At the risk of perpetuating this thread indefinitely....

                                                -- I remember sending my first emails in 1975 via U of Minnesota
                                                -- In 1983 had my own ATT 3b2 Unix SysV computer in my home running
                                                UUCP (unix to unix copy) that allowed me to send emails


                                                Leesa J wrote:
                                                > I remember a demonstration of 'spednet' ... I'm pretty sure it was 87-88.
                                                > On 2/9/06, Andrew Priest <apriest@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >> At 10:20 PM 9/02/2006, you wrote:
                                                >>
                                                >>> Historically (can one write "historically" in connection with such a
                                                >>> recent phenomenon as the Internet?)
                                                >>>
                                                >> Hate to tell you this Ted but I suspect I was online even before you
                                                >> :-). I can remember vaguely pre-WWW days...
                                                >>
                                                >> Andrew
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                              • Steven H. Miller
                                                I can t top that (1975, that is), but I was known to frequent a notoriously raucous chat room on Peoplelink somewhere between 1983 1987. (I think... those
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  I can't top that (1975, that is), but I was known to frequent a
                                                  notoriously raucous chat room on Peoplelink somewhere between 1983
                                                  1987. (I think... those years are a bit hazy). It was there that the
                                                  term SPAM first arose. Certain individuals had a tactic for silencing
                                                  people who they found boring or intrusive in our little group. They
                                                  would start quoting the Monty Python SPAM routine back and forth...
                                                  they had it pre-typed so they could post far more qucikly than anyone
                                                  else - until they drowned out all other conversation. (Hence, SPAM is
                                                  unwanted communication that chokes the system). Those of us who were
                                                  regulars would just wait this out. The interlopers would figure this
                                                  was no place to pick up cybersex, and leave. Then normal conversation
                                                  would resume.

                                                  But seriously, folks, I had no intention of stirring up a storm. I
                                                  belong to a couple of Photography oriented lists where people normally
                                                  leave in the preceeding thread messages. They don't even <snip>. If
                                                  it's different here, I don't mind at all. I'm perfectly flexible to
                                                  local custom.

                                                  As to Top-posting VS bottom posting, this is endlessly the topic of
                                                  debate. I have seen nasty flame-wars erupt over the question of which
                                                  practice is actually the "norm," what constitutes courtesy, and what
                                                  makes something intelligible.

                                                  And then there's interstitial-posting...

                                                  Anyway, I hope to repost my (edited) OR soon. Back to work.

                                                  SteveM


                                                  On Feb 9, 2006, at 8:26 AM, Brad Larson wrote:

                                                  > At the risk of perpetuating this thread indefinitely....
                                                  >
                                                  > -- I remember sending my first emails in 1975 via U of Minnesota
                                                  > -- In 1983 had my own ATT 3b2 Unix SysV computer in my home running
                                                  > UUCP (unix to unix copy) that allowed me to send emails
                                                  >
                                                  >


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • edwardripleyduggan
                                                  This thread should probably end here, but I suspect that machine is now quite collectible!
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Feb 9, 2006
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    This thread should probably end here, but I suspect that machine is
                                                    now quite collectible!


                                                    > At the risk of perpetuating this thread indefinitely....
                                                    >
                                                    > -- I remember sending my first emails in 1975 via U of Minnesota
                                                    > -- In 1983 had my own ATT 3b2 Unix SysV computer in my home running
                                                    > UUCP (unix to unix copy) that allowed me to send emails
                                                    >
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