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Re: [BackpackGearTest] Digest Number 94

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  • Orange Bug
    A filter will not remove viruses, but cysts and fungal spores are likely to be removed. Nothing is 100% in any case. In North America, there appears little
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 15, 2001
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      A filter will not remove viruses, but cysts and fungal spores are
      likely to be removed. Nothing is 100% in any case. In North America,
      there appears little need to use a purifier for viruses in available
      water. Viruses are killed very quickly with Iodine or other bleaching
      agent. Spores and cysts are much hardier, necessitating longer exposure
      to the bleaching agent if it is the only purification used.

      Assuming the company has gotten FDA material for premarketing tests,
      this should be an excellent opportunity.

      Bill Thorneloe, MD


      --- BackpackGearTest@egroups.com wrote:
      Dont quote me on this because I,m not a scientist. But I think to
      be safe it is best to use both a filter and some form of
      disenfection. Since a filter will let viruses through either boil or
      chemically treat. I think the biggest threat is Crypto. It is
      incapsulated in a cyst which makes it difficult to kill with
      chemicals. However it is easily removed with a filter of 2 micron
      pore size or smaller. The only tradeoff is such small pore size
      shortens the life (gal. it will treat) considerable. When this test
      group is made I would like to pertisipate, however if you are
      limiting testersin more than one catagory I would prefer to be passed
      this time. I am really more interested in testing the Big Agnus. Any
      news as to when this might start. Thanks.

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    • Ernest Engman
      I m interested in testing a filter. I hike here in Louisiana, and the water is often stagnant or at best barely flowing. Sources are often flowing through
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 15, 2001
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        I'm interested in testing a filter. I hike here in Louisiana, and the water is often stagnant or at best barely flowing. Sources are often flowing through places where wild horses graze and there is most likely fecees (sp?) in the water and possibly chemicals from agriculture. I have been packing potable water and only doing short trips while contemplating finally breaking down and getting a filter. I'm an iodine only guy for years.
         
        I would definitely put it through some paces here with this water and my desire for a multi day backcountry trip.
         
        Is it an in-line, pump, gravity, or what?
         
        Ernest Engman
      • Gear Tester
        When we are ready to start the test I ll post details of the product, the scope of the test, tester requirements, time frame, and a call for testers that
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 15, 2001
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          When we are ready to start the test I'll post details of the product, the scope of the test, tester requirements, time frame, and a call for testers that comply. Look for that post and apply then.
          Jerry
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 8:45 AM
          Subject: RE: [BackpackGearTest] Digest Number 94

          I'm interested in testing a filter. I hike here in Louisiana, and the water is often stagnant or at best barely flowing. Sources are often flowing through places where wild horses graze and there is most likely fecees (sp?) in the water and possibly chemicals from agriculture. I have been packing potable water and only doing short trips while contemplating finally breaking down and getting a filter. I'm an iodine only guy for years.
           
          I would definitely put it through some paces here with this water and my desire for a multi day backcountry trip.
           
          Is it an in-line, pump, gravity, or what?
           
          Ernest Engman


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        • Chad F Williams
          I m new, so forgive me for not knowing which filter ya ll are talking about. While hiking the Caroline Dorman trail in Kisatchie (Louisiana) we used a Pur
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 15, 2001
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            I'm new, so forgive me for not knowing which filter
            ya'll are talking about. While hiking the Caroline
            Dorman trail in Kisatchie (Louisiana) we used a Pur
            Hiker filter on the cleanest water we could find,
            which was still stagnant but not an actual mud puddle,
            and it worked well. The water was still nasty, but
            taste isn't what's important. We just added some
            cherry flavoring from our MRE's and dubbed it
            "Kisatchie Kool-Aid".

            --- Ernest Engman <ebengman@...> wrote:
            > I'm interested in testing a filter. I hike here in
            > Louisiana, and the water
            > is often stagnant or at best barely flowing. Sources
            > are often flowing
            > through places where wild horses graze and there is
            > most likely fecees (sp?)
            > in the water and possibly chemicals from
            > agriculture. I have been packing
            > potable water and only doing short trips while
            > contemplating finally
            > breaking down and getting a filter. I'm an iodine
            > only guy for years.
            >
            > I would definitely put it through some paces here
            > with this water and my
            > desire for a multi day backcountry trip.
            >
            > Is it an in-line, pump, gravity, or what?
            >
            > Ernest Engman
            >


            =====
            Chad Williams - Theta Rho #010
            Homepage: http://users.ev1.net/~chadwilliams/
            e-mail: Kimchad97@...
            s-mail: 4818 Roserock Ln.
            Spring, TX 77388-4339
            phone: (281)528-0415

            __________________________________________________
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          • Ernest Engman
            I don t know what type of filter it is either, but I have been thinking of getting a filter. I found a Safewater Anywhere in-line on sale for $21.99 (normally
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 15, 2001
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              I don't know what type of filter it is either, but I have been thinking of getting a filter.
               
              I found a Safewater Anywhere in-line on sale for $21.99 (normally $34.99) at a local gun store. It weighs 2oz and goes right in the line for your hydration system. I'm planning to get one and use it as a gravity system, and in some situations as it is intended by just drinking through it. It only weighs 2oz according to a guy I know that bought one.
               
              I'll also wait for the testing of this new filter and see if I can get in on the testing.
               
              Ernest
               
              PS Are you in the Army as well? I'm at Ft. Polk.
            • David Spellman
              No, that s not why PUR filters were recalled. It had nothing whatever to do with an iodine core but had to do with the charcoal postfilter. PUR doesn t rely
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 15, 2001
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                No, that's not why PUR filters were recalled.

                It had nothing whatever to do with an "iodine core" but had to do with
                the charcoal postfilter. PUR doesn't rely on iodine to kill the crawlies
                -- it relies on a filter that's too small for them to get through --
                specifically, the filter inside the body of the unit. The charcoal
                postfilter on the Voyageur series was suffering from a run of charcoal
                that wasn't up to snuff. If you read the information that PUR put out at
                the time, you'll see that the filters were just fine for all of the
                nasties but the viruses (virii) which usually don't crop up in the US.

                While there is an iodine compound on the surface of the filter, it's not
                there to kill the bugs as they go through, but to kill bugs that get
                trapped on the surface of the filter during the filtration process. In
                this case, those guys are trapped there until the next time you backwash
                the filter, so it's better to have them dead than not, and there's
                plenty of time to kill them while they're hanging around.

                In short, you're not drinking water with iodine-killed bugs when you
                drink PUR water they way you are when you just toss iodine tabs into
                water. They're simply not there at all, having been eliminated entirely
                by the filter. In addition to the bugs, PUR gets rid of almost all of
                the silt, crap and debris in the water -- stuff that you end up
                drinking when you just treat the water with iodine. You really should
                check the PUR filters out and find out how they work -- especially
                before you deliver uninformed opinions.

                david




                BackpackGearTest@egroups.com wrote:
                > Message: 1
                > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:40:42 -0600
                > From: "Bryan Signorelli" <bsignorelli@...>
                > Subject: RE: Digest Number 93
                >
                > Just a comment...
                >
                > Have you ever wondered why any kind of iodine treatment system tells you to
                > let the water remain in contact with the iodine for at LEAST 20-30 mins and
                > if the water is ral cold then the treatment should be longer? This is
                > because the iodine has to have time to kill off the bad things.
                >
                > This is where the PUR filters fail to do much of anything. You pump the
                > water through the filter and the iodine treatment part and then through a
                > charcoal filter and it removes the iodine (taste?) from the water. There is
                > no prolongd contact time.
                >
                > IMHO, this may be why all the PUR filters with the iodine core were recalled
                > recently.
                >
                > Bryan Signorelli

                ________________________________________________________________________
              • Chad F Williams
                No, I m not in the Army. I used to live in Lake Charles and the only place to do some really good hiking was in Kisatchie. ... ===== Chad Williams - Theta Rho
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 15, 2001
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                  No, I'm not in the Army. I used to live in Lake
                  Charles and the only place to do some really good
                  hiking was in Kisatchie.

                  --- Ernest Engman <ebengman@...> wrote:
                  > I don't know what type of filter it is either, but I
                  > have been thinking of
                  > getting a filter.
                  >
                  > I found a Safewater Anywhere in-line on sale for
                  > $21.99 (normally $34.99) at
                  > a local gun store. It weighs 2oz and goes right in
                  > the line for your
                  > hydration system. I'm planning to get one and use it
                  > as a gravity system,
                  > and in some situations as it is intended by just
                  > drinking through it. It
                  > only weighs 2oz according to a guy I know that
                  > bought one.
                  >
                  > I'll also wait for the testing of this new filter
                  > and see if I can get in on
                  > the testing.
                  >
                  > Ernest
                  >
                  > PS Are you in the Army as well? I'm at Ft. Polk.
                  >


                  =====
                  Chad Williams - Theta Rho #010
                  Homepage: http://users.ev1.net/~chadwilliams/
                  e-mail: Kimchad97@...
                  s-mail: 4818 Roserock Ln.
                  Spring, TX 77388-4339
                  phone: (281)528-0415

                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
                  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
                • Gear Tester
                  Actually, according to the Pur website, the Voyageur uses TritekĀ® technology with iodinated resin as a Purification System . I m pretty sure that s a
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 15, 2001
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                    Actually, according to the Pur website, the Voyageur uses "TritekĀ® technology with iodinated resin" as a "Purification System".  I'm pretty sure that's a really cool name for iodine in the filter element. The filter is described as "0.3 micron pleated AntiClog™ filter, 160 sq. in. surface area". It would have to go down to .02 microns to filter out viruses on it's own with no chemical assist. I know the original Katadyn went that far but it is the only one I know of that could filter out viruses with out chemicals. BTW, I've got a Voyageur with very little use I'd let go cheap....=o). I never got the new carbon for the StopTop carbon filter, of course. I was generally unimpressed with mine. If I had to have a pump I'd use a Sweetwater. It's lighter, about as fast, cheaper, and you can still use Aqua Mira or iodine if you're worried about viruses.
                    Jerry
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 3:25 PM
                    Subject: Re: [BackpackGearTest] Digest Number 94

                    No, that's not why PUR filters were recalled.

                    It had nothing whatever to do with an "iodine core"  but had to do with
                    the charcoal postfilter. PUR doesn't rely on iodine to kill the crawlies
                    -- it relies on a filter that's too small for them to get through --
                    specifically, the filter inside the body of the unit. The charcoal
                    postfilter on the Voyageur series was suffering from a run of charcoal
                    that wasn't up to snuff. If you read the information that PUR put out at
                    the time, you'll see that the filters were just fine for all of the
                    nasties but the viruses (virii) which usually don't crop up in the US.

                    While there is an iodine compound on the surface of the filter, it's not
                    there to kill the bugs as they go through, but to kill bugs that get
                    trapped on the surface of the filter during the filtration process. In
                    this case, those guys are trapped there until the next time you backwash
                    the filter, so it's better to have them dead than not, and there's
                    plenty of time to kill them while they're hanging around.

                    In short, you're not drinking water with iodine-killed bugs when you
                    drink PUR water they way you are when you just toss iodine tabs into
                    water. They're simply not there at all, having been eliminated entirely
                    by the filter. In addition to the bugs, PUR gets rid of almost all of
                    the  silt, crap and debris in the water -- stuff that you end up
                    drinking when you just treat the water with iodine.  You really should
                    check the PUR filters out and find out how they work -- especially
                    before you deliver uninformed opinions.

                          david




                    BackpackGearTest@egroups.com wrote:
                    > Message: 1
                    >    Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:40:42 -0600
                    >    From: "Bryan Signorelli" <bsignorelli@...>
                    > Subject: RE: Digest Number 93
                    >
                    > Just a comment...
                    >
                    > Have you ever wondered why any kind of iodine treatment system tells you to
                    > let the water remain in contact with the iodine for at LEAST 20-30 mins and
                    > if the water is ral cold then the treatment should be longer?  This is
                    > because the iodine has to have time to kill off the bad things.
                    >
                    > This is where the PUR filters fail to do much of anything.  You pump the
                    > water through the filter  and the iodine treatment part and then through a
                    > charcoal filter and it removes the iodine (taste?) from the water.  There is
                    > no prolongd contact time.
                    >
                    > IMHO, this may be why all the PUR filters with the iodine core were recalled
                    > recently.
                    >
                    > Bryan Signorelli

                    ________________________________________________________________________


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                    backpackgeartest-unsubscribe@egroups.com


                  • Phil Jones
                    Ernest, You must be doing your hiking near Shreveport. I live in New Orleans and have to go to the Black Creek trail to get in some good overnight hiking
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 15, 2001
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                      Ernest,
                      You must be doing your hiking near Shreveport.  I live in New Orleans and have to go to the Black Creek trail to get in some good overnight hiking trips. 
                       
                      Phil
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 9:45 AM
                      Subject: RE: [BackpackGearTest] Digest Number 94

                      I'm interested in testing a filter. I hike here in Louisiana, and the water is often stagnant or at best barely flowing. Sources are often flowing through places where wild horses graze and there is most likely fecees (sp?) in the water and possibly chemicals from agriculture. I have been packing potable water and only doing short trips while contemplating finally breaking down and getting a filter. I'm an iodine only guy for years.
                       
                      I would definitely put it through some paces here with this water and my desire for a multi day backcountry trip.
                       
                      Is it an in-line, pump, gravity, or what?
                       
                      Ernest Engman


                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      backpackgeartest-unsubscribe@egroups.com


                    • WSMurdoch@aol.com
                      In a message dated 1/15/01 10:05:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Does the FDA approve backpacking water filters/purifiers ? I could not find anything about
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 20, 2001
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                        In a message dated 1/15/01 10:05:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                        orangebug74@... writes:


                        Assuming the company has gotten FDA material for premarketing tests


                        Does the FDA approve backpacking water filters/purifiers ?  I could not find
                        anything about it using the search engine on their web site:
                        http://www.fda.gov/search.html, but I am not the best of searchers.  I though
                        there might be a list of approved filters and some indication of the results
                        of the testing.

                        The CDC has a web page on purifying water that seems authoritative.  It has a
                        link to filters tested by the NSF.  Their testing is limited to the removal
                        of protozoa (Giardia and Cryptosporidium), but not for their ability to
                        remove bacteria or viruses.

                        I like the idea of third party testing of backpacking filters (and chemical
                        treatments) for effectiveness.  Does any organization do that sort of testing
                        or are we left relying of the integrity of the manufacturers ?

                        Bill Murdoch

                      • Gear Tester
                        As I understand it, Ryan s lab will be testing filters for effectiveness and publishing the results in a near future issue of BackpackingLight.com. Jerry ...
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jan 21, 2001
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                          As I understand it, Ryan's lab will be testing filters for effectiveness and publishing the results in a near future issue of BackpackingLight.com.
                          Jerry
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 7:34 PM
                          Subject: Re: [BackpackGearTest] Digest Number 94

                          In a message dated 1/15/01 10:05:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                          orangebug74@... writes:


                          I like the idea of third party testing of backpacking filters (and chemical
                          treatments) for effectiveness.  Does any organization do that sort of testing
                          or are we left relying of the integrity of the manufacturers ?

                          Bill Murdoch

                        • Jack Voss
                          Bill Murdoch asked, ... Does any organization do that sort of testing or are we left relying on the integrity of the manufacturers? Jerry s response, As I
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jan 21, 2001
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                            Bill Murdoch asked, "... Does any organization do that sort of testing or are we left relying on the integrity of the manufacturers?"

                            Jerry's response, "As I understand it, Ryan's lab will be testing filters for effectiveness and publishing the results in a near future issue of BackpackingLight.com."

                            I'm glad to hear this. I have always either drunk the local water straight (maybe mixed with some Scotch), or trusted my Pur filter. When hiking, camping, panning the sierra Nevadas I just dipped it up and drank it. Haven't died yet. But, that was over 30 years ago. Not sure what the water there is like now.

                            Test results from an independent lab would surely lend some credence to manufacturer's ads and instruction booklets. After reading the ads etc., I bought a Pur water treater thingey-do because I figured if I was going to ere with drinking water, I wanted to err on the side of safety. I had already enjoyed all the "intestinal upset" I could stand in Nam. Didn't want to enjoy any more.

                            As I see it, the combination of a democratic form of government and a capitalistic economy provide us so many choices, that we are virtually boggled by the variety. I don't think that oppressive societies in some other large countries I could site, could either produce the variety and quality we see here, nor invite gaggles of unwashed peasants (such as us) to test and openly report results.

                            This is such a unique opportunity, that we may lose sight of just how unique it really is. Huddled masses (male & female, old & young, experienced and tenderfoot, highly educated and self-taught) yearning to speak freely about the plethora of consumer goods. Think about it, folks; think about it.

                            Keep your paddle wet and your powder dry.

                            Kayak Jack
                            Doing what you like is FREEDOM
                            Liking what you do is HAPPINESS
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