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Hennessy trip report

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  • j.willis@evergreenaviation.com
    I have good news for any Hennessy users who are contemplating using their hammock in cold (weel, cold for me) weather. Went with my sons Boy Scout Troop on a
    Message 1 of 30 , Nov 19, 2001
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      I have good news for any Hennessy users who are contemplating using
      their hammock in cold (weel, cold for me) weather.

      Went with my sons' Boy Scout Troop on a hike/campout in the Jefferson
      Wilderness in Oregon. Temp Sat night dropped to 20F. I am estatic to
      report that I slept better in my HH Expedition than I have in any of
      my tents, at any temperature. Hated to have to get up Sun morning, I
      was so comfy. I followed Tom's suggestion and made a pad using fleece
      sewn to a 2' x 6' length of reflectix with a car windshield aluminized
      reflector in between. Friday night the pad shifted at the head end
      from side to side, but didn't slide the other way (head-foot). Didn't
      have that problem Sat night, tho - everything stayed in place.

      The pad probably contributed to the warmth, but I think what really
      did it was the fleece jacket and pants.

      I slept inside my bag rather than having it on me. If I had placed it
      on me, like a quilt, I probably would have needed a wider pad so that
      I wouldn't be touching the hammock's cold sides. It rolled up into a
      9" dia roll and took up way too much room in my pack. Will probably
      strap it on the outside after this. Would hate to think how big a roll
      it would be if I had made the pad 40" wide, then folded lengthwise,
      and rolled up.

      On a different topic, but related to this trip: My double-wall soda
      can alcohol stove worked great. Boiled 2 cups of water in ten minutes.

      Overall...very pleased all around with the hammock and the stove.
    • cstarnes@nehp.net
      Thats good to hear J. We hammock users have been spoiled with the comfort and were nervous about returning to the ground in cold weather. I made my pad 43
      Message 2 of 30 , Nov 19, 2001
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        Thats good to hear J. We hammock users have been spoiled with the
        comfort and were nervous about returning to the ground in cold
        weather. I made my pad 43 inches wide and it does take up quite a bit
        of space in my pack but I like to look like I have a 40# load when in
        fact it is only 25 to 30. I may experiment with a slightly smaller
        pad though say around 36 inches because my pad as it is sticks up a
        few inches past each sholder. Thanks for the input and keep us posted.

        Coy Boy

        --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., j.willis@e... wrote:
        > I have good news for any Hennessy users who are contemplating using
        > their hammock in cold (weel, cold for me) weather.
        >
        > Went with my sons' Boy Scout Troop on a hike/campout in the
        Jefferson
        > Wilderness in Oregon. Temp Sat night dropped to 20F. I am estatic
        to
        > report that I slept better in my HH Expedition than I have in any
        of
        > my tents, at any temperature. Hated to have to get up Sun morning,
        I
        > was so comfy. I followed Tom's suggestion and made a pad using
        fleece
        > sewn to a 2' x 6' length of reflectix with a car windshield
        aluminized
        > reflector in between. Friday night the pad shifted at the head end
        > from side to side, but didn't slide the other way (head-foot).
        Didn't
        > have that problem Sat night, tho - everything stayed in place.
        >
        > The pad probably contributed to the warmth, but I think what really
        > did it was the fleece jacket and pants.
        >
        > I slept inside my bag rather than having it on me. If I had placed
        it
        > on me, like a quilt, I probably would have needed a wider pad so
        that
        > I wouldn't be touching the hammock's cold sides. It rolled up into
        a
        > 9" dia roll and took up way too much room in my pack. Will probably
        > strap it on the outside after this. Would hate to think how big a
        roll
        > it would be if I had made the pad 40" wide, then folded lengthwise,
        > and rolled up.
        >
        > On a different topic, but related to this trip: My double-wall soda
        > can alcohol stove worked great. Boiled 2 cups of water in ten
        minutes.
        >
        > Overall...very pleased all around with the hammock and the stove.
      • John Finston
        J. I really enjoyed your report. I have been trying several alternative forms of insulation (see my report in the Hennessy Original File) including a mylar
        Message 3 of 30 , Nov 20, 2001
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          J.

          I really enjoyed your report. I have been trying several alternative
          forms of insulation (see my report in the Hennessy Original File)
          including a mylar space blanket, thermarest and closed cell foam
          pad. So far I am most satisfied with the thermarest because if it
          shifts I can shift it back into place. I found that the closed cell
          foam, when weighted down with my body, was almost impossible to
          realign.

          When the reflectix pad shifted from side to side were you able to
          reposition it? Also I have used 3/4 length pads and have not had any
          significant problems with my legs getting cold (I also wear heavy
          socks and thermal underwear). The shorter length is less bulky and
          also makes it easier to get into the hammock. Have you tried a
          shorter length?

          Finally, having moved to the SF bay area from Oregon, I certainly
          miss the great hiking areas, green mountains and landscapes of
          Oregon, especially the Jefferson wilderness. I hope to get up there
          next year for a trip with my 11 year old son. I will be bringing my
          Hennessy because, like you, once I experienced the comfort of the HH,
          its difficult to imagine sleeping on the ground again.


          --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., j.willis@e... wrote:
          > I have good news for any Hennessy users who are contemplating using
          > their hammock in cold (weel, cold for me) weather.
          >
          > Went with my sons' Boy Scout Troop on a hike/campout in the
          Jefferson
          > Wilderness in Oregon. Temp Sat night dropped to 20F. I am estatic
          to
          > report that I slept better in my HH Expedition than I have in any
          of
          > my tents, at any temperature. Hated to have to get up Sun morning,
          I
          > was so comfy. I followed Tom's suggestion and made a pad using
          fleece
          > sewn to a 2' x 6' length of reflectix with a car windshield
          aluminized
          > reflector in between. Friday night the pad shifted at the head end
          > from side to side, but didn't slide the other way (head-foot).
          Didn't
          > have that problem Sat night, tho - everything stayed in place.
          >
          > The pad probably contributed to the warmth, but I think what really
          > did it was the fleece jacket and pants.
          >
          > I slept inside my bag rather than having it on me. If I had placed
          it
          > on me, like a quilt, I probably would have needed a wider pad so
          that
          > I wouldn't be touching the hammock's cold sides. It rolled up into
          a
          > 9" dia roll and took up way too much room in my pack. Will probably
          > strap it on the outside after this. Would hate to think how big a
          roll
          > it would be if I had made the pad 40" wide, then folded lengthwise,
          > and rolled up.
          >
          > On a different topic, but related to this trip: My double-wall soda
          > can alcohol stove worked great. Boiled 2 cups of water in ten
          minutes.
          >
          > Overall...very pleased all around with the hammock and the stove.
        • Jay Willis
          Hi John, ... On my next outing I think I will try my thermarest instead of my pad. The trouble with my reflectix/windshield reflector/fleece pad was that,
          Message 4 of 30 , Nov 20, 2001
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            Hi John,



            John Finston wrote:

            > So far I am most satisfied with the thermarest

            On my next outing I think I will try my thermarest instead of my pad. The
            trouble with my reflectix/windshield reflector/fleece pad was that, besides
            being much too thick when rolled up, the fleece tended to cling to my bag,
            making it a hassle to get it back in place when it shifted during the night.

            > because if it shifts I can shift it back into place.

            Exactly.

            > When the reflectix pad shifted from side to side were you able to
            > reposition it?

            No. I had to get up anyway to answer nature's call. And repositioned it when
            I got back.

            > The shorter length is less bulky and also makes it easier to get into the
            > hammock. Have you tried a shorter length?

            No, mine's the full length. But I don't mind. If it doesn't behave I'll get
            the 3/4 length one.

            > Finally, having moved to the SF bay area from Oregon,

            We may have passed eachother - I did just the opposite.

            > I certainly miss the great hiking areas, green mountains and landscapes of
            > Oregon, especially the Jefferson wilderness.

            Beauty that is hard to describe.

            > ...once I experienced the comfort of the HH, its difficult to imagine
            > sleeping on the ground again.

            I, for one, have seen the light and will never go back.

            As I said, John, I think the key was the fleece jacket and pants I was
            wearing. With polys underneath.

            As much as I enjoy the Hennessy, the Clark looks interesting, with the
            ability to unzip the mesh so that you can easily just flop down and read a
            book, or just to relax. The Hennessy is probably more stable on entry/exit
            since you do it from the bottom. Maybe Tom might consider adding a zipper on
            one side for when you just want to take a siesta after a long day's hike. ;-)

            Happy hammocking,
            Jay
          • Tom Hennessy
            ... John and Jay I got carried away with reflector info in the previous email and forgot to mention that the HH, when folded in half from one side, now works
            Message 5 of 30 , Nov 20, 2001
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              on 11/20/01 5:31 PM, Jay Willis at j.willis@... wrote:

              > Hi John,
              >
              >
              >
              > John Finston wrote:
              >
              >> So far I am most satisfied with the thermarest
              >
              > On my next outing I think I will try my thermarest instead of my pad. The
              > trouble with my reflectix/windshield reflector/fleece pad was that, besides
              > being much too thick when rolled up, the fleece tended to cling to my bag,
              > making it a hassle to get it back in place when it shifted during the night.
              >
              >> because if it shifts I can shift it back into place.
              >
              > Exactly.
              >
              >> When the reflectix pad shifted from side to side were you able to
              >> reposition it?
              >
              > No. I had to get up anyway to answer nature's call. And repositioned it when
              > I got back.
              >
              >> The shorter length is less bulky and also makes it easier to get into the
              >> hammock. Have you tried a shorter length?
              >
              > No, mine's the full length. But I don't mind. If it doesn't behave I'll get
              > the 3/4 length one.
              >
              >> Finally, having moved to the SF bay area from Oregon,
              >
              > We may have passed eachother - I did just the opposite.
              >
              >> I certainly miss the great hiking areas, green mountains and landscapes of
              >> Oregon, especially the Jefferson wilderness.
              >
              > Beauty that is hard to describe.
              >
              >> ...once I experienced the comfort of the HH, its difficult to imagine
              >> sleeping on the ground again.
              >
              > I, for one, have seen the light and will never go back.
              >
              > As I said, John, I think the key was the fleece jacket and pants I was
              > wearing. With polys underneath.
              >
              > As much as I enjoy the Hennessy, the Clark looks interesting, with the
              > ability to unzip the mesh so that you can easily just flop down and read a
              > book, or just to relax. The Hennessy is probably more stable on entry/exit
              > since you do it from the bottom. Maybe Tom might consider adding a zipper on
              > one side for when you just want to take a siesta after a long day's hike. ;-)
              >
              > Happy hammocking,
              > Jay
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              John and Jay

              I got carried away with reflector info in the previous email and forgot to
              mention that the HH, when folded in half from one side, now works as a
              comfortable lounge chair, either sitting or laying down outside the netting
              without the cost/worry of a zipper. John Nigeboer of from Alberta
              discovered this on a camping trip last year. Equally good news, the HH also
              works as a tent. You gotta see this! See these on the web site at
              www.hennessyhammock.com

              Cheers, Tom Hennessy
            • Tom Hennessy
              ... Hello John and Jay I am following your adventures with the HH and the radiant reflector experiments with much interest. With your help, I hope to produce
              Message 6 of 30 , Nov 20, 2001
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                on 11/20/01 5:31 PM, Jay Willis at j.willis@... wrote:

                > Hi John,
                >
                >
                >
                > John Finston wrote:
                >
                >> So far I am most satisfied with the thermarest
                >
                > On my next outing I think I will try my thermarest instead of my pad. The
                > trouble with my reflectix/windshield reflector/fleece pad was that, besides
                > being much too thick when rolled up, the fleece tended to cling to my bag,
                > making it a hassle to get it back in place when it shifted during the night.
                >
                >> because if it shifts I can shift it back into place.
                >
                > Exactly.
                >
                >> When the reflectix pad shifted from side to side were you able to
                >> reposition it?
                >
                > No. I had to get up anyway to answer nature's call. And repositioned it when
                > I got back.
                >
                >> The shorter length is less bulky and also makes it easier to get into the
                >> hammock. Have you tried a shorter length?
                >
                > No, mine's the full length. But I don't mind. If it doesn't behave I'll get
                > the 3/4 length one.
                >
                >> Finally, having moved to the SF bay area from Oregon,
                >
                > We may have passed eachother - I did just the opposite.
                >
                >> I certainly miss the great hiking areas, green mountains and landscapes of
                >> Oregon, especially the Jefferson wilderness.
                >
                > Beauty that is hard to describe.
                >
                >> ...once I experienced the comfort of the HH, its difficult to imagine
                >> sleeping on the ground again.
                >
                > I, for one, have seen the light and will never go back.
                >
                > As I said, John, I think the key was the fleece jacket and pants I was
                > wearing. With polys underneath.
                >
                > As much as I enjoy the Hennessy, the Clark looks interesting, with the
                > ability to unzip the mesh so that you can easily just flop down and read a
                > book, or just to relax. The Hennessy is probably more stable on entry/exit
                > since you do it from the bottom. Maybe Tom might consider adding a zipper on
                > one side for when you just want to take a siesta after a long day's hike. ;-)
                >
                > Happy hammocking,
                > Jay
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                Hello John and Jay

                I am following your adventures with the HH and the radiant reflector
                experiments with much interest. With your help, I hope to produce the
                lightest, cheapest and most efficient pad system for the HH possible.

                In my recent experiment posted to this site, I used a 40" wide piece of
                Reflectix which did not shift for me, I think, because of it's width. I
                have found that conventional, narrow tent pads do not like being bent out
                of shape and are essentially loaded springs waiting for an opportunity to
                pop out from under you. They were designed to lay flat on the ground. The
                wider aluminum foil covered refletix pad actually conforms to the shape of
                the hammock and holds that shape even when the hammock is not occupied.

                It seems to me that if you are wearing a fleece jacket and pants that you
                may not need fleece fabric attached to the radiant reflector which would
                solve the grabbing problem of the fleece attached to the reflector. Or if
                you are using my reflectic-fleece system, you might want to wear a less
                grabby fabric which would move more easily against the fleece attached to
                the relector.

                My thinking to date on what this pad system would look like is this:

                A piece of reflectix approximately five feet long and about 36 to 40" wide
                from shoulder to below the elbow then tapering to 18-24" at the foot end. A
                piece of fleece sewn to the perimeter and also two rows of stitching 6" or
                8' in from each side parallel to the centerline forming a pocket into which
                could be inserted an auto windshield reflector pad or any other additional
                insulation which would be available such as extra clothing, newspaper, moss,
                leaves etc in an emergency. This makes a variable weight, four season pad.

                You won't need a pad longer than 5 feet if you are using a pillow. I used
                to use a lump of clothing for a pillow but now I really like my radiant
                reflecting, fleece covered air pillow made from a wine box bladder and a
                home made fleece pillow cover. It is completely adjustable elevation-wise,
                radiant reflective which warms and conforms perfectly to my shoulder, neck
                and face.

                Keep up the feedback and remember "Perfection is a direction"

                Cheers, Tom Hennessy
              • richard.dreher@jacobs.com
                Jay, I can tell you that when I tried a T-rest (a first generation 3/4 length ultralight) in the Hennessy it wouldn t stop squirting out from under me during
                Message 7 of 30 , Nov 21, 2001
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                  Jay,

                  I can tell you that when I tried a T-rest (a first generation 3/4
                  length ultralight) in the Hennessy it wouldn't stop squirting out
                  from under me during the night. It might be that the newer Staytek
                  fabric models won't slide around as much (if you flip them over), but
                  I haven't tried that myself. I've switched to a simple full-length
                  foam pad, which seems to be plenty warm down to the mid-40s. Haven't
                  been in colder conditions than that yet.

                  Good luck with your further experiments.

                  --Rick

                  > On my next outing I think I will try my thermarest instead of my
                  pad. The
                  > trouble with my reflectix/windshield reflector/fleece pad was that,
                  besides
                  > being much too thick when rolled up, the fleece tended to cling to
                  my bag,
                  > making it a hassle to get it back in place when it shifted during
                  the night.
                  >
                  > > because if it shifts I can shift it back into place.
                  >
                  > Exactly.
                  >
                  > > When the reflectix pad shifted from side to side were you able to
                  > > reposition it?
                  >
                  > No. I had to get up anyway to answer nature's call. And
                  repositioned it when
                  > I got back.
                  >
                  > > The shorter length is less bulky and also makes it easier to get
                  into the
                  > > hammock. Have you tried a shorter length?
                  >
                  > No, mine's the full length. But I don't mind. If it doesn't behave
                  I'll get
                  > the 3/4 length one.
                  >
                  > > Finally, having moved to the SF bay area from Oregon,
                  >
                  > We may have passed eachother - I did just the opposite.
                  >
                  > > I certainly miss the great hiking areas, green mountains and
                  landscapes of
                  > > Oregon, especially the Jefferson wilderness.
                  >
                  > Beauty that is hard to describe.
                  >
                  > > ...once I experienced the comfort of the HH, its difficult to
                  imagine
                  > > sleeping on the ground again.
                  >
                  > I, for one, have seen the light and will never go back.
                  >
                  > As I said, John, I think the key was the fleece jacket and pants I
                  was
                  > wearing. With polys underneath.
                  >
                  > As much as I enjoy the Hennessy, the Clark looks interesting, with
                  the
                  > ability to unzip the mesh so that you can easily just flop down and
                  read a
                  > book, or just to relax. The Hennessy is probably more stable on
                  entry/exit
                  > since you do it from the bottom. Maybe Tom might consider adding a
                  zipper on
                  > one side for when you just want to take a siesta after a long day's
                  hike. ;-)
                  >
                  > Happy hammocking,
                  > Jay
                • Jay Willis
                  Rick, how thick was your foam pad?
                  Message 8 of 30 , Nov 21, 2001
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                    Rick, how thick was your foam pad?

                    richard.dreher@... wrote:

                    > Jay,
                    >
                    > I can tell you that when I tried a T-rest (a first generation 3/4
                    > length ultralight) in the Hennessy it wouldn't stop squirting out
                    > from under me during the night. It might be that the newer Staytek
                    > fabric models won't slide around as much (if you flip them over), but
                    > I haven't tried that myself. I've switched to a simple full-length
                    > foam pad, which seems to be plenty warm down to the mid-40s. Haven't
                    > been in colder conditions than that yet.
                    >
                    > Good luck with your further experiments.
                    >
                    > --Rick
                    >
                  • julrich@stny.rr.com
                    ... the ... possible. ... 40 wide ... foot end. A ... stitching 6 or ... into which ... additional ... newspaper, moss, ... season pad. ... I used ...
                    Message 9 of 30 , Nov 21, 2001
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                      --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., Tom Hennessy <hennessyhammock@g...>
                      wrote:
                      > on 11/20/01 5:31 PM, Jay Willis at j.willis@e... wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello John and Jay
                      >
                      > I am following your adventures with the HH and the radiant reflector
                      > experiments with much interest. With your help, I hope to produce
                      the
                      > lightest, cheapest and most efficient pad system for the HH
                      possible.
                      >
                      > My thinking to date on what this pad system would look like is this:
                      >
                      > A piece of reflectix approximately five feet long and about 36 to
                      40" wide
                      > from shoulder to below the elbow then tapering to 18-24" at the
                      foot end. A
                      > piece of fleece sewn to the perimeter and also two rows of
                      stitching 6" or
                      > 8' in from each side parallel to the centerline forming a pocket
                      into which
                      > could be inserted an auto windshield reflector pad or any other
                      additional
                      > insulation which would be available such as extra clothing,
                      newspaper, moss,
                      > leaves etc in an emergency. This makes a variable weight, four
                      season pad.
                      >
                      > You won't need a pad longer than 5 feet if you are using a pillow.
                      I used
                      > to use a lump of clothing for a pillow but now I really like my
                      radiant
                      > reflecting, fleece covered air pillow made from a wine box bladder
                      and a
                      > home made fleece pillow cover. It is completely adjustable
                      elevation-wise,
                      > radiant reflective which warms and conforms perfectly to my
                      shoulder, neck
                      > and face.
                      >
                      > Keep up the feedback and remember "Perfection is a direction"
                      >
                      > Cheers, Tom Hennessy

                      Tom,

                      When you're done playing, or to a point when you want some beta
                      testers, I'm more than willing to sign up!!

                      Joe
                    • Tom Hennessy
                      ... Hello Joe When I think I ve got it figured out, I ll definately ask jerry to set up the tests. Hope you get selected. Cheers, Tom Hennessy
                      Message 10 of 30 , Nov 21, 2001
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                        on 11/21/01 6:21 PM, julrich@... at julrich@... wrote:

                        > --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., Tom Hennessy <hennessyhammock@g...>
                        > wrote:
                        >> on 11/20/01 5:31 PM, Jay Willis at j.willis@e... wrote:
                        >>
                        >> Hello John and Jay
                        >>
                        >> I am following your adventures with the HH and the radiant reflector
                        >> experiments with much interest. With your help, I hope to produce
                        > the
                        >> lightest, cheapest and most efficient pad system for the HH
                        > possible.
                        >>
                        >> My thinking to date on what this pad system would look like is this:
                        >>
                        >> A piece of reflectix approximately five feet long and about 36 to
                        > 40" wide
                        >> from shoulder to below the elbow then tapering to 18-24" at the
                        > foot end. A
                        >> piece of fleece sewn to the perimeter and also two rows of
                        > stitching 6" or
                        >> 8' in from each side parallel to the centerline forming a pocket
                        > into which
                        >> could be inserted an auto windshield reflector pad or any other
                        > additional
                        >> insulation which would be available such as extra clothing,
                        > newspaper, moss,
                        >> leaves etc in an emergency. This makes a variable weight, four
                        > season pad.
                        >>
                        >> You won't need a pad longer than 5 feet if you are using a pillow.
                        > I used
                        >> to use a lump of clothing for a pillow but now I really like my
                        > radiant
                        >> reflecting, fleece covered air pillow made from a wine box bladder
                        > and a
                        >> home made fleece pillow cover. It is completely adjustable
                        > elevation-wise,
                        >> radiant reflective which warms and conforms perfectly to my
                        > shoulder, neck
                        >> and face.
                        >>
                        >> Keep up the feedback and remember "Perfection is a direction"
                        >>
                        >> Cheers, Tom Hennessy
                        >
                        > Tom,
                        >
                        > When you're done playing, or to a point when you want some beta
                        > testers, I'm more than willing to sign up!!
                        >
                        > Joe
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        Hello Joe

                        When I think I've got it figured out, I'll definately ask jerry to set up
                        the tests. Hope you get selected.

                        Cheers, Tom Hennessy
                      • richard.dreher@jacobs.com
                        Hi Jay, It s 1/2-inch thick, 24-inches wide, full length (72 inches?). It rolls to a plump 7 inches diameter and weighs 11 ounces. There s plenty of trimming
                        Message 11 of 30 , Nov 22, 2001
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                          Hi Jay,

                          It's 1/2-inch thick, 24-inches wide, full length (72 inches?). It
                          rolls to a plump 7 inches diameter and weighs 11 ounces. There's
                          plenty of trimming to be done--I imagine I can get it down to 8 or 9
                          ounces with little trouble. It's made of EVA foam and simply
                          said "made in England" on it--no brand. Got it at REI.

                          --Rick

                          --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., Jay Willis <j.willis@e...> wrote:
                          > Rick, how thick was your foam pad?
                          >
                          > richard.dreher@j... wrote:
                          >
                          > > Jay,
                          > >
                          > > I can tell you that when I tried a T-rest (a first generation 3/4
                          > > length ultralight) in the Hennessy it wouldn't stop squirting out
                          > > from under me during the night. It might be that the newer Staytek
                          > > fabric models won't slide around as much (if you flip them over),
                          but
                          > > I haven't tried that myself. I've switched to a simple full-length
                          > > foam pad, which seems to be plenty warm down to the mid-40s.
                          Haven't
                          > > been in colder conditions than that yet.
                          > >
                          > > Good luck with your further experiments.
                          > >
                          > > --Rick
                          > >
                        • gcoledrph
                          Hi, Tom: I spent pretty much all last winter experimenting with different thicknesses of Reflectix and closed cell foam for use in the HH. I did subjective
                          Message 12 of 30 , Nov 23, 2001
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                            Hi, Tom:

                            I spent pretty much all last winter experimenting with different thicknesses
                            of Reflectix and closed cell foam for use in the HH. I did subjective field
                            tests and objective bench tests (using a homemade hot box and a remote
                            thermometer). I found that both objectively and subjectively, Reflectix
                            conducts more heat than closed cell foam, controlling for weight and surface
                            area. This is probably due to the large cell (bubble) sizes of the
                            Reflectix as compared to the cosed cell foam. I also found that closed cell
                            foam is more durable than Reflectix over time.

                            Given it's weight and flexibility, I found that Bevalite foam (available in
                            40" X 80" sheets from Outdoor Wilderness Fabrics) is ideal for use in the
                            HH, although it is not cheap. The old stand-by blue foam pads from Campmor
                            and REI are almost as good.

                            I use a single 3/8" piece of Bevalite in the pad pocket of my modified RAB,
                            and for me it's proven good down to about 32 degrees. Cut to shape it
                            weighs about 10 ounces. My all-out winter set-up for use in the pad pocket
                            of my FF Great Auk is two 1/2" inch pieces of Bevalite with a sheet of mylar
                            space blanket sandwiched between them. I have yet to find the lower limit
                            of this set-up, although I live in the Southeast US and haven't encountered
                            any serious sub-zero temperatures yet.

                            George


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                          • Tom Hennessy
                            ... Hello George THis is the kind of info that I was hoping for, thanks a lot! What % more efficient is the Beavalite than the Reflectix? I would like to
                            Message 13 of 30 , Nov 23, 2001
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                              on 11/23/01 3:55 AM, gcoledrph at gcoledrph@... wrote:

                              > Hi, Tom:
                              >
                              > I spent pretty much all last winter experimenting with different thicknesses
                              > of Reflectix and closed cell foam for use in the HH. I did subjective field
                              > tests and objective bench tests (using a homemade hot box and a remote
                              > thermometer). I found that both objectively and subjectively, Reflectix
                              > conducts more heat than closed cell foam, controlling for weight and surface
                              > area. This is probably due to the large cell (bubble) sizes of the
                              > Reflectix as compared to the cosed cell foam. I also found that closed cell
                              > foam is more durable than Reflectix over time.
                              >
                              > Given it's weight and flexibility, I found that Bevalite foam (available in
                              > 40" X 80" sheets from Outdoor Wilderness Fabrics) is ideal for use in the
                              > HH, although it is not cheap. The old stand-by blue foam pads from Campmor
                              > and REI are almost as good.
                              >
                              > I use a single 3/8" piece of Bevalite in the pad pocket of my modified RAB,
                              > and for me it's proven good down to about 32 degrees. Cut to shape it
                              > weighs about 10 ounces. My all-out winter set-up for use in the pad pocket
                              > of my FF Great Auk is two 1/2" inch pieces of Bevalite with a sheet of mylar
                              > space blanket sandwiched between them. I have yet to find the lower limit
                              > of this set-up, although I live in the Southeast US and haven't encountered
                              > any serious sub-zero temperatures yet.
                              >
                              > George
                              >
                              >
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                              >
                              Hello George

                              THis is the kind of info that I was hoping for, thanks a lot! What % more
                              efficient is the Beavalite than the Reflectix? I would like to know more
                              about your experiments. Do you have any results on paper Just wondering if
                              reflectix's other quality like form fitting would offset the difference in
                              efficiency. Sounds like you are happy with a regular sleeping bag width
                              foam pad. Have you had any problems with cold shoulders against the
                              hammock? Would you use a wider pad if it fit your sleeping bag? I have
                              heard of Everest climbers using a pad sandwich similiar to yours. I wonder
                              how the foam in the windshield reflecftor compares in efficiency to Bevalite
                              foam. If it is close, then maybe one,two or three windshield pads would be
                              more flexible, wider and incorporate more radiant materials. What do you
                              think?

                              Cheers, Tom Hennessy
                            • cstarnes@nehp.net
                              George I looked at OWF web page and couldn t find Bevalite Is this the same place and if so what is it under? http://www.owfinc.com/ Thanks Coy Boy ...
                              Message 14 of 30 , Nov 24, 2001
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                                George

                                I looked at OWF web page and couldn't find "Bevalite" Is this the
                                same place and if so what is it under?
                                http://www.owfinc.com/
                                Thanks

                                Coy Boy

                                --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., "gcoledrph" <gcoledrph@n...> wrote:
                                > Hi, Tom:
                                >
                                > I spent pretty much all last winter experimenting with different
                                thicknesses
                                > of Reflectix and closed cell foam for use in the HH. I did
                                subjective field
                                > tests and objective bench tests (using a homemade hot box and a
                                remote
                                > thermometer). I found that both objectively and subjectively,
                                Reflectix
                                > conducts more heat than closed cell foam, controlling for weight
                                and surface
                                > area. This is probably due to the large cell (bubble) sizes of the
                                > Reflectix as compared to the cosed cell foam. I also found that
                                closed cell
                                > foam is more durable than Reflectix over time.
                                >
                                > Given it's weight and flexibility, I found that Bevalite foam
                                (available in
                                > 40" X 80" sheets from Outdoor Wilderness Fabrics) is ideal for use
                                in the
                                > HH, although it is not cheap. The old stand-by blue foam pads from
                                Campmor
                                > and REI are almost as good.
                                >
                                > I use a single 3/8" piece of Bevalite in the pad pocket of my
                                modified RAB,
                                > and for me it's proven good down to about 32 degrees. Cut to shape
                                it
                                > weighs about 10 ounces. My all-out winter set-up for use in the
                                pad pocket
                                > of my FF Great Auk is two 1/2" inch pieces of Bevalite with a sheet
                                of mylar
                                > space blanket sandwiched between them. I have yet to find the
                                lower limit
                                > of this set-up, although I live in the Southeast US and haven't
                                encountered
                                > any serious sub-zero temperatures yet.
                                >
                                > George
                                >
                                >
                                > ----------------------------------------------------
                                > Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today
                                > Only $9.95 per month!
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                              • gcoledrph
                                ... to know more about your experiments. Do you have any results on paper
                                Message 15 of 30 , Nov 26, 2001
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                                  Hi again, Tom:

                                  >>What % more efficient is the Beavalite than the Reflectix? I would like
                                  to know more about your experiments. Do you have any results on paper <<

                                  I would hesitate to place too much faith in the accuracy of the numbers that
                                  resulted from my tests. I don't think my methods were all that pristine or
                                  defendable.

                                  What I did was construct a small plastic box that I carefully sealed and
                                  insulated. This box had provisions for suspending a light bulb inside. Then
                                  I experimented with different wattages of bulb until I found one that kept
                                  the interior of the box at a consistent 95 degrees when the box was
                                  suspended eighteen inches off the floor in the middle of a closed, unheated
                                  room that stayed at about 60 degrees. I used an off-the-shelf digital
                                  thermometer with two zone sensors and a remote readout. Then I cut a 12" by
                                  12" section out of the bottom of the box.

                                  My tests consisted of first matching by weight different 12" by 12" panels
                                  of insulating material. For example, when I tested 5/16" Reflectix I
                                  layered pieces of 1/8" closed cell foam until I got the weight of the panels
                                  roughly equal. Then, successively, I sealed each panel over the hole in
                                  the box and measured the interior temperature of the box at different
                                  outside temperatures (~25 degrees to ~55 degrees).

                                  Again, I am not confident that this method can be trusted to yield accurate
                                  numbers or that these numbers can quantifiably predict the heat loss of
                                  larger samples of material. However, I did find that a 12" by 12" closed
                                  cell foam panel kept the air inside the box significantly warmer than a 12"
                                  by 12" Reflectix panel. Subjectively, I duplicated these results by (not)
                                  sleeping in the HH with weight-matched closed cell foam pads and Reflectix
                                  pads. The closed cell pads were consistently, noticeably warmer, when
                                  clothing, bag, temperature and humidity were kept constant.

                                  >>other quality like form fitting would offset the difference in
                                  efficiency.<<

                                  I settled on Bevalite (now sold as FY 20 by OWF) because it offered the best
                                  combination of flexibility and light weight. I needed a pad that was stiff
                                  enough to insert into the sleeping bag's pad pocket but flexible enough to
                                  mold to my body when in the HH. Bevalite was the best, and can be purchased
                                  from OWF long enough to completely fill the 76" length of my RAB and FF pad
                                  pockets. The Bevalite is also pretty durable and retains it's volume well.

                                  >>Sounds like you are happy with a regular sleeping bag width foam pad. Have
                                  you had any problems with cold shoulders against the hammock? Would
                                  you use a wider pad if it fit your sleeping bag?<<

                                  The pad pocket on my RAB is about 22 inches wide. It's about 20 inches wide
                                  on the FF. My shoulders are about 18.5 inches wide when not rounded and
                                  compressed by the HH. Mostly, I sleep on my back with my arms crossed over
                                  my chest, and I have not had problems with cold shoulders in either bag,
                                  even at +10F. In addition, I use whatever ground pad I'm carrying as the
                                  "tubular suspension" of my pack, and 20" wide works best for that, with 22"
                                  being about maximum. A 20" wide pad allows me to get two pads out one 40"
                                  by 80" sheet of Bevalite, and, as I said before, the stuff ain't cheap.
                                  Reflectix does have a huge advantage if cost is the major issue.

                                  >> I have heard of Everest climbers using a pad sandwich similar to yours.
                                  I wonder how the foam in the windshield reflector compares in efficiency to
                                  Bevalite foam. If it is close, then maybe one, two or three windshield pads
                                  would be more flexible, wider and incorporate more radiant materials. What
                                  do you
                                  think?<<

                                  Couldn't say, but I do know different types of closed cell foam differ in
                                  thermal (conductive) efficiency due to construction (cell size, type of
                                  material, type of gas) as well as thickness. You might gain something from
                                  multiple radiant barriers, but radiant body heat loss is not near as
                                  critical as conductive heat loss. That's probably why closed cell foam is
                                  more efficient than Reflectix, anyway. Reflectix is kind of like a closed
                                  cell foam that's constructed using a single thickness of very large cells.
                                  Although this is probably an oversimplification, as I understand it a large
                                  cell transfers more heat than multiple small cells because of internal
                                  convection.

                                  I've been impressed by how warm the 1" Bevalite-space blanket sandwich is.
                                  I think most of it's efficiency is due to the foam. However, it probably
                                  helps that the metallized space blanket material (which is not only a good
                                  heat reflector but is also a good (bad) heat conductor) is held far enough
                                  away from the body by the top pad's dead air space to work well as a
                                  reflector, and at the same time is protected by the bottom pad from being
                                  directly exposed to the cold. A sandwich would probably work pretty well
                                  using other thicknesses of foam.. Maybe two 1/8" pads with a space blanket
                                  sewn between them?

                                  I've also found that it helps to minimize the amount of air that circulates
                                  under the HH when it's cold. I use a custom 8' by 10' fly that acts like
                                  the side walls of a tent when the sides are tethered as vertically as
                                  possible. I also hang the HH low, and use my poncho or a snow wall to block
                                  breezes on the up-wind side. I'm experimenting with some other simple
                                  adaptations to try to cut down on air circulation beneath the hammock.

                                  Good luck with your R and D. The HH is a great product.

                                  George



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                                • John Finston
                                  Tom, Your ideas about an insulating pad are interesting. Like most people trying different combinations of pads, I have also experienced the shifting pad
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Nov 27, 2001
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                                    Tom,

                                    Your ideas about an insulating pad are interesting. Like most people
                                    trying different combinations of pads, I have also experienced the
                                    shifting pad problem. I think one solution might be to attach the
                                    head end of the pad to the end of the hammock. This would prevent
                                    the pad from shifting down. I do not think that the side to side
                                    shift will be as much of a problem if the pad is as wide as you are
                                    suggesting. In order to prevent down shifting you would need to add
                                    some sort of attachment point at the head of the hammock. What ever
                                    you do keep in mind light weight. It is the combination of light
                                    weight and comfort that make the HH such a winner.

                                    John Finston


                                    --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., Tom Hennessy <hennessyhammock@g...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > on 11/20/01 5:31 PM, Jay Willis at j.willis@e... wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Hi John,
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > John Finston wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >> So far I am most satisfied with the thermarest
                                    > >
                                    > > On my next outing I think I will try my thermarest instead of my
                                    pad. The
                                    > > trouble with my reflectix/windshield reflector/fleece pad was
                                    that, besides
                                    > > being much too thick when rolled up, the fleece tended to cling
                                    to my bag,
                                    > > making it a hassle to get it back in place when it shifted during
                                    the night.
                                    > >
                                    > >> because if it shifts I can shift it back into place.
                                    > >
                                    > > Exactly.
                                    > >
                                    > >> When the reflectix pad shifted from side to side were you able to
                                    > >> reposition it?
                                    > >
                                    > > No. I had to get up anyway to answer nature's call. And
                                    repositioned it when
                                    > > I got back.
                                    > >
                                    > >> The shorter length is less bulky and also makes it easier to get
                                    into the
                                    > >> hammock. Have you tried a shorter length?
                                    > >
                                    > > No, mine's the full length. But I don't mind. If it doesn't
                                    behave I'll get
                                    > > the 3/4 length one.
                                    > >
                                    > >> Finally, having moved to the SF bay area from Oregon,
                                    > >
                                    > > We may have passed eachother - I did just the opposite.
                                    > >
                                    > >> I certainly miss the great hiking areas, green mountains and
                                    landscapes of
                                    > >> Oregon, especially the Jefferson wilderness.
                                    > >
                                    > > Beauty that is hard to describe.
                                    > >
                                    > >> ...once I experienced the comfort of the HH, its difficult to
                                    imagine
                                    > >> sleeping on the ground again.
                                    > >
                                    > > I, for one, have seen the light and will never go back.
                                    > >
                                    > > As I said, John, I think the key was the fleece jacket and pants
                                    I was
                                    > > wearing. With polys underneath.
                                    > >
                                    > > As much as I enjoy the Hennessy, the Clark looks interesting,
                                    with the
                                    > > ability to unzip the mesh so that you can easily just flop down
                                    and read a
                                    > > book, or just to relax. The Hennessy is probably more stable on
                                    entry/exit
                                    > > since you do it from the bottom. Maybe Tom might consider adding
                                    a zipper on
                                    > > one side for when you just want to take a siesta after a long
                                    day's hike. ;-)
                                    > >
                                    > > Happy hammocking,
                                    > > Jay
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > > BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@y...
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > >
                                    > Hello John and Jay
                                    >
                                    > I am following your adventures with the HH and the radiant reflector
                                    > experiments with much interest. With your help, I hope to produce
                                    the
                                    > lightest, cheapest and most efficient pad system for the HH
                                    possible.
                                    >
                                    > In my recent experiment posted to this site, I used a 40" wide
                                    piece of
                                    > Reflectix which did not shift for me, I think, because of it's
                                    width. I
                                    > have found that conventional, narrow tent pads do not like being
                                    bent out
                                    > of shape and are essentially loaded springs waiting for an
                                    opportunity to
                                    > pop out from under you. They were designed to lay flat on the
                                    ground. The
                                    > wider aluminum foil covered refletix pad actually conforms to the
                                    shape of
                                    > the hammock and holds that shape even when the hammock is not
                                    occupied.
                                    >
                                    > It seems to me that if you are wearing a fleece jacket and pants
                                    that you
                                    > may not need fleece fabric attached to the radiant reflector which
                                    would
                                    > solve the grabbing problem of the fleece attached to the
                                    reflector. Or if
                                    > you are using my reflectic-fleece system, you might want to wear a
                                    less
                                    > grabby fabric which would move more easily against the fleece
                                    attached to
                                    > the relector.
                                    >
                                    > My thinking to date on what this pad system would look like is this:
                                    >
                                    > A piece of reflectix approximately five feet long and about 36 to
                                    40" wide
                                    > from shoulder to below the elbow then tapering to 18-24" at the
                                    foot end. A
                                    > piece of fleece sewn to the perimeter and also two rows of
                                    stitching 6" or
                                    > 8' in from each side parallel to the centerline forming a pocket
                                    into which
                                    > could be inserted an auto windshield reflector pad or any other
                                    additional
                                    > insulation which would be available such as extra clothing,
                                    newspaper, moss,
                                    > leaves etc in an emergency. This makes a variable weight, four
                                    season pad.
                                    >
                                    > You won't need a pad longer than 5 feet if you are using a pillow.
                                    I used
                                    > to use a lump of clothing for a pillow but now I really like my
                                    radiant
                                    > reflecting, fleece covered air pillow made from a wine box bladder
                                    and a
                                    > home made fleece pillow cover. It is completely adjustable
                                    elevation-wise,
                                    > radiant reflective which warms and conforms perfectly to my
                                    shoulder, neck
                                    > and face.
                                    >
                                    > Keep up the feedback and remember "Perfection is a direction"
                                    >
                                    > Cheers, Tom Hennessy
                                  • j.willis@evergreenaviation.com
                                    ... people ... John, one method that I might try that would keep the head of my pad in place is to use snaps fastened to the head end of the pad and to the
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Nov 27, 2001
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                                      --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., "John Finston" <jffllgm@y...> wrote:
                                      > Tom,
                                      >
                                      > Your ideas about an insulating pad are interesting. Like most
                                      people
                                      > trying different combinations of pads, I have also experienced the
                                      > shifting pad problem. I think one solution might be to attach the
                                      > head end of the pad to the end of the hammock. This would prevent
                                      > the pad from shifting down. I do not think that the side to side
                                      > shift will be as much of a problem if the pad is as wide as you are
                                      > suggesting. In order to prevent down shifting you would need to add
                                      > some sort of attachment point at the head of the hammock. What ever
                                      > you do keep in mind light weight. It is the combination of light
                                      > weight and comfort that make the HH such a winner.
                                      >
                                      > John Finston

                                      John, one method that I might try that would keep the head of my pad
                                      in place is to use snaps fastened to the head end of the pad and to
                                      the hammock. I would use maybe 6 snaps - one at each corner two more
                                      at the end b/corners, and two down from the corners. It shouldn't be
                                      too difficult to snap in place yourself, if your arms are long
                                      enough. I don't know, though, how snaps could be attached to, say, a
                                      thermarest. But I may try it on my reflectix/windsheild
                                      reflector/fleece pad. I just hate to put holes in the hammock
                                      material, though.

                                      Jay
                                    • John Finston
                                      Jay, I am also hesitant to do anything at acutally affects the integrety of the hammock bottom material. I am going to look into sewing into the front of the
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Nov 29, 2001
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                                        Jay,

                                        I am also hesitant to do anything at acutally affects the integrety
                                        of the hammock bottom material. I am going to look into sewing into
                                        the front of the hammock (where the guide line attaches) an
                                        attachmnet loop and then attach two lines from it to the corners of
                                        the pad (so that your head is between the attachment lines instead of
                                        on it).

                                        Your idea of using snaps is an interesting one. My concern is that
                                        any hole in the bottom of the hammock would soon turn into a tear due
                                        to the stress on the fabric. Velcro glued/sewed on to the hammock
                                        might be a safer option.

                                        John

                                        --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., j.willis@e... wrote:
                                        > --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., "John Finston" <jffllgm@y...> wrote:
                                        > > Tom,
                                        > >
                                        > > Your ideas about an insulating pad are interesting. Like most
                                        > people
                                        > > trying different combinations of pads, I have also experienced
                                        the
                                        > > shifting pad problem. I think one solution might be to attach
                                        the
                                        > > head end of the pad to the end of the hammock. This would
                                        prevent
                                        > > the pad from shifting down. I do not think that the side to side
                                        > > shift will be as much of a problem if the pad is as wide as you
                                        are
                                        > > suggesting. In order to prevent down shifting you would need to
                                        add
                                        > > some sort of attachment point at the head of the hammock. What
                                        ever
                                        > > you do keep in mind light weight. It is the combination of light
                                        > > weight and comfort that make the HH such a winner.
                                        > >
                                        > > John Finston
                                        >
                                        > John, one method that I might try that would keep the head of my
                                        pad
                                        > in place is to use snaps fastened to the head end of the pad and to
                                        > the hammock. I would use maybe 6 snaps - one at each corner two
                                        more
                                        > at the end b/corners, and two down from the corners. It shouldn't
                                        be
                                        > too difficult to snap in place yourself, if your arms are long
                                        > enough. I don't know, though, how snaps could be attached to, say,
                                        a
                                        > thermarest. But I may try it on my reflectix/windsheild
                                        > reflector/fleece pad. I just hate to put holes in the hammock
                                        > material, though.
                                        >
                                        > Jay
                                      • JONES, PHILIP T
                                        I just had a silly thought. Do you remember those little corners that you would glue onto a photo album page to hold your photos. What if you could attach
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Nov 29, 2001
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                                          I just had a silly thought. Do you remember those little corners that you
                                          would glue onto a photo album page to hold your photos. What if you could
                                          attach something like that inside the hammock to hold the corners of your
                                          pad. Would that work? You could sew some small pieces of material to the
                                          hammock bottom. Does anyone want to try this?



                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: John Finston [mailto:jffllgm@...]
                                          > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 2:55 PM
                                          > To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: [BackpackGearTest] Re: Hennessy trip report
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Jay,
                                          >
                                          > I am also hesitant to do anything at acutally affects the integrety
                                          > of the hammock bottom material. I am going to look into sewing into
                                          > the front of the hammock (where the guide line attaches) an
                                          > attachmnet loop and then attach two lines from it to the corners of
                                          > the pad (so that your head is between the attachment lines instead of
                                          > on it).
                                          >
                                          > Your idea of using snaps is an interesting one. My concern is that
                                          > any hole in the bottom of the hammock would soon turn into a tear due
                                          > to the stress on the fabric. Velcro glued/sewed on to the hammock
                                          > might be a safer option.
                                          >
                                          > John
                                          >
                                          > --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., j.willis@e... wrote:
                                          > > --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., "John Finston" <jffllgm@y...> wrote:
                                          > > > Tom,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Your ideas about an insulating pad are interesting. Like most
                                          > > people
                                          > > > trying different combinations of pads, I have also experienced
                                          > the
                                          > > > shifting pad problem. I think one solution might be to attach
                                          > the
                                          > > > head end of the pad to the end of the hammock. This would
                                          > prevent
                                          > > > the pad from shifting down. I do not think that the side to side
                                          > > > shift will be as much of a problem if the pad is as wide as you
                                          > are
                                          > > > suggesting. In order to prevent down shifting you would need to
                                          > add
                                          > > > some sort of attachment point at the head of the hammock. What
                                          > ever
                                          > > > you do keep in mind light weight. It is the combination of light
                                          > > > weight and comfort that make the HH such a winner.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > John Finston
                                          > >
                                          > > John, one method that I might try that would keep the head of my
                                          > pad
                                          > > in place is to use snaps fastened to the head end of the pad and to
                                          > > the hammock. I would use maybe 6 snaps - one at each corner two
                                          > more
                                          > > at the end b/corners, and two down from the corners. It shouldn't
                                          > be
                                          > > too difficult to snap in place yourself, if your arms are long
                                          > > enough. I don't know, though, how snaps could be attached to, say,
                                          > a
                                          > > thermarest. But I may try it on my reflectix/windsheild
                                          > > reflector/fleece pad. I just hate to put holes in the hammock
                                          > > material, though.
                                          > >
                                          > > Jay
                                          >
                                        • John Finston
                                          I think that the pad would pull out of the restraints. The reason they work for photos is that the photo is stiff and not very flexible. A sleeping pad does
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Nov 29, 2001
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I think that the pad would pull out of the restraints. The reason
                                            they work for photos is that the photo is stiff and not very
                                            flexible. A sleeping pad does not have the same qualities.
                                            JFF
                                            --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., "JONES, PHILIP T" <phil-t-jones@h...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > I just had a silly thought. Do you remember those little corners
                                            that you
                                            > would glue onto a photo album page to hold your photos. What if
                                            you could
                                            > attach something like that inside the hammock to hold the corners
                                            of your
                                            > pad. Would that work? You could sew some small pieces of material
                                            to the
                                            > hammock bottom. Does anyone want to try this?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > -----Original Message-----
                                            > > From: John Finston [mailto:jffllgm@y...]
                                            > > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 2:55 PM
                                            > > To: BackpackGearTest@y...
                                            > > Subject: [BackpackGearTest] Re: Hennessy trip report
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Jay,
                                            > >
                                            > > I am also hesitant to do anything at acutally affects the
                                            integrety
                                            > > of the hammock bottom material. I am going to look into sewing
                                            into
                                            > > the front of the hammock (where the guide line attaches) an
                                            > > attachmnet loop and then attach two lines from it to the corners
                                            of
                                            > > the pad (so that your head is between the attachment lines
                                            instead of
                                            > > on it).
                                            > >
                                            > > Your idea of using snaps is an interesting one. My concern is
                                            that
                                            > > any hole in the bottom of the hammock would soon turn into a tear
                                            due
                                            > > to the stress on the fabric. Velcro glued/sewed on to the
                                            hammock
                                            > > might be a safer option.
                                            > >
                                            > > John
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., j.willis@e... wrote:
                                            > > > --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., "John Finston" <jffllgm@y...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > > > > Tom,
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Your ideas about an insulating pad are interesting. Like
                                            most
                                            > > > people
                                            > > > > trying different combinations of pads, I have also
                                            experienced
                                            > > the
                                            > > > > shifting pad problem. I think one solution might be to
                                            attach
                                            > > the
                                            > > > > head end of the pad to the end of the hammock. This would
                                            > > prevent
                                            > > > > the pad from shifting down. I do not think that the side to
                                            side
                                            > > > > shift will be as much of a problem if the pad is as wide as
                                            you
                                            > > are
                                            > > > > suggesting. In order to prevent down shifting you would need
                                            to
                                            > > add
                                            > > > > some sort of attachment point at the head of the hammock.
                                            What
                                            > > ever
                                            > > > > you do keep in mind light weight. It is the combination of
                                            light
                                            > > > > weight and comfort that make the HH such a winner.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > John Finston
                                            > > >
                                            > > > John, one method that I might try that would keep the head of
                                            my
                                            > > pad
                                            > > > in place is to use snaps fastened to the head end of the pad
                                            and to
                                            > > > the hammock. I would use maybe 6 snaps - one at each corner two
                                            > > more
                                            > > > at the end b/corners, and two down from the corners. It
                                            shouldn't
                                            > > be
                                            > > > too difficult to snap in place yourself, if your arms are long
                                            > > > enough. I don't know, though, how snaps could be attached to,
                                            say,
                                            > > a
                                            > > > thermarest. But I may try it on my reflectix/windsheild
                                            > > > reflector/fleece pad. I just hate to put holes in the hammock
                                            > > > material, though.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Jay
                                            > >
                                          • John Finston
                                            At 6 3 I do not sleep on much of a diagonal and I think that if the line were attached to the corners of the pad it would work. But all of these suggestions
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Nov 29, 2001
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                                              At 6'3" I do not sleep on much of a diagonal and I think that if the
                                              line were attached to the corners of the pad it would work. But all
                                              of these suggestions may have bugs that need to be worked out.

                                              --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., "Clifford R. Haynes" <chaynes@m...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: "John Finston" <jffllgm@y...>
                                              > To: <BackpackGearTest@y...>
                                              > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 3:55 PM
                                              > Subject: [BackpackGearTest] Re: Hennessy trip report
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > Jay,
                                              > >
                                              > > I am also hesitant to do anything at acutally affects the
                                              integrety
                                              > > of the hammock bottom material. I am going to look into sewing
                                              into
                                              > > the front of the hammock (where the guide line attaches) an
                                              > > attachmnet loop and then attach two lines from it to the corners
                                              of
                                              > > the pad (so that your head is between the attachment lines
                                              instead of
                                              > > on it).
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Wouldn't either on these ideas force you to lay parallel to the
                                              hammocks
                                              > centerline instead of diagonally in the hammock?
                                            • Tom Hennessy
                                              ... Hey jay & Coy Boy I m all for experiments that could come up with the answer . One idea for puttin holes in the hammock bottom would be to use an awl to
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Nov 30, 2001
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                on 11/30/01 5:19 PM, Clifford R. Haynes at chaynes@... wrote:

                                                >
                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > From: "John Finston" <jffllgm@...>
                                                > To: <BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com>
                                                > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 3:55 PM
                                                > Subject: [BackpackGearTest] Re: Hennessy trip report
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >> Jay,
                                                >>
                                                >> I am also hesitant to do anything at acutally affects the integrety
                                                >> of the hammock bottom material. I am going to look into sewing into
                                                >> the front of the hammock (where the guide line attaches) an
                                                >> attachmnet loop and then attach two lines from it to the corners of
                                                >> the pad (so that your head is between the attachment lines instead of
                                                >> on it).
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Wouldn't either on these ideas force you to lay parallel to the hammocks
                                                > centerline instead of diagonally in the hammock?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                >
                                                Hey jay & Coy Boy
                                                I'm all for experiments that could come up with "the answer". One idea for
                                                puttin holes in the hammock bottom would be to use an awl to carefully
                                                spread the fibers to avoid cutting or breaking until the resulting hole is
                                                just big enough to insert the post on the snap. I assume that you are
                                                talking about the snap that you hit with a hammer to fasten. A few small
                                                fabric washers positioned during assembly will add extra strength.

                                                Cheers, Tom
                                              • Tom Hennessy
                                                ... George Thanks so much for the more detailed info on your experiments, I m sure this will be helpful to all the thinkers out there, including me. I have
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Nov 30, 2001
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                                                  on 11/26/01 4:26 AM, gcoledrph at gcoledrph@... wrote:

                                                  > Hi again, Tom:
                                                  >
                                                  >>> What % more efficient is the Beavalite than the Reflectix? I would like
                                                  > to know more about your experiments. Do you have any results on paper <<
                                                  >
                                                  > I would hesitate to place too much faith in the accuracy of the numbers that
                                                  > resulted from my tests. I don't think my methods were all that pristine or
                                                  > defendable.
                                                  >
                                                  > What I did was construct a small plastic box that I carefully sealed and
                                                  > insulated. This box had provisions for suspending a light bulb inside. Then
                                                  > I experimented with different wattages of bulb until I found one that kept
                                                  > the interior of the box at a consistent 95 degrees when the box was
                                                  > suspended eighteen inches off the floor in the middle of a closed, unheated
                                                  > room that stayed at about 60 degrees. I used an off-the-shelf digital
                                                  > thermometer with two zone sensors and a remote readout. Then I cut a 12" by
                                                  > 12" section out of the bottom of the box.
                                                  >
                                                  > My tests consisted of first matching by weight different 12" by 12" panels
                                                  > of insulating material. For example, when I tested 5/16" Reflectix I
                                                  > layered pieces of 1/8" closed cell foam until I got the weight of the panels
                                                  > roughly equal. Then, successively, I sealed each panel over the hole in
                                                  > the box and measured the interior temperature of the box at different
                                                  > outside temperatures (~25 degrees to ~55 degrees).
                                                  >
                                                  > Again, I am not confident that this method can be trusted to yield accurate
                                                  > numbers or that these numbers can quantifiably predict the heat loss of
                                                  > larger samples of material. However, I did find that a 12" by 12" closed
                                                  > cell foam panel kept the air inside the box significantly warmer than a 12"
                                                  > by 12" Reflectix panel. Subjectively, I duplicated these results by (not)
                                                  > sleeping in the HH with weight-matched closed cell foam pads and Reflectix
                                                  > pads. The closed cell pads were consistently, noticeably warmer, when
                                                  > clothing, bag, temperature and humidity were kept constant.
                                                  >
                                                  >>> other quality like form fitting would offset the difference in
                                                  > efficiency.<<
                                                  >
                                                  > I settled on Bevalite (now sold as FY 20 by OWF) because it offered the best
                                                  > combination of flexibility and light weight. I needed a pad that was stiff
                                                  > enough to insert into the sleeping bag's pad pocket but flexible enough to
                                                  > mold to my body when in the HH. Bevalite was the best, and can be purchased
                                                  > from OWF long enough to completely fill the 76" length of my RAB and FF pad
                                                  > pockets. The Bevalite is also pretty durable and retains it's volume well.
                                                  >
                                                  >>> Sounds like you are happy with a regular sleeping bag width foam pad. Have
                                                  > you had any problems with cold shoulders against the hammock? Would
                                                  > you use a wider pad if it fit your sleeping bag?<<
                                                  >
                                                  > The pad pocket on my RAB is about 22 inches wide. It's about 20 inches wide
                                                  > on the FF. My shoulders are about 18.5 inches wide when not rounded and
                                                  > compressed by the HH. Mostly, I sleep on my back with my arms crossed over
                                                  > my chest, and I have not had problems with cold shoulders in either bag,
                                                  > even at +10F. In addition, I use whatever ground pad I'm carrying as the
                                                  > "tubular suspension" of my pack, and 20" wide works best for that, with 22"
                                                  > being about maximum. A 20" wide pad allows me to get two pads out one 40"
                                                  > by 80" sheet of Bevalite, and, as I said before, the stuff ain't cheap.
                                                  > Reflectix does have a huge advantage if cost is the major issue.
                                                  >
                                                  >>> I have heard of Everest climbers using a pad sandwich similar to yours.
                                                  > I wonder how the foam in the windshield reflector compares in efficiency to
                                                  > Bevalite foam. If it is close, then maybe one, two or three windshield pads
                                                  > would be more flexible, wider and incorporate more radiant materials. What
                                                  > do you
                                                  > think?<<
                                                  >
                                                  > Couldn't say, but I do know different types of closed cell foam differ in
                                                  > thermal (conductive) efficiency due to construction (cell size, type of
                                                  > material, type of gas) as well as thickness. You might gain something from
                                                  > multiple radiant barriers, but radiant body heat loss is not near as
                                                  > critical as conductive heat loss. That's probably why closed cell foam is
                                                  > more efficient than Reflectix, anyway. Reflectix is kind of like a closed
                                                  > cell foam that's constructed using a single thickness of very large cells.
                                                  > Although this is probably an oversimplification, as I understand it a large
                                                  > cell transfers more heat than multiple small cells because of internal
                                                  > convection.
                                                  >
                                                  > I've been impressed by how warm the 1" Bevalite-space blanket sandwich is.
                                                  > I think most of it's efficiency is due to the foam. However, it probably
                                                  > helps that the metallized space blanket material (which is not only a good
                                                  > heat reflector but is also a good (bad) heat conductor) is held far enough
                                                  > away from the body by the top pad's dead air space to work well as a
                                                  > reflector, and at the same time is protected by the bottom pad from being
                                                  > directly exposed to the cold. A sandwich would probably work pretty well
                                                  > using other thicknesses of foam.. Maybe two 1/8" pads with a space blanket
                                                  > sewn between them?
                                                  >
                                                  > I've also found that it helps to minimize the amount of air that circulates
                                                  > under the HH when it's cold. I use a custom 8' by 10' fly that acts like
                                                  > the side walls of a tent when the sides are tethered as vertically as
                                                  > possible. I also hang the HH low, and use my poncho or a snow wall to block
                                                  > breezes on the up-wind side. I'm experimenting with some other simple
                                                  > adaptations to try to cut down on air circulation beneath the hammock.
                                                  >
                                                  > Good luck with your R and D. The HH is a great product.
                                                  >
                                                  > George
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ----------------------------------------------------
                                                  > Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today
                                                  > Only $9.95 per month!
                                                  > http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                  > BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                  >
                                                  George

                                                  Thanks so much for the more detailed info on your experiments, I'm sure
                                                  this will be helpful to all the "thinkers" out there, including me. I have
                                                  an inside/outside thermometer and plan to do some testing soon. Thanks
                                                  again for your help.

                                                  Cheers, Tom
                                                • Jay Willis
                                                  You re right, John, using the ridgeline rather than the fabric. Just like a small crack in a windshield, that small hole made in the fabric for the snap could
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Nov 30, 2001
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    You're right, John, using the ridgeline rather than the fabric. Just like a
                                                    small crack in a windshield, that small hole made in the fabric for the snap
                                                    could grow from stress. Bad idea. I'll give your idea more consideration.
                                                    Jay

                                                    John Finston wrote:

                                                    > Jay,
                                                    >
                                                    > I am also hesitant to do anything at acutally affects the integrety
                                                    > of the hammock bottom material. I am going to look into sewing into
                                                    > the front of the hammock (where the guide line attaches) an
                                                    > attachmnet loop and then attach two lines from it to the corners of
                                                    > the pad (so that your head is between the attachment lines instead of
                                                    > on it).
                                                    >
                                                    > Your idea of using snaps is an interesting one. My concern is that
                                                    > any hole in the bottom of the hammock would soon turn into a tear due
                                                    > to the stress on the fabric. Velcro glued/sewed on to the hammock
                                                    > might be a safer option.
                                                    >
                                                    > John
                                                    >
                                                  • Clifford R. Haynes
                                                    ... From: John Finston To: Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 3:55 PM Subject: [BackpackGearTest] Re:
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Nov 30, 2001
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: "John Finston" <jffllgm@...>
                                                      To: <BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 3:55 PM
                                                      Subject: [BackpackGearTest] Re: Hennessy trip report


                                                      > Jay,
                                                      >
                                                      > I am also hesitant to do anything at acutally affects the integrety
                                                      > of the hammock bottom material. I am going to look into sewing into
                                                      > the front of the hammock (where the guide line attaches) an
                                                      > attachmnet loop and then attach two lines from it to the corners of
                                                      > the pad (so that your head is between the attachment lines instead of
                                                      > on it).


                                                      Wouldn't either on these ideas force you to lay parallel to the hammocks
                                                      centerline instead of diagonally in the hammock?
                                                    • gratienne vandekerkhove
                                                      I ve used two-sided adhesive tape to glue my number-plate to my car. Can t that be used to keep a pad in place? Gratienne
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Dec 1, 2001
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        I've used two-sided adhesive tape to glue my number-plate to my car. Can't
                                                        that be used to keep a pad in place?

                                                        Gratienne

                                                        > I think that the pad would pull out of the restraints. The reason
                                                        > they work for photos is that the photo is stiff and not very
                                                        > flexible. A sleeping pad does not have the same qualities.
                                                      • Tom Hennessy
                                                        on 12/1/01 2:41 PM, j.willis@evergreenaviation.com at ... Hey Jay The grommet idea sounds interesting and definately worth a try, except for one thing. A rope
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Dec 1, 2001
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          on 12/1/01 2:41 PM, j.willis@... at
                                                          j.willis@... wrote:

                                                          >
                                                          >> Hey jay & Coy Boy
                                                          >> I'm all for experiments that could come up with "the answer". One idea for
                                                          >> puttin holes in the hammock bottom would be to use an awl to carefully
                                                          >> spread the fibers to avoid cutting or breaking until the resulting hole is
                                                          >> just big enough to insert the post on the snap. I assume that you are
                                                          >> talking about the snap that you hit with a hammer to fasten. A few small
                                                          >> fabric washers positioned during assembly will add extra strength.
                                                          >>
                                                          >> Cheers, Tom
                                                          >
                                                          > How does this sound?: Instead of snaps, put grommets in the corners at
                                                          > the head of the pad and corresponding grommets in the hammock, but
                                                          > spreading the threads in the fabric with an awl, as you suggest, Tom.
                                                          > Then, tie one end of a nylon rope to the grommet in one corner of the
                                                          > pad, run it through the corresponding hole/grommet in the hammock, tie
                                                          > it to the ridgeline on the outside, run it through the other hammock
                                                          > grommet, and tie off to the other pad grommet. This way the hammock
                                                          > fabric doesn't take any stress. I would reinforce the grommets with
                                                          > round leather patches on each side of the grommet.
                                                          > Jay
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                          > BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                          >
                                                          Hey Jay

                                                          The grommet idea sounds interesting and definately worth a try, except for
                                                          one thing. A rope or cord over the netting could cause chafing and put
                                                          holes in the net. One suggestion would be to attach rope to the hammocks'
                                                          main support rope, but maybe this is what you meant.

                                                          Cheers, Tom
                                                        • j.willis@evergreenaviation.com
                                                          ... How does this sound?: Instead of snaps, put grommets in the corners at the head of the pad and corresponding grommets in the hammock, but spreading the
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Dec 1, 2001
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            > Hey jay & Coy Boy
                                                            > I'm all for experiments that could come up with "the answer". One idea for
                                                            > puttin holes in the hammock bottom would be to use an awl to carefully
                                                            > spread the fibers to avoid cutting or breaking until the resulting hole is
                                                            > just big enough to insert the post on the snap. I assume that you are
                                                            > talking about the snap that you hit with a hammer to fasten. A few small
                                                            > fabric washers positioned during assembly will add extra strength.
                                                            >
                                                            > Cheers, Tom

                                                            How does this sound?: Instead of snaps, put grommets in the corners at
                                                            the head of the pad and corresponding grommets in the hammock, but
                                                            spreading the threads in the fabric with an awl, as you suggest, Tom.
                                                            Then, tie one end of a nylon rope to the grommet in one corner of the
                                                            pad, run it through the corresponding hole/grommet in the hammock, tie
                                                            it to the ridgeline on the outside, run it through the other hammock
                                                            grommet, and tie off to the other pad grommet. This way the hammock
                                                            fabric doesn't take any stress. I would reinforce the grommets with
                                                            round leather patches on each side of the grommet.
                                                            Jay
                                                          • Tom Hennessy
                                                            ... Jay Letting the main support ropes take the load sounds best to me. That way, if anything fails, it will be the attachment to the pad that fails, which is
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Dec 2, 2001
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              on 12/2/01 2:06 AM, Jay Willis at j.willis@... wrote:

                                                              >>
                                                              >> Hey Jay
                                                              >>
                                                              >> The grommet idea sounds interesting and definately worth a try, except for
                                                              >> one thing. A rope or cord over the netting could cause chafing and put
                                                              >> holes in the net. One suggestion would be to attach rope to the hammocks'
                                                              >> main support rope, but maybe this is what you meant.
                                                              >>
                                                              >> Cheers, Tom
                                                              >
                                                              > Not sure what you mean by netting, Tom. Another way would be to take the
                                                              > center of
                                                              > the rope (~1/8") and tie it to the hammock's support rope. Then run the rope's
                                                              > two
                                                              > ends under the hammock and through the grommets I've installed in the hammock
                                                              > fabric, and tie the ends of the rope to the grommets I've installed into the
                                                              > two
                                                              > corners of the pad at the head end.
                                                              > Jay
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                              > BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                              >
                                                              Jay

                                                              Letting the main support ropes take the load sounds best to me. That way,
                                                              if anything fails, it will be the attachment to the pad that fails, which is
                                                              not critical. Good luck .

                                                              Cheers, Tom
                                                            • Jay Willis
                                                              ... Not sure what you mean by netting, Tom. Another way would be to take the center of the rope (~1/8 ) and tie it to the hammock s support rope. Then run the
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Dec 2, 2001
                                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                                >
                                                                > Hey Jay
                                                                >
                                                                > The grommet idea sounds interesting and definately worth a try, except for
                                                                > one thing. A rope or cord over the netting could cause chafing and put
                                                                > holes in the net. One suggestion would be to attach rope to the hammocks'
                                                                > main support rope, but maybe this is what you meant.
                                                                >
                                                                > Cheers, Tom

                                                                Not sure what you mean by netting, Tom. Another way would be to take the center of
                                                                the rope (~1/8") and tie it to the hammock's support rope. Then run the rope's two
                                                                ends under the hammock and through the grommets I've installed in the hammock
                                                                fabric, and tie the ends of the rope to the grommets I've installed into the two
                                                                corners of the pad at the head end.
                                                                Jay
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