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Attn Macabi Men (and girls too)

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  • Andy Mytys
    Looks like the Field Reporting is pretty much done. I see all kinds of comments about the garments design, strength, reflections on modesty, etc. I still
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 23 10:18 PM
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      Looks like the Field Reporting is pretty much done. I see all kinds
      of comments about the garments design, strength, reflections on
      modesty, etc.

      I still haven't read anything much about things like sweat factor
      underneath, and if there are any differences in "chafing"
      encountered when compared to more traditional pants.

      Anyone going commando in this thing? Again, chafing becomes an area
      I'd like to hear about, in addition to other observations.

      I've also got a question for the girls, as skirts certainly aren't
      new to women, nor are any accompanying advantages/disadvantages.

      If skirts were superior to pants, I would expect to see many, if not
      most, women on the trail wearing them. Yet all I see are PANTS.
      Why is this?

      Do the men in the test series have any ideas on this topic, after
      their long-term experiences?

      What's the real skinny on skirts? Is this just a novelty... a
      conversation piece? Or, is the general backpacking community
      missing out on something.

      For $77, I'm not willing to invest in the experiment. These reports
      certainly have been entertaining, but they still haven't sold me on
      the advantages of the skirt, and I have lingering doubts/questions.

      Please keep my comments in mind for your LTR testing. It would be a
      shame to exit the test process without hitting on such details.

      BTW, for you men testers that are new to skirts, was there any
      adjustment period to taking a crap with the skirt? How does
      the "technique" differ from that of pants? I'm thinking
      specifically in situations when you're in skirt mode - I think it
      would be rather silly to buy a skirt, then just talk about it
      in "shorts" mode. It's nice to have a shorts option, but shorts are
      nothing new to me. While any differences should be noted (eg. do
      the shorts keep their form or do they require constant re-
      adjustment) what I'm really interested in hearing about is the
      skirt's functionality.

      I thank you in advance for considering my questions as an engaged
      reader.
    • Andy Mytys
      Another issue I d like to hear about is dirt control. Are you guys sparing the skirt and spoiling your legs when it comes to wet, muddy areas? I typically
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 24 9:52 AM
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        Another issue I'd like to hear about is dirt control. Are you guys
        sparing the skirt and spoiling your legs when it comes to wet, muddy
        areas?

        I typically hike in convertable pants. At the end of any given day,
        I look down on my pantlegs and see all kinds of dirt - the closer I
        am to the shoes the more of it there is.

        The beauty of the convertables is that I can remove the pantlegs,
        wash them, and wait for them to dry while still wearing the clean
        shorts portion. You really can't do this with the Macabi.

        What happens if the skirt is slightly dirty/muddy, and the trail
        really gets bad, to the point of wanting to convert the skirt into a
        shorts or diaper mode. Does that dirt transfer to upper portions of
        the skirt during transformation?

        Once again, I'm just listing some questions about the skirt that I
        have as a reader, that haven't really been addressed in the reports
        thus far. Hopefully, some of the issues I've brought up will be
        picked up as test cases by some of the testers.

        I'm looking forward to reading all your LTRs.
      • Shane Steinkamp
        I d have SWORN that I posted my Macabi report. Chuck even replied to it, but I can t find it in the archive. I will repost it shortly in light of Andy s
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 24 8:01 PM
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          I'd have SWORN that I posted my Macabi report. Chuck even replied to it,
          but I can't find it in the archive. I will repost it shortly in light of
          Andy's comments. I am VERY sorry that it seems to have been eaten by
          Yahoo!.

          > I still haven't read anything much about things like sweat
          > factor underneath, and if there are any differences in
          > "chafing" encountered when compared to more traditional pants.

          I think that I covered that quite well in my report.

          > Anyone going commando in this thing?

          Is there any other way?

          > Again, chafing becomes an area I'd like to hear about, in
          > addition to other observations.

          Chafing is often an individual issue. I do not experience much trouble in
          that regard EXCEPT in pants. I've added some brief commentary.

          > If skirts were superior to pants, I would expect to see many,
          > if not most, women on the trail wearing them. Yet all I see
          > are PANTS. Why is this?

          Because the sport is male dominated. It seems that very few companies
          except Macabi specifically make outdoor skirts. You wouldn't hike in
          chiffon no matter if it was shorts, pants, or a skirt. There is definitely
          a lack of available selection.

          > Do the men in the test series have any ideas on this topic,
          > after their long-term experiences?

          See above. I have found that men who can be influenced into wearing skirts,
          sarongs, and other garments friendly to male genetalia will continue to wear
          them UNLESS undue social pressure is brought to bear on them by their peers.
          I , of course, have never been one to give a rats ice about the opinions of
          my peers on my fashion choices.

          > What's the real skinny on skirts? Is this just a novelty... a
          > conversation piece? Or, is the general backpacking community
          > missing out on something.

          It's a revolution waiting to happen. No matter how good the wicking
          underwear become, long distance hikers will experience the ravages of
          chafing after a few days because of the buildup of sweat, salt, grit, and
          bacteria. The skirt is an ideal solution.

          Of course, in colder temperatures, they are not practicable after a point.

          > For $77, I'm not willing to invest in the experiment. These
          > reports certainly have been entertaining, but they still
          > haven't sold me on the advantages of the skirt, and I have
          > lingering doubts/questions.

          I will be happy to send you a sarong and educate you in its use. The Macabi
          is, in that sense, nothing more than the simplest skirt. The Macabi DOES
          have extremely desirable features, as detailed, and I do recommend them.
          But, a sarong will serve to educate you readily in the benefits of the
          garment type without costing you a cent.

          > Please keep my comments in mind for your LTR testing. It would
          > be a shame to exit the test process without hitting on such
          > details.

          <SALUTE!>

          > BTW, for you men testers that are new to skirts, was there any
          > adjustment period to taking a crap with the skirt? How does
          > the "technique" differ from that of pants?

          There is no technique in a skirt. You simply hitch it up a little and
          squat. What's to understand?

          Shane
        • Shane Steinkamp
          ... I have never worried about dirt. I frequently shower every day on the trail - or whenever I have water. Otherwise I wipe down. I m in the woods... Why
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 24 8:07 PM
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            > Another issue I'd like to hear about is dirt control. Are you
            > guys sparing the skirt and spoiling your legs when it comes to
            > wet, muddy areas?

            I have never worried about dirt. I frequently shower every day on the
            trail - or whenever I have water. Otherwise I wipe down. I'm in the
            woods... Why should I care about a little dirt?

            > I typically hike in convertible pants. At the end of any given
            > day, I look down on my pant legs and see all kinds of dirt - the
            > closer I am to the shoes the more of it there is.

            And this is a problem?

            > The beauty of the convertables is that I can remove the
            > pantlegs, wash them, and wait for them to dry while still
            > wearing the clean shorts portion. You really can't do this
            > with the Macabi.

            Ooooo! I never thought of that.

            The Macabi dries so fast that you could rinse it and wear it dry with no
            problems.

            > What happens if the skirt is slightly dirty/muddy, and the
            > trail really gets bad, to the point of wanting to convert the
            > skirt into a shorts or diaper mode. Does that dirt transfer to
            > upper portions of the skirt during transformation?

            For the most part, dirt doesn't stick to the supplex. Wet mud will, but
            once it dries you can just shake it out. Dirt will transfer, but it isn't
            that bad.

            Shane
          • Shane Steinkamp
            ... Sorry to reply to myself. I should have mentioned that I have created a Hiking Skirts group for just such discussions.
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 24 8:41 PM
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              >> What's the real skinny on skirts? Is this just a novelty... a
              >> conversation piece? Or, is the general backpacking community
              >> missing out on something.

              > It's a revolution waiting to happen.

              Sorry to reply to myself. I should have mentioned that I have created a
              Hiking Skirts group for just such discussions.

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HikingSkirts/

              Shane
            • Andy Mytys
              ... I recall the intial post, but I must have read over the chafing part and missed it totally/... I did catch the top quote, and was amused, but it didn t
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 24 11:02 PM
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                --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "Shane Steinkamp"
                <shane@t...> wrote:
                > I'd have SWORN that I posted my Macabi report. Chuck even replied
                > to it, but I can't find it in the archive. I will repost it
                > shortly in light of Andy's comments. I am VERY sorry that it
                > seems to have been eaten by Yahoo!.
                >

                I recall the intial post, but I must have read over the chafing part
                and missed it totally/... I did catch the top quote, and was amused,
                but it didn't directly talk about chafing.

                Reading the report again, I see the paragraph:

                "Some people might fear thigh rub causing thigh chafing. From long
                experience I can say that thigh chafing is only an issue after the
                second day on the trail, and that my thighs get used to it by the
                fourth or fifth day. As the saying goes, Your Mileage May Vary
                (YMMV). For persons who experience trouble in this area, some kind
                of lubricant like Body Glide may be used, but I have never found a
                need for it."

                I was more concerned about chafing in other areas, and the
                paragraph, "Wearing the skirt allows the ventilation necessary to
                allow this sweat to evaporate normally. Wearing loose hiking shorts
                with no drawers will generally have the same benefit, but it isn't
                as good as a skirt-like garment," seems to cover my concern, though
                it didn't directly talk about chafing.

                The only chafing I see being discussed is thigh chafing in Shane's
                report. Indirectly, I guess Shane hits chafing between the two
                checks.

                I'd still like to hear the experiences of other testers on the
                topics I've touched on. One perspective is great. Three is
                better. Six is even better!
              • Andy Mytys
                ... It becomes a problem in MI, especially when there s a lot of mud or when it s raining on the trail, and temps are low. Humidity levels make dry-time a
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 24 11:06 PM
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                  --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "Shane Steinkamp"
                  <shane@t...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > I typically hike in convertible pants. At the end of any given
                  > > day, I look down on my pant legs and see all kinds of dirt - the
                  > > closer I am to the shoes the more of it there is.
                  >
                  > And this is a problem?
                  >

                  It becomes a problem in MI, especially when there's a lot of mud or
                  when it's raining on the trail, and temps are low. Humidity levels
                  make dry-time a nightmare in my state, and that wet mud/dirt can
                  really skunk things up, not to mention spread and get everything
                  dirty. With convertable pants, I can isolate the dirt a little.
                  With the skirt, I couldn't. I never really considered just spending
                  more time in the rain, and washing the skirt, before getting into my
                  shelter.
                • Andy Mytys
                  ... What are your sarongs made of? At any rate, in less than a month it will be Renaissance Festival time here in MI, and I ll be picking up that Chameleon
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 24 11:09 PM
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                    --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "Shane Steinkamp"
                    <shane@t...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > For $77, I'm not willing to invest in the experiment. These
                    > > reports certainly have been entertaining, but they still
                    > > haven't sold me on the advantages of the skirt, and I have
                    > > lingering doubts/questions.
                    >
                    > I will be happy to send you a sarong and educate you in its use.

                    What are your sarongs made of? At any rate, in less than a month it
                    will be Renaissance Festival time here in MI, and I'll be picking up
                    that Chameleon garment (cotton... grrr) that can convert from a bag
                    liner to a pack to a shirt to a sarong... etc. I'll be picking up a
                    pattern too, because I'll probably get ahold of some synth material
                    and sew my own.

                    I wonder if Dennis will still hike with me if I wear a "skirt?"
                  • Shane Steinkamp
                    ... I see where you are going. To use the Language of a Masseuse, you whish to know about chafing in the gluetial cleft. To use something from my Men In
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 25 6:55 PM
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                      > I was more concerned about chafing in other areas, and the
                      > paragraph, "Wearing the skirt allows the ventilation necessary
                      > to allow this sweat to evaporate normally. Wearing loose hiking
                      > shorts with no drawers will generally have the same benefit,
                      > but it isn't as good as a skirt-like garment," seems to cover
                      > my concern, though it didn't directly talk about chafing.
                      >
                      > The only chafing I see being discussed is thigh chafing in
                      > Shane's report. Indirectly, I guess Shane hits chafing between
                      > the two checks.

                      I see where you are going. To use the Language of a Masseuse, you whish to
                      know about chafing in the gluetial cleft. To use something from my Men In
                      Skirts webpage (which you may have missed, and his here:

                      http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/hiking/sections/gear/clothing/meninskirts.
                      htm )

                      As one clever person defined it, "monkey butt = ape a$$, it is a condition
                      when sweat has maxed out on the dark side of your back side. The moisture no
                      longer is wicked from the skin but remains in the valley of thunder and
                      wind. The friction/heat created between the hills that make the valley of
                      thunder and wind dries the surface on the valley floor to the extent that
                      the floor is worked painfully dry. Some common factors that may cause this
                      anomaly range from excessive thunder and wind in the valley floor to a
                      misguided wipe by the sacred valley cloth. But the over riding factor in the
                      cause of ape a$$ and monkey butt is moisture."

                      To be honest, I have NEVER suffered such a condition. The worst chafing I
                      have ever experienced was in the mid-range of the crease between my torso
                      and middle thigh. This was entirely due to state of the art underwear, and
                      since I have discontinued the wearing of same, I have not experienced the
                      condition again.

                      I have experienced other similarly nasty things on the trail, which I do not
                      know the proper and inoffensive names for. A particularly malignant rash
                      once attempted to consume the entirety of my pubic region with gusto.
                      Failing all treatments, the only cure that was effective was fresh air and
                      sunlight.

                      These ills all befell me a long time ago, and from experiences with people
                      who live in much hotter climes and do not suffer the ravages of skin
                      aliments of that nature, I have taken to their mode of natural dress
                      whenever possible. The Macabi provides nearly all the benefits of same.

                      Shane
                    • Shane Steinkamp
                      ... My favorites - even for trail use - are Egyptian cotton. More common ones are made from rayon, which has suitable qualities for use outdoors. I have a
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 25 6:58 PM
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                        > > I will be happy to send you a sarong and educate you in its
                        > > use.

                        > What are your sarongs made of?

                        My favorites - even for trail use - are Egyptian cotton. More common ones
                        are made from rayon, which has suitable qualities for use outdoors. I have
                        a particular rayon model, visible here:

                        http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/hiking/journals/shane/index.htm

                        that I was thinking to send you. It is a little small for me right now, as
                        is evidenced by the amount of leg visible in the image above, but would be
                        perfect for a man your size.

                        > At any rate, in less than a month it will be Renaissance
                        > Festival time here in MI, and I'll be picking up that Chameleon
                        > garment (cotton... grrr) that can convert from a bag liner to a
                        > pack to a shirt to a sarong... etc. I'll be picking up a
                        > pattern too, because I'll probably get ahold of some synth
                        > material and sew my own.

                        I want one of those too, but I fear that it may be a little much for my
                        climate.

                        > I wonder if Dennis will still hike with me if I wear a "skirt?"

                        He may fight you for it in the end...

                        Shane
                      • Shane Steinkamp
                        ... I see the difficulty. One of climate. You re telling me that MI is like Louisiana in the winter time. I just never bothered much about the cold, I
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jul 25 7:02 PM
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                          > It becomes a problem in MI, especially when there's a lot of
                          > mud or when it's raining on the trail, and temps are low.
                          > Humidity levels make dry-time a nightmare in my state, and that
                          > wet mud/dirt can really skunk things up, not to mention spread
                          > and get everything dirty. With convertible pants, I can
                          > isolate the dirt a little. With the skirt, I couldn't. I
                          > never really considered just spending more time in the rain,
                          > and washing the skirt, before getting into my shelter.

                          I see the difficulty. One of climate. You're telling me that MI is like
                          Louisiana in the winter time. I just never bothered much about the cold, I
                          guess. We have different styles. I would rinse the skirt, sit naked by the
                          fire, and dry the skirt by that same fire. I will probably reflect this in
                          the LTR if the weather becomes cool enough.

                          Shane
                        • Andy Mytys
                          ... Yeah, we have different styles. I typically hike pre-dawn to post- dusk and rarely light a fire.
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jul 25 9:57 PM
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                            --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "Shane Steinkamp"
                            <shane@t...> wrote:
                            > I see the difficulty. One of climate. You're telling me that MI
                            > is like Louisiana in the winter time. I just never bothered much
                            > about the cold, I guess. We have different styles. I would rinse
                            > the skirt, sit naked by the fire, and dry the skirt by that same
                            > fire. I will probably reflect this in the LTR if the weather
                            > becomes cool enough.
                            >

                            Yeah, we have different styles. I typically hike pre-dawn to post-
                            dusk and rarely light a fire.
                          • Andy Mytys
                            ... http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/hiking/sections/gear/clothing/menin skirts.htm ) ... Nice site - you forgot the MC-Hammer pants in your history, though
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jul 25 10:11 PM
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                              --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "Shane Steinkamp"
                              <shane@t...> wrote:
                              >
                              http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/hiking/sections/gear/clothing/menin
                              skirts.htm )
                              >

                              Nice site - you forgot the MC-Hammer pants in your history, though :)
                            • Andy Mytys
                              Still other areas of interest include bug control, particularly ticks/mosquitos, and how dirty one gets when moving down a dusty trail. It the case of bugs,
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jul 26 6:31 AM
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                                Still other areas of interest include bug control, particularly
                                ticks/mosquitos, and how dirty one gets when moving down a dusty
                                trail. It the case of bugs, I've had 'em move up through the
                                openings in pant legs, and can only imagine that the situation would
                                be worse with a skirt. Of course, this is what the testers are
                                for :)
                              • WoodlandSprite
                                I will admit to discussing thigh chafing in my report, tho I did not address your other concerns - For me, I didn t notice any dirt building up on the hem, but
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jul 26 10:48 AM
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                                  I will admit to discussing thigh chafing in my report, tho I did not address your other concerns - For me, I didn't notice any dirt building up on the hem, but then I tended to hitch the skirt up due to tripping concerns...

                                  -Steph

                                  Andy Mytys <amytys@...> wrote:
                                  The only chafing I see being discussed is thigh chafing in Shane's
                                  report. Indirectly, I guess Shane hits chafing between the two
                                  checks.

                                  I'd still like to hear the experiences of other testers on the
                                  topics I've touched on. One perspective is great. Three is
                                  better. Six is even better!


                                  ---------------------------------
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                                  New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Shane
                                  ... I m saving that for the LTR. Essentially, I have had no trouble with bugs, and the skirt is very easy to check for ticks. I had long believed that
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jul 26 10:56 AM
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                                    > Still other areas of interest include bug control, particularly
                                    > ticks/mosquitos, and how dirty one gets when moving down a dusty
                                    > trail. It the case of bugs, I've had 'em move up through the
                                    > openings in pant legs, and can only imagine that the situation would
                                    > be worse with a skirt. Of course, this is what the testers are
                                    > for :)

                                    I'm saving that for the LTR. Essentially, I have had no trouble with bugs,
                                    and the skirt is very easy to check for ticks.

                                    I had long believed that mosquitoes could not bite through the Supplex
                                    material because the weave is too small. I have used Supplex clothing to
                                    keep bugs off me, and I have never had a bite through it. On one - and only
                                    one - occasion, I did have a mosquito bite me through the Macabi. The
                                    material was stretched very tight over my knee, and that's where she got me.
                                    I'm going to do more research in this regard, but I'll probably treat the
                                    skirt with permethrin after that.

                                    Shane
                                  • Thomas Peltier@Goldenautomotive.com
                                    I d have SWORN that I posted my Macabi report. Chuck even replied to it, but I can t find it in the archive. I will repost it shortly in light of Andy s
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jul 26 11:26 AM
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                                      I'd have SWORN that I posted my Macabi report. Chuck even replied to it,
                                      but I can't find it in the archive. I will repost it shortly in light of
                                      Andy's comments. I am VERY sorry that it seems to have been eaten by
                                      Yahoo!.
                                      _________________________________________________

                                      Seems to be going around. I had even made a mental note to make a
                                      comment about this but I forgot to write it in my log book. I have just
                                      returned from a wedding in Los Angeles and will try to post my Macabi
                                      Report to the list tonight.

                                      Tom
                                    • Rick Allnutt
                                      ... Andy, What is your waist size? I have a couple different prototypes I am done with. I could send you one (gratis) if one of them would fit. Then you can
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Aug 1, 2004
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                                        Andy Mytys wrote:

                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > For $77, I'm not willing to invest in the experiment. These reports
                                        > certainly have been entertaining, but they still haven't sold me on
                                        > the advantages of the skirt, and I have lingering doubts/questions.
                                        >
                                        Andy,

                                        What is your waist size? I have a couple different prototypes I am done
                                        with. I could send you one (gratis) if one of them would fit. Then you
                                        can start answering your questions firsthand - which is best, of course.

                                        A similar method would be to hop into your nearby goodwill store or its
                                        equivalent. Look for knee length or longer canvas or jeans material
                                        skirts with pockets. Something will be there that does not look feminine
                                        or girlish. It will give you the idea of how the system works. I was
                                        able to pick up my original prototype for $4 this way if I remember. I
                                        would not do much camping in it, because it is cotton, but it was enough
                                        to try on a day hike.

                                        Third option is to take Shane up on his wrap-around, though the ways I
                                        have tied them they are more restrictive than a kilt. (Admitting here
                                        that I have not taken Shane up on learning how to tie one properly.)

                                        Rick
                                      • Rick Allnutt
                                        ... I collected most of Andy s questions and answered them from my perspective of 200 miles in a couple different hiking kilts. Not to belabor this list, I
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Aug 1, 2004
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                                          Andy Mytys wrote:

                                          >
                                          > Looks like the Field Reporting is pretty much done. I see all kinds
                                          > of comments about the garments design, strength, reflections on
                                          > modesty, etc.
                                          >
                                          > I still haven't read anything much about things like sweat factor
                                          > underneath, and if there are any differences in "chafing"
                                          > encountered when compared to more traditional pants...


                                          I collected most of Andy's questions and answered them from my
                                          perspective of 200 miles in a couple different hiking kilts. Not to
                                          belabor this list, I put the questions and my answers over on Shane's
                                          new list. My experience is not as a tester of the Macabe, but perhaps
                                          these answers will help.

                                          If anyone else has interest, they can track this conversation over there.

                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HikingSkirts/messages

                                          Rick
                                        • Andy Mytys
                                          ... Growing every day, but on this afternoon I fit into a size 34 pair of Dockers, with a little room to spare.
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Aug 1, 2004
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                                            --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Rick Allnutt <rick@b...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Andy,
                                            >
                                            > What is your waist size?


                                            Growing every day, but on this afternoon I fit into a size 34" pair
                                            of Dockers, with a little room to spare.
                                          • Rick Allnutt
                                            ... Well, with my 39 in waist I have something which is too little for me. It is cotton canvas and commercial and not very light, but it can be on your way.
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Aug 1, 2004
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                                              Andy Mytys wrote:

                                              > --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Rick Allnutt <rick@b...>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Andy,
                                              > >
                                              > > What is your waist size?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Growing every day, but on this afternoon I fit into a size 34" pair
                                              > of Dockers, with a little room to spare.
                                              >
                                              Well, with my 39 in waist I have something which is too little for me.
                                              It is cotton canvas and commercial and not very light, but it can be on
                                              your way. The pockets are really too small, but they are in the right
                                              places. It has belt loops and that should take up any excess slack in
                                              the waist. Please send me your post address to my email direct. It will
                                              be yours, not a loan. I will pay shipping.

                                              Rick
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