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resubmit - INITIAL REPORT - JetBoil Stove

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  • Andy Rad
    Resubmitted after rewritting section on differences between larger and smaller fuel canister. Reformatted from HTML and cleaned up. Posted to test site for
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 1, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Resubmitted after rewritting section on differences between larger
      and smaller fuel canister.

      Reformatted from HTML and cleaned up.
      Posted to test site for view of TABLE and PHOTO.
      http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/test/TESTS/Resubmit%20-%
      20JetBoil%20-%20by%20Andy%20Rad/>


      JetBoil Stove

      Initial Report April 1, 2004

      Reviewer Information & Background
      Name: Andy Rad Location: Boise, ID USA
      Age: 46 Gender: Male
      Height: 6 ft (1.83 m) Weight: 165 lb (75 kg)
      Email: aisrad@...

      I started backpacking 21 years ago, mostly 3 day trips with at least
      one 7 day trip per year. By backpacking, I'm referring to summer,
      winter camping, and occasionally fall hunting. About half my trips
      are light weight solo and the other half with family or friends. At
      least once a year I bring a small group of church kids on a 3 day
      trip. I purchased a pet/pack llama, named Sarapi, when my 3rd child
      was 2, some 11 years ago. This allowed me to continue backpacking as
      a family activity. When I'm not with the family/llama I tend to take
      less-traveled trails or bushwhack the hard mountainous terrain in and
      around Idaho. In recent years I've begun substituting a collie for
      the llama.


      Product Information
      Maufacturer: Jetboil
      MSRP: $79.00 (US)
      Model: PCS (Personal Cooking System) Listed
      Weight: 14 oz (397 g)
      Year of Manufacture: 2004
      Measured Weight: 15.4 oz (436 g)
      Color: Aluminum/Black
      URL: http://www.jetboil.com


      Initial Impressions

      Packaging and Package Contents: The Jetboil PCS (Personal Cooking
      System) arrived in good order, along with 2 Jetboil 100 gram fuel
      canisters. The Jetboil PCS box is attractive, compact, and designed
      to provide adequate protection for on-the-self merchandising. The
      over-package shipping container was cleverly designed to house the
      Jetboil PCS with a special cardboard cradle to house 2 fuel
      canisters. Since neither Jetboil nor their WEB listed distributor,
      Eastern Mountain Sports, has the PCS listed as a package deal, it
      would appear they developed this special combo shipping container for
      test distribution.

      Instructions are provided in English only, populated with numerous
      photos, and loaded with safety warnings. One would think this thing
      was a small reactor with all the safety warnings, but given the
      possibility of lawsuits, they covered themselves well. If the user
      spills hot liquid, use the unit inside confined spaces, or unscrews
      the fuel canister while in operation and causes a flare up, they have
      no-one to blame but themselves, as they are thoroughly warned.

      Overview Of Materials, Construction, and Features: Jetboil's web site
      does a good job of providing an overview of the unit and from an arm-
      lengths distance it appears the same. The unit consists of 5 pieces,
      a Burner Base, Cooking Cup, Lid, FluxRing protector, and insulator
      they call a Cozy. The heat-exchanger, which JetBoil trademarks as
      FluxRing, is composed of anodized aluminum, as is the cooking cup,
      with each fin welded to the cooking cup. They definitely are onto
      something with this heat-exchanger, as will become evident when I
      discuss the efficiency test results.

      The insulating Cozy is about 1/8 in (3mm), which seems thin from both
      durability and insulating properties, but that will be noted during
      field testing. The lid has a drinking spout, is make from stout
      plastic, and attaches via friction fit. The Burner Base is comprised
      of a plastic base, stainless wind shield/housing, and steel/brass
      burner. The only component on the unit that would be susceptible to
      corrosion would be the steel gauze in the center of the burner. As a
      side note, the burner head itself and piezo electric igniter are
      almost identical to another manufactures burner I have, except the
      orifice is restricted which translates to a restricted flame size.

      One item that is not listed on their web site nor appears in any of
      the manufactures photos is a plastic cup/protector that attaches to
      the base of the cooking cup. Even though the heat-exchanger fins are
      nested inside the base, Jetboil must feel that they are susceptible
      to damage, thus provide the protector. Nevertheless, the base
      protector also doubles as a drinking cub and even has a 1 cup (250ml)
      marking.

      As per Jetboil's web site the Cooking Cup does have a 1 liter
      capacity when filled to the brim, but the documentation states that
      the maximum fill is 2 cups (or 250 ml) and is marked inside the cup.
      The instructions warn that filling beyond 2 cups results in potential
      boil over. I see this as a discrepancy when listing the unit as
      having a 1 liter capacity, but then informing the user not to exceed
      2 cups . I have a concern on stove stability if filled beyond 2
      cups, considering that the combined Cooking Cup and Burner Base have
      an overall height of 9 in (23 cm). Place that on top of a 100 g fuel
      canister that has a 3.5 in diameter by 2.5 in height (8.9 x 6.4 cm)
      and you have a top-heavy stove and pot combination.

      Cooking Cup interior dimensions are 3.75 in dia. x 9 in (9.5 x 22.9
      cm), exterior dimensions are 4.1 in dia. x 7.1 in (10.4 x 18 cm).
      Jetboil's 100 g canister and Burner Base pack into the Cooking Cup
      for stowing/travel, but there is opportunity to damage the piezo
      electric igniter. The combined height of the fuel canister, canister
      valve protective cap, and Burner Base push the limits on what the
      Cooking Cup can handle, and leaves the Piezo electric igniter pushing
      on the lid where it is susceptible to damage. If packed without the
      fuel canister protective cap this is not an issue, but is in
      opposition to how the instructions describe packaging.

      Individual component weights (TABLE)

      Description

      Weight
      Cooking Cup & Cozy 7.4 oz (210 g)
      Lid 1.1 oz (32 g)
      Burner 6.0 oz (170 g)
      Lower Cup Protector 0.9 oz (25 g)
      100 g JetBoil Fuel Canister 6.8 oz (193 g)


      Initial Testing:

      Testing reviled that the Jetboil is highly efficient in comparison to
      my white-gas and canister stoves. Traditional stove efficiency is a
      function of the cooking pot surface area and flame size. A small 5
      in (12 mm) diameter pot on top of a large burner is very inefficient
      due to the flame extending beyond the pot and heating the surrounding
      air. Conversely, a large 10 in (25 cm) diameter pot on the same
      burner would be considerably more efficient due to the flame
      contacting 4 times the surface area. This same principle is applied
      to the Jetboil with its aluminum heat-exchanger. The flame must
      travel through a maze of coils before exiting. Unlike the small pot
      and large burner where the exiting flames are very hot, the exhaust
      on the Jetboil is so cool that your able to put your hands within a
      couple inches (5 cm) of the exhaust ports. Unlike traditional
      stoves, the efficiency of running the burner at full open verses
      reduced flame was not substantial, as it only reduced fuel
      consumption by 7%. Traditional stove efficiency increases
      substantially when the flame is reduced to accommodate a small
      surface pot. I generally run my traditional stoves at about 60% when
      using a 6 in (15 cm) pot.

      Testing between a generic Isobutene/Propane 8 oz (227 g) fuel
      canister and JetBoil 100 g canister were also conducted, and there
      were no significant differences. I did observed that during
      consecutive boil tests the boil time increased slightly with the
      smaller JetBoil canister, however if 5 or more minutes passed between
      tests this phenomenon went away. I suspect this can be explained by
      the larger canister's mass sinking more heat caused by the
      vaporization of the liquid fuel, whereas the small canister became
      colder. This is due to reduced gas pressure caused by the
      vaporization of the fuel cooling the canister.

      Running the unit with and without the lid made negligible difference
      in fuel consumption, but did require 5% more time. Interpellation of
      my 0.1 g balance beam scale could account for the negligible
      difference in fuel consumption.

      Initial Report Test Setup
      *Tests performed with 500ml (2 cups) of 10oC (50oF) water
      *All temperatures in Celsius with partial immersion mercury
      thermometer (boil temp of 98oC)
      *Weights in grams, measured by 0.1 gram accuracy triple beam
      balance
      *Ambient temp of 68oF (20oC) @ 2100 ft (670 m)
      *5 minutes between test with cup filled with ambient temp
      water
      *For comparison purposes, traditional canister and white gas
      stoves with 1.3 liter titanium pot
      *White gas required 2 ml of fuel to prime and 1 ml of fuel
      was resident in hose that is discarded upon disassembly (1ml = 0.7 g)

      Field Report Test Setup (anticipate completing the table during field
      test period at different altitudes and reposting)

      ******TABLE*****
      INITIAL REPORT FIELD REPORT
      JetBoil Non JetBoil with 1.3 liter
      6" base Titanium Pot JetBoil
      Lid On Lid Off Canister Stove White Gas White Gas
      1 liter water
      Full Flame ~60% Flame ~30% Flame Full Flame ~60%
      Flame ~60% Flame ~60% Flame
      Boil Time 193 sec 240 sec 405 sec 202 sec 227 sec 330 sec 720
      sec
      Fuel Consumed 5.4 g 5.0 g 4.8 g 5.4 g 7.1 g 10.5 g 16.9 g

      Initial Temp 10 10 10 10 10 10 10
      30 sec 22 22 16 20 25
      1 min 35 35 24 33 38
      1 min 30 sec 49 46 29 47 48
      2 min 63 56 36 60 59
      2 min 30 sec 76 66 43 73 69
      3 min 89 76 49 85 81
      3 min 30 sec 86 56 92
      4 min 96 62
      4 min 30 sec 68
      5 min 74
      5 min 30 sec 80
      6 min 86
      6 min 30 sec 92



      Testing Strategy:

      Although the stove is slightly heavier than my alcohol stove, it will
      be used on my solo trips. This opens it up to a full season of use.
      Since my wife occasionally like pancakes, I'd like to experiment with
      making an adapter that would allow the burner to be used as a free
      standing stove under a small pan. This is not advised per the
      instructions and will have to be evaluated. JetBoil's design and
      efficiency opens up the opportunity for them to manufacture
      alternative pots and pans besides the Cooking Cup.

      My trips will be primarily in Idaho, with at least one trip next to
      the Canadian boarder, several trips into central Idaho, a couple
      trips into the Idaho Sawtooth wilderness, a week in the Challis
      wilderness, and I'm working on a fall trip into Yellowstone.
      Elevation will be between 6,500 to 11,000 ft (2000 to 3300m).
      Temperatures will be between 25 to 85oF (-4 to 30oC)..

      In order to complete the boiling table, I'll have to perform a couple
      of boiling test at the trail heads where I can have some control over
      water temperature and canister weight. That will likely limit my
      empirical test elevation to about 7,000 ft (2100 m)
    • Edward Ripley-Duggan
      Andy -- I looked over your IR with great interest, since I ve been intrigued by the Jetboil since I first saw it in action. I ve resisted getting one as I own
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 1, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Andy -- I looked over your IR with great interest, since I've been
        intrigued by the Jetboil since I first saw it in action. I've resisted
        getting one as I own too many stoves! One thing that I was curious about.
        In the canister stove comparison were you using any form of windshield? I
        use a aluminum flashing shield (pretty much the design that the guy at
        Backpacking Light came up with) on my Snow Peak. It doesn't cause any of
        the dread canister heating. I have a feeling (not yet put to formal test)
        that it significantly improves efficiency. If you don't use a shield, in a
        way it's comparing apples and oranges. Also curious to know (maybe I missed
        this) which stove you were using for that test, though it may not be hugely
        relevant. This is not a critique, merely curiosity.

        Ted.




        >Message: 21
        > Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 06:17:27 -0000
        > From: "Andy Rad" <andy.rad@...>
        >Subject: INITIAL REPORT - JetBoil Stove
        >
        >Reformatted from HTML and cleaned up.
        >Posted to test site for view of TABLE and PHOTO.
        >http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/test/TESTS/JetBoil%20-%20by%
        >20Andy%20Rad/
        >

        Reply to: erd@...
        WILSEY RARE BOOKS, MEMBER ABAA
        http://www.wilsey.net
        Phone: (845) 657-7057 Fax: (845) 657-2366
      • Dennis Shubitowski
        Very interesting report Andy - good work. I just glanced at the HTML because the tables don t come through in e-mail and noticed the fonts and font sizes in
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 1, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Very interesting report Andy - good work. I just glanced at the HTML
          because the tables don't come through in e-mail and noticed the fonts
          and font sizes in the report are all over the map. Unless you are going
          for a specific look as far as a font goes, you may want to remove all
          the font designations in the HTML and let the user's browser fill in the
          default. This discussion should probably be moved the BGTUploadHelp
          group if you wanted to discuss further.

          Dennis

          Andy Rad wrote:

          >Resubmitted after rewritting section on differences between larger
          >and smaller fuel canister.
          >
          >Reformatted from HTML and cleaned up.
          >Posted to test site for view of TABLE and PHOTO.
          >http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/test/TESTS/Resubmit%20-%
          >20JetBoil%20-%20by%20Andy%20Rad/>
          >
        • Andy Rad
          No wind shild used on the canister stove (Primas Alpine Micro), but I did use the factory supplied wind shild on the MSR Whisperlight. I ran both stoves at
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 1, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            No wind shild used on the canister stove (Primas Alpine Micro), but I
            did use the factory supplied wind shild on the MSR Whisperlight.

            I ran both stoves at ~60% flame output to compensate for shield and
            the pan only having a 6" base.

            As noted the flame exhaust was not hot.

            I'd be interested in learning more about the shield you mentioned and
            could rerun the test on the Primus.

            Andy


            --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Edward Ripley-Duggan
            <erd@w...> wrote:
            > Andy -- I looked over your IR with great interest, since I've been
            > intrigued by the Jetboil since I first saw it in action. I've
            resisted
            > getting one as I own too many stoves! One thing that I was curious
            about.
            > In the canister stove comparison were you using any form of
            windshield? I
            > use a aluminum flashing shield (pretty much the design that the guy
            at
            > Backpacking Light came up with) on my Snow Peak. It doesn't cause
            any of
            > the dread canister heating. I have a feeling (not yet put to formal
            test)
            > that it significantly improves efficiency. If you don't use a
            shield, in a
            > way it's comparing apples and oranges. Also curious to know (maybe
            I missed
            > this) which stove you were using for that test, though it may not
            be hugely
            > relevant. This is not a critique, merely curiosity.
            >
            > Ted.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > >Message: 21
            > > Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 06:17:27 -0000
            > > From: "Andy Rad" <andy.rad@h...>
            > >Subject: INITIAL REPORT - JetBoil Stove
            > >
            > >Reformatted from HTML and cleaned up.
            > >Posted to test site for view of TABLE and PHOTO.
            > >http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/test/TESTS/JetBoil%20-%
            20by%
            > >20Andy%20Rad/
            > >
            >
            > Reply to: erd@w...
            > WILSEY RARE BOOKS, MEMBER ABAA
            > http://www.wilsey.net
            > Phone: (845) 657-7057 Fax: (845) 657-2366
          • Rick D.
            No you don t; it s not possible to own too many stoves. Please seek help soon! If you don t believe me, just ask around :-) --Rick (who could use at least one
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 1, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              No you don't; it's not possible to own too many stoves. Please seek
              help soon!

              If you don't believe me, just ask around :-)

              --Rick (who could use at least one more stove.)

              --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Edward Ripley-Duggan
              <erd@w...> wrote:
              > Andy -- I looked over your IR with great interest, since I've been
              > intrigued by the Jetboil since I first saw it in action. I've
              resisted
              > getting one as I own too many stoves!
            • Rami
              [[R:]] Hi Andy, Fantastic IR! Some minor edits follow, once you ve made those, feel free to upload at your convenience and delete your test folder version.
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 1, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                [[R:]] Hi Andy, Fantastic IR! Some minor edits follow, once you've made
                those, feel free to upload at your convenience and delete your test
                folder version. Thanks,

                Rami




                Reformatted from HTML and cleaned up.
                Posted to test site for view of TABLE and PHOTO.
                http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/test/TESTS/Resubmit%20-%
                20JetBoil%20-%20by%20Andy%20Rad/>

                [[R:]]
                As Dennis said, review your code with special attention to fonts and
                sizes.


                In recent years I've begun substituting a collie for
                the llama.

                [[R:]] how does he do with the llama's pack? ;-)


                Product Information
                Maufacturer: Jetboil
                MSRP: $79.00 (US)
                Model: PCS (Personal Cooking System) Listed
                Weight: 14 oz (397 g)
                Year of Manufacture: 2004
                Measured Weight: 15.4 oz (436 g)
                Color: Aluminum/Black
                URL: http://www.jetboil.com


                [[R:]] Check out this table in the HTML version- in my view, the spacing
                of a couple items is out of proportion. Model name and year of
                manufacture are both funky...




                Overview Of Materials, The unit consists of 5 pieces,
                a Burner Base, Cooking Cup, Lid, FluxRing protector, and insulator
                they call a Cozy. The heat-exchanger, which JetBoil trademarks as
                FluxRing, is composed of anodized aluminum,

                [[R:]] Please include the appropriate service mark in your HTML version
                when referring to the FluxRing.


                The lid has a drinking spout, is make from stout
                plastic,

                [[R:]] ...is made from...

                must feel that they are susceptible
                to damage, thus provide the protector.

                [[R:]] ...thus providing the...

                Nevertheless, the base
                protector also doubles as a drinking cub and even has a 1 cup (250ml)
                marking.

                [[R:]] ...drinking cup...


                As per Jetboil's web site the Cooking Cup does have a 1 liter
                capacity when filled to the brim, but the documentation states that
                the maximum fill is 2 cups (or 250 ml)

                [[R:]] 2 cups = 500 ml


                and is marked inside the cup.
                The instructions warn that filling beyond 2 cups results in potential
                boil over. I see this as a discrepancy when listing the unit as
                having a 1 liter capacity, but then informing the user not to exceed
                2 cups . I have a concern on stove stability if filled beyond 2
                cups, considering that the combined Cooking Cup and Burner Base have
                an overall height of 9 in (23 cm). Place that on top of a 100 g fuel
                canister that has a 3.5 in diameter by 2.5 in height (8.9 x 6.4 cm)
                and you have a top-heavy stove and pot combination.

                [[R:]] If my brain weren't mushy tonight, I'd calculate the stoves cg
                for you... ;-)


                Initial Testing:

                Testing reviled that the Jetboil

                [[R:]] ...Testing revealed...

                5% more time. Interpellation of
                my 0.1 g balance beam scale could account for the negligible
                difference in fuel consumption.

                [[R:]] did you mean to use Interpellation...
                ( Definitions of interpellation on the Web:

                (parliament) a procedure of demanding that a government official explain
                some act or policy

                <http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=interpellati
                on> www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn




                the action of interjecting or interposing an action or remark that
                interrupts

                <http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=interpellati
                on> www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn )

                or were you shooting for interpolation
                ( Definitions of Interpolation on the Web:


                The estimation of z values of a surface at an unsampled point based on
                the known z values of surrounding points.
                <http://www.esri.com/library/glossary/i_l.html>
                www.esri.com/library/glossary/i_l.html



                To estimate on the basis of some rule. Hence linear interpolation
                estimates the position of points from values of the respective function
                on either side of the point.
                <http://www.sciencemaster.com/physical/item/solar_glossary.php>
                www.sciencemaster.com/physical/item/solar_glossary.php



                The idea of estimating some value between two values. In LP, an
                interpolation estimate of the optimal objective value, say
                z(ab+(1-a)b'), is az(b) + (1-a)z(b').
                <http://carbon.cudenver.edu/~hgreenbe/glossary/I.html>
                carbon.cudenver.edu/~hgreenbe/glossary/I.html )... ?







                My trips will be primarily in Idaho, with at least one trip next to
                the Canadian boarder,

                [[R:]] ...Canadian Border...



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Rami
                whoops! forgot to change the subject... -r ... From: Rami [mailto:rbenhameda@comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 9:18 PM To:
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 1, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  whoops! forgot to change the subject...

                  -r

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Rami [mailto:rbenhameda@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 9:18 PM
                  To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                  Cc: 'Rad, Andy'
                  Subject: RE: [BackpackGearTest] resubmit - INITIAL REPORT - JetBoil
                  Stove


                  [[R:]] Hi Andy, Fantastic IR! Some minor edits follow, once you've made
                  those, feel free to upload at your convenience and delete your test
                  folder version. Thanks,

                  Rami




                  Reformatted from HTML and cleaned up.
                  Posted to test site for view of TABLE and PHOTO.
                  http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/test/TESTS/Resubmit%20-%
                  20JetBoil%20-%20by%20Andy%20Rad/>

                  [[R:]]
                  As Dennis said, review your code with special attention to fonts and
                  sizes.


                  In recent years I've begun substituting a collie for
                  the llama.

                  [[R:]] how does he do with the llama's pack? ;-)


                  Product Information
                  Maufacturer: Jetboil
                  MSRP: $79.00 (US)
                  Model: PCS (Personal Cooking System) Listed
                  Weight: 14 oz (397 g)
                  Year of Manufacture: 2004
                  Measured Weight: 15.4 oz (436 g)
                  Color: Aluminum/Black
                  URL: http://www.jetboil.com


                  [[R:]] Check out this table in the HTML version- in my view, the spacing
                  of a couple items is out of proportion. Model name and year of
                  manufacture are both funky...




                  Overview Of Materials, The unit consists of 5 pieces,
                  a Burner Base, Cooking Cup, Lid, FluxRing protector, and insulator
                  they call a Cozy. The heat-exchanger, which JetBoil trademarks as
                  FluxRing, is composed of anodized aluminum,

                  [[R:]] Please include the appropriate service mark in your HTML version
                  when referring to the FluxRing.


                  The lid has a drinking spout, is make from stout
                  plastic,

                  [[R:]] ...is made from...

                  must feel that they are susceptible
                  to damage, thus provide the protector.

                  [[R:]] ...thus providing the...

                  Nevertheless, the base
                  protector also doubles as a drinking cub and even has a 1 cup (250ml)
                  marking.

                  [[R:]] ...drinking cup...


                  As per Jetboil's web site the Cooking Cup does have a 1 liter
                  capacity when filled to the brim, but the documentation states that
                  the maximum fill is 2 cups (or 250 ml)

                  [[R:]] 2 cups = 500 ml


                  and is marked inside the cup.
                  The instructions warn that filling beyond 2 cups results in potential
                  boil over. I see this as a discrepancy when listing the unit as
                  having a 1 liter capacity, but then informing the user not to exceed
                  2 cups . I have a concern on stove stability if filled beyond 2
                  cups, considering that the combined Cooking Cup and Burner Base have
                  an overall height of 9 in (23 cm). Place that on top of a 100 g fuel
                  canister that has a 3.5 in diameter by 2.5 in height (8.9 x 6.4 cm)
                  and you have a top-heavy stove and pot combination.

                  [[R:]] If my brain weren't mushy tonight, I'd calculate the stoves cg
                  for you... ;-)


                  Initial Testing:

                  Testing reviled that the Jetboil

                  [[R:]] ...Testing revealed...

                  5% more time. Interpellation of
                  my 0.1 g balance beam scale could account for the negligible
                  difference in fuel consumption.

                  [[R:]] did you mean to use Interpellation...
                  ( Definitions of interpellation on the Web:

                  (parliament) a procedure of demanding that a government official explain
                  some act or policy

                  <http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1
                  <http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=interpellati
                  > &word=interpellati
                  on> www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn




                  the action of interjecting or interposing an action or remark that
                  interrupts

                  <http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1
                  <http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=interpellati
                  > &word=interpellati
                  on> www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn )

                  or were you shooting for interpolation
                  ( Definitions of Interpolation on the Web:


                  The estimation of z values of a surface at an unsampled point based on
                  the known z values of surrounding points.
                  <http://www.esri.com/library/glossary/i_l.html>
                  www.esri.com/library/glossary/i_l.html



                  To estimate on the basis of some rule. Hence linear interpolation
                  estimates the position of points from values of the respective function
                  on either side of the point.
                  <http://www.sciencemaster.com/physical/item/solar_glossary.php>
                  www.sciencemaster.com/physical/item/solar_glossary.php



                  The idea of estimating some value between two values. In LP, an
                  interpolation estimate of the optimal objective value, say
                  z(ab+(1-a)b'), is az(b) + (1-a)z(b').
                  <http://carbon.cudenver.edu/~hgreenbe/glossary/I.html>
                  carbon.cudenver.edu/~hgreenbe/glossary/I.html )... ?







                  My trips will be primarily in Idaho, with at least one trip next to
                  the Canadian boarder,

                  [[R:]] ...Canadian Border...



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  _____

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                • Andy Rad
                  I constructed a heat exchanger somewhat like MSR s XPD Heat Exchanger and used on the Primas gas canister stove. To my surprise it made NO difference in
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 5, 2004
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                    I constructed a heat exchanger somewhat like MSR's XPD Heat Exchanger
                    and used on the Primas gas canister stove. To my surprise it made NO
                    difference in efficiency. I believe if I were heating 1 liter of
                    water instead of 500ml it might have helped. There was a lot of heat
                    directed up the side of the pot that wasn't being utilized.

                    I did some preliminary test times with the Whisperlight at full flame
                    and it cut a 1 liter boil from 7:45 minutes to 6:45 minutes. I used
                    a 7 inch stainless pan.

                    Just goes to prove the Jetboil is efficent.

                    Views of exchanger

                    http://myweb.cableone.net/aisrad/ebay/PotTopView.jpg

                    http://myweb.cableone.net/aisrad/ebay/PotBotView.jpg


                    Andy
                    --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Edward Ripley-Duggan
                    <erd@w...> wrote:
                    > Andy -- I looked over your IR with great interest, since I've been
                    > intrigued by the Jetboil since I first saw it in action. I've
                    resisted
                    > getting one as I own too many stoves! One thing that I was curious
                    about.
                    > In the canister stove comparison were you using any form of
                    windshield? I
                    > use a aluminum flashing shield (pretty much the design that the guy
                    at
                    > Backpacking Light came up with) on my Snow Peak. It doesn't cause
                    any of
                    > the dread canister heating. I have a feeling (not yet put to formal
                    test)
                    > that it significantly improves efficiency. If you don't use a
                    shield, in a
                    > way it's comparing apples and oranges. Also curious to know (maybe
                    I missed
                    > this) which stove you were using for that test, though it may not
                    be hugely
                    > relevant. This is not a critique, merely curiosity.
                    >
                    > Ted.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > >Message: 21
                    > > Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 06:17:27 -0000
                    > > From: "Andy Rad" <andy.rad@h...>
                    > >Subject: INITIAL REPORT - JetBoil Stove
                    > >
                    > >Reformatted from HTML and cleaned up.
                    > >Posted to test site for view of TABLE and PHOTO.
                    > >http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/test/TESTS/JetBoil%20-%
                    20by%
                    > >20Andy%20Rad/
                    > >
                    >
                    > Reply to: erd@w...
                    > WILSEY RARE BOOKS, MEMBER ABAA
                    > http://www.wilsey.net
                    > Phone: (845) 657-7057 Fax: (845) 657-2366
                  • Andy Rad
                    Found this interesting, it sure surprised me. I used a whisper light with a large fuel bottle, thus it held its pressure for the duration of the test. Gave it
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 12, 2004
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                      Found this interesting, it sure surprised me.

                      I used a whisper light with a large fuel bottle, thus it held its
                      pressure for the duration of the test. Gave it a few pumps between
                      tests.
                      Whisper light is of shaker type and ran shaker between tests.
                      Valve open all the way

                      I used 1 liter of 50F water for all testing, in minutes to boil
                      1.8 liter stainless pot with heat exchanger and wind shield = 7.55
                      minutes
                      1.8 liter stainless pot with wind shield = 8:20 minutes
                      1.5 liter aluminum pot with wind shield = 8:30 minutes
                      1.8 liter stainless pot with OUT wind shield 8:10
                      1.3 liter Titanium with wind shield 8:30

                      Of course there were some slight variations on when I called it
                      boiling and such.

                      Observation: wind shield makes no difference. Heat exchanger is only
                      marginally effective ~5%.

                      No significant differences between tests.

                      I really expected the heat exchanger and wind shield to do more, as
                      it gets the pot hot on the sides.

                      I think I'll include this analysis with my BoilJet stove.

                      I'm impressed by the efficiency of the BoilJet.

                      Andy

                      --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Rad" <andy.rad@h...>
                      wrote:
                      > I constructed a heat exchanger somewhat like MSR's XPD Heat
                      Exchanger
                      > and used on the Primas gas canister stove. To my surprise it made
                      NO
                      > difference in efficiency. I believe if I were heating 1 liter of
                      > water instead of 500ml it might have helped. There was a lot of
                      heat
                      > directed up the side of the pot that wasn't being utilized.
                      >
                      > I did some preliminary test times with the Whisperlight at full
                      flame
                      > and it cut a 1 liter boil from 7:45 minutes to 6:45 minutes. I
                      used
                      > a 7 inch stainless pan.
                      >
                      > Just goes to prove the Jetboil is efficent.
                      >
                      > Views of exchanger
                      >
                      > http://myweb.cableone.net/aisrad/ebay/PotTopView.jpg
                      >
                      > http://myweb.cableone.net/aisrad/ebay/PotBotView.jpg
                      >
                      >
                      > Andy
                      > --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Edward Ripley-Duggan
                      > <erd@w...> wrote:
                      > > Andy -- I looked over your IR with great interest, since I've
                      been
                      > > intrigued by the Jetboil since I first saw it in action. I've
                      > resisted
                      > > getting one as I own too many stoves! One thing that I was
                      curious
                      > about.
                      > > In the canister stove comparison were you using any form of
                      > windshield? I
                      > > use a aluminum flashing shield (pretty much the design that the
                      guy
                      > at
                      > > Backpacking Light came up with) on my Snow Peak. It doesn't cause
                      > any of
                      > > the dread canister heating. I have a feeling (not yet put to
                      formal
                      > test)
                      > > that it significantly improves efficiency. If you don't use a
                      > shield, in a
                      > > way it's comparing apples and oranges. Also curious to know
                      (maybe
                      > I missed
                      > > this) which stove you were using for that test, though it may not
                      > be hugely
                      > > relevant. This is not a critique, merely curiosity.
                      > >
                      > > Ted.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >Message: 21
                      > > > Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 06:17:27 -0000
                      > > > From: "Andy Rad" <andy.rad@h...>
                      > > >Subject: INITIAL REPORT - JetBoil Stove
                      > > >
                      > > >Reformatted from HTML and cleaned up.
                      > > >Posted to test site for view of TABLE and PHOTO.
                      > > >http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/test/TESTS/JetBoil%20-%
                      > 20by%
                      > > >20Andy%20Rad/
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > Reply to: erd@w...
                      > > WILSEY RARE BOOKS, MEMBER ABAA
                      > > http://www.wilsey.net
                      > > Phone: (845) 657-7057 Fax: (845) 657-2366
                    • SF Nazdarovye
                      Andy - did you do this test in calm conditions or with wind? If in calm, I would bet the wind shield and exchanger would make a big difference if you tested
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 12, 2004
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                        Andy - did you do this test in calm conditions or with wind?

                        If in calm, I would bet the wind shield and exchanger would make a big
                        difference if you tested them again in significantly windy conditions.


                        On Apr 12, 2004, at 3:45 PM, Andy Rad wrote:

                        > Found this interesting, it sure surprised me.
                        >
                        > I used a whisper light with a large fuel bottle, thus it held its
                        > pressure for the duration of the test. Gave it a few pumps between
                        > tests.
                        > Whisper light is of shaker type and ran shaker between tests.
                        > Valve open all the way
                        >
                        > I used 1 liter of 50F water for all testing, in minutes to boil
                        > 1.8 liter stainless pot with heat exchanger and wind shield = 7.55
                        > minutes
                        > 1.8 liter stainless pot with wind shield = 8:20 minutes
                        > 1.5 liter aluminum pot with wind shield = 8:30 minutes
                        > 1.8 liter stainless pot with OUT wind shield 8:10
                        > 1.3 liter Titanium with wind shield 8:30
                        >
                        > Of course there were some slight variations on when I called it
                        > boiling and such.
                        >
                        > Observation: wind shield makes no difference. Heat exchanger is only
                        > marginally effective ~5%.
                        >
                        > No significant differences between tests.
                        >
                        > I really expected the heat exchanger and wind shield to do more, as
                        > it gets the pot hot on the sides.
                        >
                        > I think I'll include this analysis with my BoilJet stove.
                        >
                        > I'm impressed by the efficiency of the BoilJet.
                        >
                        > Andy
                      • Andy Rad
                        Calm condition. Yes I would agree on the wind shield, but heat exchanger I wouldn t think make any differnece. andy ... big ... conditions. ... between ...
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 13, 2004
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                          Calm condition. Yes I would agree on the wind shield, but heat
                          exchanger I wouldn't think make any differnece.

                          andy

                          --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, SF Nazdarovye
                          <nazdarovye@y...> wrote:
                          > Andy - did you do this test in calm conditions or with wind?
                          >
                          > If in calm, I would bet the wind shield and exchanger would make a
                          big
                          > difference if you tested them again in significantly windy
                          conditions.
                          >
                          >
                          > On Apr 12, 2004, at 3:45 PM, Andy Rad wrote:
                          >
                          > > Found this interesting, it sure surprised me.
                          > >
                          > > I used a whisper light with a large fuel bottle, thus it held its
                          > > pressure for the duration of the test. Gave it a few pumps
                          between
                          > > tests.
                          > > Whisper light is of shaker type and ran shaker between tests.
                          > > Valve open all the way
                          > >
                          > > I used 1 liter of 50F water for all testing, in minutes to boil
                          > > 1.8 liter stainless pot with heat exchanger and wind shield = 7.55
                          > > minutes
                          > > 1.8 liter stainless pot with wind shield = 8:20 minutes
                          > > 1.5 liter aluminum pot with wind shield = 8:30 minutes
                          > > 1.8 liter stainless pot with OUT wind shield 8:10
                          > > 1.3 liter Titanium with wind shield 8:30
                          > >
                          > > Of course there were some slight variations on when I called it
                          > > boiling and such.
                          > >
                          > > Observation: wind shield makes no difference. Heat exchanger is
                          only
                          > > marginally effective ~5%.
                          > >
                          > > No significant differences between tests.
                          > >
                          > > I really expected the heat exchanger and wind shield to do more,
                          as
                          > > it gets the pot hot on the sides.
                          > >
                          > > I think I'll include this analysis with my BoilJet stove.
                          > >
                          > > I'm impressed by the efficiency of the BoilJet.
                          > >
                          > > Andy
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