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Re: Report compliance

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  • Eric.Kammerer@VerizonWireless.com
    If chosen to test something, I would have no problems with the credit card number and agreement. I would expect to receive something of value after performing
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 1, 2001
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      If chosen to test something, I would have no problems with the credit card
      number and agreement. I would expect to receive something of value after
      performing a valuable service. The value I would receive at a minimum is a free
      opportunity to determine if something will work for me -- even if I don't keep
      the item. I'm not asking for charity...

      The owner review thing sounds interesting. How would you choose a product?
      Given how fast products change, any long-term report is likely to be for a
      product that is no longer available. If you want an intermediate-term report
      (6-12 months after purchase), you might get much more information of value to
      the current buying public -- and thus the manufacturer.

      It might also be of value to request some reviews of the custom or semi-custom
      products. These are items such as Stephenson tents, McHale backpacks, the custom
      GVP packs, etc. that buyers may be leery of because they can't see them in a
      store. A friend of mine avoided the Stephenson tent because he couldn't touch it
      in a store and found very few reviews. My brother only got interested after he
      saw mine. Many of the smaller firms with really good gear could probably use the
      exposure.


      Eric
    • richard.dreher@jacobs.com
      Jerry, Issue #1 is a toughie, I m not sure that a pay-as-you-don t-go system accomplishes your goal. If someone has to pay for their piece of gear because they
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 1, 2001
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        Jerry,

        Issue #1 is a toughie, I'm not sure that a pay-as-you-don't-go system
        accomplishes your goal. If someone has to pay for their piece of gear
        because they don't file a report, we still haven't achieved 100%
        compliance, have we?. An additional headache for you is deciding when
        to pull the payment trigger. Do you do it within a day, a week, a
        month of the deadline? What if they're a day late with their report--
        do they get a 50% refund? Would it have any impact with a $12 item
        test or only with big ticket items? One thing I'm certain you don't
        want is to attach a dollar value to a given test--you want the
        quality to be the same for a $10 flashlight as it is for a $150
        sleeping bag.

        In addition, do you want potential legal entanglements resulting from
        gathering and holding CC#s?, not to mention the inevitable eruptions
        that will happen when you pull that trigger?

        It might all work, but I figure you need a devil's advocate or two at
        work here :-)

        I like idea #2 very much: formalized owner tests. I write ad hoc gear
        reviews all the time on various web boards that could easily be
        expanded for use here. (But, will the manufacturer care/pay any
        attention?)

        Idea #2 leads back to #1: What if we were to require (1,2,3...?)
        owner test reviews as a qualifier for becoming a new-gear tester?
        I'll bet dollars to Lil' Debbies that this process would filter out
        most of your deadbeats.

        --Rick
      • GearTester
        I don t care for the credit card idea either. It is cumbersome and anything that slows the manufacturer down makes it less likely they will come through. A
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 1, 2001
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          I don't care for the credit card idea either. It is cumbersome and anything
          that slows the manufacturer down makes it less likely they will come
          through. A cash deposit would limit testers to those who can afford the
          deposit but would be the most workable. PayPal would work but the sender can
          protest the charge at anytime and then the receiver (us) becomes responsible
          for the cash. I just can't think of anything else that will work either.
          Banning doesn't seem to have much effect because they know it's unlikely
          they will get a second piece of gear anyway.
          To over come inertia, I think the owner tests will work best in response to
          specific item report calls. As far as biased reports by owners, nothing can
          stop that. If you've noticed, no one has trashed a piece of gear they
          received free either. I recognize the ego investment problem with owner
          reviews but I don't think it is of any greater concern than any other
          physiological aspect of any review process.
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BackpackGearTest : the most comprehensive
          interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.
        • GearTester
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BackpackGearTest : the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet. ... From:
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 1, 2001
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            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BackpackGearTest : the most comprehensive
            interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <richard.dreher@...>
            To: <BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 10:54 AM
            Subject: [BackpackGearTest] Re: Report compliance


            > Jerry,
            >
            > Issue #1 is a toughie, I'm not sure that a pay-as-you-don't-go system
            > accomplishes your goal. If someone has to pay for their piece of gear
            > because they don't file a report, we still haven't achieved 100%
            > compliance, have we?. An additional headache for you is deciding when
            > to pull the payment trigger. Do you do it within a day, a week, a
            > month of the deadline? What if they're a day late with their report--
            > do they get a 50% refund? Would it have any impact with a $12 item
            > test or only with big ticket items? One thing I'm certain you don't
            > want is to attach a dollar value to a given test--you want the
            > quality to be the same for a $10 flashlight as it is for a $150
            > sleeping bag.
            >
            > In addition, do you want potential legal entanglements resulting from
            > gathering and holding CC#s?, not to mention the inevitable eruptions
            > that will happen when you pull that trigger?
            >
            > It might all work, but I figure you need a devil's advocate or two at
            > work here :-)

            ### Pretty much "No" to all of the above....except the good report on all
            items one.... I want compliance with the least amount of hassle.

            > I like idea #2 very much: formalized owner tests. I write ad hoc gear
            > reviews all the time on various web boards that could easily be
            > expanded for use here. (But, will the manufacturer care/pay any
            > attention?)

            ### These reviews are pretty much just for us. Although, you never know.

            > Idea #2 leads back to #1: What if we were to require (1,2,3...?)
            > owner test reviews as a qualifier for becoming a new-gear tester?
            > I'll bet dollars to Lil' Debbies that this process would filter out
            > most of your deadbeats.

            ### Great minds think alike. That's what I was just thinking about. It is no
            more or less fool-proof than any other idea but it sure would encourage
            owner tests and prove they could write.

            Jerry
          • Sonjia Leyva
            Regarding requiring a credit card to insure compliance with test reports: I like the idea in theory, but I m with some of the others who have expressed
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 1, 2001
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              Regarding requiring a credit card to insure compliance with test
              reports: I like the idea in theory, but I'm with some of the others
              who have expressed concerns about putting it into practice.
              1. Using a service like PayPal is a good idea, provided that a
              tester would be able to have a choice in how they like to pay. Some
              people don't like to use their credit card on-line. I hate to write
              checks (check writing = checkbook balancing = huge headaches = a bad
              thing!) but others might prefer to send in their payment as a check
              via the good ol' USPS.

              2. When, and who, decides non-compliance? You would need to
              clearly state what the criteria is for when a tester is in non-
              compliance and their payment will be processed. Example, a tester is
              in non-compliance when they have failed to submit reports AND the
              tester has not contacted you/the moderater/someone in the group to
              inform them of extenuating circumstances AND a resonable attempt has
              been made to contact them to find out what's going on (to cover your
              butt, do it via registered mail).

              I do like the idea of owner reports. Most of us have gear that we
              have used for years and can give a much more detailed report over a
              longer span of time. Or, we've purchased gear and have absolutely
              hated it. This, also, can be valuable to the group. I also like the
              idea of some of us who live nearby to get together and do a group
              trial.

              Sonjia, who put in WAY more than 2 cents' worth of ponderings.
            • Don Johnston
              ... Sounds good to me. I think we have done some of this in an informal way. I think these should be structured like regular tests and standards for reporting
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 1, 2001
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                >I'm also planning to start a owner review program. I (we) would pick and item and call
                >for owners to give us reports on the selected item. This would allow a much longer
                >experience report than we can now get. We could build a tremendous database of gear
                >reports. What do you think?
                >Jerry

                Sounds good to me. I think we have done some of this in an informal way.
                I think these should be structured like regular tests and standards for
                reporting should be just as high as with regular tests. Once cold
                weather returns I expect to do an update on the PHD gear I reported on.
                I will have a report on a Nunatak Arc Alpinist at some point also.

                Photon
              • GearTester
                All reports must be up to our standards. I may have to come up with an item monitor to periodically check the folder and read new reports. If they feel the
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 1, 2001
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                  All reports must be up to our standards. I may have to come up with an item
                  monitor to periodically check the folder and read new reports. If they feel
                  the report is substandard they can report it to me for review and possible
                  removal.
                  Jerry
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BackpackGearTest : the most comprehensive
                  interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Don Johnston" <d.h.j@...>
                  To: <BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 4:50 PM
                  Subject: [BackpackGearTest] Re: Report compliance


                  > Sounds good to me. I think we have done some of this in an informal way.
                  > I think these should be structured like regular tests and standards for
                  > reporting should be just as high as with regular tests. Once cold
                  > weather returns I expect to do an update on the PHD gear I reported on.
                  > I will have a report on a Nunatak Arc Alpinist at some point also.
                  >
                  > Photon
                • Michael Wheiler
                  Jerry: Seems like we ve been discussing ways to insure compliance for a long time. It is too bad it has gotten to the point that we are considering the credit
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 1, 2001
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                    Jerry:
                     
                    Seems like we've been discussing ways to insure compliance for a long time.  It is too bad it has gotten to the point that we are considering the credit card requirement.  But to steal a line from the movie "Twins,":  "money talks and bs walks."
                     
                    I like the idea of calling for owner reporting on select equipment a lot.  From reading the comments and applications for testing, we have a very strong user data base from which to draw information about equipment use that ought to be utilized.
                     
                    Mike
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 5:25 PM
                    Subject: [BackpackGearTest] Report compliance

                    We still need to solve this problem. I'm currently considering requiring a credit card number and signed agreement be provided the manufacturer by each tester before the tester can receive the test item. The agreement would state that the tester authorizes the manufacturer to charge them full price for the test item if the manufacturer is notified by the list moderator that the tester is in report default.
                    It looks like, if it proves successful, that all our applicable reports will be linked through BackpackingLight.com as was done this week. This opens us up to much larger exposure and scrutiny. We have to get to the point that we have 100% compliance....one way or the other. I'm trying to not have a situation where only certain listers are chosen to report.
                    I'd love to hear other plans for curing this problem.
                    I'm also planning to start a owner review program. I (we) would pick and item and call for owners to give us reports on the selected item. This would allow a much longer experience report than we can now get. We could build a tremendous database of gear reports. What do you think?
                    Jerry
                     
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                  • Ben Toombs
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 1, 2001
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                      <It might also be of value to request some reviews of the custom or semi-custom
                      products. buyers may be leery of because they can't see them in a
                      store.>
                       
                      Excellent point! I am interested in Wanderlust's 2 for 2 but am concerned about condensation & interior space. I would like to here some good reviews of this tent.
                    • Ben Toombs
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 1, 2001
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                        <Idea #2 leads back to #1: What if we were to require (1,2,3...?)
                        owner test reviews as a qualifier for becoming a new-gear tester?
                        I'll bet dollars to Lil' Debbies that this process would filter out
                        most of your deadbeats.>
                         
                        Another good idea! This group is the best!

                      • GearTester
                        I m willing to try the owner report requirement as a prerequisite for new gear testing. I m going to require that potential new gear reviewers must include the
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 1, 2001
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                          I'm willing to try the owner report requirement as a prerequisite for new gear testing. I'm going to require that potential new gear reviewers must include the links to two owner reports that have been uploaded to BGT. I'll develop the requirements file and post it tomorrow....I hope. This will accomplish two goals: build our gear review database and try a less painless method of compliance.
                          Jerry
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BackpackGearTest : the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 8:26 PM
                          Subject: Re: [BackpackGearTest] Report compliance

                          Jerry:
                           
                          Seems like we've been discussing ways to insure compliance for a long time.  It is too bad it has gotten to the point that we are considering the credit card requirement.  But to steal a line from the movie "Twins,":  "money talks and bs walks."
                           
                          I like the idea of calling for owner reporting on select equipment a lot.  From reading the comments and applications for testing, we have a very strong user data base from which to draw information about equipment use that ought to be utilized.
                           
                          Mike
                        • chaynes@javanet.com
                          I wonder if you would consider excludeing the use of previous tester reportsas meeting the prerequisites for a new gear tester and limiting the requirement to
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 2, 2001
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                            I wonder if you would consider excludeing the use of previous tester
                            reportsas meeting the prerequisites for a new gear tester and
                            limiting the requirement to owner reports. The reason I ask this is
                            if tester reports are accepted as meeting the prerequisite, folks who
                            have already had an oppertunity to test have an unfare advantage.
                            There are already folks on the list who have had more than one
                            oppertunity to test gear while the majority have not had an
                            oppertunity to participate as testers.

                            Also I wonder if it would be possible to reword the tester
                            requirements such that the tester by accepting gear has entered into
                            a contract with the list as well as the manufacturer to provide the
                            required report, an should the requirements not be meet, the list
                            could bill the noncompliant tester for replacement gear for anouther
                            tester, and should they not pay, perhaps at least try to get there
                            nonpayment on there credit report.


                            --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., "GearTester" <geartester@q...> wrote:
                            > I'm willing to try the owner report requirement as a prerequisite
                            for new gear testing. I'm going to require that potential new gear
                            reviewers must include the links to two owner reports that have been
                            uploaded to BGT. I'll develop the requirements file and post it
                            tomorrow....I hope. This will accomplish two goals: build our gear
                            review database and try a less painless method of compliance.
                            > Jerry
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BackpackGearTest : the most
                            comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Michael Wheiler
                            > To: BackpackGearTest@y...
                            > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 8:26 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [BackpackGearTest] Report compliance
                            >
                            >
                            > Jerry:
                            >
                          • David Harris
                            FWIW, I think requiring owner reports as a prerequisite for testing is a terrific approach. I hate the notion that we need to require credit cards for this
                            Message 13 of 24 , Aug 3, 2001
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                              FWIW, I think requiring owner reports as a prerequisite for testing
                              is a terrific approach. I hate the notion that we need to require
                              credit cards for this process. That would, as has been mentioned
                              earlier, leave some potential testers out over concerns about sending
                              credit card info out into cyberspace. More than that, whether pay
                              pal or credit cards, it would add tremendously to the work (unpaid)
                              that Jerry has to put into this venture, and I rather doubt (hope I'm
                              not speaking out of turn Jerry) that that's what he got into this
                              idea for in the 1st place.

                              Let's all hope that the use of owner reviews, and possibly starting
                              testers out with smaller items, will solve our problem.

                              On a side note, I think the ideas of testing get together sessions
                              and side-by-side comparison testing are great, though I think they
                              would tend to focus gear on a more limited number of testers.

                              David Harris

                              --- In BackpackGearTest@y..., "GearTester" <geartester@q...> wrote:
                              > I'm willing to try the owner report requirement as a prerequisite
                              for new gear testing. I'm going to require that potential new gear
                              reviewers must include the links to two owner reports that have been
                              uploaded to BGT. I'll develop the requirements file and post it
                              tomorrow....I hope. This will accomplish two goals: build our gear
                              review database and try a less painless method of compliance.
                              > Jerry
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BackpackGearTest : the most
                              comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.
                            • Dave Hicks
                              I like the idea of a credit card number and a signed agreement, but with some restraint in what is considered delinquent, or otherwise results in a charge to
                              Message 14 of 24 , Aug 5, 2001
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                                I like the idea of a credit card number and a signed agreement, but with
                                some restraint in what is considered delinquent, or otherwise results in a
                                charge to the account.

                                For example, one of the complications is problem of "matching the items
                                arrival date with the testers' calendar or travel/hiking schedule." We
                                seldom know when the item will arrive, when we apply to test it. For
                                example, my Hike-N-Light arrived while I was on a trip, so I was
                                "delinquent" -- albeit I had notified Jerry that I was going to be out. To
                                his, and your, credit you just list my report as "delinquent" rather than
                                announce to the world that my house was an easy target for the next two
                                weeks. So, IMHO, we need some clear understanding of how to deal with
                                report slippages while maintaining some acceptable level of confidentiality.

                                dave

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Bob <farmerbob48@...>
                                To: <BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 7:47 PM
                                Subject: Re: [BackpackGearTest] Report compliance


                                > I think that requiring a credit card number and a signed agreement is an
                                > excellent idea. I have monitored two tests so far and both tests there
                                has
                                > been a few members that haven't finished all their reports. I think that
                                > stricter guide lines is needed to weed out the testers that just want free
                                > products.
                                >
                                > I also think that starting an owner review program is a good idea. I know
                                > that I have a lot of gear and a few friends of mine that are members have
                                > more gear than I do. This would be a good program to do during times when
                                > there's no new products being tested and it would give more information
                                > about products already out there so people could read and get a better
                                idea
                                > about a product that they might buy. I think a few products to start this
                                > owner review program could be the MSR Whisperlite International stove,
                                > Grivel 10 point crampons, Vasque GT Clarion Impact boots, and the Pur
                                Water
                                > Filters.
                                >
                                > Farmer Bob
                                >
                                >
                                > >From: "GearTester" <geartester@...>
                                > >Reply-To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                                > >To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                                > >Subject: [BackpackGearTest] Report compliance
                                > >Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 17:25:15 -0600
                                > >
                                > >We still need to solve this problem. I'm currently considering requiring
                                a
                                > >credit card number and signed agreement be provided the manufacturer by
                                > >each tester before the tester can receive the test item. The agreement
                                > >would state that the tester authorizes the manufacturer to charge them
                                full
                                > >price for the test item if the manufacturer is notified by the list
                                > >moderator that the tester is in report default.
                                > >It looks like, if it proves successful, that all our applicable reports
                                > >will be linked through BackpackingLight.com as was done this week. This
                                > >opens us up to much larger exposure and scrutiny. We have to get to the
                                > >point that we have 100% compliance....one way or the other. I'm trying to
                                > >not have a situation where only certain listers are chosen to report.
                                > >I'd love to hear other plans for curing this problem.
                                > >I'm also planning to start a owner review program. I (we) would pick and
                                > >item and call for owners to give us reports on the selected item. This
                                > >would allow a much longer experience report than we can now get. We could
                                > >build a tremendous database of gear reports. What do you think?
                                > >Jerry
                                > >
                                > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BackpackGearTest : the most comprehensive
                                > >interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.
                                >
                                >
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