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Zippo lighter test posibility

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  • J Cornelius
    Here is the response from an email I sent to Zippo regarding their new hiker lighter Jodi Thanks for your suggestion. As Greg has said we are currently working
    Message 1 of 30 , Jun 13, 2003
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      Here is the response from an email I sent to Zippo regarding their new
      hiker lighter

      Jodi
      Thanks for your suggestion. As Greg has said we are currently working
      on a design for a utility lighter with back packers and hikers in mind.
      When we get a little further along with the concept work we may take you
      up on your offer. Manager of New Product Development Ron Meister

      Hopefully we'll hear from them more. What I am now going to do is take
      suggestions (PLEASE!!!) that I can give to them to help them with their
      development - this way we'll KNOW they have the hiker/backpacker in mind
      when they make this lighter. I already have the suggestion of being
      able to use it above 10,000 feet and possibly a "directional" flame
      idea. Anything else??

      Jodi

      Abnormality is THE normality at this locality
    • Shane
      ... A waterproof case would be nice... Truth be told, I haven t had any trouble with my regular Zippo while on the trail, so long as it doesn t get wet. Shane
      Message 2 of 30 , Jun 13, 2003
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        > I already have the suggestion of being able to use
        > it above 10,000 feet and possibly a "directional"
        > flame idea. Anything else??

        A waterproof case would be nice...

        Truth be told, I haven't had any trouble with my regular Zippo while on the
        trail, so long as it doesn't get wet.

        Shane
      • J Cornelius
        It s not really a matter of trouble it s more of a matter of lightweight/design. Another thought I had while thinking on this was would it be best if it was
        Message 3 of 30 , Jun 13, 2003
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          It's not really a matter of "trouble" it's more of a matter of
          lightweight/design. Another thought I had while thinking on this was
          would it be best if it was lighter fluid or butane ran??

          Abnormality is THE normality at this locality

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Shane [mailto:shane@...]
          Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 4:51 PM
          To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [BackpackGearTest] Zippo lighter test possibility

          > I already have the suggestion of being able to use
          > it above 10,000 feet and possibly a "directional"
          > flame idea. Anything else??

          A waterproof case would be nice...

          Truth be told, I haven't had any trouble with my regular Zippo while on
          the
          trail, so long as it doesn't get wet.

          Shane





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        • Shane
          ... I dislike butane lighters... Regular naphtha lighters have been much more durable and reliable for me. Shane
          Message 4 of 30 , Jun 13, 2003
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            > Another thought I had while thinking on this was
            > would it be best if it was lighter fluid or butane
            > ran??

            I dislike butane lighters... Regular naphtha lighters have been much more
            durable and reliable for me.

            Shane
          • Chief Moderator
            Butane...and make it clear so we can see how much fuel remains. Jerry http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most
            Message 5 of 30 , Jun 13, 2003
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              Butane...and make it clear so we can see how much fuel remains.
              Jerry


              <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/> http://www.BackpackGearTest.org :
              the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: J Cornelius [mailto:dojers@...]
              Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 3:09 PM
              To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [BackpackGearTest] Zippo lighter test possibility


              It's not really a matter of "trouble" it's more of a matter of
              lightweight/design. Another thought I had while thinking on this was
              would it be best if it was lighter fluid or butane ran??

              Abnormality is THE normality at this locality

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Shane [mailto:shane@...]
              Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 4:51 PM
              To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [BackpackGearTest] Zippo lighter test possibility

              > I already have the suggestion of being able to use
              > it above 10,000 feet and possibly a "directional"
              > flame idea. Anything else??

              A waterproof case would be nice...

              Truth be told, I haven't had any trouble with my regular Zippo while on
              the
              trail, so long as it doesn't get wet.

              Shane





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            • Chief Moderator
              You ve just not been in a hurry and over filled one yet...lol. I hate those silver dollar or better sized chemical burns on my thigh....just about pocket
              Message 6 of 30 , Jun 13, 2003
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                You've just not been in a hurry and over filled one yet...lol. I hate
                those silver dollar or better sized chemical burns on my thigh....just
                about pocket level. I carried a Zippo for most of the 30 years I smoked.

                Jerry


                <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/> http://www.BackpackGearTest.org :
                the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Shane [mailto:shane@...]
                Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 3:15 PM
                To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [BackpackGearTest] Zippo lighter test possibility


                > Another thought I had while thinking on this was
                > would it be best if it was lighter fluid or butane
                > ran??

                I dislike butane lighters... Regular naphtha lighters have been much
                more
                durable and reliable for me.

                Shane



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              • Cora
                Hi all- I hope everyone is having a great day. I would suggest paying close attention to how the lighter works in the cold. My butane lighters have not worked
                Message 7 of 30 , Jun 13, 2003
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                  Hi all-

                  I hope everyone is having a great day.

                  I would suggest paying close attention to how the
                  lighter works in the cold. My butane lighters have
                  not worked at all when below 0'F (-18'C), and some
                  liquid fuel lighters have parts that depend on not
                  being water-frozen in order to work properly.

                  It has always seemed funny to me that the $0.99 Bic
                  lighter with the safety guard ripped off performs
                  better in cold, wet, and harsh environments than any
                  $20+ lighter I've used. All of which were supposedly
                  specially designed for the purpuse...but failed, at
                  least partially because they forgot about really cold
                  environment use.

                  --Cora



                  --- J Cornelius <dojers@...> wrote:
                  > Here is the response from an email I sent to Zippo
                  > regarding their new
                  > hiker lighter
                  >
                  > Jodi
                  > Thanks for your suggestion. As Greg has said we are
                  > currently working
                  > on a design for a utility lighter with back packers
                  > and hikers in mind.
                  > When we get a little further along with the concept
                  > work we may take you
                  > up on your offer. Manager of New Product Development
                  > Ron Meister
                  >
                  > Hopefully we'll hear from them more. What I am now
                  > going to do is take
                  > suggestions (PLEASE!!!) that I can give to them to
                  > help them with their
                  > development - this way we'll KNOW they have the
                  > hiker/backpacker in mind
                  > when they make this lighter. I already have the
                  > suggestion of being
                  > able to use it above 10,000 feet and possibly a
                  > "directional" flame
                  > idea. Anything else??
                  >
                  > Jodi
                  >
                  > Abnormality is THE normality at this locality
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


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                • redbike64
                  Jodi, If you pull this off you ll have a permanent spot on my personal hero list :-) Good question on the fuel. *If* they make it to use regular old lighter
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jun 13, 2003
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                    Jodi,

                    If you pull this off you'll have a permanent spot on my personal hero
                    list :-)

                    Good question on the fuel. *If* they make it to use regular old
                    lighter fluid, they should consider supplying it with a small, light
                    (naturally) "spare tank" for refilling it in the field, otherwise
                    there will always be that lack of confidence in how long it will work
                    before running out of fluid. My suspicion is that the chemical
                    characteristics of lighter fluid will render it unsuitable to the
                    task.

                    Another fuel thought--bear with me here--is to design it to use
                    isopro cartridge stove fuel. A little connector hose running from the
                    standard threaded Lindahl(sp?) cartridge valve to the lighter would
                    make it field-refillable from a common backcountry fuel source. I've
                    never understood why gas lighters are limited to crappy old butane.

                    Alcohol stove buffs will still be SOL with either, however, (unless
                    the photon naphtha stove is on the way).

                    Other design suggestions:

                    --A long, slender shape to enable it to reach stove burners through
                    windscreens, or to light small lanterns.
                    --Eliminate "BIC knuckles", those singed fingers you get lighting
                    stoves using lighters that force you to keep your hand next to the
                    flame. If there's to be a pushbutton valve, put it at the other end
                    from the flame, otherwise give it a continuous "on" valve.

                    And an MPEG player. (Kidding on that last one :-)

                    --Rick

                    --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "J Cornelius" <dojers@c...>
                    wrote:
                    > It's not really a matter of "trouble" it's more of a matter of
                    > lightweight/design. Another thought I had while thinking on this
                    was
                    > would it be best if it was lighter fluid or butane ran??
                    >
                    > Abnormality is THE normality at this locality
                  • Clifford R. Haynes
                    The best lighter I have ever had even for use in the woods, was liquid fuel not gas. Can t remember who made it, but the bottom 2/3 was a clear fuel tank, and
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jun 13, 2003
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                      The best lighter I have ever had even for use in the woods, was liquid fuel not gas. Can't remember who made it, but the bottom 2/3 was a clear fuel tank, and it had a button to alow fuel to resoak the cotton when the lighter was empty and had waterproof flint storage. Worked at any altitude within reason, and if it got totally water soaked all I had to do was shake the water out, put in a new flint , pussh the button to refill the lighter, and give it a flick "Fire".
                      Rocky

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Clifford R. Haynes
                      ... From: redbike64 Good question on the fuel. *If* they make it to use regular old lighter fluid, they should consider supplying it with a small, light
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jun 13, 2003
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                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: redbike64

                        Good question on the fuel. *If* they make it to use regular old
                        lighter fluid, they should consider supplying it with a small, light
                        (naturally) "spare tank" for refilling it in the field, otherwise
                        there will always be that lack of confidence in how long it will work
                        before running out of fluid. My suspicion is that the chemical
                        characteristics of lighter fluid will render it unsuitable to the
                        task.

                        # They made a lighter with a spair fuel tank built right into the lighter about 30 years ago. They worked really well.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Chief Moderator
                        Nooo......I m so cool I don t carry *anything*, except pistols, on my belt. I just ripped up too many pairs of pants and jeans on car doors getting out. Jerry
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jun 13, 2003
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                          Nooo......I'm so cool I don't carry *anything*, except pistols, on my
                          belt. I just ripped up too many pairs of pants and jeans on car doors
                          getting out.
                          Jerry


                          <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/> http://www.BackpackGearTest.org :
                          the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Shane Steinkamp [mailto:shane@...]
                          Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 10:15 PM
                          To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [BackpackGearTest] Zippo lighter test possibility


                          > You've just not been in a hurry and over filled one
                          > yet...lol. I hate those silver dollar or better sized
                          > chemical burns on my thigh....just about pocket level. I
                          > carried a Zippo for most of the 30 years I smoked.

                          ...and you weren't cool enough to carry it in a clip case on your
                          belt...
                          ;)

                          Shane



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                        • Shane Steinkamp
                          ... ...and you weren t cool enough to carry it in a clip case on your belt... ;) Shane
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jun 13, 2003
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                            > You've just not been in a hurry and over filled one
                            > yet...lol. I hate those silver dollar or better sized
                            > chemical burns on my thigh....just about pocket level. I
                            > carried a Zippo for most of the 30 years I smoked.

                            ...and you weren't cool enough to carry it in a clip case on your belt...
                            ;)

                            Shane
                          • Shane Steinkamp
                            ... Well, in that case I won t argue with you about it. ;) ... All I can say is that my friends call me Batman. I tend to destroy a lot of car seats... Shane
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jun 13, 2003
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                              > Nooo......I'm so cool I don't carry *anything*, except
                              > pistols, on my belt.

                              Well, in that case I won't argue with you about it. ;)

                              > I just ripped up too many pairs of pants and jeans on car
                              > doors getting out.

                              All I can say is that my friends call me Batman. I tend to destroy a lot of
                              car seats...

                              Shane
                            • karinclaus
                              Jodi: I switched from matches to a lighter in April of 2002. At that time, I was almost clueless in how you start a lighter. Since I switched, I ve spent six
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jun 14, 2003
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                                Jodi:
                                I switched from matches to a lighter in April of 2002.
                                At that time, I was almost clueless in how you start a lighter.

                                Since I switched, I've spent six months in the woods daily using a
                                lighter. What I look for .. is a lighter that is very easy to
                                light. At the end of a day, I'm usually very tired, wet, and
                                hungry .. Some lighters just take too much force to light. In the
                                woods, if I can get that lighter going.. then I know dinner is just
                                around the corner. If I can't get the lighter started.. then I get
                                really cranky!

                                I don't know the technical terms for lighter parts - but I want
                                that "wheely-thingy" that you pull your thumb across to rotate
                                easily.

                                I try to buy lighters that aren't packaged.. so I can "try before I
                                buy". (That means I don't like the 3-packs, because I can't rip the
                                package open and try them).

                                Thanks,

                                Karin
                              • rcaffin
                                ... Woo - product liability nightmare here! That s exactly why butane lighters are NOT (in principle) refillable. As to why they contain only butane - same
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jun 14, 2003
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                                  Richard Dreher wrote:

                                  > Another fuel thought--bear with me here--is to design it to use
                                  > isopro cartridge stove fuel. A little connector hose running from
                                  > the standard threaded Lindahl(sp?) cartridge valve to the lighter
                                  > would make it field-refillable from a common backcountry fuel
                                  > source. I've never understood why gas lighters are limited to
                                  > crappy old butane.
                                  Woo - product liability nightmare here! That's exactly why butane
                                  lighters are NOT (in principle) refillable.
                                  As to why they contain only butane - same reason. Butane boils
                                  (vaporises) at -0.5C, while propane boils at -40C. The butane gets
                                  warm enough in the average smoker's pocket: propane would be at too
                                  high a pressure. Propane would be a flame thrower. Yes, that may be
                                  what *you* want, but in lawsuit-crazy America, no way.
                                  (Footnote on this: you can refill a BIC lighter if you look very
                                  carefully. But beware of the dangers, and what about the limited life
                                  flint? At 99c, who bothers?)

                                  > --A long, slender shape to enable it to reach stove burners through
                                  > windscreens, or to light small lanterns.
                                  > --Eliminate "BIC knuckles", those singed fingers you get lighting
                                  > stoves using lighters that force you to keep your hand next to the
                                  > flame.
                                  Look again. Most of those radiation shields (they are NOT really
                                  windshields) have a hole somewhere which allows you to put the
                                  lighter under the shield and poke the flame up through the hole.
                                  Well, mine do. Pracyice lighting the stove with a large pot already
                                  on top: it will make you do it the right way.

                                  > otherwise give it a continuous "on" valve.
                                  Product liability again.

                                  Sorry about the cynicism
                                  Cheers
                                  Roger Caffin
                                • redbike64
                                  If I might contraire your contraire, there are dozens upon dozens of refillable butane lighters, and refillables preceeded the more common disposables by a
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jun 15, 2003
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                                    If I might contraire your contraire, there are dozens upon dozens of
                                    refillable butane lighters, and refillables preceeded the more
                                    common disposables by a decade or two. I own a couple myself.

                                    I'm *not* suggesting a propane lighter, I'm suggesting one that runs
                                    on isopro cartridge fuel. Propane is a small part of the fuel mix,
                                    and I think the major fraction is isobutane. In any case, if the
                                    vapor pressure can be handled by a thin-walled steel or aluminum
                                    canister it can certainly be handled by a manly Zippo. The
                                    cartridges don't burst into fireballs topped with a stove burner and
                                    pot, so too a lighter is similarly unlikely to burst from pocket
                                    heat or being left in the sun.

                                    There's at least one backcountry product that uses this model
                                    already, the Coleman Exponent lantern, which fills its self-
                                    contained tank from one of the familar Max cartridges. I can't think
                                    of a reason why a lighter couldn't be similarly filled, can you?

                                    In rethinking the cartridge-to-lighter connection, I suspect that a
                                    metal, screw-on one-way valve might do the trick more simply than a
                                    connecting hose. Butane lighter supplies used to come with about a
                                    dozen adapters to fit various lighters, but now seem to do with a
                                    singel, slender plasic connector.

                                    --Rick

                                    --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "rcaffin" <r.caffin@a...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Woo - product liability nightmare here! That's exactly why butane
                                    > lighters are NOT (in principle) refillable.
                                    > As to why they contain only butane - same reason. Butane boils
                                    > (vaporises) at -0.5C, while propane boils at -40C. The butane gets
                                    > warm enough in the average smoker's pocket: propane would be at
                                    too
                                    > high a pressure. Propane would be a flame thrower. Yes, that may
                                    be
                                    > what *you* want, but in lawsuit-crazy America, no way.
                                    > (Footnote on this: you can refill a BIC lighter if you look very
                                    > carefully. But beware of the dangers, and what about the limited
                                    life
                                    > flint? At 99c, who bothers?)
                                    >
                                    > > --A long, slender shape to enable it to reach stove burners
                                    through
                                    > > windscreens, or to light small lanterns.
                                    > > --Eliminate "BIC knuckles", those singed fingers you get
                                    lighting
                                    > > stoves using lighters that force you to keep your hand next to
                                    the
                                    > > flame.
                                    > Look again. Most of those radiation shields (they are NOT really
                                    > windshields) have a hole somewhere which allows you to put the
                                    > lighter under the shield and poke the flame up through the hole.
                                    > Well, mine do. Pracyice lighting the stove with a large pot
                                    already
                                    > on top: it will make you do it the right way.
                                    >
                                    > > otherwise give it a continuous "on" valve.
                                    > Product liability again.
                                    >
                                    > Sorry about the cynicism
                                    > Cheers
                                    > Roger Caffin
                                  • rcaffin
                                    ... Damn - I KNEW I had not expressed myself clearly enough. I have no problem with the idea of the refillable butane lighter. It is the idea of putting
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jun 16, 2003
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                                      Richard Dreher wrote:

                                      > If I might contraire your contraire, there are dozens upon dozens
                                      > of refillable butane lighters, and refillables preceeded the more
                                      > common disposables by a decade or two.
                                      Damn - I KNEW I had not expressed myself clearly enough.
                                      I have no problem with the idea of the refillable butane lighter. It
                                      is the idea of putting propane in that worries me.

                                      By way of example, look at three different systems: a Bic lighter, a
                                      screw-thread or epigas stove canister, and a workshop propane gas
                                      bottle.
                                      The Bic lighter uses straight butane, which boils at -0.5C. Not too
                                      much problem handling this stuff for a refill. When you start the gas
                                      transfer there is some loss, which chills the rest down to sub-zero
                                      very quickly.
                                      The screw-thread cartridge has maybe 15-20% propane in it. The rest
                                      is Butane. The precautions for sealing, and the flexible hoses, are
                                      much stronger.
                                      The propane gas bottle uses a really heavy hose and solid brass NPT
                                      fittings. That's because the propane is usually at a higher pressure
                                      and more dangerous: it boils at -40C.

                                      > I'm suggesting one that runs on isopro cartridge fuel. Propane is
                                      > a small part of the fuel mix, and I think the major fraction is
                                      > isobutane.
                                      In general the mix is ~20% propane and 80% butane. Isobutane boils
                                      at -20 (I think) and is only found afaik in the MSR cartridge, where
                                      it is 100%.

                                      > There's at least one backcountry product that uses this model
                                      > already, the Coleman Exponent lantern, which fills its self-
                                      > contained tank from one of the familar Max cartridges. I can't
                                      > think of a reason why a lighter couldn't be similarly filled,
                                      > can you?
                                      I am not familiar with the Exponent Lantern. But using a Max
                                      cartridge is a little different from using a screw-thread cartridge.
                                      The Max delivers liquid; the screw-thread cartridge delivers gas. In
                                      this context, note that you have to invert the gas canister when
                                      refilling a lighter. That's how you get liquid into the lighter.

                                      If they have got a fitting which allows the use of the Max cartridge
                                      as a fuel supply, then you are half way there. But I suspect that the
                                      connection to the lantern is probably also a screwed metal fitting.
                                      Getting a secure connection to a small, variable size, removable
                                      plastic lighter would be the real problem. Maybe one could? Dunno.
                                      Risky in my book.

                                      Cheers
                                      Roger Caffin
                                    • dawnhark
                                      ... I would like to have one that screws onto an Esbit tab. Dawn
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jun 16, 2003
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                                        --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "rcaffin" <r.caffin@a...> wrote:

                                        > If they have got a fitting which allows the use of the Max cartridge
                                        > as a fuel supply, then you are half way there.


                                        I would like to have one that screws onto an Esbit tab.

                                        Dawn
                                      • Chief Moderator
                                        LOL....yeah, me too. Much safer.....but harder to light... ;o) Jerry http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jun 16, 2003
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                                          LOL....yeah, me too. Much safer.....but harder to light... ;o)
                                          Jerry


                                          <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/> http://www.BackpackGearTest.org :
                                          the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: dawnhark [mailto:dawnhark@...]
                                          Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 12:16 PM
                                          To: BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [BackpackGearTest] Re: Zippo lighter test possibility


                                          --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "rcaffin" <r.caffin@a...>
                                          wrote:

                                          > If they have got a fitting which allows the use of the Max cartridge
                                          > as a fuel supply, then you are half way there.


                                          I would like to have one that screws onto an Esbit tab.

                                          Dawn



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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Andy Mytys
                                          ... It there s a button to push for the flame, a safety switch would be a MUST. I ve got a butane lighter w/o this and I m so paranoid to carry it anywhere
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jun 16, 2003
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                                            --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "redbike64"
                                            >
                                            > If there's to be a pushbutton valve, put it at the other end
                                            > from the flame, otherwise give it a continuous "on" valve.
                                            >

                                            It there's a button to push for the flame, a safety switch would be a
                                            MUST. I've got a butane lighter w/o this and I'm so paranoid to
                                            carry it anywhere but in my cookpot as a result.

                                            Also, can't fly with it in carry-on luggage because of this feature.
                                          • Cora
                                            ...and boy, does it look spiffy! Initial report pending soon -- have a super day. --Cora __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jun 16, 2003
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                                              ...and boy, does it look spiffy!

                                              Initial report pending soon -- have a super day.

                                              --Cora

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                                            • Cora
                                              Hello all- My initial report for the HSSC Stream has been uploaded to Test Level 1 for your editing adventures. This is my very first initial report ever,
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jun 17, 2003
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                                                Hello all-

                                                My initial report for the HSSC Stream has been
                                                uploaded to Test > Level 1 for your editing
                                                adventures. This is my very first initial report
                                                ever, so any help and/or comments are welcome and
                                                appreciated.

                                                I thought it would be best to put it on BGT instead of
                                                in a mail message because it has three pictures and
                                                the text looked awful in a Yahoo mail. Please let me
                                                know if this is improper to do.

                                                Thank you,
                                                Cora

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                                              • David Anderson
                                                Hi Cora, Putting it up on BGT for editing is fine, but you still have to post it to the list. Dave ... -- David Anderson Moderator
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Jun 17, 2003
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                                                  Hi Cora,

                                                  Putting it up on BGT for editing is fine, but you still have to post it to
                                                  the list.

                                                  Dave

                                                  At 12:55 PM 6/17/2003 -0700, you wrote:
                                                  >Hello all-
                                                  >
                                                  >My initial report for the HSSC Stream has been
                                                  >uploaded to Test > Level 1 for your editing
                                                  >adventures. This is my very first initial report
                                                  >ever, so any help and/or comments are welcome and
                                                  >appreciated.
                                                  >
                                                  >I thought it would be best to put it on BGT instead of
                                                  >in a mail message because it has three pictures and
                                                  >the text looked awful in a Yahoo mail. Please let me
                                                  >know if this is improper to do.
                                                  >
                                                  >Thank you,
                                                  >Cora
                                                  >
                                                  >__________________________________
                                                  >Do you Yahoo!?
                                                  >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
                                                  >http://sbc.yahoo.com
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                  >BackpackGearTest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                                                  --
                                                  David Anderson
                                                  Moderator
                                                  http://www.BackpackGearTest.org
                                                • Cora
                                                  Oh, thank you for letting me know. I have included my text initial report here, without pictures. The one with pictures remains on BGT Test Level 1. ...
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Jun 17, 2003
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                                                    Oh, thank you for letting me know. I have included my
                                                    text initial report here, without pictures.
                                                    The one with pictures remains on BGT Test > Level 1.

                                                    ----

                                                    High Sierra Sport Company (HSSC) Stream Hydration Pack

                                                    Initial Report


                                                    -----------------------------------------------------

                                                    Reviewer Information

                                                    Name: Cora Hussey
                                                    Age: 23
                                                    Gender: Female
                                                    Height: 5'9" (175 cm)
                                                    Weight: 155 lbs (70 kg)
                                                    Email address: cahhmc "at" yahoo "dot" com
                                                    City, State, Country: Los Angeles, CA, USA
                                                    Date: June 16, 2003

                                                    Backpacking Background: I began backpacking six years
                                                    ago. I enjoy weekend and longer trips to the Sierras
                                                    and the nearby Angeles and San Bernadino Forests, but
                                                    I also travel to Washington, Colorado, and elsewhere.
                                                    I love backpacking in spring and winter snow more than
                                                    anything (especially on skis) but I am also very happy
                                                    scrambling off-trail in the Sierras or glacier-hiking
                                                    in the Cascades. My enjoyment of backpacking also
                                                    provides a basis for my additional pursuits in
                                                    climbing and mountaineering.


                                                    ---------------------------------------------------


                                                    Basic Product Information

                                                    Year of Manufacture: 2003
                                                    URL: http://www.highsierrasport.com/
                                                    Listed weight: None
                                                    Weight as delivered:
                                                    - Water bladder alone, with neoprene cover and lid:
                                                    6.2 oz (177 g)
                                                    - Removable pack cover: 2.5 oz (73 g)
                                                    - Pack, without pack cover or bladder: 39 oz (1096
                                                    g)
                                                    - Everything together (pack, as advertised) : 48 oz
                                                    (1346 g)
                                                    Listed capacity:
                                                    - 2 liter (64 fluid oz) bladder
                                                    - Pack capacity: unlisted
                                                    - Calculated capacity (from dimensions): 960 cubic
                                                    inches (15.7 liters)


                                                    --------------------------------------------------


                                                    Preliminary Information

                                                    Date of arrival: June 16, 2003 via UPS
                                                    Contents of package (contents were complete):
                                                    - Pack (with bladder and cover)
                                                    - Tags on pack, including bladder and pack care
                                                    instructions
                                                    - Catalog of other HSSC hydration packs
                                                    - A very nice letter offering support, thanks, and
                                                    more assistance
                                                    Condition upon arrival: Excellent


                                                    --------------------------------------------------


                                                    Product Description

                                                    + General:

                                                    The Stream pack is a very bells-and-whistles-oriented
                                                    hydration pack. It has a removable pack cover which
                                                    can be stowed in one of two bottom compartments in the
                                                    pack, a two-liter (64 fluid oz) water bladder with a
                                                    screw top fill entry and neoprene insulated hose, a
                                                    front netting piece used to store a helmet, and two
                                                    zippered openings.

                                                    The pack suspension consists of a stiff, concave
                                                    plastic back piece which bends away from the back of
                                                    the wearer, a foam strip which keeps the middle of the
                                                    pack away from the back, two mesh and very thin foam
                                                    shoulder straps, a sternum strap, and a hip strap
                                                    which is padded where the straps connect to the pack.
                                                    The back mesh portion of the suspension and its gap
                                                    between the back of the wearer and the pack is shown
                                                    in the image below. My helmet is strapped to it for a
                                                    width comparison. The taut mesh which rests on the
                                                    back of the wearer should be visible along my kitchen
                                                    floor on top of the shoulder straps, and the curvature
                                                    of the pack away from this mesh should be apparent.



                                                    The main top opening gives access to the hydration
                                                    bladder and the largest part of the additional room in
                                                    the pack. The front clamshell opening gives access to
                                                    flat, zippered, and compartmentalized pockets for
                                                    small-item organization. In the picture below, I have
                                                    outlined the two main zippers with green dashed lines,
                                                    circled a hook which keeps the bladder from sliding
                                                    down into its pocket in orange, and pointed to the
                                                    helmet strap device with a blue arrow.



                                                    + Dimensions:

                                                    The website states that the dimesions of the pack are
                                                    16" x 12" x 5" (50 cm x 30 cm x 13 cm), and I found
                                                    these dimensions to be accurate, although these
                                                    measurements apply to the flat portion of the
                                                    suspension, not the curved portion of the pack. The
                                                    maximum distance between the mesh in contact with the
                                                    back of the wearer and the actual back of the pack is
                                                    3.5" (9 cm).

                                                    The picture below shows the front of the pack with my
                                                    75 cm (30") ice axe, my climbing helmet, my
                                                    photography tripod (collapsed), a common type of water
                                                    bottle, and a yellow one foot (30 cm) ruler for scale.
                                                    These are all things I normally desire to carry on or
                                                    in a daypack.



                                                    + Details and Other Notes:

                                                    The hose on the bladder may be attached to either
                                                    shoulder strap via two opposing velcro pieces. The two
                                                    shoulder straps have tighteners which run over the top
                                                    of the shoulder to a ladder-lock buckle on the pack
                                                    frame. The pack cover does not come seam-sealed, but
                                                    it takes only about 10 minutes to do it by hand. The
                                                    pack has a clip on the top which prevents the bladder
                                                    from sliding down into its pocket as it empties. The
                                                    pack has two mesh pockets, one on either side, and
                                                    both (barely) fit a Nalgene bottle. Each side of the
                                                    pack also has one zig-zag compression strap which
                                                    attaches with a side-release buckle.



                                                    -----------------------------------------------


                                                    Field Testing Plan

                                                    Trip Details:

                                                    I intend to use the Stream on day hikes, urban
                                                    photographic pursuits, sculling and/or climbing
                                                    activities, and as a day pack on longer backpacking
                                                    trips. The day trips will be long hikes or trail runs,
                                                    geared for testing the Stream in high-mileage and
                                                    low-weight conditions. Urban photography will test the
                                                    ability of the Stream to carry bulky and unwieldly
                                                    gear, and to be positioned comfortably during long
                                                    periods of inactivity. Climbing and sculling will test
                                                    the Stream in wide ranges of motion. This will
                                                    hopefully test the freedom of the suspension system.
                                                    Use as a daypack on a longer trip will probably let
                                                    the Stream encounter bad weather, extended use with a
                                                    relatively large amount of gear for its size, and
                                                    demanding conditions of snow, rock, and general
                                                    thrashing.

                                                    Important Usage Points:

                                                    Over the next six months, I intend to test all
                                                    advertised attributes about both the pack and the
                                                    bladder along with the following:

                                                    Ease of use with pack portion during packing,
                                                    organizing, and adjusting
                                                    Ease of bladder filling, cleaning, and reassembling
                                                    Usefulness of each piece (bladder and pack) together
                                                    and separately
                                                    Odor, taste, pressure, abrasion, and leak resistance
                                                    of the bladder
                                                    Maximum weight comfort, ventilation, and adjustability
                                                    of pack suspension
                                                    Any changes, repairs, or needed maintenance over time


                                                    -----------------------------------------------------



                                                    Initial Tests and Personal Observations

                                                    + Concerns:


                                                    The ice axe loop:
                                                    The Stream has an orange loop sewn to the bottom. It
                                                    appears to be intended as an ice axe loop, but my ice
                                                    axe does not fit in it at all. It is too small. Too
                                                    bad, but perhaps I misunderstood the purpose. Oh well,
                                                    I will have to find a demanding trip which does not
                                                    require snow tools.

                                                    The suspension curvature:
                                                    The idea of curving the pack away from the back of the
                                                    user is a neat idea. It might improve ventilation, and
                                                    a daypack might not (in theory) have enough weight in
                                                    it to make the added distance from the back an issue.
                                                    However, the few times I have tried weighting the pack
                                                    with various items, the pack seemed to pull noticeable
                                                    away from my back. Time will tell.

                                                    The size/packability:
                                                    This is a small pack. Plain and simple. I usually
                                                    shove so much in my daypacks that I can hardly get
                                                    away with a daypack at all. The Stream will surely
                                                    test my limits on the more gear-intensive trips. In
                                                    addition, though small, the Stream is not collapsible
                                                    in any way. It will probably have to be strapped,
                                                    stiff as a board, to the outside of my larger packs
                                                    for some trips.

                                                    The ease of filling the bladder:
                                                    While filling at home, I found no graceful way to
                                                    close the lid on the bladder. Although I like the
                                                    screw-top entry, there is no better way that I have
                                                    found to close it when filled than to stick my fingers
                                                    in the water, pull the threads to a level position to
                                                    avoid spilling water, and easing the top on while
                                                    removing my fingers. Hopefully, I will find a better
                                                    way.

                                                    The exiting tube connection on the bladder:
                                                    At first, the bladder leaked at this connection, and I
                                                    was worried. However, it turned out that the
                                                    tube-bladder connection consists of a screw-type
                                                    connection, and the connection was not tightened. I
                                                    hope that this cannot become gradually unscrewed on
                                                    the trail, but I will pay attention to it in the
                                                    future.

                                                    + Confidences:


                                                    The ventilation:
                                                    I think that if I am ever hot with this pack on,
                                                    nothing will help me. My initial impression while
                                                    wearing it, ventilation-wise, is that I did not have a
                                                    pack on at all. Hopefully the mesh suspension will
                                                    keep up the good work.

                                                    Ease of setup and adjustment:
                                                    This pack is (so far) very easy to use, and the
                                                    details and options seem intuitive as to their uses
                                                    and setup. I encountered no problems adjusting the
                                                    various shoulder straps and tighteners, and the hip
                                                    strap has clips to adjust and stow the ends cleanly.
                                                    The bladder comes in and out of the pack easily, and I
                                                    felt familiar with using the pack in a matter of
                                                    minutes.

                                                    The attention to detail:
                                                    The first words out of my mouth when I opened the box
                                                    were: "Wow, this is the niftiest pack I have ever
                                                    seen!" And it remains that way. From the clip on the
                                                    top of the bladder pocket which prevents the bladder
                                                    from riding down and choking itself, to the elastic
                                                    and zippered inner pockets, to the side mesh pockets
                                                    and straps, even right down to the space-age
                                                    suspension itself, this pack is darn nifty. I am sure
                                                    that all of these details will make this pack a joy in
                                                    the long run.

                                                    The bladder opening:
                                                    Just what I have always wanted. A tight-fitting,
                                                    screw-top, hard-plastic entry to the water bladder
                                                    which looks like it would be the last thing to leak.
                                                    Plus, it connects to my water filters which are
                                                    designed for screwing on to Nalgene bottles.

                                                    The pack cover:
                                                    This part of the pack is probably the silliest looking
                                                    portion of the pack, (although I am prone to think all
                                                    pack covers look that way), however, I have had my
                                                    share of getting caught in a storm on a mountain and
                                                    wishing...no, begging the weather not to get my one
                                                    fleece top in my daypack wet before I can find a dry
                                                    spot to huddle for a while and put the fleece on. I am
                                                    looking forward to testing a pack cover on a daypack.

                                                    The helmet strap:
                                                    It probably adds an ounce or two to the pack, and
                                                    straps even my enormous climbing helmet down snugly. I
                                                    am impressed, plain and simple.

                                                    The neoprene tube cover and nipple lock:
                                                    Yet another part of this pack I am excited to test.
                                                    And, yet another apparent solution to yet another two
                                                    of my least favorite hydration pack idiosyncracies --
                                                    the frozen or leaky tube. The Stream seems to be full
                                                    of wonderful attempts to make the life of a hydration
                                                    bladder user easier.

                                                    More than I expected from looking at the website:
                                                    Always a plus. The website did not even begin to
                                                    convey how detailed and well-thought-out the Stream
                                                    really is. I hope that this report and my future
                                                    reports can give a better sense of the depth of design
                                                    in the Stream.


                                                    ----------------------------------------------

                                                    Many thanks to the High Sierra Sport Company and
                                                    BackpackGearTest for the opportunity to test the
                                                    Stream Pack!


                                                    __________________________________
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                                                  • Mark Stiebel
                                                    Hi Cora, Great in-depth and informative initial report. Makes me wish I applied for the test myself! I have made some editorial comments as marked below.
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Jun 17, 2003
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Hi Cora,

                                                      Great in-depth and informative initial report. Makes me wish I applied for
                                                      the test myself! I have made some editorial comments as marked below.
                                                      Please feel free to consider including them in your report.

                                                      > - Calculated capacity (from dimensions): 960 cubic
                                                      > inches (15.7 liters)

                                                      I am unsure of the accuracy of a calculated capacity of a pack, especially
                                                      if it has irregular curves (Unless, of course you're a real math wizz).
                                                      There has been previous discussion about pack volume on the this, and
                                                      someone more knowledgeable may be able to help you out.

                                                      > Preliminary Information
                                                      >
                                                      > Date of arrival: June 16, 2003 via UPS

                                                      I don't believe this information is relevent for the general public, as
                                                      this is generally not how the product is shipped, and is probably best
                                                      left off.

                                                      > a front netting piece used to store a helmet

                                                      Possibly:
                                                      a front netting piece possibly used to store a helmet

                                                      > The front clamshell opening gives access to
                                                      > flat, zippered, and compartmentalized pockets for
                                                      > small-item organization.

                                                      Do you mean that there are an assortment of these types of pockets, or
                                                      that all the pockets are flat, zippered and compartmentalized, etc? How
                                                      many pockets are there, and what sizes are they? Your description in this
                                                      report may suffice, but I would personally like some more information,
                                                      expecially about dimensions, in your field report.

                                                      > The picture below shows the front of the pack with my
                                                      > 75 cm (30") ice axe, my climbing helmet, my
                                                      > photography tripod (collapsed), a common type of water
                                                      > bottle, and a yellow one foot (30 cm) ruler for scale.
                                                      > These are all things I normally desire to carry on or
                                                      > in a daypack.

                                                      Do you usually carry a ruler in a daypack? Maybe:
                                                      ... water bottle. These are all things I normally desire to carry on or in
                                                      a daypack. A yellow one foot (30cm) ruler is also shown for scale.

                                                      > The pack has two mesh pockets, one on either side, and
                                                      > both (barely) fit a Nalgene bottle.

                                                      Maybe its just coz I'm in a different country, but what is a Nalgene
                                                      bottle, and how big is it?

                                                      > share of getting caught in a storm on a mountain and
                                                      > wishing...no, begging the weather not to get my one

                                                      Possibly want a space before the no:
                                                      wishing... no, begging the

                                                      -= Mark Stiebel
                                                      -= mark@...
                                                    • BALDWIN, BILL (SBCSI)
                                                      Here is my IR for the HSSC Stream. This is a great pack and I hope that I am able to convey that in my description. Happy editing! bill High Sierra Stream
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Jun 24, 2003
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Here is my IR for the HSSC Stream. This is a great pack and I hope that I
                                                        am able to convey that in my description.

                                                        Happy editing!

                                                        bill



                                                        High Sierra Stream Hydration Pack
                                                        Initial Report
                                                        June 24, 2003



                                                        Product Details:
                                                        Manufacturer: High Sierra Sport Company
                                                        Manufacturer URL: http://www.highsierrasport.com
                                                        Product: Stream (model 6869)
                                                        Manufacture date: 2003
                                                        MSRP: $70.00 USD
                                                        Listed pack weight: none
                                                        Actual pack weight:
                                                        Listed outside pack dimensions: 16 in. x 12 in. x 5 in. (40.6 cm x 30.5 cm x
                                                        12.7 cm)
                                                        Actual outside pack dimensions: same
                                                        Materials used: 600-denier Duralite®, Duralite® Ripstop

                                                        Product Description:
                                                        * Large main compartment holds a 2-liter water reservoir

                                                        * Hands-free water reservoir pressure valve

                                                        * Easy-access, water-resistant rain cover in bottom pocket

                                                        * Insulated water tube cover

                                                        * Hide-away front flap holds a helmet

                                                        * Front organizer pocket and dual side mesh pockets

                                                        * Angled adjustable compression straps

                                                        * Deluxe Airflow(tm)suspended mesh back provides maximum ventilation

                                                        * VAPEL(tm) mesh Airflow(tm) adjustable shoulder straps

                                                        * Adjustable waist belt secures the pack

                                                        * Adjustable sternum strap helps stabilize the pack

                                                        * Reflective accent piping for safety


                                                        Additional Product Dimensions:
                                                        2-L Water bladder: 6.5 in. x 15 in. (16.5 cm x 38.1 cm)
                                                        Water tube length: 41 in. (104 cm)
                                                        Distance between mesh backing and back of pack: 2.75 in. (7 cm)
                                                        Front pocket: 8 in. x 11 in. (20.3 cm x 27.9 cm)
                                                        Front inside pocket: 10.5 in. deep (26.7 cm)
                                                        Front zippered pocket: 5.5 in. deep (14 cm)
                                                        Front unzippered pocket: 4.25 in. deep (11 cm)
                                                        Pencil pockets: 2 in. x 3.25 in. (5 cm x 8.3 cm)
                                                        Front velcro pocket: 4 in. x 8.5 in. (10.2 cm x 21.6 cm)
                                                        Side mesh pockets: 5 in. x 9 in. (12.7 cm x 22.9 cm)

                                                        Initial Impressions:
                                                        The High Sierra Sport Company (HSSC) Stream arrived in excellent condition
                                                        with no damage during shipment. I received the model 6869 in blue and
                                                        appears as pictured on the company website. What the website does not
                                                        adequately portray is the curvature of the pack. The pack has a "Deluxe
                                                        Airflow(tm)suspended mesh back" that rests against your back, and the pack
                                                        itself curves away from your back with a maximum curvature of 2.75 in. (7
                                                        cm). The top of the pack that contacts your back includes a cushioned piece
                                                        for comfort. The "Airflow suspended mesh back" is a soft rubbery widely
                                                        spaced mesh.

                                                        The "VAPEL(tm) mesh Airflow(tm)" shoulder straps are adjustable and include
                                                        water tube holding velcro straps on both shoulder straps. The VAPEL(tm)
                                                        mesh sits on top of a light cushion of material. The VAPEL(tm) mesh is the
                                                        same material that is used for the suspended mesh back and the helmet
                                                        holder. The shoulder straps also include a sternum strap that is adjustable
                                                        vertically and horizontally. The bottom of the pack includes a waist belt
                                                        that is padded only around the hips. The waist belt includes clips that
                                                        keep the excess belt secured to the waist belt. These clips keep the excess
                                                        belt from hanging down and interfering with your legs. The top of the
                                                        shoulder straps have adjustable holders for the bit valve.

                                                        The pack opens at the top with a zipper and can be opened with one of two
                                                        available zippers or their pulls. An elasticized cover fits over the
                                                        zipper. The inside of the pack includes a pouch against the back of the
                                                        pack to house the 2-L water bladder. What I initially thought was a key
                                                        clip/holder at the top of the bladder pouch turned out to be a clip to hold
                                                        the bladder. It will be interesting to see how this clip wears on the
                                                        bladder during this test. The inside of the pack follows the curvature of
                                                        the pack as noted above.

                                                        The bladder has a Nalgene size opening for filling with a screw top. The
                                                        bottom of the bladder connects to the water tube. My initial testing to
                                                        fill the bladder with water showed that I could fill it with 2-L of water,
                                                        however closing the lid without spilling water has proved to be a bit
                                                        tricky. Once filled, my initial test showed that the connection to the
                                                        water tube leaked. Tightening the connection finally stopped the leak.

                                                        The front of the pack includes a zippered pocket that is 8 in. x 11 in.
                                                        (20.3 cm x 27.9 cm). The pocket is opened and closed with two zippers with
                                                        pull tabs and opens from the bottom of the pack to the top. Inside this
                                                        pocket from back to front, are a deep pocket, a zippered pocket, an
                                                        elasticized strap for pencils/pens, 4 small 2 in. x 3.25 in. (5 cm x 8.3 cm)
                                                        pockets, and a semicircular 4.5 in. (11.4 cm) pocket. The front zippered
                                                        pocket is covered by an adjustable triangular mesh flap that can hold a
                                                        helmet (climbing, bicycle, etc.).

                                                        The pack also includes a velcro storage pouch that is 4 in. (10.2 cm) deep
                                                        from the bottom of the pack and includes a bright orange loop for an ice axe
                                                        or for hanging other items.

                                                        The sides of the pack include 2 mesh pockets that will barely fit a 1-L
                                                        Nalgene bottle. Adjustable straps are also provided to allow the pack to
                                                        open up or snug down on the internal contents.

                                                        Summary:
                                                        This pack is loaded. It has plenty of pockets for storing small items and
                                                        appears to be well made and sturdy. The inside of the pack appears to be
                                                        roomy enough with a full water bladder to hold items needed for a day hike.
                                                        The helmet holder works as advertised and held a bicycle helmet during my
                                                        initial testing. The pack was easy to adjust for fit and carries well with
                                                        a full water bladder.

                                                        Testing Strategy:
                                                        ** bladder capacity
                                                        ** bladder durability
                                                        ** ease of cleaning the bladder
                                                        ** ease or removing and cleaning the water tube
                                                        ** capacity of the pack with a full water bladder
                                                        ** comfort of the pack with a full water bladder
                                                        ** comfort of the pack with a full water bladder and fully packed for a
                                                        weekend trip
                                                        ** ease of use for the rain cover
                                                        ** ease of access of the organizer pockets
                                                        ** capacity of the pack for a weekend or weeklong trip
                                                        ** ventilation of the Airflow mesh back and VAPEL mesh Airflow shoulder
                                                        straps

                                                        I plan to test this pack on Boy Scout outings, at our summer camp in Kansas,
                                                        and around the house walking the dog. The temperatures should vary during
                                                        this test from 100*F+ (38C+) to below freezing during the winter.

                                                        Personal Bio:
                                                        Name: Bill Baldwin
                                                        Age: 42
                                                        Gender: male
                                                        Height: 6' 00"
                                                        Weight: 170
                                                        Email address: bill dot baldwin at bigfoot dot com
                                                        Residence: Dallas, TX

                                                        Backpacking Background:
                                                        I am active in Boy Scouts as an adult leader and enjoy taking the older boys
                                                        on high adventure trips backpacking, canoeing, rappelling, and mountain
                                                        climbing. I am an active outdoorsman and camp/hike/backpack at least once a
                                                        month. I grew up camping with my parents and have enjoyed backpacking and
                                                        camping for the last 10+ years with my children on our family trips as well
                                                        as with scouts. I
                                                        am a recent convert to lightweight backpacking and am slowly acquiring the
                                                        lightweight toys so I can go on extended backpacking trips. I have several
                                                        uses for a hydration pack in my Scouting, camping, and hunting outings and
                                                        could put this pack through its paces to determine its strengths and
                                                        weaknesses.



                                                        Thanks to HSSC and BGT for the opportunity to test this pack.

                                                        Respectfully submitted,
                                                        Bill Baldwin
                                                      • Cora
                                                        Hi Bill -- I hope you are having a great day. I noticed in your Stream IR you mention that: ... When writing my Stream IR, I tried three
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Jun 24, 2003
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                                                          Hi Bill --

                                                          I hope you are having a great day.

                                                          I noticed in your Stream IR you mention that:

                                                          <snip>
                                                          > from the bottom of the pack and includes a bright
                                                          > orange loop for an ice axe
                                                          > or for hanging other items.
                                                          </snip>

                                                          When writing my Stream IR, I tried three different ice
                                                          axes (including a skinny ultralight one) and none of
                                                          them worked in the orange loop. Not even close.

                                                          I just thought you would want to know, since if you
                                                          tried your own axe and figured out some other way the
                                                          loop would fit, I would be very excited to learn how,
                                                          (I had a cool snow test trip all planned) and if not,
                                                          you could take or leave my comment.

                                                          Great report, too. I really liked the dimensions
                                                          section.

                                                          Cheers,
                                                          --Cora



                                                          __________________________________
                                                          Do you Yahoo!?
                                                          SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
                                                          http://sbc.yahoo.com
                                                        • Bill Baldwin
                                                          Cora, Thanks for the comments. I assumed that the orange loop is for an ice axe, but have not tried to put one in yet. Since it s only 95*F (35C) here in
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Jun 25, 2003
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                                                            Cora,
                                                            Thanks for the comments. I assumed that the orange loop is for an ice
                                                            axe, but have not tried to put one in yet. Since it's only 95*F (35C)
                                                            here in Dallas with 65%+ humidity, an ice axe is the last thing we're
                                                            thinking about :)

                                                            I debated putting the dimensions section in my report (debates with
                                                            myself sometimes resemble Cybil). I didn't know if it was too much
                                                            extraneous junk or if someone would be interested in all those minute
                                                            details.

                                                            Thanks for the heads up - I'll try to see what I can do with that
                                                            orange loop.

                                                            bill


                                                            --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, Cora <cahhmc@y...> wrote:
                                                            > Hi Bill --
                                                            >
                                                            > I hope you are having a great day.
                                                            >
                                                            > I noticed in your Stream IR you mention that:
                                                            >
                                                            > <snip>
                                                            > > from the bottom of the pack and includes a bright
                                                            > > orange loop for an ice axe
                                                            > > or for hanging other items.
                                                            > </snip>
                                                            >
                                                            > When writing my Stream IR, I tried three different ice
                                                            > axes (including a skinny ultralight one) and none of
                                                            > them worked in the orange loop. Not even close.
                                                            >
                                                            > I just thought you would want to know, since if you
                                                            > tried your own axe and figured out some other way the
                                                            > loop would fit, I would be very excited to learn how,
                                                            > (I had a cool snow test trip all planned) and if not,
                                                            > you could take or leave my comment.
                                                            >
                                                            > Great report, too. I really liked the dimensions
                                                            > section.
                                                            >
                                                            > Cheers,
                                                            > --Cora
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > __________________________________
                                                            > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                            > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
                                                            > http://sbc.yahoo.com
                                                          • Mark Stiebel
                                                            Hi Bill, Sorry for the delay in editing your initial report. Great report, and I have included only a few minor comments below. Feel free to take them on board
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Jul 1, 2003
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              Hi Bill,

                                                              Sorry for the delay in editing your initial report. Great report, and I
                                                              have included only a few minor comments below. Feel free to take them on
                                                              board as you see fit, and post your report to the website.


                                                              Additional Product Dimensions:
                                                              2-L Water bladder: 6.5 in. x 15 in. (16.5 cm x 38.1 cm)
                                                              Water tube length: 41 in. (104 cm)
                                                              Distance between mesh backing and back of pack: 2.75 in. (7 cm)
                                                              Front pocket: 8 in. x 11 in. (20.3 cm x 27.9 cm)
                                                              Front inside pocket: 10.5 in. deep (26.7 cm)
                                                              Front zippered pocket: 5.5 in. deep (14 cm)
                                                              Front unzippered pocket: 4.25 in. deep (11 cm)
                                                              Pencil pockets: 2 in. x 3.25 in. (5 cm x 8.3 cm)
                                                              Front velcro pocket: 4 in. x 8.5 in. (10.2 cm x 21.6 cm)
                                                              Side mesh pockets: 5 in. x 9 in. (12.7 cm x 22.9 cm)

                                                              ### I know there's been plenty of discussion on this point, but I think
                                                              that especially when converting rough measurements you needn't be so
                                                              accurate. Eg, 4 in. x 8.5 in (10cm x 22cm). Of course there's no need to
                                                              take them out now that they're already in there. Also, what is the
                                                              consensus on imperial measurements. I find 4" x 8.5" easier to read than
                                                              4 in. x 8.5 in. But maybe someone else can set me straight.

                                                              The pack has a "Deluxe
                                                              Airflow(tm)suspended mesh back" that rests against your back

                                                              ### Need a space before "suspended"

                                                              The top of the pack that contacts your back includes a cushioned piece
                                                              for comfort.

                                                              ### Maybe try "The top of the pack that comes into contact with your
                                                              back..."

                                                              The shoulder straps also include a sternum strap that is adjustable
                                                              vertically and horizontally.

                                                              ### I understand that the strap may be adjustable vertically, but by
                                                              horizontally do you mean that it can be tightened?

                                                              The bladder has a Nalgene size opening for filling with a screw top.

                                                              ### How big is "Nalgene size"? It may be more useful to make a size
                                                              analogy using a standard bottle measurement instead (eg, a common soft
                                                              drink bottle size)

                                                              The bottom of the bladder connects to the water tube.

                                                              ### Or does the water tube connect to the bottom of the bladder?

                                                              ** ease of use for the rain cover

                                                              ### Ease of use of the rain cover

                                                              ** ventilation of the Airflow mesh back and VAPEL mesh Airflow shoulder
                                                              straps

                                                              ### Earlier in your report you referred to Airflow and VAPEL with (tm).
                                                            • Bill Baldwin
                                                              Mark, Thanks for taking the time to edit my report. I have made the suggested edits and will upload as soon as the site is available. bill ...
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Jul 1, 2003
                                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                                Mark,
                                                                Thanks for taking the time to edit my report. I have made the
                                                                suggested edits and will upload as soon as the site is available.

                                                                bill

                                                                --- In BackpackGearTest@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Stiebel" <mark@f...> wrote:
                                                                > Hi Bill,
                                                                >
                                                                > Sorry for the delay in editing your initial report. Great report, and I
                                                                > have included only a few minor comments below. Feel free to take them on
                                                                > board as you see fit, and post your report to the website.

                                                                <SNIP>
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