Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

help! pump gauge drifts up and my puck are full holes and craters

Expand Messages
  • teddc88
    I purchased an es-1a that was relatively new. replaced the guage, descaled and added the new jet set up since the gicleur was missing. I have fiddled with this
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 22, 2013
      I purchased an es-1a that was relatively new. replaced the guage, descaled and added the new jet set up since the gicleur was missing.
      I have fiddled with this machine and cannot produce nearly as good a shot as I can with my old pid silvia.

      Please help me diagnose my problem. Here are the symptoms:

      Shortly after I turn on my machine, the pump pressure gauge starts to drift up before there is even any boiler pressure. Once the machine is warmed up the pump pressure will drift up to 12bars every time the boiler element activates, but come back down after the boiler turns off. Water is constantly draining a small amount from my over-pressure valve and out the drain hose while the machine is on.

      I also have the craziest amount of cratering and pinholes in the top of the puck (with and without pre-infusion. My silvia pucks are nothing like that. I have the temp and pressure almost identical to the each other and yet different results.

      My guesses:
      1)The pump gauge flutters some and maybe the pump needs a rebuild. When I test pressure at the grouphead, my portafilter guage is steady).
      2)The boiler is creating some backpressure on a leaky solenoid (except the pump gauge rises before the boiler is even pressurized), but why the correlation to the heater element cycle?
      3) I installed the new gicleur jet in a way that produces a blast of pressure to the puck.

      Does anyone's machine act similarly or any suggestions for a fix?

      Thanks for any help,
      Tedd
    • Tex
      Group/pump pressure is only measured under load. I don t trust panel-mount gauges, so use one that mounts on the portafilter and a backflush blank filter. Set
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 23, 2013
        Group/pump pressure is only measured under load. I don't trust panel-mount gauges, so use one that mounts on the portafilter and a backflush blank filter. Set it to 9 bar.

        Fluctuating boiler pressure would indicate a leaking diaphram in the pstat.

        Tex

        --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "teddc88" <teddc88@...> wrote:
        >
        > I purchased an es-1a that was relatively new. replaced the guage, descaled and added the new jet set up since the gicleur was missing.
        > I have fiddled with this machine and cannot produce nearly as good a shot as I can with my old pid silvia.
        >
        > Please help me diagnose my problem. Here are the symptoms:
        >
        > Shortly after I turn on my machine, the pump pressure gauge starts to drift up before there is even any boiler pressure. Once the machine is warmed up the pump pressure will drift up to 12bars every time the boiler element activates, but come back down after the boiler turns off. Water is constantly draining a small amount from my over-pressure valve and out the drain hose while the machine is on.
        >
        > I also have the craziest amount of cratering and pinholes in the top of the puck (with and without pre-infusion. My silvia pucks are nothing like that. I have the temp and pressure almost identical to the each other and yet different results.
        >
        > My guesses:
        > 1)The pump gauge flutters some and maybe the pump needs a rebuild. When I test pressure at the grouphead, my portafilter guage is steady).
        > 2)The boiler is creating some backpressure on a leaky solenoid (except the pump gauge rises before the boiler is even pressurized), but why the correlation to the heater element cycle?
        > 3) I installed the new gicleur jet in a way that produces a blast of pressure to the puck.
        >
        > Does anyone's machine act similarly or any suggestions for a fix?
        >
        > Thanks for any help,
        > Tedd
        >
      • teddc88
        I only trust the panel gauges to give me a relative measure of what is going on. The boiler gauge does exactly what I expect and cycle between .9 and 1.4 bars
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 24, 2013
          I only trust the panel gauges to give me a relative measure of what is going on. The boiler gauge does exactly what I expect and cycle between .9 and 1.4 bars which works well for my altitude. It is the fact that the group pump gauge floats up and down based on the boiler element heating or not. Under load it is gives me a fairly accurate 9 bar (verified with portafilter mounted gauge). I'm just wondering if the group/pump pressure fluctuations have something to do with the fact that all my pucks are full of craters and holes in the center. The puck looks terrible compared to my silvia shots and don't taste nearly as good. I've tried different temps and pressures on the bunn and can't get rid of these blown apart pucks. my grind and tamp technique is sound. any ideas?
          Tedd

          --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Tex" <texas-coffee@...> wrote:
          >
          > Group/pump pressure is only measured under load. I don't trust panel-mount gauges, so use one that mounts on the portafilter and a backflush blank filter. Set it to 9 bar.
          >
          > Fluctuating boiler pressure would indicate a leaking diaphram in the pstat.
          >
          > Tex
          >
          > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "teddc88" <teddc88@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I purchased an es-1a that was relatively new. replaced the guage, descaled and added the new jet set up since the gicleur was missing.
          > > I have fiddled with this machine and cannot produce nearly as good a shot as I can with my old pid silvia.
          > >
          > > Please help me diagnose my problem. Here are the symptoms:
          > >
          > > Shortly after I turn on my machine, the pump pressure gauge starts to drift up before there is even any boiler pressure. Once the machine is warmed up the pump pressure will drift up to 12bars every time the boiler element activates, but come back down after the boiler turns off. Water is constantly draining a small amount from my over-pressure valve and out the drain hose while the machine is on.
          > >
          > > I also have the craziest amount of cratering and pinholes in the top of the puck (with and without pre-infusion. My silvia pucks are nothing like that. I have the temp and pressure almost identical to the each other and yet different results.
          > >
          > > My guesses:
          > > 1)The pump gauge flutters some and maybe the pump needs a rebuild. When I test pressure at the grouphead, my portafilter guage is steady).
          > > 2)The boiler is creating some backpressure on a leaky solenoid (except the pump gauge rises before the boiler is even pressurized), but why the correlation to the heater element cycle?
          > > 3) I installed the new gicleur jet in a way that produces a blast of pressure to the puck.
          > >
          > > Does anyone's machine act similarly or any suggestions for a fix?
          > >
          > > Thanks for any help,
          > > Tedd
          > >
          >
        • Tex
          Group pressure is only measurable under load; whatever it reads at idle is irrelevant. The channeling you re experiencing has nothing to do with group
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 24, 2013
            Group pressure is only measurable under load; whatever it reads at idle is irrelevant. The channeling you're experiencing has nothing to do with group pressure; but is attributable to your technique. Have you tried the Weiss Distribution Technique?

            I suspect the pstat is failing if the boiler pressure fluctuates that much at idle: http://www.espresso-restorations.com/p-stats.html

            Tex

            --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "teddc88" <teddc88@...> wrote:
            >
            > I only trust the panel gauges to give me a relative measure of what is going on. The boiler gauge does exactly what I expect and cycle between .9 and 1.4 bars which works well for my altitude. It is the fact that the group pump gauge floats up and down based on the boiler element heating or not. Under load it is gives me a fairly accurate 9 bar (verified with portafilter mounted gauge). I'm just wondering if the group/pump pressure fluctuations have something to do with the fact that all my pucks are full of craters and holes in the center. The puck looks terrible compared to my silvia shots and don't taste nearly as good. I've tried different temps and pressures on the bunn and can't get rid of these blown apart pucks. my grind and tamp technique is sound. any ideas?
            > Tedd
            >
            > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Tex" <texas-coffee@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Group/pump pressure is only measured under load. I don't trust panel-mount gauges, so use one that mounts on the portafilter and a backflush blank filter. Set it to 9 bar.
            > >
            > > Fluctuating boiler pressure would indicate a leaking diaphram in the pstat.
            > >
            > > Tex
            > >
            > > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "teddc88" <teddc88@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I purchased an es-1a that was relatively new. replaced the guage, descaled and added the new jet set up since the gicleur was missing.
            > > > I have fiddled with this machine and cannot produce nearly as good a shot as I can with my old pid silvia.
            > > >
            > > > Please help me diagnose my problem. Here are the symptoms:
            > > >
            > > > Shortly after I turn on my machine, the pump pressure gauge starts to drift up before there is even any boiler pressure. Once the machine is warmed up the pump pressure will drift up to 12bars every time the boiler element activates, but come back down after the boiler turns off. Water is constantly draining a small amount from my over-pressure valve and out the drain hose while the machine is on.
            > > >
            > > > I also have the craziest amount of cratering and pinholes in the top of the puck (with and without pre-infusion. My silvia pucks are nothing like that. I have the temp and pressure almost identical to the each other and yet different results.
            > > >
            > > > My guesses:
            > > > 1)The pump gauge flutters some and maybe the pump needs a rebuild. When I test pressure at the grouphead, my portafilter guage is steady).
            > > > 2)The boiler is creating some backpressure on a leaky solenoid (except the pump gauge rises before the boiler is even pressurized), but why the correlation to the heater element cycle?
            > > > 3) I installed the new gicleur jet in a way that produces a blast of pressure to the puck.
            > > >
            > > > Does anyone's machine act similarly or any suggestions for a fix?
            > > >
            > > > Thanks for any help,
            > > > Tedd
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • teddc88
            I m only concerned about my high pump/group pressures at idle because I m concerned about the pressure released rapidly toward the puck in the first seconds of
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 24, 2013
              I'm only concerned about my high pump/group pressures at idle because I'm concerned about the pressure released rapidly toward the puck in the first seconds of brewing. I would think preinfusion would take care of that, but I would like to know why and where the pressure is coming from. If only to satisfy my curiosity.

              I have a Mazzer Jolly and even though it does not clump I use the Weiss distrubution and never have excellent results with my Silvia machine. Is no one else had this crater problem? could my new Gicleur jet be causing this. I may remove it altogether to test.

              I double checked the deadband on my Sirai and it is closer to .35-.4 bar. I know this is on the high side, but I think I've read that .3 is typical for new pressurestats. If I can get the bunn making good shots I will PID it as I have done with my Silvia.

              Tedd

              --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Tex" <texas-coffee@...> wrote:
              >
              > Group pressure is only measurable under load; whatever it reads at idle is irrelevant. The channeling you're experiencing has nothing to do with group pressure; but is attributable to your technique. Have you tried the Weiss Distribution Technique?
              >
              > I suspect the pstat is failing if the boiler pressure fluctuates that much at idle: http://www.espresso-restorations.com/p-stats.html
              >
              > Tex
              >
              > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "teddc88" <teddc88@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I only trust the panel gauges to give me a relative measure of what is going on. The boiler gauge does exactly what I expect and cycle between .9 and 1.4 bars which works well for my altitude. It is the fact that the group pump gauge floats up and down based on the boiler element heating or not. Under load it is gives me a fairly accurate 9 bar (verified with portafilter mounted gauge). I'm just wondering if the group/pump pressure fluctuations have something to do with the fact that all my pucks are full of craters and holes in the center. The puck looks terrible compared to my silvia shots and don't taste nearly as good. I've tried different temps and pressures on the bunn and can't get rid of these blown apart pucks. my grind and tamp technique is sound. any ideas?
              > > Tedd
              > >
              > > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Tex" <texas-coffee@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Group/pump pressure is only measured under load. I don't trust panel-mount gauges, so use one that mounts on the portafilter and a backflush blank filter. Set it to 9 bar.
              > > >
              > > > Fluctuating boiler pressure would indicate a leaking diaphram in the pstat.
              > > >
              > > > Tex
              > > >
              > > > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "teddc88" <teddc88@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > I purchased an es-1a that was relatively new. replaced the guage, descaled and added the new jet set up since the gicleur was missing.
              > > > > I have fiddled with this machine and cannot produce nearly as good a shot as I can with my old pid silvia.
              > > > >
              > > > > Please help me diagnose my problem. Here are the symptoms:
              > > > >
              > > > > Shortly after I turn on my machine, the pump pressure gauge starts to drift up before there is even any boiler pressure. Once the machine is warmed up the pump pressure will drift up to 12bars every time the boiler element activates, but come back down after the boiler turns off. Water is constantly draining a small amount from my over-pressure valve and out the drain hose while the machine is on.
              > > > >
              > > > > I also have the craziest amount of cratering and pinholes in the top of the puck (with and without pre-infusion. My silvia pucks are nothing like that. I have the temp and pressure almost identical to the each other and yet different results.
              > > > >
              > > > > My guesses:
              > > > > 1)The pump gauge flutters some and maybe the pump needs a rebuild. When I test pressure at the grouphead, my portafilter guage is steady).
              > > > > 2)The boiler is creating some backpressure on a leaky solenoid (except the pump gauge rises before the boiler is even pressurized), but why the correlation to the heater element cycle?
              > > > > 3) I installed the new gicleur jet in a way that produces a blast of pressure to the puck.
              > > > >
              > > > > Does anyone's machine act similarly or any suggestions for a fix?
              > > > >
              > > > > Thanks for any help,
              > > > > Tedd
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Tex
              What s your process for pulling a shot, and how long is your cooling flush? For my machine it s a 5 second flush with the boiler temp set to 240F, a very
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 24, 2013
                What's your process for pulling a shot, and how long is your cooling flush? For my machine it's a 5 second flush with the boiler temp set to 240F, a very stable intrashot temp profile.

                I'm not concerned with the group pressure, as you say you've measured it at 9 bar with a portafilter-mounted gauge. But if the boiler is too hot then you'll need a lengthy cooling flush to keep the shot temps down. Brew temps that're too high will cause an explosive burst of steam through the group; thus my concern for the pstat's accuracy.

                Since I do not trust boiler pressure gauges, I'm afraid we're at an impasse. All I can do is pass along what I've learned about these machines: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqdXT8Jg9rk

                Tex
              • teddc88
                I use the archaic stryrofoam cup method to test my grouphead brew temps. I ve used boiling water as my standard to calibrate it. Here at altitude it s 201
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 26, 2013
                  I use the archaic stryrofoam cup method to test my grouphead brew temps. I've used boiling water as my standard to calibrate it. Here at altitude it's 201 degrees. I've tested enough that am very confident that my water dance (typically a 20sec flush and 15sec pause) puts me very close to a 199-200 degree brew. I use the same method to test my silvia brew temp and the puck comes out flawless and my bottomless portafilter shows most of my shots have the potential to be the "god cup".

                  Why can't I reproduce this with my ES-1a?

                  I'll try some low temp shots and see what happens. I'm also going to remove my new style jet gicleur. It should increase the first blast of pressure on the puck, but maybe the jet was not installed properly. I did use the original top bolt with the new jet. I wish someone else had experienced this problem and found a solution. I'll report back.
                  Tedd

                  --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Tex" <texas-coffee@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > What's your process for pulling a shot, and how long is your cooling flush? For my machine it's a 5 second flush with the boiler temp set to 240F, a very stable intrashot temp profile.
                  >
                  > I'm not concerned with the group pressure, as you say you've measured it at 9 bar with a portafilter-mounted gauge. But if the boiler is too hot then you'll need a lengthy cooling flush to keep the shot temps down. Brew temps that're too high will cause an explosive burst of steam through the group; thus my concern for the pstat's accuracy.
                  >
                  > Since I do not trust boiler pressure gauges, I'm afraid we're at an impasse. All I can do is pass along what I've learned about these machines: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqdXT8Jg9rk
                  >
                  > Tex
                  >
                • Tex
                  It d help if you could shoot a video of your process and post it to YouTube or similar site, with a link posted here? I especially want to see the water dance
                  Message 8 of 8 , Feb 26, 2013
                    It'd help if you could shoot a video of your process and post it to YouTube or similar site, with a link posted here? I especially want to see the water dance from start to finish.

                    Look at this rough drawing of the ES-1A's group and how the water flows through it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BUG-is-Bunn/photos/album/298077807/pic/105380606/view

                    After the water leaves the gicluer it passes through the 3-way valve, back into the group, through water passages, to the dispersion disk, through the shower screen and then to the puck. Other than a possible blockage in it, the gicluer has little effect on the flow of water to the puck. If the group pressure is properly adjusted and the brew temp is correct, I believe you can look for a solution somewhere else.

                    It wouldn't hurt to remove the group parts, including the gicluer, to make sure everything is clear. But I'm still pretty sure that your problem is with your technique not the machine. But since you're convinced that your technique is adequate then you may have to tear the group down and do a complete rebuild of it.

                    Tex

                    --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "teddc88" <teddc88@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I use the archaic stryrofoam cup method to test my grouphead brew temps. I've used boiling water as my standard to calibrate it. Here at altitude it's 201 degrees. I've tested enough that am very confident that my water dance (typically a 20sec flush and 15sec pause) puts me very close to a 199-200 degree brew. I use the same method to test my silvia brew temp and the puck comes out flawless and my bottomless portafilter shows most of my shots have the potential to be the "god cup".
                    >
                    > Why can't I reproduce this with my ES-1a?
                    >
                    > I'll try some low temp shots and see what happens. I'm also going to remove my new style jet gicleur. It should increase the first blast of pressure on the puck, but maybe the jet was not installed properly. I did use the original top bolt with the new jet. I wish someone else had experienced this problem and found a solution. I'll report back.
                    > Tedd
                    >
                    > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Tex" <texas-coffee@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > What's your process for pulling a shot, and how long is your cooling flush? For my machine it's a 5 second flush with the boiler temp set to 240F, a very stable intrashot temp profile.
                    > >
                    > > I'm not concerned with the group pressure, as you say you've measured it at 9 bar with a portafilter-mounted gauge. But if the boiler is too hot then you'll need a lengthy cooling flush to keep the shot temps down. Brew temps that're too high will cause an explosive burst of steam through the group; thus my concern for the pstat's accuracy.
                    > >
                    > > Since I do not trust boiler pressure gauges, I'm afraid we're at an impasse. All I can do is pass along what I've learned about these machines: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqdXT8Jg9rk
                    > >
                    > > Tex
                    > >
                    >
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.