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Leak

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  • ssappeals
    I finally got the wiring done, and now I get to chase down leaks. At first I had a bunch of leaks, one of which required me to cut off the end of a pipe and
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 7, 2010
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      I finally got the wiring done, and now I get to chase down leaks. At first I had a bunch of leaks, one of which required me to cut off the end of a pipe and re-flair the tubing, but I think most of them are coming under control. There still seem to be a few small ones, but I expect tightening will fix them. But I'm not sure what to do about a leak on top of the group head, under the plug over the screen and such. The copper washer seems in good shape, as do the mating surfaces, but it doesn't seal. Tightening it slows, but doesn't stop the leak. So should I use some kind of gasket sealer, or use something other than a copper washer?

      Chuck
    • Tex
      Copper washers work better when they re soft, so try annealing it. Heat it to cherry red and let it air cool or drop it in water. Tex
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 7, 2010
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        Copper washers work better when they're soft, so try annealing it. Heat it to cherry red and let it air cool or drop it in water.

        Tex

        --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "ssappeals" <clmartin@...> wrote:
        >
        > I finally got the wiring done, and now I get to chase down leaks. At first I had a bunch of leaks, one of which required me to cut off the end of a pipe and re-flair the tubing, but I think most of them are coming under control. There still seem to be a few small ones, but I expect tightening will fix them. But I'm not sure what to do about a leak on top of the group head, under the plug over the screen and such. The copper washer seems in good shape, as do the mating surfaces, but it doesn't seal. Tightening it slows, but doesn't stop the leak. So should I use some kind of gasket sealer, or use something other than a copper washer?
        >
        > Chuck
        >
      • sh8knj8kster
        ... ~~~~Chuck, a picture is worth a thousand words=:-) http://www.flickr.com/photos/26137108@N04/3836198138/in/set-72157605654118354/ I highly suggest dropping
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 8, 2010
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          --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Tex" <Texas_Coffee@...> wrote:
          >
          > Copper washers work better when they're soft, so try annealing it. Heat it to cherry red and let it air cool or drop it in water.
          >
          > Tex
          >





          ~~~~Chuck, a picture is worth a thousand words=:-)


          http://www.flickr.com/photos/26137108@N04/3836198138/in/set-72157605654118354/


          I highly suggest dropping the copper washer in water after getting it cherry hot with your blow torch, if for no better reason than to avoid getting burnt by the hot metal. You only hurt the one you love=:-)



          Jake
          Reddick Fla.
          "To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing."




          http://www.shakinjake.blogspot.com/
          http://www.flickr.com/photos/26137108@N04




          > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "ssappeals" <clmartin@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I finally got the wiring done, and now I get to chase down leaks. At first I had a bunch of leaks, one of which required me to cut off the end of a pipe and re-flair the tubing, but I think most of them are coming under control. There still seem to be a few small ones, but I expect tightening will fix them. But I'm not sure what to do about a leak on top of the group head, under the plug over the screen and such. The copper washer seems in good shape, as do the mating surfaces, but it doesn't seal. Tightening it slows, but doesn't stop the leak. So should I use some kind of gasket sealer, or use something other than a copper washer?
          > >
          > > Chuck
          > >
          >
        • Charles Martin
          Thanks. I ll try that when I get home. I don t have a heat source at the office. Chuck
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 8, 2010
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            Thanks. I'll try that when I get home. I don't have a heat source at the office.

            Chuck

            On Dec 8, 2010, at 10:04 AM, sh8knj8kster wrote:

            > a picture is worth a thousand words
          • ssappeals
            Well, that annealing trick fixed the leak at the group (thanks, Tex and Jake), and I finally got the boiler filled with only one small leak that can easily be
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 9, 2010
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              Well, that annealing trick fixed the leak at the group (thanks, Tex and Jake), and I finally got the boiler filled with only one small leak that can easily be fixed. So I got far along enough to have a new problem.

              After the refill light turned off, and I verified there were no significant leaks, I pressed a dose button to see if water would get to the group. But nothing happened when I pressed the buttons starting from the left, until I got to the continuous button, which turned the pump on briefly, then turned off without any water coming out. Pressing it again did the same. The third time it did nothing. I verified the cable to the dose switch was firmly attached at each end, and tried again. No dice. I checked the three fuses in the control box, but all were fine. Unless someone experienced points me in another direction, I will take advantage of an advantage I have: a second non-working ES-A1. While it is a different model (one has steam/water knobs on top, the other the levers below), the dose switch seems to be the same. If that doesn't work, I suppose I could swap out the control boxes, too. Unless someone here has a better idea.

              While I was at it, I also tried to see if the boiler would heat. When I turned on the boiler, the PID lit up, showing 66 (a likely-accurate temp), but there was a flashing light on the left. I checked and found one of the limit thermostats broken, and replaced it with a working one from the other machine, but still there was no heat.

              FYI, this machine is the one pictured in the photo album "Mattquist's Bunn Rebuild", and discussed in several threads here when Matt got it. The switch is new, and everything thoroughly cleaned. The parts mentioned in the earlier threads have been replaced. As far as I know, though, the flow meter and solenoids are what he got (the group solenoid, as Matt has earlier mentioned, seems not to be the original).

              Any suggestions for how to test it and find the fault(s) are welcome.

              Chuck

              --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, Charles Martin <clmartin@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks. I'll try that when I get home. I don't have a heat source at the office.
              >
              > Chuck
              >
              > On Dec 8, 2010, at 10:04 AM, sh8knj8kster wrote:
              >
              > > a picture is worth a thousand words
              >
            • Tex
              I sympathize with you, but electronics have to be debugged on-site. Master the multimeter and work backwards from the problem. Eventually you ll find the fault
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 9, 2010
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                I sympathize with you, but electronics have to be debugged on-site.

                Master the multimeter and work backwards from the problem. Eventually you'll find the fault and know which piece to replace or bypass. I have a handful of alligator clip jumpers that I keep handy for tracing electrical problems.

                That's about all the advice I can offer.

                Tex

                --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "ssappeals" <clmartin@...> wrote:
                >
                > Well, that annealing trick fixed the leak at the group (thanks, Tex and Jake), and I finally got the boiler filled with only one small leak that can easily be fixed. So I got far along enough to have a new problem.
                >
                > After the refill light turned off, and I verified there were no significant leaks, I pressed a dose button to see if water would get to the group. But nothing happened when I pressed the buttons starting from the left, until I got to the continuous button, which turned the pump on briefly, then turned off without any water coming out. Pressing it again did the same. The third time it did nothing. I verified the cable to the dose switch was firmly attached at each end, and tried again. No dice. I checked the three fuses in the control box, but all were fine. Unless someone experienced points me in another direction, I will take advantage of an advantage I have: a second non-working ES-A1. While it is a different model (one has steam/water knobs on top, the other the levers below), the dose switch seems to be the same. If that doesn't work, I suppose I could swap out the control boxes, too. Unless someone here has a better idea.
                >
                > While I was at it, I also tried to see if the boiler would heat. When I turned on the boiler, the PID lit up, showing 66 (a likely-accurate temp), but there was a flashing light on the left. I checked and found one of the limit thermostats broken, and replaced it with a working one from the other machine, but still there was no heat.
                >
                > FYI, this machine is the one pictured in the photo album "Mattquist's Bunn Rebuild", and discussed in several threads here when Matt got it. The switch is new, and everything thoroughly cleaned. The parts mentioned in the earlier threads have been replaced. As far as I know, though, the flow meter and solenoids are what he got (the group solenoid, as Matt has earlier mentioned, seems not to be the original).
                >
                > Any suggestions for how to test it and find the fault(s) are welcome.
                >
                > Chuck
                >
                > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, Charles Martin <clmartin@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Thanks. I'll try that when I get home. I don't have a heat source at the office.
                > >
                > > Chuck
                > >
                > > On Dec 8, 2010, at 10:04 AM, sh8knj8kster wrote:
                > >
                > > > a picture is worth a thousand words
                > >
                >
              • ssappeals
                I uploaded before and after photos showing the split pipe I had to cut off, and the repaired end with a new flair. I also uploaded a photo of my PID
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 12, 2010
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                  I uploaded before and after photos showing the split pipe I had to cut off, and the repaired end with a new flair.

                  I also uploaded a photo of my PID connections to get power from the main switch. I have not seen a photo or drawing here showing how to do this, and hope that it will either draw instruction to me that I did it wrong, or will help people doing this in the future.

                  At the top of the switch, you will see I added a splitter on the number 2 terminal to get one power connection. The other one was somewhat more dicey, but there is a jumper bridging terminals 3 and 4. I didn't have another splitter, so I pulled of the jumper from terminal 4, slid the wire from the PID through the hole in the terminal, and pushed the jumper back on. Since the PID doesn't draw much power, I figured this should be sufficient.

                  I apologize that the photos are not better, but my camera died and I had to use my iPhone. Maybe Santa noticed my camera died.

                  Chuck

                  --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "ssappeals" <clmartin@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I finally got the wiring done, and now I get to chase down leaks. At first I had a bunch of leaks, one of which required me to cut off the end of a pipe and re-flair the tubing, but I think most of them are coming under control. There still seem to be a few small ones, but I expect tightening will fix them. But I'm not sure what to do about a leak on top of the group head, under the plug over the screen and such. The copper washer seems in good shape, as do the mating surfaces, but it doesn't seal. Tightening it slows, but doesn't stop the leak. So should I use some kind of gasket sealer, or use something other than a copper washer?
                  >
                  > Chuck
                  >
                • ssappeals
                  I m not much closer to coffee, but I have learned enough to have some PID questions, and to suspect my PID. First, I verified that the wiring was correct from
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 16, 2010
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                    I'm not much closer to coffee, but I have learned enough to have some PID questions, and to suspect my PID. First, I verified that the wiring was correct from the SSR to the burner, and that the burner was working, by connecting both leads to one pole of the SSR. On power-up, the temperature readout on the PID immediately began climbing. So, I then tested the PID's output to the SSR, and found no voltage. Thinking that it must be a programming issue, I tried to program the PID. That is when the trouble began.

                    First, I got a used Cal 3200 off eBay. It was in very used condition, with only the middle of the three front-panel buttons remaining. But using fingernails and a small screwdriver, I found I could operate the controls somewhat. I studied the manual, and decided some psychotic maniac drafted it. But I tried to figure it out. I set the input sensor to TC T, units to F, output to SSd, setpoint to 250, then set Autotune on. After exiting programming mode I got a message Autotune Fail. I tried a reset all, but never could figure out how to get it to actually do the reset.

                    The temperature readout seems to be accurate. But I could not figure out how to test it beyond what I describe above. The manual doesn't deal with any error messages, or give any troubleshooting help. Does it sound like the PID is dead, or is it just my brain that's dead?

                    Chuck
                  • Tex
                    This should get you started; Level 3: rSet ALL followed by; inPut = tc T, unit = F, SP1D = SSd, and exit program to adjust setpoint to 250 Level 1: tunE - on
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 16, 2010
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                      This should get you started;
                      Level 3: rSet ALL followed by; inPut = tc T, unit = F, SP1D = SSd, and exit program to adjust setpoint to 250

                      Level 1: tunE - on

                      Tex

                      --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "ssappeals" <clmartin@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I'm not much closer to coffee, but I have learned enough to have some PID questions, and to suspect my PID. First, I verified that the wiring was correct from the SSR to the burner, and that the burner was working, by connecting both leads to one pole of the SSR. On power-up, the temperature readout on the PID immediately began climbing. So, I then tested the PID's output to the SSR, and found no voltage. Thinking that it must be a programming issue, I tried to program the PID. That is when the trouble began.
                      >
                      > First, I got a used Cal 3200 off eBay. It was in very used condition, with only the middle of the three front-panel buttons remaining. But using fingernails and a small screwdriver, I found I could operate the controls somewhat. I studied the manual, and decided some psychotic maniac drafted it. But I tried to figure it out. I set the input sensor to TC T, units to F, output to SSd, setpoint to 250, then set Autotune on. After exiting programming mode I got a message Autotune Fail. I tried a reset all, but never could figure out how to get it to actually do the reset.
                      >
                      > The temperature readout seems to be accurate. But I could not figure out how to test it beyond what I describe above. The manual doesn't deal with any error messages, or give any troubleshooting help. Does it sound like the PID is dead, or is it just my brain that's dead?
                      >
                      > Chuck
                      >
                    • ssappeals
                      Tex, I got through this until the last step. When I enter level 1, and try to set tunE=on, the only options available are PArY and At.SP. Trying to interpret
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 17, 2010
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                        Tex,

                        I got through this until the last step. When I enter level 1, and try to set tunE=on, the only options available are PArY and At.SP. Trying to interpret the manual, it seems like this _might_ mean that the setpoint is not set. But when I exit programming mode, hold *, the display alternates 250 and oF. Which I think means that is the setpoint. Any idea why "on" is not a tunE option?

                        Chuck

                        --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Tex" <Texas_Coffee@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > This should get you started;
                        > Level 3: rSet ALL followed by; inPut = tc T, unit = F, SP1D = SSd, and exit program to adjust setpoint to 250
                        >
                        > Level 1: tunE - on
                        >
                        > Tex
                        >
                        > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "ssappeals" <clmartin@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I'm not much closer to coffee, but I have learned enough to have some PID questions, and to suspect my PID. First, I verified that the wiring was correct from the SSR to the burner, and that the burner was working, by connecting both leads to one pole of the SSR. On power-up, the temperature readout on the PID immediately began climbing. So, I then tested the PID's output to the SSR, and found no voltage. Thinking that it must be a programming issue, I tried to program the PID. That is when the trouble began.
                        > >
                        > > First, I got a used Cal 3200 off eBay. It was in very used condition, with only the middle of the three front-panel buttons remaining. But using fingernails and a small screwdriver, I found I could operate the controls somewhat. I studied the manual, and decided some psychotic maniac drafted it. But I tried to figure it out. I set the input sensor to TC T, units to F, output to SSd, setpoint to 250, then set Autotune on. After exiting programming mode I got a message Autotune Fail. I tried a reset all, but never could figure out how to get it to actually do the reset.
                        > >
                        > > The temperature readout seems to be accurate. But I could not figure out how to test it beyond what I describe above. The manual doesn't deal with any error messages, or give any troubleshooting help. Does it sound like the PID is dead, or is it just my brain that's dead?
                        > >
                        > > Chuck
                        > >
                        >
                      • Tex
                        I d send Cal Controls an email and see if they ll help. I ve had good luck with them over the years. Tex
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 17, 2010
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                          I'd send Cal Controls an email and see if they'll help. I've had good luck with them over the years.

                          Tex

                          --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "ssappeals" <clmartin@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Tex,
                          >
                          > I got through this until the last step. When I enter level 1, and try to set tunE=on, the only options available are PArY and At.SP. Trying to interpret the manual, it seems like this _might_ mean that the setpoint is not set. But when I exit programming mode, hold *, the display alternates 250 and oF. Which I think means that is the setpoint. Any idea why "on" is not a tunE option?
                          >
                          > Chuck
                          >
                          > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Tex" <Texas_Coffee@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > This should get you started;
                          > > Level 3: rSet ALL followed by; inPut = tc T, unit = F, SP1D = SSd, and exit program to adjust setpoint to 250
                          > >
                          > > Level 1: tunE - on
                          > >
                          > > Tex
                          > >
                          > > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "ssappeals" <clmartin@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I'm not much closer to coffee, but I have learned enough to have some PID questions, and to suspect my PID. First, I verified that the wiring was correct from the SSR to the burner, and that the burner was working, by connecting both leads to one pole of the SSR. On power-up, the temperature readout on the PID immediately began climbing. So, I then tested the PID's output to the SSR, and found no voltage. Thinking that it must be a programming issue, I tried to program the PID. That is when the trouble began.
                          > > >
                          > > > First, I got a used Cal 3200 off eBay. It was in very used condition, with only the middle of the three front-panel buttons remaining. But using fingernails and a small screwdriver, I found I could operate the controls somewhat. I studied the manual, and decided some psychotic maniac drafted it. But I tried to figure it out. I set the input sensor to TC T, units to F, output to SSd, setpoint to 250, then set Autotune on. After exiting programming mode I got a message Autotune Fail. I tried a reset all, but never could figure out how to get it to actually do the reset.
                          > > >
                          > > > The temperature readout seems to be accurate. But I could not figure out how to test it beyond what I describe above. The manual doesn't deal with any error messages, or give any troubleshooting help. Does it sound like the PID is dead, or is it just my brain that's dead?
                          > > >
                          > > > Chuck
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Tex
                          http://www.west-cs.com/content.aspx?id=1498
                          Message 12 of 12 , Dec 17, 2010
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                            http://www.west-cs.com/content.aspx?id=1498

                            --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Tex" <Texas_Coffee@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I'd send Cal Controls an email and see if they'll help. I've had good luck with them over the years.
                            >
                            > Tex
                            >
                            > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "ssappeals" <clmartin@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Tex,
                            > >
                            > > I got through this until the last step. When I enter level 1, and try to set tunE=on, the only options available are PArY and At.SP. Trying to interpret the manual, it seems like this _might_ mean that the setpoint is not set. But when I exit programming mode, hold *, the display alternates 250 and oF. Which I think means that is the setpoint. Any idea why "on" is not a tunE option?
                            > >
                            > > Chuck
                            > >
                            > > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Tex" <Texas_Coffee@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > This should get you started;
                            > > > Level 3: rSet ALL followed by; inPut = tc T, unit = F, SP1D = SSd, and exit program to adjust setpoint to 250
                            > > >
                            > > > Level 1: tunE - on
                            > > >
                            > > > Tex
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "ssappeals" <clmartin@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I'm not much closer to coffee, but I have learned enough to have some PID questions, and to suspect my PID. First, I verified that the wiring was correct from the SSR to the burner, and that the burner was working, by connecting both leads to one pole of the SSR. On power-up, the temperature readout on the PID immediately began climbing. So, I then tested the PID's output to the SSR, and found no voltage. Thinking that it must be a programming issue, I tried to program the PID. That is when the trouble began.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > First, I got a used Cal 3200 off eBay. It was in very used condition, with only the middle of the three front-panel buttons remaining. But using fingernails and a small screwdriver, I found I could operate the controls somewhat. I studied the manual, and decided some psychotic maniac drafted it. But I tried to figure it out. I set the input sensor to TC T, units to F, output to SSd, setpoint to 250, then set Autotune on. After exiting programming mode I got a message Autotune Fail. I tried a reset all, but never could figure out how to get it to actually do the reset.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The temperature readout seems to be accurate. But I could not figure out how to test it beyond what I describe above. The manual doesn't deal with any error messages, or give any troubleshooting help. Does it sound like the PID is dead, or is it just my brain that's dead?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Chuck
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
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