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RE: [BUG] Re: ES 1A/ Temp Issue

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  • Paul Albert Acosta
    Jack, This does not pass the snif test. Sounds to me as if you have increased resistance due to heat in your wiring or themocouple that turns on the heating
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 20 10:18 AM
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      Jack,

      This does not pass the snif test. Sounds to me as if you have increased resistance due to heat in your wiring or themocouple that turns on the heating element and prevents the SSR from releasing upon setpoint. Pressure does not increase unless you have heat addition to the boiler. This sounds like a grounding problem. Check to passive voltage between the boiler body and ground, unit frame and ground etc. This could be as simple as a lose wire connection, grounding short or thermal fuse conductivity problem. Do you have thermal paste on the themocouple and a solid connection for the thermal fuses to the boiler? Where is the thermocouple end placed?

      Espresso Regards,

      Paul Albert Acosta


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • jack_burien
      Paul. I did not have this problem b4 I switched from the pressure stat to the cal 3200 temp controller. I m using a 2 conductor wire from the thermocouple to
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 20 11:11 AM
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        Paul. I did not have this problem b4 I switched from the pressure stat to the cal 3200 temp controller. I'm using a 2 conductor wire from the thermocouple to the 3200. The wire is enclosed in a plastic cover. I also watched the temp drop and the heater come on after putting the cover on. Your suggestion seems right on. Perhaps I should use temp shielded wire from the thermocouple to the controller. Further, there is about 3/32 of the thermocouple rod above the fitting securing it to the boiler, but increasing the temp of the actual thermocouple would not cause a drop of temp reading. The increase in resistance of the wire would, however. The thermocouple is 6 inches long.
        What type wire should I purchase to connect the thermocouple to the cal 3200? Thanks for your insight. jack in burien :-)

        --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, Paul Albert Acosta <paul_albert_acosta@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Jack,
        >
        > This does not pass the snif test. Sounds to me as if you have increased resistance due to heat in your wiring or themocouple that turns on the heating element and prevents the SSR from releasing upon setpoint. Pressure does not increase unless you have heat addition to the boiler. This sounds like a grounding problem. Check to passive voltage between the boiler body and ground, unit frame and ground etc. This could be as simple as a lose wire connection, grounding short or thermal fuse conductivity problem. Do you have thermal paste on the themocouple and a solid connection for the thermal fuses to the boiler? Where is the thermocouple end placed?
        >
        > Espresso Regards,
        >
        > Paul Albert Acosta
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Tex
        Hmmm...? As Paul said, the temp can only rise if the element is on. There might be a 1 or 2 degree overshoot after the element shuts off, but that s it. If the
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 20 1:00 PM
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          Hmmm...?
          As Paul said, the temp can only rise if the element is on. There might be a 1 or 2 degree overshoot after the element shuts off, but that's it. If the temp continues to rise at ANY time after the PID reaches its set point, and the SSR is in an off state, the ONLY answer is a short in the element circuit - a very dangerous situation!

          Did your t/c not have a long enough wire? Thermocouples require a specific type of wire for extensions; check here: http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/subsectionSC.asp?subsection=H06&book=Temperature

          I'm not sure if the extension wire needs to be smaller or larger than the t/c wire: Maybe Jim Gallt can weigh in here?

          FWIW: I've been buying this t/c probe lately - HTMTSS-062G-6

          Tex

          --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "jack_burien" <jack_burien@...> wrote:
          >
          > Paul. I did not have this problem b4 I switched from the pressure stat to the cal 3200 temp controller. I'm using a 2 conductor wire from the thermocouple to the 3200. The wire is enclosed in a plastic cover. I also watched the temp drop and the heater come on after putting the cover on. Your suggestion seems right on. Perhaps I should use temp shielded wire from the thermocouple to the controller. Further, there is about 3/32 of the thermocouple rod above the fitting securing it to the boiler, but increasing the temp of the actual thermocouple would not cause a drop of temp reading. The increase in resistance of the wire would, however. The thermocouple is 6 inches long.
          > What type wire should I purchase to connect the thermocouple to the cal 3200? Thanks for your insight. jack in burien :-)
          >
          > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, Paul Albert Acosta <paul_albert_acosta@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Jack,
          > >
          > > This does not pass the snif test. Sounds to me as if you have increased resistance due to heat in your wiring or themocouple that turns on the heating element and prevents the SSR from releasing upon setpoint. Pressure does not increase unless you have heat addition to the boiler. This sounds like a grounding problem. Check to passive voltage between the boiler body and ground, unit frame and ground etc. This could be as simple as a lose wire connection, grounding short or thermal fuse conductivity problem. Do you have thermal paste on the themocouple and a solid connection for the thermal fuses to the boiler? Where is the thermocouple end placed?
          > >
          > > Espresso Regards,
          > >
          > > Paul Albert Acosta
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
        • jack_burien
          It appears I m not using the correct t/c wire as I didn t get any from Omega when I ordered the t/c. That may be my problem. All I have to do is find out
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 20 8:32 PM
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            It appears I'm not using the correct t/c wire as I didn't get any from Omega when I ordered the t/c. That may be my problem. All I have to do is find out what type wire and then go shopping around here. I'll also route the wire around the back side to the controller rather than across the top and then down next to the boiler and then to the controller. I admit I didn't think of increased resistance as the culprit. I should have when I saw the temp drop and the boiler start. Sometimes the obvious is too obvious.
            Thanks....results to follow above adjustments....jack in burien :-)
            --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Tex" <Texas_Coffee@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hmmm...?
            > As Paul said, the temp can only rise if the element is on. There might be a 1 or 2 degree overshoot after the element shuts off, but that's it. If the temp continues to rise at ANY time after the PID reaches its set point, and the SSR is in an off state, the ONLY answer is a short in the element circuit - a very dangerous situation!
            >
            > Did your t/c not have a long enough wire? Thermocouples require a specific type of wire for extensions; check here: http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/subsectionSC.asp?subsection=H06&book=Temperature
            >
            > I'm not sure if the extension wire needs to be smaller or larger than the t/c wire: Maybe Jim Gallt can weigh in here?
            >
            > FWIW: I've been buying this t/c probe lately - HTMTSS-062G-6
            >
            > Tex
            >
            > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "jack_burien" <jack_burien@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Paul. I did not have this problem b4 I switched from the pressure stat to the cal 3200 temp controller. I'm using a 2 conductor wire from the thermocouple to the 3200. The wire is enclosed in a plastic cover. I also watched the temp drop and the heater come on after putting the cover on. Your suggestion seems right on. Perhaps I should use temp shielded wire from the thermocouple to the controller. Further, there is about 3/32 of the thermocouple rod above the fitting securing it to the boiler, but increasing the temp of the actual thermocouple would not cause a drop of temp reading. The increase in resistance of the wire would, however. The thermocouple is 6 inches long.
            > > What type wire should I purchase to connect the thermocouple to the cal 3200? Thanks for your insight. jack in burien :-)
            > >
            > > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, Paul Albert Acosta <paul_albert_acosta@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Jack,
            > > >
            > > > This does not pass the snif test. Sounds to me as if you have increased resistance due to heat in your wiring or themocouple that turns on the heating element and prevents the SSR from releasing upon setpoint. Pressure does not increase unless you have heat addition to the boiler. This sounds like a grounding problem. Check to passive voltage between the boiler body and ground, unit frame and ground etc. This could be as simple as a lose wire connection, grounding short or thermal fuse conductivity problem. Do you have thermal paste on the themocouple and a solid connection for the thermal fuses to the boiler? Where is the thermocouple end placed?
            > > >
            > > > Espresso Regards,
            > > >
            > > > Paul Albert Acosta
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Paul Albert Acosta
            JACK!!! That is the problem!!!! The resistance in the thermocouple loop wiring changes when the heat goes up by covering the boiler. This is affecting the
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 20 9:15 PM
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              JACK!!! That is the problem!!!! The resistance in the thermocouple loop wiring changes when the heat goes up by covering the boiler. This is affecting the difference in the resistance (voltage referenced by the thermocouple and its wiring)! The thermocouple and its attached wiring works on the principle of dissimilar metal voltage differential to tell what temperature the boiler is at. A etype, J type, or K type would all work. Make sure that the Thermocouple assembly will work with these types. I would purchase a sealed sheath or shielded and isolated themocouple with prefitted and attached external wiring. Cut the thermocouples external wiring to length and then do at least a three (3) point claibration with the wire length remaining the same to the thermocouple terminal block. Make sure that you leave enough wiring to set the thermocouple in your standard temperature bath to perform the calibration.

              Regards,

              Paul Albert Acosta

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tex
              I just got an answer from Omega: Hello Robert Thermocouple ext wire does not have to be same dia as the t/c. Best regards, Bob Schaale OMEGA Tex
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 20 10:34 PM
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                I just got an answer from Omega:

                "Hello Robert
                Thermocouple ext wire does not have to be same dia as the t/c.
                Best regards,
                Bob Schaale
                OMEGA"

                Tex

                --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Tex" <Texas_Coffee@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hmmm...?
                > As Paul said, the temp can only rise if the element is on. There might be a 1 or 2 degree overshoot after the element shuts off, but that's it. If the temp continues to rise at ANY time after the PID reaches its set point, and the SSR is in an off state, the ONLY answer is a short in the element circuit - a very dangerous situation!
                >
                > Did your t/c not have a long enough wire? Thermocouples require a specific type of wire for extensions; check here: http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/subsectionSC.asp?subsection=H06&book=Temperature
                >
                > I'm not sure if the extension wire needs to be smaller or larger than the t/c wire: Maybe Jim Gallt can weigh in here?
                >
                > FWIW: I've been buying this t/c probe lately - HTMTSS-062G-6
                >
                > Tex
                >
                > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "jack_burien" <jack_burien@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Paul. I did not have this problem b4 I switched from the pressure stat to the cal 3200 temp controller. I'm using a 2 conductor wire from the thermocouple to the 3200. The wire is enclosed in a plastic cover. I also watched the temp drop and the heater come on after putting the cover on. Your suggestion seems right on. Perhaps I should use temp shielded wire from the thermocouple to the controller. Further, there is about 3/32 of the thermocouple rod above the fitting securing it to the boiler, but increasing the temp of the actual thermocouple would not cause a drop of temp reading. The increase in resistance of the wire would, however. The thermocouple is 6 inches long.
                > > What type wire should I purchase to connect the thermocouple to the cal 3200? Thanks for your insight. jack in burien :-)
                > >
                > > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, Paul Albert Acosta <paul_albert_acosta@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Jack,
                > > >
                > > > This does not pass the snif test. Sounds to me as if you have increased resistance due to heat in your wiring or themocouple that turns on the heating element and prevents the SSR from releasing upon setpoint. Pressure does not increase unless you have heat addition to the boiler. This sounds like a grounding problem. Check to passive voltage between the boiler body and ground, unit frame and ground etc. This could be as simple as a lose wire connection, grounding short or thermal fuse conductivity problem. Do you have thermal paste on the themocouple and a solid connection for the thermal fuses to the boiler? Where is the thermocouple end placed?
                > > >
                > > > Espresso Regards,
                > > >
                > > > Paul Albert Acosta
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • jack_burien
                Right on. I went to a local instrument company and picked up some type T t/c wire. Then I did the 32/212 check and found it to be right on. After
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 21 10:20 AM
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                  Right on. I went to a local instrument company and picked up some type "T" t/c wire. Then I did the 32/212 check and found it to be right on. After installation, the boiler overshot by 3 degrees on the first run with cold water, but has since stabilized after a few water refills. I'm now looking at a lower boiler pressure with the same temp reading as with the old wire. The cover now doesn't affect the control. Problem solved. Many thanks jack in burien big <G>

                  --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, Paul Albert Acosta <paul_albert_acosta@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > JACK!!! That is the problem!!!! The resistance in the thermocouple loop wiring changes when the heat goes up by covering the boiler. This is affecting the difference in the resistance (voltage referenced by the thermocouple and its wiring)! The thermocouple and its attached wiring works on the principle of dissimilar metal voltage differential to tell what temperature the boiler is at. A etype, J type, or K type would all work. Make sure that the Thermocouple assembly will work with these types. I would purchase a sealed sheath or shielded and isolated themocouple with prefitted and attached external wiring. Cut the thermocouples external wiring to length and then do at least a three (3) point claibration with the wire length remaining the same to the thermocouple terminal block. Make sure that you leave enough wiring to set the thermocouple in your standard temperature bath to perform the calibration.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Paul Albert Acosta
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • jack_burien
                  Tex. Forgot to ask. Why did you switch from the TMQSS-125U-6 T/C? Was this one giving you problems, or was it more of an installation/fit change? jack in
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 21 1:10 PM
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                    Tex. Forgot to ask. Why did you switch from the TMQSS-125U-6 T/C? Was this one giving you problems, or was it more of an installation/fit change? jack in burien :-)

                    --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Tex" <Texas_Coffee@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hmmm...?
                    > As Paul said, the temp can only rise if the element is on. There might be a 1 or 2 degree overshoot after the element shuts off, but that's it. If the temp continues to rise at ANY time after the PID reaches its set point, and the SSR is in an off state, the ONLY answer is a short in the element circuit - a very dangerous situation!
                    >
                    > Did your t/c not have a long enough wire? Thermocouples require a specific type of wire for extensions; check here: http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/subsectionSC.asp?subsection=H06&book=Temperature
                    >
                    > I'm not sure if the extension wire needs to be smaller or larger than the t/c wire: Maybe Jim Gallt can weigh in here?
                    >
                    > FWIW: I've been buying this t/c probe lately - HTMTSS-062G-6
                    >
                    > Tex
                    >
                    > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "jack_burien" <jack_burien@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Paul. I did not have this problem b4 I switched from the pressure stat to the cal 3200 temp controller. I'm using a 2 conductor wire from the thermocouple to the 3200. The wire is enclosed in a plastic cover. I also watched the temp drop and the heater come on after putting the cover on. Your suggestion seems right on. Perhaps I should use temp shielded wire from the thermocouple to the controller. Further, there is about 3/32 of the thermocouple rod above the fitting securing it to the boiler, but increasing the temp of the actual thermocouple would not cause a drop of temp reading. The increase in resistance of the wire would, however. The thermocouple is 6 inches long.
                    > > What type wire should I purchase to connect the thermocouple to the cal 3200? Thanks for your insight. jack in burien :-)
                    > >
                    > > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, Paul Albert Acosta <paul_albert_acosta@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Jack,
                    > > >
                    > > > This does not pass the snif test. Sounds to me as if you have increased resistance due to heat in your wiring or themocouple that turns on the heating element and prevents the SSR from releasing upon setpoint. Pressure does not increase unless you have heat addition to the boiler. This sounds like a grounding problem. Check to passive voltage between the boiler body and ground, unit frame and ground etc. This could be as simple as a lose wire connection, grounding short or thermal fuse conductivity problem. Do you have thermal paste on the themocouple and a solid connection for the thermal fuses to the boiler? Where is the thermocouple end placed?
                    > > >
                    > > > Espresso Regards,
                    > > >
                    > > > Paul Albert Acosta
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Tex
                    No problems Jack, just cheaper and with no connectors there s less chance for something to come loose. Tex
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 21 3:06 PM
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                      No problems Jack, just cheaper and with no connectors there's less chance for something to come loose.

                      Tex

                      --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "jack_burien" <jack_burien@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Tex. Forgot to ask. Why did you switch from the TMQSS-125U-6 T/C? Was this one giving you problems, or was it more of an installation/fit change? jack in burien :-)
                      >
                      > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Tex" <Texas_Coffee@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hmmm...?
                      > > As Paul said, the temp can only rise if the element is on. There might be a 1 or 2 degree overshoot after the element shuts off, but that's it. If the temp continues to rise at ANY time after the PID reaches its set point, and the SSR is in an off state, the ONLY answer is a short in the element circuit - a very dangerous situation!
                      > >
                      > > Did your t/c not have a long enough wire? Thermocouples require a specific type of wire for extensions; check here: http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/subsectionSC.asp?subsection=H06&book=Temperature
                      > >
                      > > I'm not sure if the extension wire needs to be smaller or larger than the t/c wire: Maybe Jim Gallt can weigh in here?
                      > >
                      > > FWIW: I've been buying this t/c probe lately - HTMTSS-062G-6
                      > >
                      > > Tex
                      > >
                      > > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "jack_burien" <jack_burien@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Paul. I did not have this problem b4 I switched from the pressure stat to the cal 3200 temp controller. I'm using a 2 conductor wire from the thermocouple to the 3200. The wire is enclosed in a plastic cover. I also watched the temp drop and the heater come on after putting the cover on. Your suggestion seems right on. Perhaps I should use temp shielded wire from the thermocouple to the controller. Further, there is about 3/32 of the thermocouple rod above the fitting securing it to the boiler, but increasing the temp of the actual thermocouple would not cause a drop of temp reading. The increase in resistance of the wire would, however. The thermocouple is 6 inches long.
                      > > > What type wire should I purchase to connect the thermocouple to the cal 3200? Thanks for your insight. jack in burien :-)
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, Paul Albert Acosta <paul_albert_acosta@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Jack,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > This does not pass the snif test. Sounds to me as if you have increased resistance due to heat in your wiring or themocouple that turns on the heating element and prevents the SSR from releasing upon setpoint. Pressure does not increase unless you have heat addition to the boiler. This sounds like a grounding problem. Check to passive voltage between the boiler body and ground, unit frame and ground etc. This could be as simple as a lose wire connection, grounding short or thermal fuse conductivity problem. Do you have thermal paste on the themocouple and a solid connection for the thermal fuses to the boiler? Where is the thermocouple end placed?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Espresso Regards,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Paul Albert Acosta
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
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