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4 Hole Steam Tip Test on my ES-1A

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  • dmankin
    On my recent visit to Houston, Tex handed me a 4-hole steam tip to try on my ES-1A. I have tried it several times, and am now starting to formulate some
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 3, 2009
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      On my recent visit to Houston, Tex handed me a 4-hole steam tip to try on my ES-1A. I have tried it several times, and am now starting to formulate some thoughts on using it.

      The stock tip has only 2 holes, and the volume of steam released is substantially greater (I don't know how the actual steam holes measure from tip to tip). The extra 'umph' is creating large bubbles rather quickly, and I have to work at dissipating them - both in the incorporating (after stretching) stage, or by banging the pitcher.

      Still, the 4 hole tip works.

      http://snipurl.com/4holetest1
      Excuse the latte art pour. I'm not that good at this under normal conditions, and the tripod was literally under my feet & arms as I tried to do all this in the lens' sight.

      I plan to thoroughly clean & remount the 2 hole tip after I've played a little more with the loaner 4-hole, and see which of the 2 I prefer.

      Have a good 4th of July to all the USA members!

      Cheers,

      David
    • dmankin
      Clarification! The steam volume is considerably greater with the FOUR HOLE TIP. I read what I wrote after I hit send... and thought... HUH? Cheers, David
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 3, 2009
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        Clarification!

        The steam volume is considerably greater with the FOUR HOLE TIP.

        I read what I wrote after I hit send... and thought... HUH?

        Cheers,

        David
        +++++++++++++++++++++++


        --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "dmankin" <david.mankin@...> wrote:
        >
        > On my recent visit to Houston, Tex handed me a 4-hole steam tip to try on my ES-1A. I have tried it several times, and am now starting to formulate some thoughts on using it.
        >
        > The stock tip has only 2 holes, and the volume of steam released is substantially greater (I don't know how the actual steam holes measure from tip to tip). The extra 'umph' is creating large bubbles rather quickly, and I have to work at dissipating them - both in the incorporating (after stretching) stage, or by banging the pitcher.
        >
        > Still, the 4 hole tip works.
        >
        > http://snipurl.com/4holetest1
        > Excuse the latte art pour. I'm not that good at this under normal conditions, and the tripod was literally under my feet & arms as I tried to do all this in the lens' sight.
        >
        > I plan to thoroughly clean & remount the 2 hole tip after I've played a little more with the loaner 4-hole, and see which of the 2 I prefer.
        >
        > Have a good 4th of July to all the USA members!
        >
        > Cheers,
        >
        > David
        >
      • Robert Harmon
        I hear you - just washed your hands and now can t do a thing with them? ;-) FWIW; I tried both tips and prefer the two-hole model. Seems I have more control
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 3, 2009
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          I hear you - just washed your hands and now can't do a thing with them? ;-)

          FWIW; I tried both tips and prefer the two-hole model. Seems I have more control over the process when I have less steam volume.

          Tex

          --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "dmankin" <david.mankin@...> wrote:
          >
          > Clarification!
          >
          > The steam volume is considerably greater with the FOUR HOLE TIP.
          >
          > I read what I wrote after I hit send... and thought... HUH?
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > David
          > +++++++++++++++++++++++
          >
          >
          > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "dmankin" <david.mankin@> wrote:
          > >
          > > On my recent visit to Houston, Tex handed me a 4-hole steam tip to try on my ES-1A. I have tried it several times, and am now starting to formulate some thoughts on using it.
          > >
          > > The stock tip has only 2 holes, and the volume of steam released is substantially greater (I don't know how the actual steam holes measure from tip to tip). The extra 'umph' is creating large bubbles rather quickly, and I have to work at dissipating them - both in the incorporating (after stretching) stage, or by banging the pitcher.
          > >
          > > Still, the 4 hole tip works.
          > >
          > > http://snipurl.com/4holetest1
          > > Excuse the latte art pour. I'm not that good at this under normal conditions, and the tripod was literally under my feet & arms as I tried to do all this in the lens' sight.
          > >
          > > I plan to thoroughly clean & remount the 2 hole tip after I've played a little more with the loaner 4-hole, and see which of the 2 I prefer.
          > >
          > > Have a good 4th of July to all the USA members!
          > >
          > > Cheers,
          > >
          > > David
          > >
          >
        • Jake Wilson
          ... ~~~~FWIW, When I first recieved my Salvatore One Black in early April, that 1.5 litre boiler hx machine was shipped with a 2 hole and a one hole steam
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 3, 2009
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            --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "dmankin" <david.mankin@...> wrote:
            >
            > On my recent visit to Houston, Tex handed me a 4-hole steam tip to try on my ES-1A. I have tried it several times, and am now starting to formulate some thoughts on using it.
            >
            > The stock tip has only 2 holes, and the volume of steam released is substantially greater (I don't know how the actual steam holes measure from tip to tip). The extra 'umph' is creating large bubbles rather quickly, and I have to work at dissipating them - both in the incorporating (after stretching) stage, or by banging the pitcher.
            >
            > Still, the 4 hole tip works.
            >
            > http://snipurl.com/4holetest1
            > Excuse the latte art pour. I'm not that good at this under normal conditions, and the tripod was literally under my feet & arms as I tried to do all this in the lens' sight.
            >
            > I plan to thoroughly clean & remount the 2 hole tip after I've played a little more with the loaner 4-hole, and see which of the 2 I prefer.
            >
            > Have a good 4th of July to all the USA members!
            >
            > Cheers,
            >
            > David
            >






            ~~~~FWIW, When I first recieved my Salvatore One Black in early April, that 1.5 litre boiler hx machine was shipped with a 2 hole and a one hole steam wand tip. Salvatore shipped it with the 2 hole tip installed and I used it a few times and didn't care for how much steam came out into the milk. It seemed to steam the milk too fast. What it wasn't doing, it wasn't creating much microfoam so I switched to the one hole tip and with a little practice and experimentation, I was able to create the amount of microfoam I like using the one hole tip.


            Definetley, less holes in the steam tip on any size boiler will allow one to be able stretch the milk better (IMO). it takes more time though. For instance, with the two hole tip, I can get my milk up to 150 degrees before the shot is pulled like in your video David, and when I use the one hole tip I start frothing the milk before pulling the shot. When the milk hits 100 degrees (end of stretching phase)-that's when I start the shot and the milk will hit 150 about the time the shot is finished (25 seconds or thereabouts). Again, I'm working with a 1.5 litre boiler so none of what I'm doing can compare with the ES-1A. I should also mention I'm using a 20 ounce pitcher starting out with around 6 ounces of cold whole milk


            Recently I had a cappuchino in a cafe in Gainesville that uses a 3 group LaMarzocco. When the barista stretched the milk she used a 12 ounce pitcher, & T.G. Lee whole milk. I didn't see what kind of tip they were using, nor did I see where the tip was in relation to the surface of the milk but the milk was stretched w/o a sound, and to say the microfoam was perfect was an understatement, as was the double ristretta black cat cappucchino (Intelligentsia is their roaster). Was also a pleasure to watch how much steam came out of the steam wand when the barista cleared the steam wand...a whole lotta steam


            Back to my humble machine frothing milk at home... lately I have been having trouble getting good microfoam (quantity). I'm convinced it's the milk. It changed with a new gallon, and when the last of that gallon of milk was gone, the quantity improved but is still off in this new gallon of milk. I'm thinking both gallon containers of milk have higher milk fat content, but this latest gallon has less milk fat than the one before it. Both containers had different pull dates





            Jake
            Reddick Fla.
          • ed benton
            OK after reading this discussion I decided to try my two hole tip that came with my machine I bought back in 1995 (new).  It was still in the little plastic
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 4, 2009
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              OK after reading this discussion I decided to try my two hole tip that came with my machine I bought back in 1995 (new).  It was still in the little plastic bag it was delivered in.  When we set up our coffee house we went straight to the four hole tip which did well.

              Fast forward to this morning.  I read your posts on the 2 or 4 hole and decide to dig the 2 hole out. 

              da da dummmmm.  I frothed milk so thick you could float a brick on it.   I could carve things in this foam.  Where was this discussion group 14 years ago? 

              Regardless many new cups of cappuccinos and machiatos to be made to confirm this new phenomena.  The research will be grueling and painful, but I do it for the children.

              Happy 4th,

              Ed Benton




              ________________________________
              From: Jake Wilson <sh8knj8k@...>
              To: BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2009 1:49:13 AM
              Subject: [BUG] Re: 4 Hole Steam Tip Test on my ES-1A





              --- In BUG-is-Bunn@ yahoogroups. com, "dmankin" <david.mankin@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > On my recent visit to Houston, Tex handed me a 4-hole steam tip to try on my ES-1A. I have tried it several times, and am now starting to formulate some thoughts on using it.
              >
              > The stock tip has only 2 holes, and the volume of steam released is substantially greater (I don't know how the actual steam holes measure from tip to tip). The extra 'umph' is creating large bubbles rather quickly, and I have to work at dissipating them - both in the incorporating (after stretching) stage, or by banging the pitcher.
              >
              > Still, the 4 hole tip works.
              >
              > http://snipurl. com/4holetest1
              > Excuse the latte art pour. I'm not that good at this under normal conditions, and the tripod was literally under my feet & arms as I tried to do all this in the lens' sight.
              >
              > I plan to thoroughly clean & remount the 2 hole tip after I've played a little more with the loaner 4-hole, and see which of the 2 I prefer.
              >
              > Have a good 4th of July to all the USA members!
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > David
              >

              ~~~~FWIW, When I first recieved my Salvatore One Black in early April, that 1.5 litre boiler hx machine was shipped with a 2 hole and a one hole steam wand tip. Salvatore shipped it with the 2 hole tip installed and I used it a few times and didn't care for how much steam came out into the milk. It seemed to steam the milk too fast. What it wasn't doing, it wasn't creating much microfoam so I switched to the one hole tip and with a little practice and experimentation, I was able to create the amount of microfoam I like using the one hole tip.

              Definetley, less holes in the steam tip on any size boiler will allow one to be able stretch the milk better (IMO). it takes more time though. For instance, with the two hole tip, I can get my milk up to 150 degrees before the shot is pulled like in your video David, and when I use the one hole tip I start frothing the milk before pulling the shot. When the milk hits 100 degrees (end of stretching phase)-that' s when I start the shot and the milk will hit 150 about the time the shot is finished (25 seconds or thereabouts) . Again, I'm working with a 1.5 litre boiler so none of what I'm doing can compare with the ES-1A. I should also mention I'm using a 20 ounce pitcher starting out with around 6 ounces of cold whole milk

              Recently I had a cappuchino in a cafe in Gainesville that uses a 3 group LaMarzocco. When the barista stretched the milk she used a 12 ounce pitcher, & T.G. Lee whole milk. I didn't see what kind of tip they were using, nor did I see where the tip was in relation to the surface of the milk but the milk was stretched w/o a sound, and to say the microfoam was perfect was an understatement, as was the double ristretta black cat cappucchino (Intelligentsia is their roaster). Was also a pleasure to watch how much steam came out of the steam wand when the barista cleared the steam wand...a whole lotta steam

              Back to my humble machine frothing milk at home... lately I have been having trouble getting good microfoam (quantity). I'm convinced it's the milk. It changed with a new gallon, and when the last of that gallon of milk was gone, the quantity improved but is still off in this new gallon of milk. I'm thinking both gallon containers of milk have higher milk fat content, but this latest gallon has less milk fat than the one before it. Both containers had different pull dates

              Jake
              Reddick Fla.







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Robert Harmon
              Glad to see you sacrificing for the team Ed! ;-) I had a Nuova Simonelli Oscar with a 4-hole tip. That tip put out SO much steam it s blow all the milk out of
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 4, 2009
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                Glad to see you sacrificing for the team Ed! ;-)

                I had a Nuova Simonelli Oscar with a 4-hole tip. That tip put out SO much steam it's blow all the milk out of a 20 oz jug if you cracked the valve wide-open! I used to stuff toothpicks into two of the holes just to keep from scalding myself. I also had a La Cimbali with a one-hole tip that didn't let enough out, so I ended up drilling the hole out for more steam.

                Tex

                --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, ed benton <edward09603@...> wrote:
                >
                > OK after reading this discussion I decided to try my two hole tip that came with my machine I bought back in 1995 (new).  It was still in the little plastic bag it was delivered in.  When we set up our coffee house we went straight to the four hole tip which did well.
                >
                > Fast forward to this morning.  I read your posts on the 2 or 4 hole and decide to dig the 2 hole out. 
                >
                > da da dummmmm.  I frothed milk so thick you could float a brick on it.   I could carve things in this foam.  Where was this discussion group 14 years ago? 
                >
                > Regardless many new cups of cappuccinos and machiatos to be made to confirm this new phenomena.  The research will be grueling and painful, but I do it for the children.
                >
                > Happy 4th,
                >
                > Ed Benton
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Jake Wilson <sh8knj8k@...>
                > To: BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2009 1:49:13 AM
                > Subject: [BUG] Re: 4 Hole Steam Tip Test on my ES-1A
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@ yahoogroups. com, "dmankin" <david.mankin@ ...> wrote:
                > >
                > > On my recent visit to Houston, Tex handed me a 4-hole steam tip to try on my ES-1A. I have tried it several times, and am now starting to formulate some thoughts on using it.
                > >
                > > The stock tip has only 2 holes, and the volume of steam released is substantially greater (I don't know how the actual steam holes measure from tip to tip). The extra 'umph' is creating large bubbles rather quickly, and I have to work at dissipating them - both in the incorporating (after stretching) stage, or by banging the pitcher.
                > >
                > > Still, the 4 hole tip works.
                > >
                > > http://snipurl. com/4holetest1
                > > Excuse the latte art pour. I'm not that good at this under normal conditions, and the tripod was literally under my feet & arms as I tried to do all this in the lens' sight.
                > >
                > > I plan to thoroughly clean & remount the 2 hole tip after I've played a little more with the loaner 4-hole, and see which of the 2 I prefer.
                > >
                > > Have a good 4th of July to all the USA members!
                > >
                > > Cheers,
                > >
                > > David
                > >
                >
                > ~~~~FWIW, When I first recieved my Salvatore One Black in early April, that 1.5 litre boiler hx machine was shipped with a 2 hole and a one hole steam wand tip. Salvatore shipped it with the 2 hole tip installed and I used it a few times and didn't care for how much steam came out into the milk. It seemed to steam the milk too fast. What it wasn't doing, it wasn't creating much microfoam so I switched to the one hole tip and with a little practice and experimentation, I was able to create the amount of microfoam I like using the one hole tip.
                >
                > Definetley, less holes in the steam tip on any size boiler will allow one to be able stretch the milk better (IMO). it takes more time though. For instance, with the two hole tip, I can get my milk up to 150 degrees before the shot is pulled like in your video David, and when I use the one hole tip I start frothing the milk before pulling the shot. When the milk hits 100 degrees (end of stretching phase)-that' s when I start the shot and the milk will hit 150 about the time the shot is finished (25 seconds or thereabouts) . Again, I'm working with a 1.5 litre boiler so none of what I'm doing can compare with the ES-1A. I should also mention I'm using a 20 ounce pitcher starting out with around 6 ounces of cold whole milk
                >
                > Recently I had a cappuchino in a cafe in Gainesville that uses a 3 group LaMarzocco. When the barista stretched the milk she used a 12 ounce pitcher, & T.G. Lee whole milk. I didn't see what kind of tip they were using, nor did I see where the tip was in relation to the surface of the milk but the milk was stretched w/o a sound, and to say the microfoam was perfect was an understatement, as was the double ristretta black cat cappucchino (Intelligentsia is their roaster). Was also a pleasure to watch how much steam came out of the steam wand when the barista cleared the steam wand...a whole lotta steam
                >
                > Back to my humble machine frothing milk at home... lately I have been having trouble getting good microfoam (quantity). I'm convinced it's the milk. It changed with a new gallon, and when the last of that gallon of milk was gone, the quantity improved but is still off in this new gallon of milk. I'm thinking both gallon containers of milk have higher milk fat content, but this latest gallon has less milk fat than the one before it. Both containers had different pull dates
                >
                > Jake
                > Reddick Fla.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Jake Wilson
                I m top posting for a change of pace=:-) Well, I m back with the two hole tip for a bit (Salvatore One Black). Had a rude awakening the other day. Wifey
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 8, 2009
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                  I'm top posting for a change of pace=:-)


                  Well, I'm back with the two hole tip for a bit (Salvatore One Black). Had a rude awakening the other day. Wifey threw me out of the house, before I had a chance to pull my first shot of the day. Not marital problems mind you, rather I had to run a pee sample to our vet's clinic and get it there pronto (turns out our house dog has urinary problems, curable with antibiotics), so before leaving Gainesville, I stopped at Volta Cafe for a couple of caps


                  And I was quizing the female barista about her frothing technique. Again, they use a 3 group LaMarzocco, so dbl boiler, tons of dry steam but they are using a 4 hole tip frothing the milk in 12 ounce pitcher, enough for one conventional sized cappuchino (5.5 ounces)with maybe some spare milk leftover. I aksed if I could get a close up look at her technique to which she replied yes so I hung my head as close as I could get to see what was going on from my side of the counter


                  It took no more than 10 seconds from start to finish for her to froth what I would call very good creamy microfoam. The tip of the wand starts out on top and moves it's way down to roll the milk after it hits 100 degrees (she verified temps). I should qualify their experience. The owner sends his staff to Chicago to be trained by Intelligentsia (their roaster) periodically


                  Needless to say, I was inspired with how their milk turns out so I thought I'd go home and pull the 2 hole tip out of the drawer and retire the one hole tip for a bit. It's a work in progress. I think it's time for me to sit down (figuratively) with a gallon of milk and work on frothing with this two hole tip and the 12 ounce pitcher. I've had some decent results the half dozen or so times I've used the two holer but clearly I need to work on technique.


                  BTW, I was drinking double ristretto washed yirg (kurimi) caps at Volta, sans sweetner. Quite enjoyable to taste someone else's shots for a change but I still prefer to pull my own at home



                  Jake
                  Reddick Fla.




                  --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Harmon" <Texas_Coffee@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Glad to see you sacrificing for the team Ed! ;-)
                  >
                  > I had a Nuova Simonelli Oscar with a 4-hole tip. That tip put out SO much steam it's blow all the milk out of a 20 oz jug if you cracked the valve wide-open! I used to stuff toothpicks into two of the holes just to keep from scalding myself. I also had a La Cimbali with a one-hole tip that didn't let enough out, so I ended up drilling the hole out for more steam.
                  >
                  > Tex
                  >
                  > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, ed benton <edward09603@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > OK after reading this discussion I decided to try my two hole tip that came with my machine I bought back in 1995 (new).  It was still in the little plastic bag it was delivered in.  When we set up our coffee house we went straight to the four hole tip which did well.
                  > >
                  > > Fast forward to this morning.  I read your posts on the 2 or 4 hole and decide to dig the 2 hole out. 
                  > >
                  > > da da dummmmm.  I frothed milk so thick you could float a brick on it.   I could carve things in this foam.  Where was this discussion group 14 years ago? 
                  > >
                  > > Regardless many new cups of cappuccinos and machiatos to be made to confirm this new phenomena.  The research will be grueling and painful, but I do it for the children.
                  > >
                  > > Happy 4th,
                  > >
                  > > Ed Benton
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ________________________________
                  > > From: Jake Wilson <sh8knj8k@>
                  > > To: BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2009 1:49:13 AM
                  > > Subject: [BUG] Re: 4 Hole Steam Tip Test on my ES-1A
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@ yahoogroups. com, "dmankin" <david.mankin@ ...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > On my recent visit to Houston, Tex handed me a 4-hole steam tip to try on my ES-1A. I have tried it several times, and am now starting to formulate some thoughts on using it.
                  > > >
                  > > > The stock tip has only 2 holes, and the volume of steam released is substantially greater (I don't know how the actual steam holes measure from tip to tip). The extra 'umph' is creating large bubbles rather quickly, and I have to work at dissipating them - both in the incorporating (after stretching) stage, or by banging the pitcher.
                  > > >
                  > > > Still, the 4 hole tip works.
                  > > >
                  > > > http://snipurl. com/4holetest1
                  > > > Excuse the latte art pour. I'm not that good at this under normal conditions, and the tripod was literally under my feet & arms as I tried to do all this in the lens' sight.
                  > > >
                  > > > I plan to thoroughly clean & remount the 2 hole tip after I've played a little more with the loaner 4-hole, and see which of the 2 I prefer.
                  > > >
                  > > > Have a good 4th of July to all the USA members!
                  > > >
                  > > > Cheers,
                  > > >
                  > > > David
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > ~~~~FWIW, When I first recieved my Salvatore One Black in early April, that 1.5 litre boiler hx machine was shipped with a 2 hole and a one hole steam wand tip. Salvatore shipped it with the 2 hole tip installed and I used it a few times and didn't care for how much steam came out into the milk. It seemed to steam the milk too fast. What it wasn't doing, it wasn't creating much microfoam so I switched to the one hole tip and with a little practice and experimentation, I was able to create the amount of microfoam I like using the one hole tip.
                  > >
                  > > Definetley, less holes in the steam tip on any size boiler will allow one to be able stretch the milk better (IMO). it takes more time though. For instance, with the two hole tip, I can get my milk up to 150 degrees before the shot is pulled like in your video David, and when I use the one hole tip I start frothing the milk before pulling the shot. When the milk hits 100 degrees (end of stretching phase)-that' s when I start the shot and the milk will hit 150 about the time the shot is finished (25 seconds or thereabouts) . Again, I'm working with a 1.5 litre boiler so none of what I'm doing can compare with the ES-1A. I should also mention I'm using a 20 ounce pitcher starting out with around 6 ounces of cold whole milk
                  > >
                  > > Recently I had a cappuchino in a cafe in Gainesville that uses a 3 group LaMarzocco. When the barista stretched the milk she used a 12 ounce pitcher, & T.G. Lee whole milk. I didn't see what kind of tip they were using, nor did I see where the tip was in relation to the surface of the milk but the milk was stretched w/o a sound, and to say the microfoam was perfect was an understatement, as was the double ristretta black cat cappucchino (Intelligentsia is their roaster). Was also a pleasure to watch how much steam came out of the steam wand when the barista cleared the steam wand...a whole lotta steam
                  > >
                  > > Back to my humble machine frothing milk at home... lately I have been having trouble getting good microfoam (quantity). I'm convinced it's the milk. It changed with a new gallon, and when the last of that gallon of milk was gone, the quantity improved but is still off in this new gallon of milk. I'm thinking both gallon containers of milk have higher milk fat content, but this latest gallon has less milk fat than the one before it. Both containers had different pull dates
                  > >
                  > > Jake
                  > > Reddick Fla.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                • dmankin
                  Jake, There s another factor that gets overlooked (IMHO) in most discussions on steam tip options; the diameter of he holes themselves! Here s the deal - I
                  Message 8 of 9 , Aug 9, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Jake,

                    There's another factor that gets overlooked (IMHO) in most discussions on steam tip options; the diameter of he holes themselves!

                    Here's the deal - I tried Tex's 4-hole tip. The volume of steam was tremendous. So much so, in fact, that it overpowered the pitcher of milk. I tried a 20 oz. pitcher, a 32 oz pitcher, and even a little 10 oz. guy. The volume increase was so dramatic, in fact, I started to investigate why. I found that Tex's 4-hole tip not only sported twice the number of holes (of course), but the holes themselves were noticeably larger.

                    Check out my photo album - I just posted a picture showing the 2 tips together - you'll see what I mean on this.

                    Yes, I could get the pitcher up to temp very quickly w/ the 4 hole tip, but I did not like the texture - it was way too bubbly, and I tried dozens of times to get it under control. Like putting out a lit match with a fire extinguisher... way too much!

                    When I have some bucks in hand, I'll order a different tip with more than 2 holes, but reasonable size openings. I think that'll be the answer I'm looking for.

                    Let me know what you find as well,

                    David
                    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++


                    --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Jake Wilson" <sh8knj8k@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I'm top posting for a change of pace=:-)
                    >
                    >
                    > Well, I'm back with the two hole tip for a bit (Salvatore One Black). Had a rude awakening the other day. Wifey threw me out of the house, before I had a chance to pull my first shot of the day. Not marital problems mind you, rather I had to run a pee sample to our vet's clinic and get it there pronto (turns out our house dog has urinary problems, curable with antibiotics), so before leaving Gainesville, I stopped at Volta Cafe for a couple of caps
                    >
                    >
                    > And I was quizing the female barista about her frothing technique. Again, they use a 3 group LaMarzocco, so dbl boiler, tons of dry steam but they are using a 4 hole tip frothing the milk in 12 ounce pitcher, enough for one conventional sized cappuchino (5.5 ounces)with maybe some spare milk leftover. I aksed if I could get a close up look at her technique to which she replied yes so I hung my head as close as I could get to see what was going on from my side of the counter
                    >
                    >
                    > It took no more than 10 seconds from start to finish for her to froth what I would call very good creamy microfoam. The tip of the wand starts out on top and moves it's way down to roll the milk after it hits 100 degrees (she verified temps). I should qualify their experience. The owner sends his staff to Chicago to be trained by Intelligentsia (their roaster) periodically
                    >
                    >
                    > Needless to say, I was inspired with how their milk turns out so I thought I'd go home and pull the 2 hole tip out of the drawer and retire the one hole tip for a bit. It's a work in progress. I think it's time for me to sit down (figuratively) with a gallon of milk and work on frothing with this two hole tip and the 12 ounce pitcher. I've had some decent results the half dozen or so times I've used the two holer but clearly I need to work on technique.
                    >
                    >
                    > BTW, I was drinking double ristretto washed yirg (kurimi) caps at Volta, sans sweetner. Quite enjoyable to taste someone else's shots for a change but I still prefer to pull my own at home
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Jake
                    > Reddick Fla.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Harmon" <Texas_Coffee@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Glad to see you sacrificing for the team Ed! ;-)
                    > >
                    > > I had a Nuova Simonelli Oscar with a 4-hole tip. That tip put out SO much steam it's blow all the milk out of a 20 oz jug if you cracked the valve wide-open! I used to stuff toothpicks into two of the holes just to keep from scalding myself. I also had a La Cimbali with a one-hole tip that didn't let enough out, so I ended up drilling the hole out for more steam.
                    > >
                    > > Tex
                    > >
                    > > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, ed benton <edward09603@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > OK after reading this discussion I decided to try my two hole tip that came with my machine I bought back in 1995 (new).  It was still in the little plastic bag it was delivered in.  When we set up our coffee house we went straight to the four hole tip which did well.
                    > > >
                    > > > Fast forward to this morning.  I read your posts on the 2 or 4 hole and decide to dig the 2 hole out. 
                    > > >
                    > > > da da dummmmm.  I frothed milk so thick you could float a brick on it.   I could carve things in this foam.  Where was this discussion group 14 years ago? 
                    > > >
                    > > > Regardless many new cups of cappuccinos and machiatos to be made to confirm this new phenomena.  The research will be grueling and painful, but I do it for the children.
                    > > >
                    > > > Happy 4th,
                    > > >
                    > > > Ed Benton
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ________________________________
                    > > > From: Jake Wilson <sh8knj8k@>
                    > > > To: BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2009 1:49:13 AM
                    > > > Subject: [BUG] Re: 4 Hole Steam Tip Test on my ES-1A
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@ yahoogroups. com, "dmankin" <david.mankin@ ...> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > On my recent visit to Houston, Tex handed me a 4-hole steam tip to try on my ES-1A. I have tried it several times, and am now starting to formulate some thoughts on using it.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The stock tip has only 2 holes, and the volume of steam released is substantially greater (I don't know how the actual steam holes measure from tip to tip). The extra 'umph' is creating large bubbles rather quickly, and I have to work at dissipating them - both in the incorporating (after stretching) stage, or by banging the pitcher.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Still, the 4 hole tip works.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > http://snipurl. com/4holetest1
                    > > > > Excuse the latte art pour. I'm not that good at this under normal conditions, and the tripod was literally under my feet & arms as I tried to do all this in the lens' sight.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I plan to thoroughly clean & remount the 2 hole tip after I've played a little more with the loaner 4-hole, and see which of the 2 I prefer.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Have a good 4th of July to all the USA members!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Cheers,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > David
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ~~~~FWIW, When I first recieved my Salvatore One Black in early April, that 1.5 litre boiler hx machine was shipped with a 2 hole and a one hole steam wand tip. Salvatore shipped it with the 2 hole tip installed and I used it a few times and didn't care for how much steam came out into the milk. It seemed to steam the milk too fast. What it wasn't doing, it wasn't creating much microfoam so I switched to the one hole tip and with a little practice and experimentation, I was able to create the amount of microfoam I like using the one hole tip.
                    > > >
                    > > > Definetley, less holes in the steam tip on any size boiler will allow one to be able stretch the milk better (IMO). it takes more time though. For instance, with the two hole tip, I can get my milk up to 150 degrees before the shot is pulled like in your video David, and when I use the one hole tip I start frothing the milk before pulling the shot. When the milk hits 100 degrees (end of stretching phase)-that' s when I start the shot and the milk will hit 150 about the time the shot is finished (25 seconds or thereabouts) . Again, I'm working with a 1.5 litre boiler so none of what I'm doing can compare with the ES-1A. I should also mention I'm using a 20 ounce pitcher starting out with around 6 ounces of cold whole milk
                    > > >
                    > > > Recently I had a cappuchino in a cafe in Gainesville that uses a 3 group LaMarzocco. When the barista stretched the milk she used a 12 ounce pitcher, & T.G. Lee whole milk. I didn't see what kind of tip they were using, nor did I see where the tip was in relation to the surface of the milk but the milk was stretched w/o a sound, and to say the microfoam was perfect was an understatement, as was the double ristretta black cat cappucchino (Intelligentsia is their roaster). Was also a pleasure to watch how much steam came out of the steam wand when the barista cleared the steam wand...a whole lotta steam
                    > > >
                    > > > Back to my humble machine frothing milk at home... lately I have been having trouble getting good microfoam (quantity). I'm convinced it's the milk. It changed with a new gallon, and when the last of that gallon of milk was gone, the quantity improved but is still off in this new gallon of milk. I'm thinking both gallon containers of milk have higher milk fat content, but this latest gallon has less milk fat than the one before it. Both containers had different pull dates
                    > > >
                    > > > Jake
                    > > > Reddick Fla.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Jake Wilson
                    ... ~~~I had some time this morning so I got my drill index out to measure the size of the openings in both of the steam wand tips I have for the Salvatore hx
                    Message 9 of 9 , Aug 9, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "dmankin" <david.mankin@...> wrote:




                      > When I have some bucks in hand, I'll order a different tip with more than 2 holes, but reasonable size openings. I think that'll be the answer I'm looking for.
                      >
                      > Let me know what you find as well,
                      >




                      ~~~I had some time this morning so I got my drill index out to measure the size of the openings in both of the steam wand tips I have for the Salvatore hx espresso machine I'm currently using. The one hole tip hole size is a #56 drill, the two hole tip hole sizes, both are a #52 drill

                      #52 drill is .0635" (about 1/16")

                      the #56 drill is .0465" which is smaller than the other two hole tip


                      First pitcher I frothed today I filled a 12 ounce pitcher 1/3 full of milk (about 4 ounces) and used the two hole tip. Couldn't get a nice microfoam with it. Too hot too fast


                      Next pitcher I used a 20 ounce pitcher filled close to 1/3rd (6 ounces?) with milk and achieved a very nice microfoam (using the two hole tip). Both pitchers were stored in the freezer prior to filluing with milk and frothing


                      Seat of the pants analysis tells me the two hole tip used with my One Black Salvatore machine is fine when uesd with a 20 ounce pitcher filled about 1/3 rd of the voluume with whole milk (which is the milk grade I use)


                      As I was typing this up, I decided to install the one hole tip and froth milk in the 12 ounce pitcher, filling the 12 ounce pitcher with 4 ounces (approx) whole milk. Pitcher was stored in the freezer. I dosed coffee into my double basket and locked it into the PF, cleared the steam wand of condensed water and pulled the shot and frothed the milk (simultaneously)


                      Beautiful microfaom was the result. I can only surmise...the one hole tip should be used when frothing milk in the 12 ounce pitcher and the two hole tip to be used only with a 20 ounce pitcher


                      For the majority of use, since early April of this year, when I obtained the Salvatore machine, I have been using the one hole tip with the 20 ounce pitcher. I could get good microfoam results but the time it took was way too long. How long? Over a mintue to froth approx 6 ounces of milk (starting out). By the time the milk doubled in voluume, I had enough milk with some leftover to top off my two cappuchino cups that I pull a tight double ristretto shot into (split between two cups)


                      I could get away with using the 12 ounce pitcher and the one hole tip to froth milk for my two caps that I drink but I like the luxury of using a 20 ounce pitcher which allows me to have some excess working space to froth milk in. Not having the pitcher full of frothed milk allows me to swirl the pitcher some to help mix the milk prior to pouring in the cups


                      Life is beautiful=:-)






                      Jake
                      Reddick Fla.







                      >
                      > Jake,
                      >
                      > There's another factor that gets overlooked (IMHO) in most discussions on steam tip options; the diameter of he holes themselves!
                      >
                      > Here's the deal - I tried Tex's 4-hole tip. The volume of steam was tremendous. So much so, in fact, that it overpowered the pitcher of milk. I tried a 20 oz. pitcher, a 32 oz pitcher, and even a little 10 oz. guy. The volume increase was so dramatic, in fact, I started to investigate why. I found that Tex's 4-hole tip not only sported twice the number of holes (of course), but the holes themselves were noticeably larger.
                      >
                      > Check out my photo album - I just posted a picture showing the 2 tips together - you'll see what I mean on this.
                      >
                      > Yes, I could get the pitcher up to temp very quickly w/ the 4 hole tip, but I did not like the texture - it was way too bubbly, and I tried dozens of times to get it under control. Like putting out a lit match with a fire extinguisher... way too much!
                      >
                      > When I have some bucks in hand, I'll order a different tip with more than 2 holes, but reasonable size openings. I think that'll be the answer I'm looking for.
                      >
                      > Let me know what you find as well,
                      >
                      > David
                      > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Jake Wilson" <sh8knj8k@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I'm top posting for a change of pace=:-)
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Well, I'm back with the two hole tip for a bit (Salvatore One Black). Had a rude awakening the other day. Wifey threw me out of the house, before I had a chance to pull my first shot of the day. Not marital problems mind you, rather I had to run a pee sample to our vet's clinic and get it there pronto (turns out our house dog has urinary problems, curable with antibiotics), so before leaving Gainesville, I stopped at Volta Cafe for a couple of caps
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > And I was quizing the female barista about her frothing technique. Again, they use a 3 group LaMarzocco, so dbl boiler, tons of dry steam but they are using a 4 hole tip frothing the milk in 12 ounce pitcher, enough for one conventional sized cappuchino (5.5 ounces)with maybe some spare milk leftover. I aksed if I could get a close up look at her technique to which she replied yes so I hung my head as close as I could get to see what was going on from my side of the counter
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > It took no more than 10 seconds from start to finish for her to froth what I would call very good creamy microfoam. The tip of the wand starts out on top and moves it's way down to roll the milk after it hits 100 degrees (she verified temps). I should qualify their experience. The owner sends his staff to Chicago to be trained by Intelligentsia (their roaster) periodically
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Needless to say, I was inspired with how their milk turns out so I thought I'd go home and pull the 2 hole tip out of the drawer and retire the one hole tip for a bit. It's a work in progress. I think it's time for me to sit down (figuratively) with a gallon of milk and work on frothing with this two hole tip and the 12 ounce pitcher. I've had some decent results the half dozen or so times I've used the two holer but clearly I need to work on technique.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > BTW, I was drinking double ristretto washed yirg (kurimi) caps at Volta, sans sweetner. Quite enjoyable to taste someone else's shots for a change but I still prefer to pull my own at home
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Jake
                      > > Reddick Fla.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Harmon" <Texas_Coffee@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Glad to see you sacrificing for the team Ed! ;-)
                      > > >
                      > > > I had a Nuova Simonelli Oscar with a 4-hole tip. That tip put out SO much steam it's blow all the milk out of a 20 oz jug if you cracked the valve wide-open! I used to stuff toothpicks into two of the holes just to keep from scalding myself. I also had a La Cimbali with a one-hole tip that didn't let enough out, so I ended up drilling the hole out for more steam.
                      > > >
                      > > > Tex
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com, ed benton <edward09603@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > OK after reading this discussion I decided to try my two hole tip that came with my machine I bought back in 1995 (new).  It was still in the little plastic bag it was delivered in.  When we set up our coffee house we went straight to the four hole tip which did well.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Fast forward to this morning.  I read your posts on the 2 or 4 hole and decide to dig the 2 hole out. 
                      > > > >
                      > > > > da da dummmmm.  I frothed milk so thick you could float a brick on it.   I could carve things in this foam.  Where was this discussion group 14 years ago? 
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Regardless many new cups of cappuccinos and machiatos to be made to confirm this new phenomena.  The research will be grueling and painful, but I do it for the children.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Happy 4th,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Ed Benton
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ________________________________
                      > > > > From: Jake Wilson <sh8knj8k@>
                      > > > > To: BUG-is-Bunn@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2009 1:49:13 AM
                      > > > > Subject: [BUG] Re: 4 Hole Steam Tip Test on my ES-1A
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In BUG-is-Bunn@ yahoogroups. com, "dmankin" <david.mankin@ ...> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > On my recent visit to Houston, Tex handed me a 4-hole steam tip to try on my ES-1A. I have tried it several times, and am now starting to formulate some thoughts on using it.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > The stock tip has only 2 holes, and the volume of steam released is substantially greater (I don't know how the actual steam holes measure from tip to tip). The extra 'umph' is creating large bubbles rather quickly, and I have to work at dissipating them - both in the incorporating (after stretching) stage, or by banging the pitcher.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Still, the 4 hole tip works.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > http://snipurl. com/4holetest1
                      > > > > > Excuse the latte art pour. I'm not that good at this under normal conditions, and the tripod was literally under my feet & arms as I tried to do all this in the lens' sight.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I plan to thoroughly clean & remount the 2 hole tip after I've played a little more with the loaner 4-hole, and see which of the 2 I prefer.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Have a good 4th of July to all the USA members!
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Cheers,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > David
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ~~~~FWIW, When I first recieved my Salvatore One Black in early April, that 1.5 litre boiler hx machine was shipped with a 2 hole and a one hole steam wand tip. Salvatore shipped it with the 2 hole tip installed and I used it a few times and didn't care for how much steam came out into the milk. It seemed to steam the milk too fast. What it wasn't doing, it wasn't creating much microfoam so I switched to the one hole tip and with a little practice and experimentation, I was able to create the amount of microfoam I like using the one hole tip.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Definetley, less holes in the steam tip on any size boiler will allow one to be able stretch the milk better (IMO). it takes more time though. For instance, with the two hole tip, I can get my milk up to 150 degrees before the shot is pulled like in your video David, and when I use the one hole tip I start frothing the milk before pulling the shot. When the milk hits 100 degrees (end of stretching phase)-that' s when I start the shot and the milk will hit 150 about the time the shot is finished (25 seconds or thereabouts) . Again, I'm working with a 1.5 litre boiler so none of what I'm doing can compare with the ES-1A. I should also mention I'm using a 20 ounce pitcher starting out with around 6 ounces of cold whole milk
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Recently I had a cappuchino in a cafe in Gainesville that uses a 3 group LaMarzocco. When the barista stretched the milk she used a 12 ounce pitcher, & T.G. Lee whole milk. I didn't see what kind of tip they were using, nor did I see where the tip was in relation to the surface of the milk but the milk was stretched w/o a sound, and to say the microfoam was perfect was an understatement, as was the double ristretta black cat cappucchino (Intelligentsia is their roaster). Was also a pleasure to watch how much steam came out of the steam wand when the barista cleared the steam wand...a whole lotta steam
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Back to my humble machine frothing milk at home... lately I have been having trouble getting good microfoam (quantity). I'm convinced it's the milk. It changed with a new gallon, and when the last of that gallon of milk was gone, the quantity improved but is still off in this new gallon of milk. I'm thinking both gallon containers of milk have higher milk fat content, but this latest gallon has less milk fat than the one before it. Both containers had different pull dates
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Jake
                      > > > > Reddick Fla.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
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