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Re: [BPQ32] 9600 baud packet instability

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  • Bob Unger
    Jerry, I am gloing to put some jupdates to this and get it back to you asap.  hope it works better.... 73 de Bob ________________________________ From: Jerry
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 15, 2012
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      Jerry, I am gloing to put some jupdates to this and get it back to you asap.  hope it works better....
       
      73 de Bob

      From: Jerry <n9lya@...>
      To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 5:39 PM
      Subject: RE: [BPQ32] 9600 baud packet instability
       
      Ill look yours over more in morning… But here are mine I use a KPC9612 as well mine feeds an Icom 38A
       
      Have you adjusted your TX audio and equalization in the TNC…??? 73 Jerry N9LYA
       
      PORT                                     ; 220 Meter Emcom FREQ.
      PORTNUM=9                    ; Optional but sets port number if stated
      ID=9600 223.600 MHz    ; Displayed by PORTS command
      TYPE=ASYNC                     ; Port is RS232 Com
      PROTOCOL=KISS                             ; TNC is used in KISS mode
      FULLDUP=0                       ; Only meaningful for KISS devices
      IOADDR=C                         ; 1 = SERIAL PORT COM1 ETC.
      SPEED=9600                      ; RS232 COM PORT SPEED
      CHANNEL=B                      ; A for single channel TNC, A or B for multichannel
      PERSIST=64                        ; PERSIST=256/(# of transmitters-1)
      SLOTTIME=100                 ; CMSA interval timer in milliseconds
      TXDELAY=300                    ; Transmit keyup delay in milliseconds
      TXTAIL=0                            ; TX key down, in milliseconds, at packet end;
      QUALITY=192                    ; Quality factor applied to node broadcasts heard on
                                                      ; this port, unless overridden by a locked route
                                                      ; entry. Setting to 0 stops node broadcasts
      MINQUAL=95                   ; Entries in the nodes table with qualities greater or
                                                      ; equal to MINQUAL will be sent on this port. A value
                                                      ; of 0 sends everything.
      MAXFRAME=2                 ; Max outstanding frames (1 thru 7)
      FRACK=5000                      ; Level 2 timout in milliseconds
      RESPTIME=1000                               ; Level 2 delayed ack timer in milliseconds
      RETRIES=10                        ; Level 2 maximum retry value
      PACLEN=236                     ; Default max packet length for this port
      UNPROTO=Nodes:                         ; BTEXT broadcast addrs format: DEST[,digi1[,digi2]]
      BCALL=n9lya-7                 ; BTEXT call. unstated defaults to APPL1CALL
      L3ONLY=0                           ; 1=No user downlink connects on this port
      DIGIFLAG=1                      ; Digipeat: 0=OFF, 1=ALL, 255=UI Only
      DIGIPORT=0                      ; Port on which to send digi'd frames (0 = same port)
      USERS=0                             ; Maximum number of L2 sessions, 0 = no limit
      WL2KREPORT PUBLIC, http://www.winlink.org/, 8778, K9BBS-10, EM68SR, 00-23, 223600000, PKT9600, 65, 35, 5, 0
      ENDPORT
       
      From: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BPQ32@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of k1jtc
      Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 5:32 PM
      To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [BPQ32] 9600 baud packet instability
       
       
      We are having problems with consistent connects using outpost. When using hyperterminal it connects better but still retries muliple times. Below are the settings that I have in the config file. I am using a kantronics 9612. Any suggestions to make it more stable would be greatly appreciated.

      PORT
      PORTNUM=1 ; Optional but sets port number if stated
      ID=BBS 223.520 MHz ; Displayed by PORTS command
      TYPE=ASYNC ; Port is RS232 Com
      PROTOCOL=KISS ; TNC is used in KISS (or JKISS) mode
      ; See ..\RelatedFiles\KissRoms\KissRoms.zip.
      FULLDUP=0 ; Only meaningful for KISS (or JKISS) devices
      IOADDR=1 ; 1 = SERIAL PORT COM1 ETC.
      SPEED=9600 ; RS232 COM PORT SPEED
      CHANNEL=B ; A for single channel TNC, A or B for multichannel
      PERSIST=64 ; PERSIST=256/(# of transmitters-1)
      SLOTTIME=50 ; CMSA interval timer in milliseconds
      TXDELAY=300 ; Transmit keyup delay in milliseconds
      TXTAIL=30 ; TX key down, in milliseconds, at packet end
      QUALITY=125 ; Quality factor applied to node broadcasts heard on
      ; this port, unless overridden by a locked route
      ; entry. Setting to 0 stops node broadcasts
      MINQUAL=0 ; Entries in the nodes table with qualities greater or
      ; equal to MINQUAL will be sent on this port. A value
      ; of 0 sends everything.
      MAXFRAME=4 ; Max outstanding frames (1 thru 7)
      FRACK=5000 ; Level 2 timout in milliseconds
      RESPTIME=1000 ; Level 2 delayed ack timer in milliseconds
      RETRIES=5 ; Level 2 maximum retry value
      PACLEN=125 ; Default max packet length for this port
      UNPROTO=ANTBBS ; BTEXT broadcast addrs format: DEST[,digi1[,digi2]]
      BCALL=K1JTC-10 ; BTEXT call. unstated defaults to APPL1CALL
      L3ONLY=0 ; 1=No user downlink connects on this port
      DIGIFLAG=1 ; Digipeat: 0=OFF, 1=ALL, 255=UI Only
      DIGIPORT=0 ; Port on which to send digi'd frames (0 = same port)
      USERS=0 ; Maximum number of L2 sessions, 0 = no limit
      ENDPORT
    • k1jtc
      Anyone try using the Yaesu ftm-350ar rig for 9600 baud?
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 15, 2012
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        Anyone try using the Yaesu ftm-350ar rig for 9600 baud?

        --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mmelnik1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Yes the Mic. Plus will work for AFSK, but not FSK (9600 Baud)
        >
        > Mike N9PMO
        > www.n9pmo.com
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BPQ32@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        > N9ACQ
        > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:15 PM
        > To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [BPQ32] Re: 9600 baud packet instability
        >
        >  
        > Mike
        >                 Mic plugs work for 1200. I used a TR-7930 for years that
        > way.  One suggestion for TNC connections to 6 pin mini-din. Use the 9600
        > baud pin and set radio t0 9600 capability. Then radio is useable for
        > either 1200 or 9600 without changes.
        > 73 Bill
        > N9ACQ
        >
      • Rick Nicholson
        I agree totally, I ve had the Dr235t in operation for a year and found its performance on 9.6k nominal and unreliable as a backbone, During heavy use the
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 16, 2012
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          I agree totally, I've had the Dr235t in operation for a year and found its performance on 9.6k nominal and unreliable as a backbone, 
          During heavy use the dr235t will distort the packets to the points they cannot be decoded even at short distances. 



          I've found that the Tait  8105 a much better choice for a backbone transceiver. 
          Ive been using the Tait's  for repeater linking and remote voter sites for several years, after months of testing numerous commercial brands the Tait out performs them all and we will be changing out the Dr235t for the Tait after the first of the year. 
           
          I'm hoping others in Indiana will realize the issues with the Dr235t and standardize with the Tait for the 220 backbone.

          Rick/ n9umj



          Sent from my iPhone

          On Nov 15, 2012, at 8:17 AM, "Jeff - WA4ZKO" <wa4zko@...> wrote:

           

          Alinco DR-235's are very marginal radios for 9.6k. The ARRL Lab BER testing for them reveals the problem.

          You can probably pull your PACLEN back to 64 or 32 and see a small improvement in terms of retries at a cost of reduced throughput. You might do a bit better with a TNC that uses a true G3RUH modem, but I suspect you are fighting an uphill battle with a marginal radio for 9.6k (regardless of how it's advertised).

          The DR-235 (and DR-435) rigs are good for 1200 baud, but horrid for 9600 baud. If this is a backbone link (no users) you will do far better just running 1200 baud and opening up the parms (paclen, maxframe, ect).

          As others have said deviation is important, but unless you are using older or modified radios with "wider" filters you will probably find the 9.6k sweet spot on newer gear is around 2.8KHz peak deviation. Make sure your meter can show/measure peak deviation.

          73
          Jeff
          WA4ZKO
          "Packet Radio never died, it just evolved."
          http://twitter.com/wa4zko

          --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, "k1jtc" <jeffrey.t.clark@...> wrote:
          >
          > Rather than reply to all I will post all replies here. I am running alinco 235. I have 2 radios sitting in the same room. From what I understand the KPC 9612 only supports 9600 baud on the com port so that is the highest speed to go to the computer. Am I wrong? S meter readings are full scale in the room as well as when I try across the city. The radios are identical except the one that is not hooked to the bbs has the internal tnc option.
          >
          > --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, "N9ACQ" <n9acq@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Jeff
          > >
          > > The biggest problem with 9600 is deviation. Both ends should
          > > be around 3 Khz. 9600 also need to bypass all audio amplifiers and filters
          > > on both transmit and receive. A deviation meter really is needed to set the
          > > proper audio level to the radio. The other thing is what is the S meter
          > > reading on receive?
          > >
          > > 73 Bill
          > >
          > > N9ACQ
          > >
          >

        • Bill Vodall
          ... Is that with the built in 9k6 TNC or a good external TNC like the PK96? Thanks, Bill - WA7NWP
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 16, 2012
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            > I agree totally, I've had the Dr235t in operation for a year and found its
            > performance on 9.6k nominal and unreliable as a backbone,
            > During heavy use the dr235t will distort the packets to the points they
            > cannot be decoded even at short distances.

            Is that with the built in 9k6 TNC or a "good" external TNC like the PK96?

            Thanks,
            Bill - WA7NWP
          • Jeff - WA4ZKO
            My experience is the modem in the PK-96 and the 9612 TNCs perform the same. Neither are true G3RUH modems, but both work well with a good 9.6k radio. Best TNC
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 16, 2012
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              My experience is the modem in the PK-96 and the 9612 TNCs perform the same. Neither are true G3RUH modems, but both work well with a good 9.6k radio.

              Best TNC in the world can't make up for BER specs like these, especially when you start off listening to a TX BER that bad.
              (DR-235 BER data per ARRL Lab results)

              Receiver:
              BER at 12-dB SINAD, 3.8×10–3
              BER at 16 dB SINAD, 1.4×10–4
              BER at –50 dBm, 2.4×10–5
              transmitter:
              BER at 12-dB SINAD + 30 dB, 3.4×10–4

              Pretty decent TXDelay, but the RX/TX BER is the problem.

              Good to know there's a usable commercial "off-the-shelf 220 radio out there with the Tait rigs.

              Be nice if the ARRL would get back to publishing BER Test data on the newer rigs. Then maybe crack down on manufacturers advertising rigs as "9600 ready" if they don't meet a minimal BER spec.


              73
              Jeff
              WA4ZKO
              "Packet Radio never died, it just evolved."
              http://twitter.com/wa4zko

              --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, Bill Vodall <wa7nwp@...> wrote:
              >
              > > I agree totally, I've had the Dr235t in operation for a year and found its
              > > performance on 9.6k nominal and unreliable as a backbone,
              > > During heavy use the dr235t will distort the packets to the points they
              > > cannot be decoded even at short distances.
              >
              > Is that with the built in 9k6 TNC or a "good" external TNC like the PK96?
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Bill - WA7NWP
              >
            • Bill Vodall
              ... What numbers would a good radio have? 1x10-6? Thanks, Bill
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 16, 2012
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                > (DR-235 BER data per ARRL Lab results)
                >
                > Receiver:
                > BER at 12-dB SINAD, 3.8×10–3
                > BER at 16 dB SINAD, 1.4×10–4
                > BER at –50 dBm, 2.4×10–5
                > transmitter:
                > BER at 12-dB SINAD + 30 dB, 3.4×10–4

                What numbers would a good radio have? 1x10-6?

                Thanks,
                Bill
              • PE1RDW
                ... probably 0 but the only radio I ever found that has that is a converted analog cell phone like nokia morbia -- 73 Andre PE1RDW
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 16, 2012
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                  On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 21:15:32 +0100, Bill Vodall <wa7nwp@...> wrote:

                  >> (DR-235 BER data per ARRL Lab results)
                  >>
                  >> Receiver:
                  >> BER at 12-dB SINAD, 3.8×10–3
                  >> BER at 16 dB SINAD, 1.4×10–4
                  >> BER at –50 dBm, 2.4×10–5
                  >> transmitter:
                  >> BER at 12-dB SINAD + 30 dB, 3.4×10–4
                  >
                  > What numbers would a good radio have? 1x10-6?
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  > Bill
                  >
                  probably 0 but the only radio I ever found that has that is a converted
                  analog cell phone like nokia morbia

                  --
                  73 Andre PE1RDW
                • Jeff - WA4ZKO
                  1.0x10-5 (or better) is good benchmark to look for on the RX BER at –50 dBm test and the TX BER at 12-dB SINAD+30 dB test. If a radio can t perform well at
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 16, 2012
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                    1.0x10-5 (or better) is good benchmark to look for on the RX BER at –50 dBm test and the TX "BER at 12-dB SINAD+30 dB" test. If a radio can't perform well at those levels then good luck with it on the 9.6k airwaves.

                    http://wx4j.com/Radio-TNC9600bInfoC.htm

                    A really good article by KE3Z in the May 1995 QST goes into BER testing details and what makes a good 9600 baud radio (or not). Unfortunately I don't think it's openly available on the internet.
                    I might check to see if the ARRL would allow me to PDF it and post it publicly if there is enough interest.


                    73
                    Jeff
                    WA4ZKO
                    "Packet Radio never died, it just evolved."
                    http://twitter.com/wa4zko

                    --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, Bill Vodall <wa7nwp@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > (DR-235 BER data per ARRL Lab results)
                    > >
                    > > Receiver:
                    > > BER at 12-dB SINAD, 3.8×10–3
                    > > BER at 16 dB SINAD, 1.4×10–4
                    > > BER at –50 dBm, 2.4×10–5
                    > > transmitter:
                    > > BER at 12-dB SINAD + 30 dB, 3.4×10–4
                    >
                    > What numbers would a good radio have? 1x10-6?
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    > Bill
                    >
                  • Bill Vodall
                    Thank you Jeff.. That s good info to keep on had. Bill
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 16, 2012
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                      Thank you Jeff.. That's good info to keep on had.

                      Bill

                      > 1.0x10-5 (or better) is good benchmark to look for on the RX BER at –50
                      > dBm test and the TX "BER at 12-dB SINAD+30 dB" test. If a radio can't
                      > perform well at those levels then good luck with it on the 9.6k airwaves.
                      >
                      > http://wx4j.com/Radio-TNC9600bInfoC.htm
                    • Rick Nicholson
                      That was with a Kantronics KPC-9612 and on a Timewave DSP-232USB. Rick/n9umj Sent from my iPhone
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 16, 2012
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                        That was with a Kantronics KPC-9612 and on a Timewave DSP-232USB. 

                        Rick/n9umj


                        Sent from my iPhone

                        On Nov 16, 2012, at 11:31 AM, Bill Vodall <wa7nwp@...> wrote:

                         

                        > I agree totally, I've had the Dr235t in operation for a year and found its
                        > performance on 9.6k nominal and unreliable as a backbone,
                        > During heavy use the dr235t will distort the packets to the points they
                        > cannot be decoded even at short distances.

                        Is that with the built in 9k6 TNC or a "good" external TNC like the PK96?

                        Thanks,
                        Bill - WA7NWP

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