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RE: [BPQ32] Re: 9600 baud packet instability

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  • N9ACQ
    Jeff Comport can go to 19.3 K. What is the deviation, this is critical. 73 Bill N9ACQ
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 14, 2012
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      Jeff

                      Comport can go to 19.3 K. What is the deviation, this is critical.

      73 Bill

      N9ACQ

    • Jim
      Yes deviation and modulation acceptance in the receiver is another determining factor. In other words if you can not receive what is the use! With the g3ruh
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 15, 2012
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        Yes deviation and modulation acceptance in the receiver is another determining factor. In other words if you can not receive what is the use!

        With the g3ruh modems there is a procedure of setting deviation and measuring the time between dropped rx packets. If you can find some with a 2 way radio shop maybe he can help you I bought a Agilent 8924C a few years back that works well for this it was a cell phone test box but also has analog test functions and will measure SINAD directly on a monitor screen. 

        I connected the radios in pairs and terminated the tx and tx units and found my best deviation was around 2.7khz. That was with GE delta radios. I ran a system from Pensacola to Dickenson tax and it would do a ping in 3 seconds. 

        Jim 
        Sent from my iPhone

        On Nov 14, 2012, at 17:51, "N9ACQ" <n9acq@...> wrote:

         

        Jeff

                        The biggest problem with 9600 is deviation. Both ends should be around 3 Khz. 9600 also need to bypass all audio amplifiers and filters on both transmit and receive. A deviation meter really is needed to set the proper audio level to the radio. The other thing is what is the S meter reading on receive?

        73 Bill

        N9ACQ

      • Jeff - WA4ZKO
        Alinco DR-235 s are very marginal radios for 9.6k. The ARRL Lab BER testing for them reveals the problem. You can probably pull your PACLEN back to 64 or 32
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 15, 2012
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          Alinco DR-235's are very marginal radios for 9.6k. The ARRL Lab BER testing for them reveals the problem.

          You can probably pull your PACLEN back to 64 or 32 and see a small improvement in terms of retries at a cost of reduced throughput. You might do a bit better with a TNC that uses a true G3RUH modem, but I suspect you are fighting an uphill battle with a marginal radio for 9.6k (regardless of how it's advertised).

          The DR-235 (and DR-435) rigs are good for 1200 baud, but horrid for 9600 baud. If this is a backbone link (no users) you will do far better just running 1200 baud and opening up the parms (paclen, maxframe, ect).

          As others have said deviation is important, but unless you are using older or modified radios with "wider" filters you will probably find the 9.6k sweet spot on newer gear is around 2.8KHz peak deviation. Make sure your meter can show/measure peak deviation.


          73
          Jeff
          WA4ZKO
          "Packet Radio never died, it just evolved."
          http://twitter.com/wa4zko


          --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, "k1jtc" <jeffrey.t.clark@...> wrote:
          >
          > Rather than reply to all I will post all replies here. I am running alinco 235. I have 2 radios sitting in the same room. From what I understand the KPC 9612 only supports 9600 baud on the com port so that is the highest speed to go to the computer. Am I wrong? S meter readings are full scale in the room as well as when I try across the city. The radios are identical except the one that is not hooked to the bbs has the internal tnc option.
          >
          > --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, "N9ACQ" <n9acq@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Jeff
          > >
          > > The biggest problem with 9600 is deviation. Both ends should
          > > be around 3 Khz. 9600 also need to bypass all audio amplifiers and filters
          > > on both transmit and receive. A deviation meter really is needed to set the
          > > proper audio level to the radio. The other thing is what is the S meter
          > > reading on receive?
          > >
          > > 73 Bill
          > >
          > > N9ACQ
          > >
          >
        • k1jtc
          What rig or rigs are people using for 9600 packet?
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 15, 2012
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            What rig or rigs are people using for 9600 packet?

            --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff - WA4ZKO" <wa4zko@...> wrote:
            >
            > Alinco DR-235's are very marginal radios for 9.6k. The ARRL Lab BER testing for them reveals the problem.
            >
            > You can probably pull your PACLEN back to 64 or 32 and see a small improvement in terms of retries at a cost of reduced throughput. You might do a bit better with a TNC that uses a true G3RUH modem, but I suspect you are fighting an uphill battle with a marginal radio for 9.6k (regardless of how it's advertised).
            >
            > The DR-235 (and DR-435) rigs are good for 1200 baud, but horrid for 9600 baud. If this is a backbone link (no users) you will do far better just running 1200 baud and opening up the parms (paclen, maxframe, ect).
            >
            > As others have said deviation is important, but unless you are using older or modified radios with "wider" filters you will probably find the 9.6k sweet spot on newer gear is around 2.8KHz peak deviation. Make sure your meter can show/measure peak deviation.
            >
            >
            > 73
            > Jeff
            > WA4ZKO
            > "Packet Radio never died, it just evolved."
            > http://twitter.com/wa4zko
            >
            >
            > --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, "k1jtc" <jeffrey.t.clark@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Rather than reply to all I will post all replies here. I am running alinco 235. I have 2 radios sitting in the same room. From what I understand the KPC 9612 only supports 9600 baud on the com port so that is the highest speed to go to the computer. Am I wrong? S meter readings are full scale in the room as well as when I try across the city. The radios are identical except the one that is not hooked to the bbs has the internal tnc option.
            > >
            > > --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, "N9ACQ" <n9acq@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Jeff
            > > >
            > > > The biggest problem with 9600 is deviation. Both ends should
            > > > be around 3 Khz. 9600 also need to bypass all audio amplifiers and filters
            > > > on both transmit and receive. A deviation meter really is needed to set the
            > > > proper audio level to the radio. The other thing is what is the S meter
            > > > reading on receive?
            > > >
            > > > 73 Bill
            > > >
            > > > N9ACQ
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • N9ACQ
            Jeff No problems with the following Kenwood mobile units, G-707, V-7, V71, D700 and D710. I am sure that many others are also usable at 9600 but I am not
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 15, 2012
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              Jeff

                              No problems with the following Kenwood mobile units, G-707, V-7, V71, D700 and D710. I am sure that many others are also usable at 9600 but I am not familiar with them.

              73 Bill

              N9ACQ

            • Mike
              I use a Kantronics 9612 with a 19200 Baud serial link, the serial link must be Higher then the Radio speed. I modified a Motorola Syntor UHF 55 watt radio for
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 15, 2012
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                I use a Kantronics 9612 with a 19200 Baud serial link, the serial link
                must be
                Higher then the Radio speed.

                I modified a Motorola Syntor UHF 55 watt radio for 9600 BUAD
                Paclen 236, Maxframe 2, Frack 3000, response 1000, TXD 150

                Many radios that claim to be 9600 BUAD have a very slow turn around time
                TX/RX many are higher then 300ms Alinco happens to be one of those
                radios

                The only radio I have seen with a good turn around time is the Kenwood
                2K
                It is always good idea to look at the ARRL test specs.

                The data cable usually has one connection for 1200 Baud and 1 for 9600
                Baud,
                As well as the radio settings, the radio needs to have a very flat
                response
                For FSK transmission, do not use the Mic plug as a FSK connection
                It will never work.

                Hope this is some help.

                73

                Mike N9PMO
                BPQ32 Group Moderator
                www.n9pmo.com
                -----Original Message-----
                From: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BPQ32@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                k1jtc
                Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 12:30 PM
                To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [BPQ32] Re: 9600 baud packet instability

                 
                What rig or rigs are people using for 9600 packet?

                --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff - WA4ZKO" <wa4zko@...> wrote:
                >
                > Alinco DR-235's are very marginal radios for 9.6k. The ARRL Lab BER
                testing for them reveals the problem.
                >
                > You can probably pull your PACLEN back to 64 or 32 and see a small
                improvement in terms of retries at a cost of reduced throughput. You
                might do a bit better with a TNC that uses a true G3RUH modem, but I
                suspect you are fighting an uphill battle with a marginal radio for 9.6k
                (regardless of how it's advertised).
                >
                > The DR-235 (and DR-435) rigs are good for 1200 baud, but horrid for
                9600 baud. If this is a backbone link (no users) you will do far better
                just running 1200 baud and opening up the parms (paclen, maxframe, ect).
                >
                > As others have said deviation is important, but unless you are using
                older or modified radios with "wider" filters you will probably find the
                9.6k sweet spot on newer gear is around 2.8KHz peak deviation. Make sure
                your meter can show/measure peak deviation.
                >
                >
                > 73
                > Jeff
                > WA4ZKO
                > "Packet Radio never died, it just evolved."
                > http://twitter.com/wa4zko
                >
                >
                > --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, "k1jtc" <jeffrey.t.clark@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Rather than reply to all I will post all replies here. I am running
                alinco 235. I have 2 radios sitting in the same room. From what I
                understand the KPC 9612 only supports 9600 baud on the com port so that
                is the highest speed to go to the computer. Am I wrong? S meter readings
                are full scale in the room as well as when I try across the city. The
                radios are identical except the one that is not hooked to the bbs has
                the internal tnc option.
                > >
                > > --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, "N9ACQ" <n9acq@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Jeff
                > > >
                > > > The biggest problem with 9600 is deviation. Both ends should
                > > > be around 3 Khz. 9600 also need to bypass all audio amplifiers and
                filters
                > > > on both transmit and receive. A deviation meter really is needed
                to set the
                > > > proper audio level to the radio. The other thing is what is the S
                meter
                > > > reading on receive?
                > > >
                > > > 73 Bill
                > > >
                > > > N9ACQ
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • N9ACQ
                Mike Mic plugs work for 1200. I used a TR-7930 for years that way. One suggestion for TNC connections to 6 pin mini-din. Use the 9600 baud pin and set radio
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 15, 2012
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                  Mike

                                  Mic plugs work for 1200. I used a TR-7930 for years that way.  One suggestion for TNC connections to 6 pin mini-din. Use the 9600 baud pin and set radio t0 9600 capability. Then radio is useable for either 1200 or 9600 without changes.

                  73 Bill

                  N9ACQ

                • Mike
                  Yes the Mic. Plus will work for AFSK, but not FSK (9600 Baud) Mike N9PMO www.n9pmo.com ... From: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BPQ32@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 15, 2012
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                    Yes the Mic. Plus will work for AFSK, but not FSK (9600 Baud)

                    Mike N9PMO
                    www.n9pmo.com
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BPQ32@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    N9ACQ
                    Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:15 PM
                    To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [BPQ32] Re: 9600 baud packet instability

                     
                    Mike
                                    Mic plugs work for 1200. I used a TR-7930 for years that
                    way.  One suggestion for TNC connections to 6 pin mini-din. Use the 9600
                    baud pin and set radio t0 9600 capability. Then radio is useable for
                    either 1200 or 9600 without changes.
                    73 Bill
                    N9ACQ
                  • Bob Unger
                    Jerry, I am gloing to put some jupdates to this and get it back to you asap.  hope it works better.... 73 de Bob ________________________________ From: Jerry
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 15, 2012
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                      Jerry, I am gloing to put some jupdates to this and get it back to you asap.  hope it works better....
                       
                      73 de Bob

                      From: Jerry <n9lya@...>
                      To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 5:39 PM
                      Subject: RE: [BPQ32] 9600 baud packet instability
                       
                      Ill look yours over more in morning… But here are mine I use a KPC9612 as well mine feeds an Icom 38A
                       
                      Have you adjusted your TX audio and equalization in the TNC…??? 73 Jerry N9LYA
                       
                      PORT                                     ; 220 Meter Emcom FREQ.
                      PORTNUM=9                    ; Optional but sets port number if stated
                      ID=9600 223.600 MHz    ; Displayed by PORTS command
                      TYPE=ASYNC                     ; Port is RS232 Com
                      PROTOCOL=KISS                             ; TNC is used in KISS mode
                      FULLDUP=0                       ; Only meaningful for KISS devices
                      IOADDR=C                         ; 1 = SERIAL PORT COM1 ETC.
                      SPEED=9600                      ; RS232 COM PORT SPEED
                      CHANNEL=B                      ; A for single channel TNC, A or B for multichannel
                      PERSIST=64                        ; PERSIST=256/(# of transmitters-1)
                      SLOTTIME=100                 ; CMSA interval timer in milliseconds
                      TXDELAY=300                    ; Transmit keyup delay in milliseconds
                      TXTAIL=0                            ; TX key down, in milliseconds, at packet end;
                      QUALITY=192                    ; Quality factor applied to node broadcasts heard on
                                                                      ; this port, unless overridden by a locked route
                                                                      ; entry. Setting to 0 stops node broadcasts
                      MINQUAL=95                   ; Entries in the nodes table with qualities greater or
                                                                      ; equal to MINQUAL will be sent on this port. A value
                                                                      ; of 0 sends everything.
                      MAXFRAME=2                 ; Max outstanding frames (1 thru 7)
                      FRACK=5000                      ; Level 2 timout in milliseconds
                      RESPTIME=1000                               ; Level 2 delayed ack timer in milliseconds
                      RETRIES=10                        ; Level 2 maximum retry value
                      PACLEN=236                     ; Default max packet length for this port
                      UNPROTO=Nodes:                         ; BTEXT broadcast addrs format: DEST[,digi1[,digi2]]
                      BCALL=n9lya-7                 ; BTEXT call. unstated defaults to APPL1CALL
                      L3ONLY=0                           ; 1=No user downlink connects on this port
                      DIGIFLAG=1                      ; Digipeat: 0=OFF, 1=ALL, 255=UI Only
                      DIGIPORT=0                      ; Port on which to send digi'd frames (0 = same port)
                      USERS=0                             ; Maximum number of L2 sessions, 0 = no limit
                      WL2KREPORT PUBLIC, http://www.winlink.org/, 8778, K9BBS-10, EM68SR, 00-23, 223600000, PKT9600, 65, 35, 5, 0
                      ENDPORT
                       
                      From: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BPQ32@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of k1jtc
                      Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 5:32 PM
                      To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [BPQ32] 9600 baud packet instability
                       
                       
                      We are having problems with consistent connects using outpost. When using hyperterminal it connects better but still retries muliple times. Below are the settings that I have in the config file. I am using a kantronics 9612. Any suggestions to make it more stable would be greatly appreciated.

                      PORT
                      PORTNUM=1 ; Optional but sets port number if stated
                      ID=BBS 223.520 MHz ; Displayed by PORTS command
                      TYPE=ASYNC ; Port is RS232 Com
                      PROTOCOL=KISS ; TNC is used in KISS (or JKISS) mode
                      ; See ..\RelatedFiles\KissRoms\KissRoms.zip.
                      FULLDUP=0 ; Only meaningful for KISS (or JKISS) devices
                      IOADDR=1 ; 1 = SERIAL PORT COM1 ETC.
                      SPEED=9600 ; RS232 COM PORT SPEED
                      CHANNEL=B ; A for single channel TNC, A or B for multichannel
                      PERSIST=64 ; PERSIST=256/(# of transmitters-1)
                      SLOTTIME=50 ; CMSA interval timer in milliseconds
                      TXDELAY=300 ; Transmit keyup delay in milliseconds
                      TXTAIL=30 ; TX key down, in milliseconds, at packet end
                      QUALITY=125 ; Quality factor applied to node broadcasts heard on
                      ; this port, unless overridden by a locked route
                      ; entry. Setting to 0 stops node broadcasts
                      MINQUAL=0 ; Entries in the nodes table with qualities greater or
                      ; equal to MINQUAL will be sent on this port. A value
                      ; of 0 sends everything.
                      MAXFRAME=4 ; Max outstanding frames (1 thru 7)
                      FRACK=5000 ; Level 2 timout in milliseconds
                      RESPTIME=1000 ; Level 2 delayed ack timer in milliseconds
                      RETRIES=5 ; Level 2 maximum retry value
                      PACLEN=125 ; Default max packet length for this port
                      UNPROTO=ANTBBS ; BTEXT broadcast addrs format: DEST[,digi1[,digi2]]
                      BCALL=K1JTC-10 ; BTEXT call. unstated defaults to APPL1CALL
                      L3ONLY=0 ; 1=No user downlink connects on this port
                      DIGIFLAG=1 ; Digipeat: 0=OFF, 1=ALL, 255=UI Only
                      DIGIPORT=0 ; Port on which to send digi'd frames (0 = same port)
                      USERS=0 ; Maximum number of L2 sessions, 0 = no limit
                      ENDPORT
                    • k1jtc
                      Anyone try using the Yaesu ftm-350ar rig for 9600 baud?
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 15, 2012
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                        Anyone try using the Yaesu ftm-350ar rig for 9600 baud?

                        --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mmelnik1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Yes the Mic. Plus will work for AFSK, but not FSK (9600 Baud)
                        >
                        > Mike N9PMO
                        > www.n9pmo.com
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BPQ32@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        > N9ACQ
                        > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:15 PM
                        > To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: RE: [BPQ32] Re: 9600 baud packet instability
                        >
                        >  
                        > Mike
                        >                 Mic plugs work for 1200. I used a TR-7930 for years that
                        > way.  One suggestion for TNC connections to 6 pin mini-din. Use the 9600
                        > baud pin and set radio t0 9600 capability. Then radio is useable for
                        > either 1200 or 9600 without changes.
                        > 73 Bill
                        > N9ACQ
                        >
                      • Rick Nicholson
                        I agree totally, I ve had the Dr235t in operation for a year and found its performance on 9.6k nominal and unreliable as a backbone, During heavy use the
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 16, 2012
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                          I agree totally, I've had the Dr235t in operation for a year and found its performance on 9.6k nominal and unreliable as a backbone, 
                          During heavy use the dr235t will distort the packets to the points they cannot be decoded even at short distances. 



                          I've found that the Tait  8105 a much better choice for a backbone transceiver. 
                          Ive been using the Tait's  for repeater linking and remote voter sites for several years, after months of testing numerous commercial brands the Tait out performs them all and we will be changing out the Dr235t for the Tait after the first of the year. 
                           
                          I'm hoping others in Indiana will realize the issues with the Dr235t and standardize with the Tait for the 220 backbone.

                          Rick/ n9umj



                          Sent from my iPhone

                          On Nov 15, 2012, at 8:17 AM, "Jeff - WA4ZKO" <wa4zko@...> wrote:

                           

                          Alinco DR-235's are very marginal radios for 9.6k. The ARRL Lab BER testing for them reveals the problem.

                          You can probably pull your PACLEN back to 64 or 32 and see a small improvement in terms of retries at a cost of reduced throughput. You might do a bit better with a TNC that uses a true G3RUH modem, but I suspect you are fighting an uphill battle with a marginal radio for 9.6k (regardless of how it's advertised).

                          The DR-235 (and DR-435) rigs are good for 1200 baud, but horrid for 9600 baud. If this is a backbone link (no users) you will do far better just running 1200 baud and opening up the parms (paclen, maxframe, ect).

                          As others have said deviation is important, but unless you are using older or modified radios with "wider" filters you will probably find the 9.6k sweet spot on newer gear is around 2.8KHz peak deviation. Make sure your meter can show/measure peak deviation.

                          73
                          Jeff
                          WA4ZKO
                          "Packet Radio never died, it just evolved."
                          http://twitter.com/wa4zko

                          --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, "k1jtc" <jeffrey.t.clark@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Rather than reply to all I will post all replies here. I am running alinco 235. I have 2 radios sitting in the same room. From what I understand the KPC 9612 only supports 9600 baud on the com port so that is the highest speed to go to the computer. Am I wrong? S meter readings are full scale in the room as well as when I try across the city. The radios are identical except the one that is not hooked to the bbs has the internal tnc option.
                          >
                          > --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, "N9ACQ" <n9acq@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Jeff
                          > >
                          > > The biggest problem with 9600 is deviation. Both ends should
                          > > be around 3 Khz. 9600 also need to bypass all audio amplifiers and filters
                          > > on both transmit and receive. A deviation meter really is needed to set the
                          > > proper audio level to the radio. The other thing is what is the S meter
                          > > reading on receive?
                          > >
                          > > 73 Bill
                          > >
                          > > N9ACQ
                          > >
                          >

                        • Bill Vodall
                          ... Is that with the built in 9k6 TNC or a good external TNC like the PK96? Thanks, Bill - WA7NWP
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 16, 2012
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                            > I agree totally, I've had the Dr235t in operation for a year and found its
                            > performance on 9.6k nominal and unreliable as a backbone,
                            > During heavy use the dr235t will distort the packets to the points they
                            > cannot be decoded even at short distances.

                            Is that with the built in 9k6 TNC or a "good" external TNC like the PK96?

                            Thanks,
                            Bill - WA7NWP
                          • Jeff - WA4ZKO
                            My experience is the modem in the PK-96 and the 9612 TNCs perform the same. Neither are true G3RUH modems, but both work well with a good 9.6k radio. Best TNC
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 16, 2012
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                              My experience is the modem in the PK-96 and the 9612 TNCs perform the same. Neither are true G3RUH modems, but both work well with a good 9.6k radio.

                              Best TNC in the world can't make up for BER specs like these, especially when you start off listening to a TX BER that bad.
                              (DR-235 BER data per ARRL Lab results)

                              Receiver:
                              BER at 12-dB SINAD, 3.8×10–3
                              BER at 16 dB SINAD, 1.4×10–4
                              BER at –50 dBm, 2.4×10–5
                              transmitter:
                              BER at 12-dB SINAD + 30 dB, 3.4×10–4

                              Pretty decent TXDelay, but the RX/TX BER is the problem.

                              Good to know there's a usable commercial "off-the-shelf 220 radio out there with the Tait rigs.

                              Be nice if the ARRL would get back to publishing BER Test data on the newer rigs. Then maybe crack down on manufacturers advertising rigs as "9600 ready" if they don't meet a minimal BER spec.


                              73
                              Jeff
                              WA4ZKO
                              "Packet Radio never died, it just evolved."
                              http://twitter.com/wa4zko

                              --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, Bill Vodall <wa7nwp@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > I agree totally, I've had the Dr235t in operation for a year and found its
                              > > performance on 9.6k nominal and unreliable as a backbone,
                              > > During heavy use the dr235t will distort the packets to the points they
                              > > cannot be decoded even at short distances.
                              >
                              > Is that with the built in 9k6 TNC or a "good" external TNC like the PK96?
                              >
                              > Thanks,
                              > Bill - WA7NWP
                              >
                            • Bill Vodall
                              ... What numbers would a good radio have? 1x10-6? Thanks, Bill
                              Message 14 of 23 , Nov 16, 2012
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                                > (DR-235 BER data per ARRL Lab results)
                                >
                                > Receiver:
                                > BER at 12-dB SINAD, 3.8×10–3
                                > BER at 16 dB SINAD, 1.4×10–4
                                > BER at –50 dBm, 2.4×10–5
                                > transmitter:
                                > BER at 12-dB SINAD + 30 dB, 3.4×10–4

                                What numbers would a good radio have? 1x10-6?

                                Thanks,
                                Bill
                              • PE1RDW
                                ... probably 0 but the only radio I ever found that has that is a converted analog cell phone like nokia morbia -- 73 Andre PE1RDW
                                Message 15 of 23 , Nov 16, 2012
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                                  On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 21:15:32 +0100, Bill Vodall <wa7nwp@...> wrote:

                                  >> (DR-235 BER data per ARRL Lab results)
                                  >>
                                  >> Receiver:
                                  >> BER at 12-dB SINAD, 3.8×10–3
                                  >> BER at 16 dB SINAD, 1.4×10–4
                                  >> BER at –50 dBm, 2.4×10–5
                                  >> transmitter:
                                  >> BER at 12-dB SINAD + 30 dB, 3.4×10–4
                                  >
                                  > What numbers would a good radio have? 1x10-6?
                                  >
                                  > Thanks,
                                  > Bill
                                  >
                                  probably 0 but the only radio I ever found that has that is a converted
                                  analog cell phone like nokia morbia

                                  --
                                  73 Andre PE1RDW
                                • Jeff - WA4ZKO
                                  1.0x10-5 (or better) is good benchmark to look for on the RX BER at –50 dBm test and the TX BER at 12-dB SINAD+30 dB test. If a radio can t perform well at
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Nov 16, 2012
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                                    1.0x10-5 (or better) is good benchmark to look for on the RX BER at –50 dBm test and the TX "BER at 12-dB SINAD+30 dB" test. If a radio can't perform well at those levels then good luck with it on the 9.6k airwaves.

                                    http://wx4j.com/Radio-TNC9600bInfoC.htm

                                    A really good article by KE3Z in the May 1995 QST goes into BER testing details and what makes a good 9600 baud radio (or not). Unfortunately I don't think it's openly available on the internet.
                                    I might check to see if the ARRL would allow me to PDF it and post it publicly if there is enough interest.


                                    73
                                    Jeff
                                    WA4ZKO
                                    "Packet Radio never died, it just evolved."
                                    http://twitter.com/wa4zko

                                    --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, Bill Vodall <wa7nwp@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > (DR-235 BER data per ARRL Lab results)
                                    > >
                                    > > Receiver:
                                    > > BER at 12-dB SINAD, 3.8×10–3
                                    > > BER at 16 dB SINAD, 1.4×10–4
                                    > > BER at –50 dBm, 2.4×10–5
                                    > > transmitter:
                                    > > BER at 12-dB SINAD + 30 dB, 3.4×10–4
                                    >
                                    > What numbers would a good radio have? 1x10-6?
                                    >
                                    > Thanks,
                                    > Bill
                                    >
                                  • Bill Vodall
                                    Thank you Jeff.. That s good info to keep on had. Bill
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Nov 16, 2012
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                                      Thank you Jeff.. That's good info to keep on had.

                                      Bill

                                      > 1.0x10-5 (or better) is good benchmark to look for on the RX BER at –50
                                      > dBm test and the TX "BER at 12-dB SINAD+30 dB" test. If a radio can't
                                      > perform well at those levels then good luck with it on the 9.6k airwaves.
                                      >
                                      > http://wx4j.com/Radio-TNC9600bInfoC.htm
                                    • Rick Nicholson
                                      That was with a Kantronics KPC-9612 and on a Timewave DSP-232USB. Rick/n9umj Sent from my iPhone
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Nov 16, 2012
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                                        That was with a Kantronics KPC-9612 and on a Timewave DSP-232USB. 

                                        Rick/n9umj


                                        Sent from my iPhone

                                        On Nov 16, 2012, at 11:31 AM, Bill Vodall <wa7nwp@...> wrote:

                                         

                                        > I agree totally, I've had the Dr235t in operation for a year and found its
                                        > performance on 9.6k nominal and unreliable as a backbone,
                                        > During heavy use the dr235t will distort the packets to the points they
                                        > cannot be decoded even at short distances.

                                        Is that with the built in 9k6 TNC or a "good" external TNC like the PK96?

                                        Thanks,
                                        Bill - WA7NWP

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