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Re: [BPQ32] HSMM-MESH

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  • Charles Brabham
    I d be curious about what kind of range to expect, and what kind of amateur radio communications really require that much throughput. Just curious. My
    Message 1 of 30 , Jan 2, 2012
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      I'd be curious about what kind of range to expect, and what kind of amateur radio communications really require that much throughput.
       
      Just curious.
       
      My experience with HSMM to this point has been that any utility has always been far overshadowed by the hype level. HSMM generates tons of discussion - but where's the beef, over and above a short-lived, token experiment, here or there?
       
      The other thing that I have come to associate with HSMM are the attacks upon PART97 by the old ARRL HSMM group. - They were always plotting to eliminate content restrictions, bring in data encryption, and alter or eliminate any other part of PART97 that might somehow differentiate amateur radio from the internet.
       
      In this respect, one might guess that they were directly associated with TAPR.
       
      They seemed to be totally oblivious to the damage that these brilliant ideas might do the other amateurs, already doing other things. When it was pointed out, they made it very plain that they simply did not care.
       
      Perhaps that explains why there is no longer an ARRL HSMM group. - Lots of talk, precious little to show for it, attacks upon PART97, and an attitude concerning their fellow hams that brings to mind the behavior of a snapping turtle.
       
      It would be refreshing to see somebody making an attempt to use HSMM in a responsible, intelligent manner for a change. - Something that shows an ability to play well with others.
       
      Maybe this will be that attempt - but personally I have my doubts.
       
      A solution looking rather desperately for a problem, and a great time-waster?
       
      That's my call on it.
       
      73 DE CHarles, N5PVL
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 3:54 PM
      Subject: [BPQ32] HSMM-MESH

       

      to all:suggest going to WWW.HSMM-MESH.org/ to see if this is what you need for local net. Also, in yahoo groups,check out CC-HSMM-MESH. It's our local ARES grp starting to use HSMM. Scott is the area sales rep for HP,and is pretty up on computers. He recommends using Linksys WRT54GL for router,reprogrammed to 2.4 ghz.
      Saw mssg about switching between 900 mhz and back for wider coverage.That caught my attention as something that would be most useful in my area.
      call sign is N7CUD.
      email n7cud@...

    • Rick Nicholson
      I use it for voip to tower sites that have no broadband access.for use with  Echolink, IRLP, DSTAR and repeater audio linking,  remote control for
      Message 2 of 30 , Jan 2, 2012
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        I use it for voip to tower sites that have no broadband access.for use with  Echolink, IRLP, DSTAR and repeater audio linking,  remote control for controllers and repeater functions, APRS and AXIP packet gateways to name a few.  The range will vary on PHG like everything else and of course how much do you want to spend$$
         
         I have'nt looked too deep into HSMM-MESH, but from what I have seen it's not too different to what we use and it does look promising if you can get everyone on board.
         
        73's  Rick
         


        --- On Mon, 1/2/12, Charles Brabham <n5pvl@...> wrote:

        From: Charles Brabham <n5pvl@...>
        Subject: Re: [BPQ32] HSMM-MESH
        To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, January 2, 2012, 9:13 PM

         
        I'd be curious about what kind of range to expect, and what kind of amateur radio communications really require that much throughput.
         
        Just curious.
         
        My experience with HSMM to this point has been that any utility has always been far overshadowed by the hype level. HSMM generates tons of discussion - but where's the beef, over and above a short-lived, token experiment, here or there?
         
        The other thing that I have come to associate with HSMM are the attacks upon PART97 by the old ARRL HSMM group. - They were always plotting to eliminate content restrictions, bring in data encryption, and alter or eliminate any other part of PART97 that might somehow differentiate amateur radio from the internet.
         
        In this respect, one might guess that they were directly associated with TAPR.
         
        They seemed to be totally oblivious to the damage that these brilliant ideas might do the other amateurs, already doing other things. When it was pointed out, they made it very plain that they simply did not care.
         
        Perhaps that explains why there is no longer an ARRL HSMM group. - Lots of talk, precious little to show for it, attacks upon PART97, and an attitude concerning their fellow hams that brings to mind the behavior of a snapping turtle.
         
        It would be refreshing to see somebody making an attempt to use HSMM in a responsible, intelligent manner for a change. - Something that shows an ability to play well with others.
         
        Maybe this will be that attempt - but personally I have my doubts.
         
        A solution looking rather desperately for a problem, and a great time-waster?
         
        That's my call on it.
         
        73 DE CHarles, N5PVL
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 3:54 PM
        Subject: [BPQ32] HSMM-MESH

         
        to all:suggest going to WWW.HSMM-MESH.org/ to see if this is what you need for local net. Also, in yahoo groups,check out CC-HSMM-MESH. It's our local ARES grp starting to use HSMM. Scott is the area sales rep for HP,and is pretty up on computers. He recommends using Linksys WRT54GL for router,reprogrammed to 2.4 ghz.
        Saw mssg about switching between 900 mhz and back for wider coverage.That caught my attention as something that would be most useful in my area.
        call sign is N7CUD.
        email n7cud@...

      • Matthew Pitts
        Charles, I can think of a number of them; VoIP links, file sharing during emergency operations (not sure if this would actually work), and other things that
        Message 3 of 30 , Jan 2, 2012
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          Charles,

          I can think of a number of them; VoIP links, file sharing during emergency operations (not sure if this would actually work), and other things that need larger amounts of bandwidth than what current data modes can offer. Power output can be boosted with amplifiers, since the modified units operate in the 1.2GHz ham band and they can be fitted with directional antennas if needed. I'm going to be buying a few of these myself and testing them at various Emcomm events here in Ohio this year.

          Matthew Pitts
          N8OHU

          Sent from my Wireless Device
        • Bill Erhardt
          Hi Mathew, Yep, I agree. You have the right idea of experimenting to see if it can be applied to a more permanent application. I am looking forward to the
          Message 4 of 30 , Jan 2, 2012
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            Hi Mathew,

             

            Yep, I agree.  You have the right idea of experimenting to see if it can be applied to a more permanent application.  I am looking forward to the adventure.

             

            Cheers  Bill

          • Matthew Pitts
            Bill, Isn t that what Ham Radio is about, in addition to the ability to communicate when all else fails ? I also have some ideas (and Linux source code) that
            Message 5 of 30 , Jan 2, 2012
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              Bill,

              Isn't that what Ham Radio is about, in addition to the ability to communicate "when all else fails"? I also have some ideas (and Linux source code) that I'd like to try out, but a "stock" router ain't gonna cut it, so I'll be doing some hardware hacking too. ;)

              Matthew Pitts
              N8OHU
              Sent from my Wireless Device

              From: "Bill Erhardt" <k7mt@...>
              Sender: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 20:39:18 -0700
              To: <BPQ32@yahoogroups.com>
              ReplyTo: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [BPQ32] HSMM-MESH

               

              Hi Mathew,

               

              Yep, I agree.  You have the right idea of experimenting to see if it can be applied to a more permanent application.  I am looking forward to the adventure.

               

              Cheers  Bill

            • kt4wo67@gmail.com
              since the modified units operate in the 1.2GHz ham band What units? Where is the info on that? Trip - KT4WO
              Message 6 of 30 , Jan 3, 2012
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                "since the modified units operate in the 1.2GHz ham band "
                 
                What units? Where is the info on that?
                 
                Trip - KT4WO
                 
                 
              • Charles Brabham
                Matthew: I can think of a few legitimate uses for HSMM too, but the list is very short and in the majority of cases there are existing amateur radio systems
                Message 7 of 30 , Jan 3, 2012
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                  Matthew:
                   
                  I can think of a few legitimate uses for HSMM too, but the list is very short and in the majority of cases there are existing amateur radio systems that will do the same thing - much better - with less expense and complexity.
                   
                  It literally boils down to a solution desperately searching for some kind of problem to address. This desperation has created some humerous moments, like the time I was told about an amateur radio HSMM network that was going to provide national coverage. - I've heard that one several times, believe it or not, and I always get a giggle out of the cluelessness it highlights.
                   
                  Laws of Physics or Economics? - They have no jurisdiction over imaginary HSMM applications!    ;-)
                   
                  The fact is that HSMM is an obscure offshoot of amateur radio that revolves around experimentation and discussion. It's great for those who would far rather 'imagine' than actually 'do' something. There are rare instances where a determined individual has demonstrated some practical bent with HSMM technology - but so far mobody has demonstrated a practical use for HSMM that does an amater radio job that is generally recognized as being needed to be done, and does it with less expense and complexity than that of existing systems. This has literally never occurred.
                   
                  HSMM lost the popularity contest, so to speak, quite some time ago. After several years of the ARRL utilizing all of its considerable resources to promote and hype the ARRL HSMM group out the wazoo in every issue of QST, the amateur radio community responded ( where they bothered to respond at all ) with a great big yawn. Then one day the ARRL HSMM group was mysteriously no longer there, dead without even a whimper. Needless to say, the strident ARRL HSMM hype in QST evaporated at the same time.
                   
                  There is a lesson there for those who 'imagine' that HSMM is suddenly going to become relevant today on the say-so of a few disgruntled enthusiasts.
                   
                  Calls to create more infrastructure to fail for emcom use with HSMM systems are not going to go very far, as the smart money on emcom today is to back up infrastructure that tends to fail, not attempt to develop systems that ( Duh! ) require more of it.
                   
                  Mobile, flexible, ad-hoc systems that can pop up anywhere at a moments notice by utilizing software and methods that amateurs are already coversant with - and do not have a steep learning curve associated with them - are recognized as being most effective and most useful in an actual emergency. This pretty well leaves HSMM's emcom usefulness on the same 'imaginary' level that characterises HSMM's usefulness in a general sense.
                   
                  In your reply, you stated that you could think of  "a number" of amateur radio uses for HSMM. Then you went on to note two... VOIP links are the only application that you could suggest with confidence - but exactly how many amateurs do you see going to all of that additional expense and complication when they can just use the internet for VOIP linking?
                   
                  If you are not limiting yourself to VOIP, there are existing repeater linking systems that do a much better job, on a much larger scale, with much less expense and complexity. If we put on our thinking caps for just a moment and realize that most repeater linking is done to cover relatively long distances, one must wonder at the thinking that would seriously suggest SHF radios for that kind of application.
                   
                  Once again:
                  Laws of Physics or Economics? - They have no jurisdiction over imaginary HSMM applications!  ;-)
                   
                  The VOIP repeater links actually in use are generally done via the internet crutch in order to realistically hope to cover the distances involved. thus setting back amateur radio repeater linking by decades. Progress in actual amateur radio technology is thus retarded, not advanced by the alleged 'advance' of VOIP linking.
                   
                  So we are still waiting for a single practical demonstration of something both useful and desired - that HSMM can do better, cheaper and simpler than existing amateur radio systems.
                   
                  By "practical demonstration" I mean something that a significant number of amateurs have found to be useful and successful. - Not the rare exception to the rule that may exist through the fevered clambering of an ingrown sub-community of frustrated cranks.
                   
                  I suppose John Lennon must the be patron saint of HSMM.
                   
                  Imagine...
                   
                  You have to be good at imagining in order to be a HSMM enthusiast - as the practical applications are simply not there.
                   
                   
                  73 DE Charles, N5PVL
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 8:43 PM
                  Subject: Re: [BPQ32] HSMM-MESH

                   

                  Charles,

                  I can think of a number of them; VoIP links, file sharing during emergency operations (not sure if this would actually work), and other things that need larger amounts of bandwidth than what current data modes can offer. Power output can be boosted with amplifiers, since the modified units operate in the 1.2GHz ham band and they can be fitted with directional antennas if needed. I'm going to be buying a few of these myself and testing them at various Emcomm events here in Ohio this year.

                  Matthew Pitts
                  N8OHU

                  Sent from my Wireless Device

                • Andre
                  ... hmm, what existing amateur radio system would be better simpler and cheaper to link my node to the one 7 miles away? gmsk modems are to slow, max 19k2
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jan 3, 2012
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                    Op 3-1-2012 16:05, Charles Brabham schreef:
                     
                    So we are still waiting for a single practical demonstration of something both useful and desired - that HSMM can do better, cheaper and simpler than existing amateur radio systems.
                     
                    hmm, what existing amateur radio system would be better simpler and cheaper to link my node to the one 7 miles away?
                    gmsk modems are to slow, max 19k2 without needing wide band radios, about 614k with wideband data radios.
                    1.2 Mbit psk is 100% homebrewing, not very simple but admitingly a very good state of art system.
                    internet linking is not a hamradio system.
                    hamnet is expencive.

                    hmm, running out of options fast.

                    73 Andre PE1RDW
                  • Randy
                    This just a blinds mans two cents worth. if we did have the hsm system working yea would be great, but not many people are going to have the tower hight to put
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jan 3, 2012
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                      This just a blinds mans two cents worth.
                      if we did have the hsm system working yea would be great, but not many people are going to have the tower hight to put up a dish anttenna, might would be able to use some beams but range with dish would better.
                      and the time it would take to get the systems alined would be much more time. sence a small movement could misaline the dish.
                      I think for a mile or so range, would be good but if that close run a person over onbike,horse,car or foot would be much better.
                      If used in a big city with tall buildings might be great,I would love to have one from my home about 2miles from local medical center so could reboot the system or remote use the setup.for testing.
                      kf4cmj
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Andre
                      Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 9:37 AM
                      Subject: Re: [BPQ32] HSMM-MESH

                       

                      Op 3-1-2012 16:05, Charles Brabham schreef:

                       
                      So we are still waiting for a single practical demonstration of something both useful and desired - that HSMM can do better, cheaper and simpler than existing amateur radio systems.

                       
                      hmm, what existing amateur radio system would be better simpler and cheaper to link my node to the one 7 miles away?
                      gmsk modems are to slow, max 19k2 without needing wide band radios, about 614k with wideband data radios.
                      1.2 Mbit psk is 100% homebrewing, not very simple but admitingly a very good state of art system.
                      internet linking is not a hamradio system.
                      hamnet is expencive.

                      hmm, running out of options fast.

                      73 Andre PE1RDW

                    • Clayton Brantley
                      Bill:  I changed the node ids to reflect your call and they both have the generic password of admin . You may change that password in the setup screen.  The
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jan 3, 2012
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                        Bill:  I changed the node ids to reflect your call and they both have the generic password of "admin".
                        You may change that password in the setup screen.  The generic user name is "root".

                        They are in a box with your name on them and will ship ASAP.

                        73 Clayton N4EV


                        From: Bill Erhardt <k7mt@...>
                        To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 8:52 PM
                        Subject: RE: [BPQ32] HSMM-MESH

                         
                        Ok Clayton,
                         
                        Wells Fargo Cashiers Check will be sent tomorrow..
                         
                        Bill


                      • Matthew Pitts
                        Charles, Anything that relies on the Internet is at risk of failing in an emergency; any technology that relies on the Internet for a significant part of its
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jan 3, 2012
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                          Charles,

                          Anything that relies on the Internet is at risk of failing in an emergency; any technology that relies on the Internet for a significant part of its functionality is next to useless in such a situation. Sure, you can do "drag and drop file-sharing" with D-Star, for example, but how much does the Icom ID-1(the only high-speed D-Star radio at this time) cost compared to a wireless router? I would have thought that the very phrase that makes up HSMM would have given you a clue as to what sorts of thing could use it; of course, you think that current ham technology (or the Internet) can do it better with bandwidth limited modes. The only thing that might come close is ATV, but that's not usable everywhere in the US; HSMM-MESH can do the streaming video and audio that could show the conditions at a given emergency shelter, or a disaster site like a train derailment without interfering with Federal Agency communications devices, etc. Oh well, it's my money and time that I'm wasting, if it doesn't catch on here, or it could be the best thing that came along for this area; who can say?

                          Matthew Pitts
                          N8OHU

                          Sent from my Wireless Device
                        • Matthew Pitts
                          Sorry; that should have been the 2.4 GHz ham band. Matthew Pitts N8OHU Sent from my Wireless Device ... From: Sender: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jan 3, 2012
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                            Sorry; that should have been the 2.4 GHz ham band.

                            Matthew Pitts
                            N8OHU
                            Sent from my Wireless Device

                            From: <kt4wo67@...>
                            Sender: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 09:57:12 -0500
                            To: <BPQ32@yahoogroups.com>
                            ReplyTo: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [BPQ32] Re: HSMM-MESH

                             

                            "since the modified units operate in the 1.2GHz ham band "
                             
                            What units? Where is the info on that?
                             
                            Trip - KT4WO
                             
                             
                          • Jerry
                            Clayton what models were these.. And Firmware versions.. Could you save the firmware backup and send out to others and they could change their callsigns..
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jan 3, 2012
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                              Clayton  what models were these.. And Firmware versions..

                               

                              Could you save the firmware backup and send out to others and they could change their callsigns.. might help others get one setup.. What ya think???

                              Just a thought

                               

                              73 jerry

                               

                              From: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BPQ32@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clayton Brantley
                              Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 11:42 AM
                              To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [BPQ32] HSMM-MESH

                               

                               

                              Bill:  I changed the node ids to reflect your call and they both have the generic password of "admin".

                              You may change that password in the setup screen.  The generic user name is "root".

                               

                              They are in a box with your name on them and will ship ASAP.

                               

                              73 Clayton N4EV

                               


                              From: Bill Erhardt <k7mt@...>
                              To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 8:52 PM
                              Subject: RE: [BPQ32] HSMM-MESH

                               

                              Ok Clayton,

                               

                              Wells Fargo Cashiers Check will be sent tomorrow..

                               

                              Bill

                               

                            • Bill Erhardt
                              Hi Clayton, Wells Fargo Cashier check is on the way. I mailed it around noon MST. Weather is so nice in Montana today (50 degree s) that I started up the ole
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jan 3, 2012
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                                Hi Clayton,

                                 

                                Wells Fargo Cashier check is on the way. I mailed it around noon MST. 

                                 

                                Weather is so nice in Montana today (50 degree’s) that I started up the ole Yamaha XJ-750 Maxim and went for a nice 50 mile ride around town and did all my business.  Ye Ha.

                                 

                                I also did my monthly Pactor III test through KE7XO on 30 Meters and noticed when I linked in that it is using HSMM-MESH !!!!!!  I never noticed that before on that PMBO.

                                 

                                Bill K7MT

                              • Clayton Brantley
                                The nodes are WRT54G, older versions.  Look at the HSMM web site:  http://www.hsmm-mesh.org for all the info. Stay away from ANY WRT54 later than ver 4.0 as
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jan 3, 2012
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                                  The nodes are WRT54G, older versions.  Look at the HSMM web site:  http://www.hsmm-mesh.org for all the info.

                                  Stay away from ANY WRT54 later than ver 4.0 as they do not have the right chips and memory combination.

                                  Clayton N4EV


                                  From: Jerry <n9lya@...>
                                  To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 3:59 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [BPQ32] HSMM-MESH

                                   
                                  Clayton  what models were these.. And Firmware versions..
                                   
                                  Could you save the firmware backup and send out to others and they could change their callsigns.. might help others get one setup.. What ya think???

                                  Just a thought
                                   
                                  73 jerry
                                   
                                  From: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BPQ32@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clayton Brantley
                                  Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 11:42 AM
                                  To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [BPQ32] HSMM-MESH
                                   
                                   
                                  Bill:  I changed the node ids to reflect your call and they both have the generic password of "admin".
                                  You may change that password in the setup screen.  The generic user name is "root".
                                   
                                  They are in a box with your name on them and will ship ASAP.
                                   
                                  73 Clayton N4EV
                                   

                                  From: Bill Erhardt <k7mt@...>
                                  To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 8:52 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [BPQ32] HSMM-MESH
                                   
                                  Ok Clayton,
                                   
                                  Wells Fargo Cashiers Check will be sent tomorrow..
                                   
                                  Bill
                                   


                                • Jerry
                                  Thanks Clayton.. I was planning on using my wrt54GLs V 1.1 I have a few, they are still in production… They are the same as the WRT54G and GS V4 73 Jerry
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jan 3, 2012
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                                    Thanks Clayton.. I was planning on using my wrt54GLs V 1.1 I have a few, they are still in production…  They are the same as the WRT54G and GS V4

                                     

                                    73 Jerry N9LYA

                                     

                                    From: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BPQ32@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clayton Brantley
                                    Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 6:27 PM
                                    To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [BPQ32] HSMM-MESH

                                     

                                    The nodes are WRT54G, older versions.  Look at the HSMM web site:  http://www.hsmm-mesh.org for all the info.

                                     

                                    Stay away from ANY WRT54 later than ver 4.0 as they do not have the right chips and memory combination.

                                     

                                    Clayton N4EV

                                     


                                    From: Jerry <n9lya@...>
                                    To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 3:59 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [BPQ32] HSMM-MESH

                                     

                                    Clayton  what models were these.. And Firmware versions..

                                     

                                    Could you save the firmware backup and send out to others and they could change their callsigns.. might help others get one setup.. What ya think???

                                    Just a thought

                                     

                                    73 jerry

                                     

                                    From: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BPQ32@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clayton Brantley
                                    Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 11:42 AM
                                    To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [BPQ32] HSMM-MESH

                                     

                                     

                                    Bill:  I changed the node ids to reflect your call and they both have the generic password of "admin".

                                    You may change that password in the setup screen.  The generic user name is "root".

                                     

                                    They are in a box with your name on them and will ship ASAP.

                                     

                                    73 Clayton N4EV

                                     


                                    From: Bill Erhardt <k7mt@...>
                                    To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 8:52 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [BPQ32] HSMM-MESH

                                     

                                    Ok Clayton,

                                     

                                    Wells Fargo Cashiers Check will be sent tomorrow..

                                     

                                    Bill

                                     

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