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Re: Unattended ops

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  • kt4wo67@gmail.com
    Rick,,,, Let me also say...I cant tell you how EXCITED about Winmor I am!!! It seems to be working GREAT..and was needed!! Altho I am mostly a KtoK op..I have
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 2, 2010
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      Rick,,,,

      Let me also say...I cant tell you how EXCITED about
      Winmor I am!!!
      It seems to be working GREAT..and was needed!!
      Altho I am mostly a KtoK op..I have been wanting
      a mode that was low cost that could/would work well
      enuff to use on BPQ-HF links.
      Winmor seems to fit the bill well!
      I have ran Packet on HF for years, off and on..and
      have always been discouraged..but Winmor has changed that!!

      Again, Tnx for all the hard work and the great software!!!!!

      Trip - KT4WO

      --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Muething" <rmuething@...> wrote:
      >
      > Trip,
      >
      >
      >
      > Your comments well put. They bring up some important points and necessary
      > operating practices.
      >
      >
      >
      > Here is my feelings as developer of WINMOR and what we recommend for RMS
      > WINMOR and RMS Express.
      >
      >
      >
      > 1) RMS Express is a single user client.It can't initiate a connection
      > automatically. For WINMOR it has a busy detector to indicate and warn the
      > user that a channel is busy and while not perfect this works pretty well and
      > will be improved over time.
      >
      > 2) RMS WINMOR never initiates a connection.it is a server and only
      > listens. It can (and should) be set up to use the busy detector (same as 1)
      > above) to block the response to a connect request if the channel wasn't
      > clear just before (500 ms) the start of the connect request. This is set by
      > enabling Busy Lock. It is not always enabled because MARS operations don't
      > want it. Using busy lock will go a long way (again not perfect) to
      > eliminating interference due to the "hidden transmitter" effect. (The
      > station calling the RMS WINMOR thinks the channel is clear but the RMS
      > WINMOR hears channel activity that the calling station can't).
      >
      > 3) I think these same mechanism can and probably should also be used
      > in BPQ WINMOR and I think John has it set up that way but I am not sure.
      >
      >
      >
      > While it might be nice to put all the WINMOR and Pactor forwarding (auto or
      > otherwise ) in the auto forward sub band it is not practical.these are very
      > small bands (e.g. 5 KHz on 40 meter) and wide band signals (e.g. P3) MUST go
      > in the sub band since it is over 500 Hz. So what we are requesting for RMS
      > WINMOR stations is that US stations ONLY operate WINMOR's 500 Hz mode and
      > that they stay out of the already crowded auto forward sub bands. This is
      > completely legal since the forwarding is INITIATED by a manned station (e.g.
      > RMS Express) and the band width is <500 Hz.
      >
      >
      >
      > One of the goals of WINMOR was to address this interference issue with
      > features like the busy detector and busy Lock above. I think if a BPQ
      > switch is automatically routing a connection that will initiate a WINMOR
      > connection it should be in the auto forward sub band (it is automatically
      > initiated) and it should be using the busy Lock. Maybe John can chime in on
      > this with his thoughts.
      >
      >
      >
      > I think there are 4 issues here:
      >
      > 1) The law and this has been pretty clearly interpreted for us by FCC
      > lawyers.
      >
      > 2) The ill will that can be created by allowing automatically
      > initiated sessions to interfere even inside the auto forward sub bands.
      >
      > 3) The need to properly train users on proper operating procedures
      > (the most basic.listen first!) and to use tools like the busy detector to
      > minimize the chance of interference to existing QSO. (while the hidden
      > transmitter effect above is real and often quoted I personally think 80+ %
      > of the interference problem is users that either don't listen or don't
      > understand what they are listening for)
      >
      > 4) The need to have sysops properly configure their stations
      > (frequency, busy lock etc) to minimize the chance of interference with other
      > modes.
      >
      >
      >
      > 73,
      >
      >
      > Rick KN6KB
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BPQ32@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      > kt4wo67@...
      > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 7:40 PM
      > To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [BPQ32] Unattended ops
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Let me say this 1st...I am not trying to start something!!
      > Nor is this is a flame.
      >
      > IMHO..and thats what it is... "attended station" is not just
      > being at home,,,, Asleep-Mowing the yard,,,clearing snow..etc..
      > "attended" is sitting at the radio.
      >
      > I am already hearing complaints of Winmor stations QRM'ing
      > ongoing QSO's..and have been QRM'ed myself on 80 meters.
      >
      > We are creating enemies by running Winmor outside of the
      > auto-bands "unattended"
      >
      > I think Winmor(in what ever use, BPQ, RMS, etc) is going to
      > be a GREAT mode and will be used alot, but as with unattended
      > Pactor stations outside the auto-subbands, it makes for alot
      > of bad press.
      >
      > I support ALL digi modes and think they ALL have a strong
      > future in AR...but QRM is something nobody likes.
      >
      > My plans are to set my Winmor/BPQ station up and leave running
      > 24/7(once I find a used radio to dedicate to it).
      >
      > This is not a bash on Pactor,Winmor,Packet,RTTY,BPSK31,ALE400
      > or ANY MODE!!!
      >
      > I just dont want our progress to be marred(sp?) by bad press,,,
      > and...We are already getting a little...and it will get
      > much worse as more stations run 24/7 outside the auto sub-bands.
      >
      > Please do not flame me for this... Just tell me what ya'll think.
      >
      > Trip - KT4WO
      > kt4wo67@gmail. <mailto:kt4wo67%40gmail.com> com
      >
      > Member of Winmor and BPQ32 groups.
      >
      >
      >
      > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2707 - Release Date: 03/02/10
      > 02:34:00
      >
    • abertheaume
      I have to ask, Given that Winmor forwarding is still in its infancy and all, I would think it doesn t really have wide spread use yet. I could be wrong. That
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 2, 2010
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        I have to ask,
        Given that Winmor forwarding is still in its infancy and all, I would think it doesn't really have wide spread use yet. I could be wrong.

        That said, where is all this "unattended" forwarding taking place, on what frequencies? How does one even identify if it is "unattended" for that matter. Perhaps somebody is griping just to gripe. I think that could really happen in the ham world, again, I could be wrong...hihi

        Your point about collecting in a certain area of the band is valid though. We certainly don't want to be jumping on what is traditionaly the PSK frequencies or the packet net frequencies for example.
        73
        Art, N9ZZK


        --- In BPQ32@yahoogroups.com, kt4wo67@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > Let me say this 1st...I am not trying to start something!!
        > Nor is this is a flame.
        >
        >
        > IMHO..and thats what it is... "attended station" is not just
        > being at home,,,, Asleep-Mowing the yard,,,clearing snow..etc..
        > "attended" is sitting at the radio.
        >
        > I am already hearing complaints of Winmor stations QRM'ing
        > ongoing QSO's..and have been QRM'ed myself on 80 meters.
        >
        > We are creating enemies by running Winmor outside of the
        > auto-bands "unattended"
        >
        > I think Winmor(in what ever use, BPQ, RMS, etc) is going to
        > be a GREAT mode and will be used alot, but as with unattended
        > Pactor stations outside the auto-subbands, it makes for alot
        > of bad press.
        >
        > I support ALL digi modes and think they ALL have a strong
        > future in AR...but QRM is something nobody likes.
        >
        > My plans are to set my Winmor/BPQ station up and leave running
        > 24/7(once I find a used radio to dedicate to it).
        >
        > This is not a bash on Pactor,Winmor,Packet,RTTY,BPSK31,ALE400
        > or ANY MODE!!!
        >
        > I just dont want our progress to be marred(sp?) by bad press,,,
        > and...We are already getting a little...and it will get
        > much worse as more stations run 24/7 outside the auto sub-bands.
        >
        > Please do not flame me for this... Just tell me what ya'll think.
        >
        > Trip - KT4WO
        > kt4wo67@...
        >
        > Member of Winmor and BPQ32 groups.
        >
      • D.Calder
        I think the Winmor discussion, should stay on that reflector. MY Opinion. 73 Dave n4zkf n4zkf@n4zkf.com www.n4zkf.com From: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 3, 2010
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          I think the Winmor discussion, should stay on that reflector.

           

          MY Opinion.

           

           

          73 Dave n4zkf

          n4zkf@...

          www.n4zkf.com

           

           

           

           

          From: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BPQ32@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kt4wo67@...
          Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 7:40 PM
          To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [BPQ32] Unattended ops

           

           


          Let me say this 1st...I am not trying to start something!!
          Nor is this is a flame.

          IMHO..and thats what it is... "attended station" is not just
          being at home,,,, Asleep-Mowing the yard,,,clearing snow..etc..
          "attended" is sitting at the radio.

          I am already hearing complaints of Winmor stations QRM'ing
          ongoing QSO's..and have been QRM'ed myself on 80 meters.

          We are creating enemies by running Winmor outside of the
          auto-bands "unattended"

          I think Winmor(in what ever use, BPQ, RMS, etc) is going to
          be a GREAT mode and will be used alot, but as with unattended
          Pactor stations outside the auto-subbands, it makes for alot
          of bad press.

          I support ALL digi modes and think they ALL have a strong
          future in AR...but QRM is something nobody likes.

          My plans are to set my Winmor/BPQ station up and leave running
          24/7(once I find a used radio to dedicate to it).

          This is not a bash on Pactor,Winmor,Packet,RTTY,BPSK31,ALE400
          or ANY MODE!!!

          I just dont want our progress to be marred(sp?) by bad press,,,
          and...We are already getting a little...and it will get
          much worse as more stations run 24/7 outside the auto sub-bands.

          Please do not flame me for this... Just tell me what ya'll think.

          Trip - KT4WO
          kt4wo67@...

          Member of Winmor and BPQ32 groups.

        • Art Bertheaume
          Dave, We have been testing BPQ32 Mail forward using winmor for several days now and also using winmor in FEC mode which at this time, only BPQ32 is capable of
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 3, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Dave,
            We have been testing BPQ32 Mail forward using winmor for several days now and also using winmor in FEC mode which at this time, only BPQ32 is capable of doing.
            73
            Art, N9ZZK
            --- On Wed, 3/3/10, D.Calder <n4zkf@...> wrote:

            From: D.Calder <n4zkf@...>
            Subject: RE: [BPQ32] Unattended ops
            To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, March 3, 2010, 4:11 AM

             

            I think the Winmor discussion, should stay on that reflector.

             

            MY Opinion.

             

             

            73 Dave n4zkf

            n4zkf@n4zkf. com

            www.n4zkf.com

             

             

             

             

            From: BPQ32@yahoogroups. com [mailto:BPQ32@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of kt4wo67@gmail. com
            Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 7:40 PM
            To: BPQ32@yahoogroups. com
            Subject: [BPQ32] Unattended ops

             

             


            Let me say this 1st...I am not trying to start something!!
            Nor is this is a flame.

            IMHO..and thats what it is... "attended station" is not just
            being at home,,,, Asleep-Mowing the yard,,,clearing snow..etc..
            "attended" is sitting at the radio.

            I am already hearing complaints of Winmor stations QRM'ing
            ongoing QSO's..and have been QRM'ed myself on 80 meters.

            We are creating enemies by running Winmor outside of the
            auto-bands "unattended"

            I think Winmor(in what ever use, BPQ, RMS, etc) is going to
            be a GREAT mode and will be used alot, but as with unattended
            Pactor stations outside the auto-subbands, it makes for alot
            of bad press.

            I support ALL digi modes and think they ALL have a strong
            future in AR...but QRM is something nobody likes.

            My plans are to set my Winmor/BPQ station up and leave running
            24/7(once I find a used radio to dedicate to it).

            This is not a bash on Pactor,Winmor, Packet,RTTY, BPSK31,ALE400
            or ANY MODE!!!

            I just dont want our progress to be marred(sp?) by bad press,,,
            and...We are already getting a little...and it will get
            much worse as more stations run 24/7 outside the auto sub-bands.

            Please do not flame me for this... Just tell me what ya'll think.

            Trip - KT4WO
            kt4wo67@gmail. com

            Member of Winmor and BPQ32 groups.

          • D.Calder
            Yea, I know. I have been watching. (and hearing) From: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BPQ32@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Art Bertheaume Sent: Wednesday, March
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 3, 2010
            • 0 Attachment

              Yea, I know. I have been watching. (and hearing)

               

              From: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BPQ32@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Art Bertheaume
              Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 5:17 AM
              To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [BPQ32] Unattended ops

               

               

              Dave,

              We have been testing BPQ32 Mail forward using winmor for several days now and also using winmor in FEC mode which at this time, only BPQ32 is capable of doing.

              73

              Art, N9ZZK

              --- On Wed, 3/3/10, D.Calder <n4zkf@...> wrote:


              From: D.Calder <n4zkf@...>
              Subject: RE: [BPQ32] Unattended ops
              To: BPQ32@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, March 3, 2010, 4:11 AM

               

              I think the Winmor discussion, should stay on that reflector.

               

              MY Opinion.

               

               

              73 Dave n4zkf

              n4zkf@n4zkf. com

              www.n4zkf.com

               

               

               

               

              From: BPQ32@yahoogroups. com [mailto:BPQ32@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of kt4wo67@gmail. com
              Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 7:40 PM
              To: BPQ32@yahoogroups. com
              Subject: [BPQ32] Unattended ops

               

               


              Let me say this 1st...I am not trying to start something!!
              Nor is this is a flame.

              IMHO..and thats what it is... "attended station" is not just
              being at home,,,, Asleep-Mowing the yard,,,clearing snow..etc..
              "attended" is sitting at the radio.

              I am already hearing complaints of Winmor stations QRM'ing
              ongoing QSO's..and have been QRM'ed myself on 80 meters.

              We are creating enemies by running Winmor outside of the
              auto-bands "unattended"

              I think Winmor(in what ever use, BPQ, RMS, etc) is going to
              be a GREAT mode and will be used alot, but as with unattended
              Pactor stations outside the auto-subbands, it makes for alot
              of bad press.

              I support ALL digi modes and think they ALL have a strong
              future in AR...but QRM is something nobody likes.

              My plans are to set my Winmor/BPQ station up and leave running
              24/7(once I find a used radio to dedicate to it).

              This is not a bash on Pactor,Winmor, Packet,RTTY, BPSK31,ALE400
              or ANY MODE!!!

              I just dont want our progress to be marred(sp?) by bad press,,,
              and...We are already getting a little...and it will get
              much worse as more stations run 24/7 outside the auto sub-bands.

              Please do not flame me for this... Just tell me what ya'll think.

              Trip - KT4WO
              kt4wo67@gmail. com

              Member of Winmor and BPQ32 groups.

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